Gay paedophile comments could see GP investigated
Wednesday 17th March 2010, 2:30PM GMT.
A GUERNSEY doctor faces an investigation for arguing that lowering the gay age of consent would promote paedophilia.
Islander Martin Gavet has made a formal complaint about GP Paul Williams to the General Medical Council and more than 350 people have now joined a Facebook campaign group set up by Mr Gavet.
In a letter in the Guernsey Press, Dr Williams said: ‘Most homosexuals are not paedophiles but they do represent a very high proportion of convicted paedophiles – that is a fact.’
Dr Williams based his views on statistics in Fight for the Family, a book Mr Gavet claimed has now been widely discredited.
Mr Gavet, who is gay, said Dr Williams should be struck off because, as a GP, he ought to understand the difficulties faced by homosexuals.
‘Gay men and women are at higher risk of suicide and that can be largely attributed to prejudice. As a doctor he has a duty to protect the welfare of patients that are in a vulnerable state.’
In his letter, Dr Williams made it clear his comments were his personal views but Mr Gavet claimed he had breached GMC guidelines by publicising them and identifying himself because his patients would be able to read them.
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Well done to Martin Gavet to stand up and be counted. A Doctor really should know better than to promote as ‘fact’ something that is demonstrably not the case.
I look forward to Dr Williams defending ‘Fight for the Family’ in front of the GMC, and trust he has as as great courage of his convictions as Mr Gavet.
Somehow, I doubt the GMC will be impressed.
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Well the Doctors argument may have been badly crafted and misinformed, but as a concerned parent I would say that the issue has nothing to do with homophobia.
This isn’t about the majority of gay people who are decent contributors to the community, it is about those individuals who prey on the innocent.
The issue for me is that if this change in anyway increases the risk of those who seek to take advantage of teenagers who maybe aware of their sexuality, but are still children really, then we need to be cautious. As until they are mature enough to take responsibility for themselves, it is our job to protect them.
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@Concerned Parent
‘Misinformed’ does not do the Dr’s ‘facts’ justice. They are simply not true.
If he had written that
“Jews… represent a very high proportion of convicted paedophiles” (completely untrue) – would you not consider that anti-Semitic?
So why is the same claim made about homosexuals not homophobic?
Yes, the issue of people who ‘prey on the innocent’ is very valid concern – but its got no more to do with homosexuality than heterosexuality – and to purport that it is is a lie, beneath the dignity of a Doctor.
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So much for freedom of speach. Is Dr. Williams not able to share his views without people demanding his head on a platter?? Take his views to task, dismiss them out of sight but for the sake of humanity do not undo him for being bold enough to share with us his thoughts.
As for calling for his job, that is totally out of order too.
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It’s a fact, get on with life… He’s a Christian too.
Also, there’s another Facebook group in support for Dr Williams, which is gaining members by the hour, let’s hope it over takes Mr Gavet’s!
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I wish to stand up as a representative of all the civilized human beings on Guernsey who have been outraged by some of the disgustingly prejudiced views spat out recently.
Once again, so called church goers ignore the teachings of Jesus. Sitting in church is not enough my friends, Jesus taught as one of his main tenets, loving thy neighbour. Gay people may appear unfamiliar in their lifestyle choices to some, just like the Samaritan to Jews in Roman times but we have been taught that God loves all his creatures. I would ask that you treat all people as equals and leave the decisions on what is right and wrong to God on judgment day. Everyone is your neighbour so help them all to live a happy life.
Racists actively used the Bible to quote passages that seemed to point to God favouring whites. If you used such arguments now you would be seen as an ignorant bigot. Brave men like Martin Luther King died to overcome prejudice to let freedom reign. Let us not stand in the way of equality again my fellow human beings.
One additional obvious point to be made is that heterosexuals are sexually attracted to the same sex, gay people are attracted to the same sex and what we term paedophiles are attracted to children, their attraction often not differentiating between sexes. Homosexuality can not just be lumped in with paedophilia in an ignorant manner.
Let freedom reign. The sun never set on so glorious a human achievement. (Nelson Mandela)
Martin Luther King – Please add in straight and gay…
“And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, “Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!”
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concerned parent.. until you can prove that teenage boys are anymore prone to attacks from older gay males than teenage girls are from older straight males then I suggest you are wrong in your statement.
People love to state how they aren’t homophobic because they have gay friends and such like, but your quasi-agreement with the doctor’s stance (which is wrong btw) then you’re displaying a more subtle and seemingly socially acceptable form of prejudice which is called heterosexism. Deeming straight people more likely to be less deviant than gays!
40% of paedophiles are women, should young men have safeguards written into the law to protect them from all women?
If you had suggested that the age of consent for everyone was increased to 18 then your comments would be valid, currently they’re prejudiced and thus wrong!
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ConcernedParent it has everything to do with homophobia and you are showing yourself to be homophobic.
Your children are no more at risk from gay predators than from straight predators – and that is a real, hard fact.
Unless, of course, you have boys who are under the care of priests within the Roman Catholic church. Now that really would be a reason for concern.
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Are innocent males any more vunerable to sexual preditors than innocent females?
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Umm by the way, so what if they are paedophiles. Simply being a paedophile is nothing to be ashamed of… it’s a sexuality, not a crime. Sorry to burst the bubble. Also, in my experience, a good proportion of homosexual paedophiles ARE also attracted to men.
What’s more, as for this “preying on the innocent” stuff, let’s not forget that many “convictions” are for offenses not even involving contact with a child. I think the rationale is that since we have ascertained that paedophiles are some sort of ticking time bomb, any minor indication of their sexual interest is sufficient to launch into a full blooded investigation. I won’t go into it now, but it’s really unbelievable what can get somebody “convicted as a paedophile”. Don’t imagine that any preying has gone on in a large proportion of cases.
Bottom line: if you want to be fair, you have to accept *some* element of risk! sorry…
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This is crazy, alright maybe he shouldn’t have made the comments but for goodness sake, we live somewhere that allows for freedom of speech and yet this man wants Dr Williams to lose his job for making a comment?
