2

Bellis

2 ryt. Bout tym.

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4

PJ

Interesting the decision was unanimous. There were deputies who voted ‘for’ after stating they were against in letters/e-mails I have seen! No backbone once again.

Next the PC brigade want to introduce same sex relationships topic in health education for 5-6 year olds….. shame on this Island!!!!!
How horrible, I wouldn’t want a teacher telling my children about gay and lesbian relationships.

Mark my words, this Island will start to reap the consequences of these very poor decisions.

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6

PC

Jon,
Do not forget – Over 18′s only for alcoholic drinks ;)
Great decision for Equality

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8

Tina W

Great stuff guys – hope to see all supporters at the party tonight, and even those that might want a bit of education!

Great to see that the states have seen that religious views are not enough to justify discrimination in the law.

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10

Dean

I think this is great news for the Island.

Don, don’t quite know what you are waffling about? And the clergy have never cared about homosexual age of consent have they?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8577740.stm

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12

Doug

Don – what on earth are you burbling on about? Get a grip man. It’s a sensible vote for equality not a precursor to the fall of Western civilisation as we know it.

I assume you’re a ‘Christian’ Don? Lovely people aren’t you? I spent half of last night on the phone to young artist of my acquaintance in the UK. A nice guy, 3 ‘A’s at A-Level and a good degree he worked hard for. Made the mistake of telling his church going parents that he has a crush on a guy. He phoned me from the street with his bags being flung out of the door behind him and language from his Church Council mother that you would not expect to hear from a whore.

There’s God’s love for ya!

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14

FlyingScot

@Auntie GP – this was covered in the States’ debate – St James Chambers are currently working on a major overhaul of the sexual offences regulations, and you may expect so see your desired ‘misuse of orifices’, to borrow Dr William’s phrase, addressed in that. Until then….I very much doubt HM Procureur would bring a case should you wish to act on your desires tonight….won’t Mrs Aunty GP be thrilled!

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16

Neil

Great news !,but I would not like to think what some parents would think if they knew that their gay schoolboy son was being met at the school gates by his 45 year gay partner. It can and may happen thats for sure. Auntie GP,yes I agree me and my missus wanted to try this ‘back door’ fun,but we are strictly law abiding and will have to wait until the law and the human rights brigade take a look at the rights of the heterosexual woman .

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18

Chris M

Why is it that because its the 21st Century, it’s seen as a (hey-ho) brilliant excuse to indulge in, and lets be honest, incredibly degrading acts with other human beings ?
Now, I’m not one of ‘yer prudes’..I was around in London in the 60′s. Yes, smoked the dope and indulged in some fairly wild times.
Its easy to make fun of John Henry, because he’s put himself up as an easy target. But just because he doesn’t fit your ‘image’ doesn’t mean that his beliefs should be rubbished.
I’m not particularly religious, but I do have a modicum of self-respect.
Ok, there’s nothing I can do about the situation, but I find it very sad that the States have bowed to a distorted opinion which will affect a number of lives, and not for the better…

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20

Jaydee

Why is it that we are not able to talk openly about this topic on the radio or in the press without censorship and yet we can make the actual practise available to our children.

The guy with the notice board was warned that his wording was too nasty, but then one hour later, it is decided in the court to permit school kids to penetrate each other (but only if they are boys)

And what was the talk about shower cubicles in Beau Sejour? Was this deputy joking or serious? I couldn’t tell as I was working with machinery at the time and missed certain bits of the debate.

I don’t know how much was a joke as I was still trying to come to terms with the double standards on offer but this subject is nothing to joke about, this is peoples lives we are talking about.

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22

peter

yawn

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24

Tony

What is wrong with the truth.

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26

Martino

Even if a few deputies were reluctant supporters, the unanimous States vote sends out a brilliant message that ends the shame of Guernsey lagging behind the rest of the enlightened world in the early 21st century. This vote must now be followed up by the immediate introduction of civil partnerships for gay and lesbian couples.
Also, the island’s archaic law against ‘sodomy’ (the very term ‘sodomy’ is an awful, pejorative term beloved by bigots) should be repealed, thrown out and chucked back into the biblical dark ages where it belongs, together with the likes of John Henry and his fundamentalist prejudices.
To him and to the rest of you mad or sad bible bashers out there (thankfully a diminishing number these days): You are welcome to your ridiculous beliefs but try keeping them out of other peoples’ bedrooms in future. Nobody’s listening!