What’s next? A bank manager makes an argument against what the majority wants and there will be uproar because gay people bank with his bank?!
If you don’t like Dr. William’s comments, don’t go to him as your doctor – simple. Why should he lose his job? He’s a darn good doctor.
For the record, I have absolutely nothing against gay people and think that people in same sex relationships should have equal rights to straight people but I don’t go round looking to get people fired for voicing opinions that I don’t agree with.
If anything, perhaps the age of consent should be raised for straight people as opposed to lowered for gay people – governments rattle on about teen sex and increases in STD rates and teen pregnancy (although yes i’m aware a same sex realtionship will not result in a baby) but want 16 to be the age for all, why not 17 for all? Be inbetween the two, try to deter kids a little
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Dr Williams is entitled to his own opinion, as is everyone. What concerns me is how he decided to promote his own views in the local paper. Doctors have a massive day to day responsibility of care and have to adhere to a very strict code of practice, set out by the GMC. He says at the end of his letter that he treats every one of his patients fairly and without prejudice. How can we believe that when he has made his opinion on this matter so clear and brutally honest? He has acted in an irresponsible way, letting his emotions and beliefs cloud his professional judgement and in making his opinion available in the public domain, has quite frankly gone against the GMC guidelines when it comes to expressing ones personal beliefs to patients. I just hope Dr. Williams can do something to regain some of the trust and respect he seems to have lost from members of the public and, I would imagine, some of his patients.
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Sex is sex, whether it is between a man and a woman, two men, or two women. Why have different ages of consent for different orientations?
Nothing negative can come of lowering the age of consent for homosexuals – most people, if they want sex, will have it whether it is legal or not – and besides, at least it won’t lead to a rise in teen pregnancies.
There seems to be quite a number of Guernsey residents that need to be dragged in to the 21st Century.
A person is a person, whether gay or straight – imposing restrictions is no better than racist, relgious or age-based persecution
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Plus, isn’t a doctor supposed to deal with all patients, regardless of prejudice?
If I were gay, I wouldn’t feel comfortable seeing a doctor who was openly homophobic.
Actually, even thought I am not gay, I wouldn’t feel comfortable seeing such a doctor.
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Oh my God! What is this island coming to!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, what ever happened to freedom of speech?
I think some people are just little bit sensitive, i dont think one little commenet should end someones hard earned career… that is just cruel!
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Dr Williams is entitled to his view, and I am pleased to remind anyone that is on his books that islanders are entitled to choose their own GP.
I truly emplore anyone that has Dr Williams as their GP call the surgery and ask for your medical records which they will provide you with.
You can then register with another doctor, and I think it would be in your best interests to register at another surgery.
Dr Williams is not fit to practise and it does not need the GMC to strike him off here in Guernsey where reputation can mean everything.
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N
YOU WHAT?????
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Dr Williams is my GP and he is also my chosen GP to my three children.
I am happy with his ability as a medical practicioner and will continue be be a patient of his as long as he continues to be a GP in Guernsey.
I am not interested in his views on ages of consent (although I am not homophobic and support any decision in favour of gay people) – all I am interested in is his ability as a doctor, which nobody can call into question over this. He is a good doctor and does not deserve to be struck off
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I think there are two cases here that we need to differentiate on:
- the first is his allegation linking homosexuality with paedophilia. When making serious allegations (and in our society it doesn’t get much more serious than paedophilia) one should take care to back such allegations up with credible evidence. The more serious the allegation, the more credible the evidence should be.
This particular area of Dr Williams’ letter is not an issue of free speech or opinion as Dr Williams presents this allegation as scientific fact (not opinion or based on religious texts) based on statistics that are out of date and dubious at best.
If this is proven by the GMC then he does hav a case to answer for attempting to mislead the public – although I don’t think he should lose his job over it.
- the second IS an issue of freedom of speech as he also writes expressing his personal opinions based on his religious beliefs. Although upon further reflection I think he could have presented those opinions in a more gracious and less inflammatory tone (it is possible) under the UN Declaration of Human Rights he is entitled to air his opinions, no matter how clumsily presented or odious they might be to others.
John Lee is absolutely right that islanders are free to choose their own GP. I doubt he will find himself without patients though as given the variety of opinions that I’ve read I imagine that he will both gain and lose patients as a result of this episode.
For the record, I am an evangelical Christian who shares Dr Williams religious convictions.
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For the record.
When I was between the ages of thirteen and seventeen I was targeted by at least four homosexual men, one of the approaches was violent. All of these men were over 30 years of age.
Never was I targeted by females other than from my own age group.
It was stated in the article that the doctor based his views on a book entitled ‘Fight for the Family’ which Mr Gavet says has been widely discredited. Is that a fact? And further, was this particular point discredited?
Mr Gavet stated that ‘Gay men and women are at higher risk of suicide and that can be largely attributed to prejudice.’ Where did that come from?
Concerned Islander and Martino.
You both completely missed Concerned Parents point, and read into it your own agenda. If you both feel that gay rights are more important than the protection of minors then you will come up against more opposition than you could imagine.
Should doctor Williams be struck off? What an absolutely preposterous suggestion.
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I’m personally outraged at Martin Gavet’s comments and stance in the local media. Whilst I respect Mr Gavet’s right to his opinion, why does it need to be shoved in our faces with this petulant protest??
Mr Gavet, put your toys back in the pram and jog on.
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Paul Le Page I trust then that you also believe in witches as Dr Williams stated he does a while back!
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@Steven “‘Fight for the Family’ which Mr Gavet says has been widely discredited. Is that a fact? And further, was this particular point discredited?”
Yes – its drivel, written by a non-expert.
The ‘facts’ used to support the claim are provided by a Paul Cameron, who has been expelled by the American Psychological Association (largest professional organization of psychologists in the United State), denounced by the “American Sociological Association [which] officially and publicly states that Paul Cameron is not a sociologist, and condemns his consistent misrepresentation of sociological research” and rebuked by “The Canadian Psychological Association [which] takes the position that Dr. Paul Cameron has consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism”
He’s also been disowned by the Psychology Association in his own state which “formally disassociates itself from the representations and interpretations of scientific literature offered by Dr. Paul Cameron”
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Wow, its no wonder our society has so many problems.
Its clearly not possible to have a view on one issue without all kinds of assumptions being made.
So hey lets all keep our views to ourselves before someone challenges our right to have a job,career life!!
When did Mr Gavets view become more important than anyone elses?
Well done Mr Gavet lets condemn anyone who doesnt hold your view.
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N
I think your comments are valid. A a society we need to understand this natuaral inclination and see what we can do to help people who have such feeling/inclinations from commiting an offence or from ruining a young life.
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N is clearly trying to wind everyone up. I would suggest everyone ignores him and stick to the issue in hand.
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So, it seems to be the thing to have to stand there and listen to gays and their supporters (they being ,”straights with no life of their own” or ex deputies trying to canvas votes for their eventual return to politics ,or the pc busibodies )and yet when someone with an opposite opinion comes forward ,then he gets hounded into the deck .
Dosent seem fair that does it ? and Martin Gavet plus others, have done little for the cause, because it smacks of the truth hurts,to me an opinion from someone who, through his work is more able to observe cause and effect, than a thousand bleeding heart supporters, with an urge to see a group of people claim their so called rights ,it’s got to be asked what about the doctors rights ,this is getting as silly as the (i’m not allowed to call you black but you can call me white, rubbish) as much as you think you have a right to be “gay” then there are others who think you dont, and both you ,and they ,are entitled to your opinion ,or at least until the russians get here you are .
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If only this was the first time Dr. Williams has caused grief by his ill-considered comments made in the public arena. I have kept silent for several years but I have suffered greatly thanks to his actions and it is not just me I would add. I have many friends who I know would like to come out in the open and express their anger including most certainly the person who was told in my presence that she had been Cured by the Devil
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I can’t believe that no one on here has commented on N’s post reading
‘Umm by the way, so what if they are paedophiles. Simply being a paedophile is nothing to be ashamed of… it’s a sexuality, not a crime.’
OMG, sorry what?!!!!! It’s nothing to be ashamed of is it? So it’s ok to molest poor children who are too young and scared to understand what is being inflicted on them?!!!!
Who lie in their beds every night petrified of hearing the footsteps approaching their bedroom.
It’s not sexuality, it’s sick and wrong and if N really thinks it’s not a crime then I think somebody needs to find he/she and lock them away for a very long time!!!!
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
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I understand that the Vatican City has an equal age of consent and that it is 12.
If I’m wrong I’m ready to stand corrected.
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Quote John Lee: “Paul Le Page I trust then that you also believe in witches as Dr Williams stated he does a while back!”
And you don’t? There are loads of covens in the UK alone – why not ask their members if they believe they exist?
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Bemused
I think most people could see that N was trying to wind people up and you bit. However fundamentaly he is right in saying that being a paedophile is not a crime. It is the practice of it that is criminal.
Flying Scott
Discrediting someone does not negate what they may have stated. Many people were discredited from scientific (and religeous) faculties for stating that the earth was not flat.
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John Lee
Witches do exist. I think you may be confused, It’s faries that don’t exist.
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@Bemused….I’ve thought twice about addressing this, as its a major red herring – but ‘paedophilia’ in itself is a psychological condition, not itself a ‘crime’.
Child molestation (physical, or passive as in viewing images) on the other hand is unequivocally a crime – and it is committed by paedophiles, and also hetero- and homo-sexuals…..And mainly by close members of the family (fathers, uncles) or close family friends..
..and to get even more technical, if Doctor Williams knew his stuff, (which he plainly doesn’t) he’d be concerned about hebephilia, (attraction to pubescent or post-pubescent children) not paedophilia, which refers to pre-pubescent children.
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Doug – quite correct – its been 12 since 1929 (unless its teacher/pupil, then its 15)…..
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How often do you hear of young children being preyed upon by old women?
The doctor is right by saying that most paedophiles are homosexual. He actually went out of his way to say that most homosexuals are not.
Most paedophiles are homosexual is true, not most homosexuals are paedophiles.
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Clearly fairies do exist, you only have to scroll up to see that!!
Oh go on call for my imprisonment, how dare I offer humour in such a circumstance!! clearly my cover, as a minister well known for my humour, is blown!!
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Steven,
I doubt history will view Paul Cameron as a latter-day Galileo!
He does not publish his work in peer-reviewed Journals, standard practice for a Scientist.
His ‘Institute’ is him & his son.
In a Court case in which he was involved. the Judge observed that “”Dr. Paul Cameron…has himself made misrepresentations to this Court” and that “There has been no fraud or misrepresentations except by Dr. Cameron”
But if you choose to believe him….that’s up to you!
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FlyingScot – thanks for that. Now I wonder whether any of our Christian commentators may like to comment on the Vatican having an age of consent of 12?
Bill – Please specify the research and where we may access it? So girls having nothing to fear?
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Bill, there has been plenty of horrific stories about women paedophiles recently. The nursery in Plymouth instantly springs to mind.
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@Flying Scott
Nothing that you have written regarding Cameron negates the point he made concerning the majority of paedophiles being homosexual of which Dr. Williams concurred.
However, as I pointed out earlier, my personal experience upholds his claim. You cannot negate a statement by discrediting the person.
@Simon
Your cover as a humorist may be blown, but mine is obviously still intact. ;-)
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I dont see what the problem is with the consent age is anyway, if two guys want to have sex; then let them. There is nothing forcing them to abide by the law, they should, but they don’t have to, no one is going to find out if they do have sex under the age of 18.