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28

John

Good! Guernsey catching up with the rest of the world can only be classified as a good thing. As for those talking about “where are the churches” and “what does this mean for my 5 year old”, the answer if you can get it past your thick archaic skulls is nothing! This change just makes what some people have been doing anyway, legal. I think you’ll find if young people such as myself (I am 19) want to do something they will do it. So it’s about time some stop thinking that this issue will rock Guernsey to the core. It will not, by next week there will be a new headline for us all to fuss over.

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30

Tina W

Great party last night everyone – thanks to all who attended to celebrate and have fun!

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32

Phil

Student Bob

You’ve let yourself down there I’m afraid, what a ridiculous post.

The comments of the few should have no effect on the legal rights of the majority to enjoy equality. Using your example all Christians should be treated unfairly due to the homophobic comments that some of them make.

Best get back to school young man.

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34

Dean

‘”gays” just want to cherry pick the pits they like, will they want to vote out stealing or killing next’

‘man the clinic’s gonna be busy tomorow [sic]‘

‘that they lack the common decency and maturity to enjoy equality’

AMAZING! Keep it coming guys.

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36

Dave Haslam

Student Bob

Hope thet studies are going well, cracking post!

Homophobia is blatently not allowed, but Heterophobia is completely justified….. apparently!!

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38

Truth Man

Dean (& Student Bob):

Nice summing up. I too am sitting here in amazement at some of the posts. Student Bob in particular surprised me, through observing his posts over previous threads I usually have a respect for his views. It was a real shock to hear him stereotyping in the way he did.

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40

Martino

Well done to Paul for going to the party and for his welcome, sincere bridge building efforts.
Student Bob what a pathetic post that really does show you up in your true colours. As a heterosexual supporter of gay rights I haven’t seen any ‘heterophobic’ comments in this or any other thread from homosexual posters. Perhaps you’d like to highlight one or two examples?
What I have seen and what I must admit to displaying myself is a hatred of hate-filled homophobic, sin-obsessed bigots. But to equate this with a hatred of all heterosexuals is simply laughable and just goes to show how weak are the arguments of those (like you Student Bob?) who oppose equal rights.

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42

John

To all the posts spouting homosexuallity being a sin then there are a lot of priests committing a lot of sin

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44

FlyingScot

@Paul le Page – no, not a loony, but a sincere Christian, in thought and deed. The hate demonstrated by some so-called ‘christians’ (mercifully a tiny minority) makes me wonder whether they have the remotest concept of what ‘Christianity’ is.

Would it also be fair to say that your Church teaches you that the bible says homosexuality is a sin, but there are other Churches which reach different conclusions?

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46

Bridge

I see the narrow-minded country bumpkins are out in force again. and a few methodists I suspect!

Yo, bigots and christian hypocrites, homosexuality is a fact of life – get used to it…

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48

Truth Man

SpongeBob:

I always think it is such a shame people like you, with your unintelligent, poorly thought out, and inaccurate posts, are given a voice and a vote. Just my opinion of course.

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50

North of Alderney

As seen on the back of a pick up truck in the US “What’s so gay about being Queer”.

This nothing about 21st century,pretend progress, it is about natural and unnatural acts and trying to pretend they are of equal standing.

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52

Kittycat

Paul Le Page,

Thank you. I am a Christian, and it really makes me sad to see people using religion as a reason to hate. I’m glad there are reasonable, respectful, true Christians like yourself who are willing to voice your beliefs and put things into perspective. So thank you :)

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54

Lee

For all those who think lowering the age of consent was wrong……why didn’t you join Mr Henry outside the states on Thursday?? He really looked sad ond lonely all on his own there!!!

It’s funny to think that so few gay people used to attend Gay-Rights protests for fear of being spotted, now the gay-haters stay away for exactly the same reason. The world around us is changing for the better.

Well done to the States for bringing this stupid inequality to an end.

Lee

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56

Lee

@ Brian Nichols

Homosexuality is a sin, if thats what you beleive then I’ll respect that but you should have been outside the States as well on Thursday.

The bible also says that eating shell fish is a sin, you should protest outside any restaurant that has prawns on its menu.

The bible also says that having contact with women who are on their period makes you unclean, you should start off every conversation you have with a women with ‘Excuse me, are you having your monthly because if so I can’t talk to you’ (see where that one gets you)

The bible also says that working on the Sabath is a sin and anyone who does so should be put to death. Are you going to kill every vicar on the island? (because lets face it, they work on a Sunday)

The bible says that if a woman wears mans clothing she is commiting a sin, are you going to take your protest to M&S? (They sell trousers for women don’t you know?)