In all fairness its not really our business. Its not like there will be any consequences for them like there will be for heterosexuals (i.e pregnancies)
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of course witches exist – they are harmless folk who mess about with plants and stuff, just like they did four hundred years ago. they did no more than that, they do no more than that. meg (of meg and mog) is my favourite witch. some modern witches probably take themselves a bit too seriously, although they do have wonderful hats. witches were never harmful (the odd poisoned apple maybe, but then look at DOCTOR shipman), yet they were slowly burnt alive nevertheless. so shipman (‘he looks a nice man’ said my 6 year old to the TV image) was relatively lucky.
there is no evil, no devil, no god. just us and our imperfections – so lets focus and try understanding more – stop beating on witches and gays and any human cos they’re different.
now, aliens …….. how I hope they absolutley must exist and what a sexual kaleidascope awaits us there! doc williams will have a field day and the diversity teacher has to really earn his corn.
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Paedophile’s prey on children since when have 16 year olds been considered children?. Many may be inmature but they are not children. This is nothing more than homophobia using paedophile’s as a front.
If the concern about lowering the age of consent to 16 for homosexual sex is really about paedophile’s then suely this must be applied to hetrosexuals (and Lesbians) and the age for them raised to 18.
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I hope the General Medical Council throws this ridiculous complaint against a good Medical Practitioner straight into their waste bin.
The GMC’s function is to investigate accusations of medical malpractice,not to throttle a Doctor’s right to express an opinion.
Ruth Frank
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In response to Bills post above,
‘How often do you hear of young children being preyed upon by old women?
The doctor is right by saying that most paedophiles are homosexual.’
What about young girls being preyed upon older men? It’s far more common and nothing to do with homosexuality. It’s so easy to be blinkered with this argument. I know Dr. Williams and he’s always come accross as a nice enough bloke, but as a father of three, I wouldn’t want him as my children’s Gp. If my kids discovered they may be gay when they’re older and needed to talk to someone, if they chose not to speak to their parents then I would want them to get the best and most informed advice. Not made to feel that there was something wrong with them.
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Steven
Thank you for pointing that out but I feel that it’s a subject that people shouldn’t be coy about!!!
At the end of the day people post comments on here and expect to get a reaction and N did, congratulations!!!!
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I’m not surprised at the number of homophobes coming out in this thread under the guise of supporters of “free speech” or opposers of “political correctness”.
Unfortunately Mr Gavet’s complaint to the GMC could turn out to be something of an own goal in this respect. There are going to be a good few deputies with homophobic tendencies (I think I know of at least one) who will be dying for an excuse to vote against this much needed reform without appearing to be homophobes.
So expect some crass and ignorant speeches, along the lines of arapaho’s crass and ignorant posting, from deputies who will eagerly latch onto the complaint against Dr Williams to deflect debate away from the core issue, which is one of human rights, equal rights, the removal of prejudice and doing away with blatant discrimination.
By the way, I have no problem at all with people with extreme religious fundamentalist beliefs being GPs so long as this doesn’t affect the good jobs they are doing. There was a similar debate in the UK over teachers who belong to the BNP and I have no problem with this either as long as these people don’t bring any racial prejudices they may have into the classroom.
The problem arises only when, for example, a BNP history teacher starts starts to use his lessons to teach that the holocaust didn’t actually happen. The problem arises, in another hypothetical case, only when a fundamentalist doctor tells his/her gay patient that they are living an ungodly life.
I don’t know anything at all about the relationships between Dr Williams and his patients, and as I say, I’m disappointed that the complaint was made against him at this time, simply because it is allowing the homophobes to deflecting debate away from the real issue.
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Steven,
The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’. How do you know your assailants were homosexual, and not paedophile?
Why do you place any credence in a ‘report’ prepared by someone who has been denounced as a charlatan and a fraud by his professional bodies?
Show me a report from a respected peer reviewed journal – like the Lancet – and I will take your claims seriously.
And before someone brings up a similar report by ‘Dr Timothy J Dailey PhD’…you might want to ask yourself what he is a ‘Doctor’ of – his PhD was in Religion.
Here’s some stuff from ‘Peer reviewed’ journals:
In 1988, renowned sex researcher Kurt Freund at the Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto studied two groups of paid volunteers and found that gay men responded no more to male child stimuli than heterosexual men responded to female child stimuli. He later described as a “myth” the notion that gay men are more likely than straight men to be child molesters.
In 1992, alarmed over claims made during a campaign for an anti-gay state constitutional amendment in Colorado, two physicians reviewed every case of suspected child molestation evaluated at Children’s Hospital in Denver over a one-year period. Of the 269 cases determined to involve molestation by an adult, only two of the perpetrators could be identified as gay or lesbian. The researchers concluded that the risk of child sexual abuse by an identifiably gay or lesbian person was between zero and 3.1%, and that the risk of such abuse by the heterosexual partner of a relative was over 100 times greater.
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Drat and darn it.
I want to argue against some of these people, but their arguments are difficult to refute, they make good points as they are allowed to do and in actuality what they are saying shouldn’t cause me any harm….
What to do… what do I do… OH!! I know!!
Homophobes!!!!
Gets them every time…
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For the benefit of billythefish, taken from Wikipedia
Homophobia is a term for a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality and people identified or perceived as being homosexual. Definitions[1][2][3] of the term refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination[1][2] and violence on the basis of a non-heterosexual orientation. In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.”[4]
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I was just wondering where i fit in.
I dont care what people get up to in there bedrooms gay or straight. I dont think gays should have any less rights then any other group.
But i dont agree with two same sex adopting and i will quickly turn over the tv or turn away if i see two men kissing, i just dont want to watch it.
So do i have a case of “Homophobia”?
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Flying Scott
The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’. What? Where did that come from? I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say here.
You then asked, “How do you know your assailants were homosexual, and not paedophile?”
Three of them are still in the island, over 60 and never married. I’ve never seen the violent one since.
I never said or implied that I gave credence to Camerons ‘report’. What I have said is that my own experience upholds the point that Dr Williams drew from that ‘report’.
You are of course free to choose whether to take my claims seriously or not. Are you trying to say that you won’t believe what I suffered until you read it in a ‘journal’. We both know that is not going to happen.
I can understand your frustration here as you are trying to argue with someone with experience of the subject from an inexperienced position. Most people faced with this would recognise the futility of it.
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Student Bob:
Where have you been?!