The bible says that planting 2 different crops in the same field is a sin. Are you going to check this one out for us?

Do let me know!

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58

Martino

Student Bob you still haven’t given a single example to support your extremely dubious charge of ‘heterophobia’ and you are becoming more and more irrational with each and every post you make on this subject.
I’m heterosexual and I don’t feel in the least bit hated by gay people as a result of Martin Gavet’s perfectly understandable issue with what the doctor had to say. I am equally confident that Mr Gavet’s complaint to the GMC had nothing whatsoever to do with the doctor’s sexual orientation and everything to do with the very unpleasant things he had to say against gay people.

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60

Paul Le Page

@Lee – it’s quite alright to be a little confused. If you haven’t looked into it you might well look at the Bible, Christian behaviour and think ‘what the ****?!’ these Christians are picking and choosing.

If you’re genuinely interested in understanding this, can I point you to this article which might help a little to explain the perceived ‘cherry picking’? It’s right here:

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_law_hays.html

I’ll give an example from your questions: in the New Testament Jesus declared all foods ‘clean’ thus nullifying the Old Testament regulations – it’s therefore perfectly OK for me to chomp on a good Guernsey lobster….hallelujah!! ;-)

I’m sure it won’t answer all your questions, but I don’t have all the answers anyway. I’m still learning, and will continue to learn for the rest of my life….

Hope that’s helpful

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62

Dave Jones

PJ

It had nothing to do with backbone, it was always about a law that was un-enforceable in the first place as well as being discriminatory, the age at which people choose to indulge in sexual practices will always be determined by those involved, not by a specific law. I said in my speech that I was uncomfortable with lowering the age as there is always a question of the emotional or sexual maturity of individuals which will be different for some people. I asked a gay friend of our family before the debate at what age he knew he was gay, he told me he was about 13 when he knew for sure, I found that very young, nonetheless that’s what he said. It was a difficult subject and on balance I think States members felt that youngsters can vote at 16 get married at 16, work and pay taxes at 16 and should be free to make up their minds what personal relationships they want, sometimes you just have to take a more pragmatic stance on these issues as not everything in life is black and white. One other thing I do think that having passed this legislation that 16 year olds who commit criminal offences should not be allowed to hide behind anonymity because of their age given all the other things I have just listed.

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64

Student Bob

Martino, you seem confused.

I’m fairly sure my very first paragraph in an earlier post suggests the knee-jerk reaction of Mr Gavet is an example of a heterophobic attack. Many gays have contributed to this forum condemning Mr Gavet’s actions and defending the right of Dr Williams to his personal opinion. They might not agree with it, but they respect his entitlement to it. Are they irrational and homophobic too?? I don’t understand your point.

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66

Paul Le Page

Thanks for your comments Dave Jones. On a similar topic I was delighted to hear your voice among those deputies who criticised our ridiculously disjointed age laws and suggested a universal age of adulthood to the House.

Can you give any indication whether such an idea will be pursued in the near future?

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68

Martino

I’m not at all confused Student Bob but I’ll try to end the confusion, first by agreeing with you that Martin Gavet’s reaction may well have been ‘knee-jerk’, but what I can’t accept is that it was a ‘heterophobic’ reaction.
I’ll try you with a comparison. Imagine a black pupil complaining to the education authorities because his white teacher tells him that blacks are inferior human beings. You wouldn’t say that the black pupil is therefore an anti-white racist, would you?
In just the same way you can’t possibly say that Mr Gavet is a ‘heterophobe’. All you can say, with confidence, is that he is ‘bigot-phobic’ and as a gay man nobody can blame him for that.

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70

Dave Jones

Paul

It will be pursued by me and I suspect others when time allows, in fact I sent a warning shot across the Home Ministers bow during that debate, I think his response to me was that it would cause problems with the new children’s law. My view is “no it wouldn’t” as it would just mean that 16 year olds were old enough to be held criminally responsible for their actions; they can not have it both ways. As for the other anomalies everything else should be 18, driving, drinking (not both together of course) smoking etc. I hope that helps

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72

Dave Haslam

Phil

I didnt think for one second think Student Bob was pigeon-holing all gay people in his first post, and his subsequent posts proved it.

But your big jump into conclusion-land is going some way to proving a point.

Anyone who isnt on here screaming “woohoo gay rights” has been labelled a homophobe, the other threads on this subject have been classic. We’ve had concerned parents bombasted from all angles from the so called “enlightened ones”, who have shown more hate and bile than anyone on here in the last couple of weeks.