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Billy the Fish.
Having the freedom of speech to say something does not prevent it from being homophobic. If someone uses their right to free speech to express prejudice views about another person’s gender or race it is still sexist or racist. If someone expresses prejudice views about another person’s sexuality it is homophobic. All of which I am highly offended by as they lead to discrimination and injustice. It is perfectly clear that there are homophobic people writing on here and there is no point trying pretend its something else.
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bcb
Good point. Just read all the posts on here and the answer is obvious.
If you’re not gay then you must be homophobic.
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The thing about telly is you have nowhere else to look. You’re hetrosexual so watching straight kissing on the telly will get a positive reaction from you and you’ll most likely keep watching. Two guys kissing isn’t what you want to see, switching channel shouldn’t make you homophobic, just not interested in two guys kissing. Same sex adoption is a hard one to get to grips with, I really struggle with the idea, but most kids come from single parent families these days and there’s a huge amount of domestic abuse that’s deemed part of everyday life and so ignored or accepted. How can offering orphaned kids a stable loving home be a bad thing whatever the sex of the parents?
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Steven
I have no doubt you were targeted by paedophiles – but neither you, nor I, know that they were homosexual.
Not marrying proves nothing – on an island like Guernsey I have no doubt many homosexual men marry – but that does not make them heterosexual, probably to their continuing misery.
Your predators may have no interest in adults – of either gender.
The phrase ‘the plural of anecdote is not data’ comes from Ben Goldacre – author of ‘Bad Science’ – you can’t extrapolate from one or two instances to a well founded conclusion. For that you need ‘data’ – controlled studies, not ‘my friend down the pub was touched up by an old pouf’.
This is not to diminish the nastiness of what happened to you, but its also not a sound foundation to make assertions about generalities, when these generalities have been contradicted by studies involving hundreds of instances of child abuse.
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Your views seem to be pretty mainstream bcb. I too might be turned off by the sight of two men kissing on tv, not because it’s wrong but because it just doesn’t rock my boat.
As for same sex couples adopting it’s something I don’t know much about because I’ve never had any kids. Raising this, though, does cloud the matter in hand, over which I have no doubt. If you’re old enough to have sex at 16 you’re old enough to have sex at 16. Full stop.
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Martino, i wondered when you’d crawl out with your superior attitude , as it happens,having had my say, i was going to leave this alone ,but being as i don,t particularly like being called ignorant by a smarta**e like you ,here it is .
I personally think homosexuality is wrong on several counts ,and if i was to graphically describe why, then (1)the press wouldn’t be able to print it and (2)a lot a people would probably feel sick so you will have to use your imagination ,or google up a couple of films (dont be eating your tea when you do this). there ,now see what you’ve done got me all fired up into full homophobe mode ,just when i thought it had gone away years ago .
Unfortunatly comments like yours do nothing for the cause and may in fact set it back to the days of queer bashing gangs .think on!
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It was Voltaire who said “I do not agree with what you have to say but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”.
What the Doctor has suggested publically is totally, utterly wrong and grossly offensive to all right-thinking members of our society. But he has the right to say what he likes, regardless of how unacceptable it is. That’s why we live in a democracy which values rights including the freedom of speech.
I totally understand why Mr Gavet feels deeply upset by the GP’s ignorant, ill-informed comments; but reporting him to the GMC is unlikely to result in him being struck off or receiving a stiff punishment of a different sort. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, and, inter alia, milkmen are allowed to have very repugnant views; it doesn’t actually stop them from doing their jobs, as difficult as that is to admit.
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Flying Scot
Please do not presume to know if I know or not. I did try to convince you that these predators were homosexual by way of alluding to their ongoing marital state in full knowledge that this proves nothing, but gives an indication.
Short of naming these people, all I can say is this, I have only known them to engage in male company, minor and adult, and never female.
As for the nastiness of what happened to me particularly regarding the violent approach, that individual learnt, to his detriment, that even a pacifist is capable of quite violent acts given the right circumstance.
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If you think it’s wrong arapaho you don’t have to join in.
Why are you Googling gay films though?
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Steven.
I always thought one of the early signs of a guy being gay was his preference to female company? Being unconfortable around women is often a sign of sexual immaturity. The fact is the monster that attacked you was just that, a monster, predator, abuser. He may have been attacking young girls as well. Two teenage friends of mine were drugged and raped back in the 80′s by the same local guy. One a boy, the other a girl.
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So nice to see some people coming out in their true colours…..
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Arapaho,
Martino isn’t being a smart a**e, she is simply not being an ignoramus.
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All of us are entitled to an opinion,wether we be the Queen,a Doctor,or the Salvage collector.But I do notice that the Doctor,who had the courage to say who he was,is badly belaboured by many who hide their identity.Oh I do know you have to give your e mail address,but I also know the Press is honour bound not to reveal it!So if you have the courage of your convictions then stand up,like Doctor Williams,and say who you are!
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Dont get your panties in twist there, Dorothy just because i know they are there dosent mean i watch them.
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mr Gavet get in the real world, I totally agree with Dr Williams and he has my respect for giving his views.
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Local Guern:
Do you mean you agree with the statistic quoted, or the fact that lowering the age of consent would promote paedophilia?
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Truth Man!! Hi.
Where have I been?? I’m glad you asked. I’ve been out on clinical placement for the last two months doing healthcare professional stuff and saving the lives of both men and women of any sexual orientation, without prejudice, despite my own personal views on the benefits of heterosexuality.
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Intereseting that a couple of people thought I was trying to wind anyone up. I definitely wasn’t. Paedophilia IS a sexual orientation, not an inclination to prey or harm. Just like any other sexual orientation, however, there are a minority who are violent and cannot control their urges. If this seems unlikely to you, then maybe you should consider that those who do not rape children are unlikely to end up in the media, leading to extremely biased coverage. Similarly, those who work professionally with abused children are likely to see samples rife with selection bias. With reference to the incident of sarah payne, it seems almost absurd to me that the single death of a child, however tragic, can be taken as irrefutable proof that we need to do something about paedophilia. This would be like claiming that a single gay rape means that we “have to do something” about homosexuality.