Many years ago one of my closest friends came out to me, he said I was the only one I could trust with it, he came from a deeply religious background, and has spent years re-building bridges with people that jumped to horrible conclusions at the time.

Fact is, the world has changed in the 20 subsequent years, homo-sexuality is widely accepted and thankfully the struggles my friend had will not exist for the younger generation.

But at his civil partnership ceremony recently it was very interesting to speak to many of the older generation of homosexuals and their views on the fag-hags and lezbie friends (their terms not mine), and other hangers-on attracted to the queer-as-folk lifestyle, add to that the PC brigade and also a minority of the younger genration of gay people.

Their observations are that these groups are actually making their lives harder with their constant bashing of anyone who even has slight concerns (be it through lack of education or simple dogma), when they get labelled a homophobe or other less palatable names (as wonderfully displayed by Melc above). Its harder for them because its creating ill feeling from the people who may not understand Homosexuality but get attacked because of it.

In short, quit the crusade, it may help you sleep at night in your shell of self-righteousness, but in the long term you will only make it more difficult for the people you claim to represent and you are not impressing anyone except your equally over-zealous peers.

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74

Tim

Some of you may be interested to know that John Henry has known and worked with more gays and lesbians than many of you probably have. Some years ago a good friend of his who was openly gay, sadly and tragically took his own life. John along with another colleague, instigated arranged and officiated at a memorial service to remember their friends life. Johns stance outside the States meeting had little to do with condemnation and much to do with concern.

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76

Student Bob

Dave Haslam – spot on. I was sipping my coffee and musing over a response for Phil, but you’ve summed it up perfectly.

Martino – Yours is a comparison, but not a terribly accurate one. To apply to this situation, it would have to be a black pupil who complained to the education authorities that, say, a book in the school library makes negative comments about black people. If Dr Williams had made his comments to Mr Gavet’s face then I agree that he would have a legitimate complaint, but, for me, Mr Gavet’s was an overly sensitive reaction that played on the public fear of homophobia. Unfortunately, the sensitivity of this subject has lead to widespread fear of expressing an opinion that could be deemed homophobic. This suppression of free speech is heterophobic. We’re prejudicing against heterosexual views.

(Obviously, you’ll all now claim that such a hypothetical school book should never be allowed, but, frankly, I’m surrounded by them at the mo. Clinical Sports Medicine by Bruker et al, for example, contains numerous references to the physiological differences between black and white people.)

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78

Martino

At least my comparison is more logical and useful than your quite feeble attempt to counter it Student Bob.
Nobody has a problem with scientific books that discuss the physiological differences between blacks and whites but Dr Williams stated (as fact!) that being gay is wrong/bad/unnatural. I haven’t read Clinical Sports Medicine by Bruker but I’m guessing the author doesn’t say that being black or white is wrong/bad/unnatural, just that black athletes are physiologically different to white athletes. I also bet the science behind that work is pretty respectable, unlike Dr Williams’ discredited pseudo scientific, religious mumbo-jumbo inspired references.
Again yours is a ridiculous attempt to defend a ridiculous concept of rampant ‘heterophobia’, Student Bob. And what on earth are heterosexual views? I’m heterosexual but I haven’t got heterosexual views – or homosexual views or bisexual views or transexual views or asexual views for that matter.
I have, however, got pretty strong views about the sort of discrimination and bigotry displayed by the Henrys and their church of the poisoned minds. And if I was gay and a Christian I would no more want to join their awful little club any more than any self-respecting black or Asian person would want to join the BNP.
My comparison still holds good.

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80

Neil

Truth Man,Ill think you could be a MP with that kind of spin! are you trying to tell me that more women engage in anal sex than gay men ,thats just laughable and a decoy from what the story is about. .I noticed that you put anal and oral sex in the same basket too!,I can only state that oral sex between hetrosexuals and homosexual adults is a million miles away from an adult homosexual man indulging in sodomy with a school age boy. That what my comment was about!

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82

Student Bob

Martino, what a stupid comment.

Dr Williams substantiated his claims with research – the validity or not of any research is always open to debate of course. So your comment boils down to differences in race being acceptable in scientific debate, but differences in sexuality being taboo?? Grow up.

As for your views, well, I’m rather afraid they’re showing!! How would you best describe your personal hatred for John Henry and his ilk?? Are you prejudiced against homophobia?? What shall we call your tirades against another person’s heterosexual pov?? It’s not ‘homophilic’ is it – you’re deliberately attacking hetero opinions. Tell me Martino. What makes you any different from “filthy John Henry”??

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84

Truth Man

Dave Haslam & Student Bob:

The last two paragraphs of your last post give good food for thought, and I especially liked this “Its harder for them because its creating ill feeling from the people who may not understand Homosexuality but get attacked because of it.”. A very valid point and as a result I will resist the urge to go down the finger pointing route.

That said, Student Bob, would you please let me know which posts you feel are heterophobic? I have been following these threads, and all I could spot are posts from people who are encouraging others to be more inclusive, and less homophobic. I can’t believe a person who stands against homophobia can automatically be accused of being heterophobic, therefore I can only assume you have seen posts I have missed.

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86

Dave Haslam

Here we go…… enlightened

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88

Jaydee

Martino

Your posts are so hate filled, Neither Dr Williams or John Henry have said anything nasty to individuals, they have merely shared their thoughts on an act which they believe is unnatural and a danger to those who indulge in
it.
Both of these men care for those around them to the point that they can’t remain quiet even when they know the cost to them and their families of openly sharing those concerns.
I see on your last post, that you are now verbally attacking Mr Henry’s family, have they done something to upset you?
You are very happy to ridicule and insult others whilst letting forum users know how switched on and enlightened you are but the evidence would very much suggest otherwise.
I dont know you, maybe you are just having fun teasing people, if you are, maybe you go a bit far at times.
If you are actually as bitter and twisted as your posts, you really need to see Dr Williams or John Henry to find out how they keep so calm under the immense pressure they face in keeping island children happy and healthy.
They are the ones who appear to have no equality or rights.
Martino, if you are ill or possibly write when you are not in full control, then I apologise for pointing the above out in public, if you write what you do with a clear mind, you really need a bit of a helping hand.

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90

Martino

Yes, Jaydee I do indeed have a hatred of irrational, fundamentalist fuelled bigotry but at least I admit it and I don’t mind confronting it wherever I see it.
Nothing personal against Dr Williams and John Henry but have you ever, for one instance, stopped to think how those at the receiving end of their own hate filled – yes, hate filled – messages must feel, even if they are not directed towards a particular individual?
By the way, I wouldn’t ever deny their rights to write letters to the press or stand outside the States with their placards. Would you, Jaydee, if you had been in the States, voted not to give equal rights to the gay community? A straight (sic) answer please.

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92

Bee Lover

Martino

You are happy to boast of your enlightenment,the only light at the end of your tunnel at the moment is the train of common sense rolling right at you.
The filthy disgusting stuff you advocate makes me sick but then I’m not a scientist like you, Im just normal.
You should thank normal ones because wthout them you would not even exist. The normal ones make the children and the funny ones want to do filthy things with them.
If you want to do this dirty stuff, then do it with someone your age and do it quietly, us normal ones dont want to hear this horrible stuff.
The politicians agree 100% that kids can do it, well shame on them but its now legal.
I am a simple working bloke with a family I love, should anyone fiddle around my children wth this dirty stuff, they might have a lesson but not with a science book.
Keep your filth and dirty things to yourself

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94

Truth Man

Bee Lover:

You’re in the wrong century mate.

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96

Lee

Bee Lover

Lowering the age of consent was not about letting old men ‘fiddle’ with young boys. Rape, abuse and sexual assult are still illigal and those laws protect EVERYONE regardless of age, gender or sexuality.
It IS however about the age of which someone can CONSENT and why should that have carried on unequal……Why should a 16 year old boy and girl decide that they can have a baby yet a gay person is told they are not allowed to be gay until they are older…..it doesn’t make sense?
The thought of a 45 year old man with a 16 year old boy is just as disgusting as the thought of the same 45 year old man with a 16 year old girl.
SOME older people will always want to prey on younger people but there are laws protecting them…..lowering the age of consent does not jepodise any of these.

By the way, Being hetrosexual isn’t normal, it’s just more common!

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98

Jaydee

Martino

The danger of communicating on forums is that being brief and not picking up facial expresion etc. we can all misunderstand to a greater or lesser degree.

Publicly, I wont go in to detail but I will say this much. At a young age, I was very well “looked after” by a pleasant, kind man, three times my age. Fortunately,a neighbour knew a little more and warned my parents. I was never physically put through any unpleasant happenings. When I was removed, the next two lads were not so lucky. the first, was physically sorted out by the boys father and the second unfortunately took his life. The gent concerned was then seen by the Police and then took his own life.
To me this is a tragedy and is a vivid part of my childhood.
I also have two other unpleasant memories of adults that I have been very close to. Nice people, helpful people but unfortunately both had a real interst in helping young people. Because these people dont wear a long coat and both were very pleasant, young people gravitate toward them as they made them feel very special. I would never give details as the children concerned are now grown up and it would be wrong to raise up the past, but I cant erase what I have seen from my memory.