It is in fact a sad property of our society that our attitude towards paedophilia is the very thing that forces them into secrecy, which society then almost universally reinterprets as insidiousness. In the UK, it is at the point whereby somebody can be “convicted as a paedophile” for possessing clothed images of children taken in legitimate settings. I should actually say that there are so many problems with the way in which we deal with paedophilia, that no single argument alone tends to be convincing. It is something that requires a complete paradigm shift in the way we think about the topic.
At the end of the day, if society learnt instead to embrace paedophilia as a sexuality, and allow paedophiles to be open, surely this would only be of benefit to both the safety of children and the quality of lives of many paedophiles.
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Like Dr. Williams I am a family man. Unlike Dr. Williams I have no wish to subject my family to the wrath of public backlash. His poor wife and kids must be going through hell, and all because he felt the need to make inflamatory comments in the GP. Whether you agree with his comments or not, you have to wonder about his intelligence.
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People keep mentioning freedom of speech and the right to opinions, which as a human being Dr Williams of course has all of those rights, BUT as a GP he signed up to the GMC’s code of practice and has gone against it by making his views known in public, causing distress to his patients.
If I signed a contract at work, then went against it there would be repurcussions for me also.
@ Ruth Frank – if the GMC were not interested in issues of this nature, why would they include them in their code of practice?
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N
I agree with one of your points about them “being open”
That way we will know who they are so we can lock em up for life or just shoot them.
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N.
It’s my understanding that Paedophilia is a condition ‘contracted’, often through the offender being abused at a young age. It’s got nothing to do with your genetic makeup, it’s unatural and harmful to children and society as a whole. Even if a paedophile doesn’t abuse kids himself he will most likely use and promote child porn thus harming children as a 3rd party. Any person who suffers from this condition should be offered help and in extreme cases, in my opinion chemically or otherwise castrated, or just put down like a rabid dog. To compare paedophiles to homosexuals is suspect in the extreme and I strongly suggest you seek help.
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Student Bob:
Good to hear from you! Hope the studies are going well, and that your career is rather more healthy (see what I did there?!) than Dr Williams’ seems to be at present!
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N
I have been saying similar things for a considerable time. It would seem for many that ignorance is the chosen option…..
Seperately, I welcome Dr. Williams decision to take part in lifes debates.
DNAB, I think its unfair to include Dr Williams family here in any regard.
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It will be interesting to see if Dr William’s patient list grows as a result of his comments. At least you know where you stand if you choose to see him! I suggest that everyone in favour of his views signs up to Dr William’s list, thereby freeing up other doctors that can treat the rest of us!
I personally think the gay population of the island should get off their high horses and stop being so precious about their “orientation”. Rather than lower the age of consent, it should be the case to raise it for both gay and heterosexuals alike.
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Tina W
In answer to your last question
If they dont include it, you get the PC brigade attacking them for not having anything in there.
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Most Gay people of course arent paedophiles however most male paedophiles are bi sexual therefore he may have a point.
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A predator is simply that. Gay straight Bisexual. There is no other way of looking at it. Everyone is entitled to their views BUT when people voice them, they become offensive and prejudice. You can think all you want in your head….. like a certain faith is oppresive to women and you dont like it. You can think that certain ethnicities cause more trouble than others. Gay people make you sick. Say it and you become a racsist and homophobic! THAT IS FACT!
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Is the doctor not entitled to say what he believes without fear of being struck off? Seeing a belief and his professional conduct are not related the idea of him being struck off is not realistic but of a bullying nature ie go along with Mr Gavet or else………..
I do not believe the Medical Council would want to consider this matter as they have better things to do.
The likes of Mr Gavet are not to be listened to, he fails to understand that the doctor is entitled to his beliefs – whatever they are.
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Anybody who comments about “shooting” or “castrating them all” deserves to have a child who turns out to be a paedophile, and is no better than the most bigoted homophobe ;)
simon, :D
DNAB,
It is almost irrefutable that many paedophiles were never abused themselves as children, so I’m afraid your understanding is simply false. All of the evidence suggests that paedophilia is a sexuality, like any other sexuality whether straight, gay or bisexual, and we don’t know whether it’s caused by nature or nurture.
You may like to bear in mind the interesting fact that many who abuse children and are labeled as “paedophiles” are in fact nothing of the sort. (i.e. it is not their primary sexual attraction). A ‘cycle of abuse’ is apparent in many of these cases, but it doesn’t seem to be linked to actual sexuality.
We’ve also now somehow got onto child porn. This is what I was saying earlier – this is a multi faceted topic, and no one argument is ever convincing. Once we’re over one topic, there’ll be another, and another, and another… Child porn is in fact a large topic in itself and I don’t have time to set this straight now.
I would also note (without justification) that in fact the current legal system is in a position whereby tightening laws is actually necessarily harming more children than it is helping. The resolution to this apparent paradox can be seen by considering a simple statistical distribution, and in doing so seeing that in interpreting reality in a “black and white” manner about absolute cut offs, what we think is a good approximation to reality is in the quite the opposite. At best, we must get things wrong and are forced by our own self imposed definitions to reinterpret non-abuse as abuse *in at least half of cases*, viz. in the majority of cases, not just a few that “slip the net”.
It’s a simple concept, but granted not an easy one to get heads around.
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come on a short journey with me….
I am a young man with no sexual experience.
I feel an inclination towards young children, but i have never acted on it as society tells me it is wrong.
I dont ever want to harm a child and i need to know where i can get help to ensure this never happens.
I know that so much hatred exists out there towards people like me, yet i have done no wrong.
I am your 16 year old son !
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N
Please explain how paedophilia is not harmful to children.
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I have had the pleasure of having Dr Williams as my GP for the last 5 years, and a good one he is.
The trouble with our beautiful island is that most folk live in the past and should begin to realise that most of the rest of the world believe in and practise freedom of speech. If Dr Williams has an opinion then you dont have to agree with it, voice your own and leave the good doc alone..