From these three instances, I would vote against 16 year old children being involves with the sexual act that is now permitted.

I am amazed that people such as school teachers and church people on our States are not aware of similar things, in fact, they must be, both church and school have had plenty to be embarrased about with this subject I can only presume that they are too weak to stand up for the defenceless of the population. I honestly do not believe that 45 people really believe truly, deeply, that this is a correct decision.
I hope that although you do not agree with me, you might see my reasoning.

Flying Scott

Neither made a personal attack on an individual, it was nothing more than somebody expressing a view. As for unnatural, well this isn’t exactly hard to work out. The fact that homosexuals needed a law passed specifically for them is proof enough that it is very unnatural. Two male organs dont mechanically work hence a law needs to be made that excludes heterosexuals, that enables gratification to take place.
It is interesting to note that in some countries, even those that are imprisoned for life, for very serious crimes draw the line at guys messing with boys. These are not choir boys, they are rough,wicked men and even they perceive the unpleasantness of such an act.

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100

Student Bob

Flyingscot, I could quite easily refer you to dozens of recent, peer-reviewed articles which reference the increased promiscuity, prevalance of STDs and occurences of depression/suicide within the gay community.

I choose not to because, I figure, live and let live. I’d argue that as a GP, Dr Williams felt a moral responsibilty to bring these matters to the public attention and he has my respect for doing so.

I’d have not commented on this topic at all, but for the slanderous accusations of homophobia being bandied about by Martino and Truth Man and numerous others. I say live and let live, I would like equality, but that means hetero views should be accepted too.

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102

Martino

Bee lover other people have said it for me. The only other thing to say is that you might be giving apiarists a bad name. I’ll answer Haslam’s silly jibe on another thread.

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104

Lee

Jaydee.

What you describe is truly awful and I feel for all those involved. This happened a long time ago from what you said so I’m guessing it was back in the days when the age of consent was still 21 for gay people and 16 for hetrosexual people.

It was illigal to have gay sex under 21 yet it still happened so that particual law did not protect your neighbours.

The age of consent is about equality for all regardless of sexuality, like I said in my previous post there are still laws agains abuse, rape, groming, harrasement, sexual assult etc that protect the vulnerable within our society……no one here is advocating that we get rig of these laws.

As far as homosexuality being unnatural, lots of things in life are unnatural:
Flying
Glasses
Hearing aids
Polyester
Tango

Do you avoid all these things??

If you’re talking about sexual acts between gay people being unnatural then do you only have sex for the purpose it was intended for: Procreation?
Have you never had sex for pleasure? Try it, it’s fun……it’s not all about having babies.

A hetosexual friend of mine said that he often does things to his girlfriend that dileberatly prevents them from procreating! Should this be against the law?

As far as the church having a say in what the age of consent should be…..no thanks!

We just have to look at the Vatican City as an example. They are against homosexuality, they are against contraception, they say mastibation is a sin, they are basically against any sexual act that isn’t for the the purpose of procreaction. And what, might you ask is their age of consent for both males and females? TWELVE! Google it if you don’t beleive me.

I personally beleive that the age of consent should be 18…….but whatever the age it should be equal for gay and straight people.

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106

Neil

James, I believe the film ‘American Beauty’was a drama ! and was described as “Satire” ,making the film no more than fiction. You are attempting to discredit Beekeeper by using a fictional event. Did you ever see the “Documentary” “Johny go home” ?. Make what you want of that. You may not like people who are not enlightened or think that the act of using a schoolboys/ teenagers anal passage for pleasure is perverse, but you”ll have to learn to live with it, its called “equality” ,and is that not what you want?. Im sure that will ring a bell for you.

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108

Dave Haslam

Martino

Silly Jibe eh??

Seems funny that for all your enlightenment, its your posts that seem to be causing the most animosity.

Bob has it spot on, only if people have the same opinion as you eh??

Its people like you that will set back relations between gays and non gays years with your self righteous claptrap and complete inability to accept that no-matter how much you pout and accuse or how high your pedestal is these people actually need a different approach.

Ironic really, because for the one throwing all the “bigot” claims at other people your simple inabilaty to accept any other viewpoint shows more bigoted tendancies than anyone.