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@ Dave Haslam
…..or perhaps they genuinely believe in equality.
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@Steve
Mr Williams is entitled to hold and express any opinions he chooses, however well informed, or not, they are.
Dr Williams, on the other hand, has a duty of care to his patients and certain responsibilities under the GMC Guide to Good Practice.
In respect of:
12. You must keep your knowledge and skills up to date throughout your working life…
and
33. You must not express to your patients your personal beliefs, including political, religious or moral beliefs, in ways that exploit their vulnerability or that are likely to cause them distress
His letter to the Guernsey Press raises legitimate issues of concern. What’s wrong with having the GMC investigate this?
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Wil, firstly, that’s a silly question. Entirely analogous to “people explain how heterosexuality is not harmful to women”. Paedophilia is not some homogeneous entity. Harm is indeed caused by many paedophiles. But, they are a minority, and, I’ve said this before but it’s so important: in order to be fair, we have to accept some element of risk. I woudl recommend the recent book “Understanding and Addressing Adult Sexual Attraction to Children” by Sarah D. Goode for a more detailed, and excellent account of this.
There is actually another thing. This is always a dangerous one to pull out, but you did ask ;) It surprises many people to learn that there is really no scientific consensus as to whether sexual relationships between adults and children are necessarily harmful (just to put things more in perspective, this is of course not only talking about some 50+ man preying on a 4 year old girl, but also any other illegal but possibly more palettable situation, e.g. a 20 year old and a 14 year old, or a 17 year old and a 15 year old..) I am reluctant to take this any further, because 1. It is a massive topic, and 2. I know from past experience that many people do not have the experience to objectively assess the situation, even though they think that they quite clearly do. But in brief, what am I trying to say? I’m trying to answer your question. In order to be fair, we have to accept some element of risk. But is that risk too big to take? having considered the evidence, I don’t think so.
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N, heterosexuality (or homo/bisexuality) is not harmful to women (or men) because they consent, they are in control of their choice and usually enjoy it.
As you can see, I have no problem answering your question. Since the same answer cannot be applied to “paedophilia” i can see why you stumble and have such difficulties. The issue here is not about legitimising any sexualities, or saying that any sexuality is right or wrong- it is solely about the age of consent being equal for all sexualities.
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Wil
The problem with your last paragraph is that by having an age of consent, you are effectivly stating that some sexuality is indeed wrong.
eg Surely you cant state that Paedophilia is an acceptable sexuality but can only be practiced between consenting adults over 18years old.
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N.
As we have seen with Dr. Williams, if you look for it you’ll always find a book that backs up your beliefs no matter how spurious. How can the rape of children ever be accepted in a civilised society. As for you hoping I spawn abusers myself, do you say that as a curse or blessing?
Here’s an interesting read, forgive me for copy pasting. Please note the lack of a gene ever being mapped. I read that as meaning it’s not naturally occuring, a damaging flaw.
A variety of different theories exist as to the causes of pedophilia. A few researchers attribute pedophilia along with the other paraphilias to biology. They hold that testosterone, one of the male sex hormones, predisposes men to develop deviant sexual behaviors. As far as genetic factors are concerned, as of 2002 no researchers have claimed to have discovered or mapped a gene for pedophilia.
Most experts regard pedophilia as resulting from psychosocial factors rather than biological characteristics. Some think that pedophilia is the result of having been sexually abused as a child. Still others think that it derives from the person’s interactions with parents during their early years of life. Some researchers attribute pedophilia to arrested emotional development; that is, the pedophile is attracted to children because he or she has never matured psychologically. Some regard pedophilia as the result of a distorted need to dominate a sexual partner. Since children are smaller and usually weaker than adults, they may be regarded as nonthreatening potential partners. This drive for domination is sometimes thought to explain why most pedophiles are males.
Taken from http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html
Simon, the way you tell it, it’s simpler for a Paedophile to act out his condition then to seek help. That just doesn’t wash mate. These days child molesters and murderers are given secret identities and afforded more help and protection than their victims.
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Simon, I think you are taking your devil’s advocate stance a bit too far.
Class paedophilia as a sexuality if you like, but by its very nature, one party will be too young to consent and so its practice, whether passive or active is harmful. So yes, the practice of paedophilia IS wrong, just like any sexual acts between non-consenting parties.
Are you saying that the right to practice the sexuality of paedophilia is greater than the right of children to be protected? The objective amongst us can sympathise with the dilemmas and difficulties of being a non-practising paedophile, but that does not mean that they should be allowed to practice.
But this rather academic discussion has taken us away from the point – the age of consent between consenting homosexuals has nothing to do with paedophilia.
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Tina
Yes, but in todays over-PC, over-litigious, over-sensitive society its more likely to be fear of having the “how dare you” brigade on their backs.
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Wil – the reason you have no problem answering that question is that you are operating with a simplified view of the world, and choose to be completely ignorant of the complexity of the facts. I understand that you may be happier operating under this premise, but nobody said that life was going to be easy.
Did you not take in even the most basic point I made in my previous comment? I’m afraid that exactly the same answer *can* be applied to paedophilia, it is just that with your skewed understanding of the statistics, it does not seem like this to you. Research shows that both of these things are in fact also the case in many cases involving two people straddling the age of consent. Do you think I am trying to sit here and justify situations whereby children sit terrified of the next move of their assailant? Obviously not. I’m trying to educate people that the variety of situations out there in the world is actually far greater than they want to imagine, and that we are wasting time and resources, and causing great harm to both adults and children by shutting our eyes, singing lalalala and blindly enforcing what our biology naturally tells us “should” and “shouldn’t” be.
DNAB – I don’t really care exactly how paedophilia happens. We don’t know how homosexuality happens either, it may or may not be genetic. The important thing is understanding its effects. (Besides, the lack of a single specific gene never having being mapped does not mean that it is not qa genetic phenomenon. Either we just may have not found it, or it could be a combination of many genes.)
The basic fact is, that if you were to ask non age and gender specific questions to various people about their partners of choice, you would have a very hard time distinguishing between a paedophile, and somebody of any other sexuality.
As for “one book”, heh, did you even bother reading that one book? You can’t just assume that a book is some sort of “propaganda” just because it seems like it may contain something you don’t want to hear. In fact, the penultimate chapter of that book goes into detail as to why illegal sex is always harmful. A chapter I strongly disagree with, because it uses circular logic and selected, emotionally stirring anecdotes to prove its point, but IMHO the rest of the book is good enough to offset that material.
But I am talking to a brick wall, I know full well that most people have no intention of changing their mind on this issue, even if by debating it they seem to suggest they would be willing to.
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DNAB,
incidentally, for the record I never hoped that you would spawn an abuser, that would be terrible! Let’s get at least one thing right and distinguish between paedophilia as a sexuality, and child molestation as a moral abomination, hey? ;)
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Wil –
ah, just another correction sorry, I think I misunderstood you slightly. My point about posing the analogous question back to you was to think critically about the inadequacies of lumping together heterosexuals as a homogenous group.
The question is a bad one because it conflates sexuality with actions – we are falsely indicating that having a sexuality necessarily *implies* those actions, and even the desire/ability to perform those actions. Just like the fact that it is false to assume that paedophilia necessarily implies harm, it is false to assume that heterosexuality does not necessarily imply harm. Imagine if we were to assume that, just because most adult relationships turn out to be safe, we could just ignore it whenever an adult was raped!
I think the question you were trying to ask was “please explain how a sexual relationship between two individuals whose ages straddle the age of consent may not be harmful to the minor in a significant proportion of cases”. This can quite clearly be answered by considering the statistics.
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Im a 21 year old bi-sexual male who has just returned to guernsey after 11 months travelling.
After taking a while to catch up with all that has been going on recently in relation to anything homosexually related, i need to say that im absolutely shocked and appalled!
Ok so i agree with everyone who says Dr Williams is allowed to voice his opinion, but when his opinion is expressed AS a doctor who we all believe are pillars in a community especially one such as Guernsey in such a public and in my opinion completely disrespectful way, then yes, people are well within their rights to be outraged by it!
I myself am alot luckier then alot of young homosexual/bi-sexual people in the sense that im a very extroverted person, with alot of confidence and an excepting, understanding and supportive family and friends network. So what gives him the right to “scare” young people who are confused enough already about their sexuality by practically saying if you turn out gay you may be a paedophile when your older.
Regardless of whether what he has said is fact or fiction (although peoples research seems to suggest more likely fiction) its more about common human decency and the acknowledgement that its the 21st century and regardless of whether people like it or not homosexuals and all other variations of sexuality are here and here to stay!
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DNAB
I just loved the way you said “if you look for it you’ll always find a book that backs up your beliefs no matter how spurious”
Before going on to quote from someone elses text that (funnily enough) supports your arguement.
That was satire right?????
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TL for clarity
In general terms (and its difficult to generalise here)what im saying is;
To practice is wrong, but having the desire to practice is not. We should be helping people with such desires so that they dont offend.
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simon – I agree with your clarification.
But as this issue is prompted by the age of consent, we are talking about practice, not thoughts. There is no age of consent for thoughts.
It’s still all irrelevant to the original issue.
Harrison – well said.
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Homosexuals are not bad people or child molesters. Some are born, others choose the lifestyle. Some practise, others struggle qietely through life making the best of a very difficult situation that they never chose to be put in.
That said, there are many studies that show a greater per capita risk in many areas where a practising homosexual is concerned.
It gives me no pleasure at all to list the dangers of such a lifestyle and I will not list them as it not te type of topic that translates well through the written word. however if you google something like “Homosexual mortality rates” you will soon discover the real facts, not from the Bible or a gay lobby group, but from medical science groups etc.
Active homosexuality is a hazardous lifestyle to pursue. If there is any way that we can help people (especially older school children)to stay safe and healthy, then we should do so.
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Everyone can see the difference between people who “straddle” the age of consent and an adult paedophile who preys on small children – How can you say that they do not? The law reflects this difference and applies it. This is very clear and it is not necessary to ramble arrogantly on and on about it as if it is something new.
The issue here being discussed is “age of consent” being standardised for all sexualities. Whether your personal beliefs make you think consent is necessary or not is irrelevant to this discussion.
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Agree with you 100% TL – and also well said Harrison.
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Oh for petes sake this DR is speaking his mind he is aloud to do that and i am sure his facts are right. no one would have said anything if gavet had not got defensive and his knickers in a twist.
OH and by the way i have good friends who are gay and they have not got a problem with the above article
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as for gavet saying gays are high risk to suicide- that is crap.
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my gay friends are in the same room and say they are all happy and have never thought of taking there own lives my stright friend who is sat op me said she felt suicidal after a marriage break up some years ago she wants to know dose this meen she is gay LOL
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Wil – part of this discussion is about whether it matters whether a large proportion of gay men are paedophiles or not. I am simply pointing out that the risks involved in this are not as high as many people understand them to be. That this involves particular involved arguments is an unfortunately necessity.
I’m glad you can see that difference. Unfortunately, you are wrong in thinking that the law reflects it, or that everyone can always see it. If only they truly did and could judge every situation individually and objectively, then the problems I have described above would not exist.
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Is there any objection to the raising of age for anal sex between a man and a woman to eighteen?
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Coco…..
Maybe do some research on bullying/homophobia links to self-harm and suicides rather than just ask a group of your ‘happy’gay friends who happen to be in the same room. Friends who are SO very happy, they don’t mind being told that there is a higher risk of them becoming child abusers.
I used to work with rough sleepers in Central London and the amount of teenage kids who were on the streets after suffering bullying and being kicked out by their parents would shock you and your Happy Gay Friends!
I’m sat in a room with my 3 dogs, one is black and the other two are brown….that doesn’t mean that 2/3 of the worlds population of dogs are brown and the rest of them are black now does it??!!
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Lee I think your missing the point.if you need me to spell it out I will but right now I can not be bothered.read the article then read my post and you might get it
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