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110

Flyingscot

@StudentBob….but not ONE peer reviewed article supporting Dr Williams claim that most convicted paedophiles are homosexuals….which was central to his claim.

At its starkest, Dr Williams used a public forum to utter un-truths in an attempt to influence public policy.

Mr Williams can write what he likes.

Dr Williams has a responsibility to the community – which he has breached.

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112

Martino

Oh diddums Dave. Have I made you angry? Do you hate me? Have I made you antipathetic towards gay people? What powers I must have.

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114

Paul Le Page

Bee Lover – can you please point out to me where I have said I agree with homosexual behaviour? I don’t recall saying that anywhere, in fact I’ve said totally the opposite!

I have tried to make my position clear from day one; that although I disagree with homosexual behaviour on the grounds of Biblical teachings:

- I accept that I live in a pluralistic society where not everyone is an adherent of my faith;

- I accept those who are not adherents of my faith will not accept or follow the teachings of the Bible;

- I accept that, as Christian faith (and the lifestyle that engenders) is a matter of individual conviction, although I will actively promote it I cannot and should not seek to impose it by force or seek for it to be imposed by law.

- I accept that homosexuals are equal in worth as fellow human beings. They are not inferior human beings because of their sexual orientation;

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116

Martino

“When I came to Guernsey it was nice, its changed a lot”

Apologies, Bee Lover, I had you down as an ill-educated ‘guern’ with no experience of the outside world.

Just shows you shouldn’t go jumping to conclusions…

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118

jon davidson

the gay age of consent, the gay factor as a whole should never be allowed in Guernsey,
i am ashamed that they have allowed this kind of wrong situation to be voted for even ahead of fathers rights, the states havent got a clue what to do.
fathers rights seem to be neglected (and im not a dad yet) but sort this out before the gays…………..there are many other things that need sorting before this ridiculous new law

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120

Truth Man

Jon Davidson:

You’re another one who sadly for you, was born in the wrong century. Homosexuality is no longer a social taboo. Luckily for homosexuals, it is people like you with your unfair, and discriminatory opinions, who are now the taboos, and there are laws that reflect this.

You need to try to accept that your current opinion arises from a lack of understanding on the subject, and a lack of will to allow equality.

Luckily for all minority groups these days, the developed world is led by Governments who do respect individuality (even though in the case the The States, it is behind the rest of the world by a number of years!).

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122

Truth Man

Arnald:

Excellent post I thought. In particular, thanks for the link. I’ve never seen David Cameron so uncomfortable, and I’ll be honest, on the basis of that interview I probably held him in higher regard than is justified. I think Ben Bradshaw might be right – does Cameron have the fundamental core belief to back his scripts?

It makes me wonder what other issues would he struggle on without a pre-written brief?

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124

Bee Hater

jon davidson I actually agree with you. I think its disgraceful that fathers dont have the proper rights over here, however I believe that this homosexual rights issue was important to kick start Guernsey into the 21st century and maybe fathers rights will follow on from this being passed, as a basic human rights and equality issue

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126

Bee lover

Paul Le Page

Dave Haslam March 30 pointed out how you stood and so I just answerd his remark.

I have said all of the truth and I am not s.aying any more on this topic, you all have the facts, what you do with them is your choice
Mike has summed it all up to conclude the matter.

On the subject of religion etc. Paul can you tell me why your bible doesnt say about looking out for kids and Henrys and the doctors does?

If we live in a society that can choose its lifestyle, where does it stop or do we just evolve and change laws as we invent new things.Alow me to be ridiculous just this once, if enough people wanted to return to having slaves, could we just make a law so that it was right, after all, it was the religious ones that stopped all that in the first place

Does your church believe in equal oportunity and employ muslims and homosexuals. If they do, then you at least are consistent and truthful. Providing you have the courage to tell other people. Mr Haslam seems to suggest that there is inconsistency.
Which church do you,Henry and the doctor go to for interest.

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128

Truth Man

Student Bob:

Come on Bob, you’re an intelligent guy (I think), you can do better than that.

1. I did not accuse Jane F of homophobia – I said that she is homophobic at worst, and ill informed at best – I asked her to return to the debate. I even suggested that she may just have used sloppy phraseology rather than being guilty of homophobia. I have no idea if she is homophobic or not, and I made that point clear.

2. I think you’ll find the nature Vs nurture argument in respect of sexuality has been sorted out – ask a person what their sexuality is and they will tell you. In my case, I am a heterosexual, I did not choose that sexuality, I simply am the way I am. I have worked with, and been friends with many homosexuals in my lifetime and they all insist it was not a ‘choice’. Question answered – and you’ll note that it is not based on my opinion. Therefore, I have nothing to keep in the closet. Being open minded however, if you can reference the research you mention I would be very interested to have a read. I would also point out that there are many studies that do not consider sexuality to be a choice – in your field of work you will also have access to those.

3. You wouldn’t have been repeating yourself. You have not pointed out any legitimate areas where heterophobia has been evident. Go on, take up the challenge.

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130

Paul Le Page

Bee Lover – I see, you made a judgment call on my entire standpoint based on one sentence by Dave Haslam – and you even got that wrong. You said “agree” whereas Dave actually said “accept.” Perhaps you might have been better informed about my standpoint if you had read my numerous posts on the subject on this, and other related articles on the website?

Clearly you haven’t looked at my posts or you wouldn’t have asked the questions you just have. I’ve written enough on the subject over the past two weeks to answer your questions clear enough if you care to look.

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132

Martino

Dave, yes, after spending a day away from these threads I think I may have misjudged your messages, so I’ll respond properly on the other thread (after the Arsenal v Barca match).

On this one just want to say welcome back Arnald. We haven’t always agreed but yours is a brilliant post. For the benefit of bee lover, abc and jon davison can I just repeat your concluding para?

“I’ve been horrified at how some posters on the concurrent threads about recognising human rights for homosexuals, can feel so comfortable describing members of their community with such degrading and sexually-obsessed language. Some people really do have issues. Just think if it were others describing your life as some irrationally derived perversion of their overheated and fearful imagination?”

Well said mate

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134

arapaho

@abc (@ arapaho: I never knew human-equine marriages were recognised under the American Constitution)I never said they were, but with the advent of gay marriages looming and mention of coming in line with the rest of the world to join the 21st century ,whats so great about that?? just because other people and countries do things dosent mean it,s good or right or ab fab or whatever, it just means that when some people see things done,they just got to do that too.

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136

Disciple

I can see that some people are beginning to question where Mr Le Page gets his views from. I think he is trying to be friends with everybody which is no bad thing but as we have seen,when the wolf and the rabbit come together a decision has to be made.
As many have said,we all have an opinion, and it is quite acceptable for him to share his thoughts on the issue.

As people are now questioning the people of God, this neds to be clarified.

Regardless of time, nation, political trend or media hype, the Word of God does not change.

Mr Le Page is expressing his own opinion,lets not mix that up with Gods Word.

The Bible says much about protecting children, widows,orphans, and the sick, lets not forget that.

It also has moral absolutes and so stealing was wrong 2,000 years ago, its wrong now, in Russia or Guernsey,doing unseemly things to children was wrong then and is now.

On the question of safety in churches, please be assured that many churches do not have equality as it has been described. My own particular church will have every youth worker “Enhanced Police checked” and in the same way that we would not advocate a young male heterosexual taking a young girl home alone, we would not put a practising homosexual in charge of the creche.

I would love to see everybody on this forum in our church, you are all loved by God to the point that His Son came from Heaven to save you.

God loves the homosexual very much and so should the church, however, when Gods Word and homosexual practice disagree, then Gods Words must be adhered to.

I thank God for His people who have kicked against wordly values and fought to free slaves as somebody said,run orphanages, feeding the hungry, helping the addicted,fighting disease. No, its not trendy, its not popular, financially it hurts,its demanding on time, but what a blessing to see Gods love working out practically.

I am sure Mr Le Page is a nice, helpful man who tries to comfort everybody and that is a great thing but on this occaision,his ducking and diving is bringing a bad name to whichever church he attends and by not stating whether his church supports his views on child protection, it gives a damaging view for those wondering if churches are safe places to send children.
If in doubt, dont listen to Mr Le Page or Disciple, turn to Gods Word.

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138

Bee Hater

@Disciple

Indoctrinated comes to mind

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140

Truth Man

Stiletto:

Can we keep this on topic please. People on here are having a debate about a serious issue. If this topic does not interest you, there are many other threads that may inspire you.

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142

Martino

Nice one for April 1st Disciple.
I almost fell for it!!

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144

Lee

Diciple.

You claim to know the word of God. However you are getting the words Homosexual and Peadophile mixed up.
A homosexual is someone who is attracted to a person of the same sex and partakes in relationships which are CONSENTING by both parties.
A peadophile is someone who commits unspeakable acts to the young and vulnerable children.
They are two totally seperate things, yes some gay people are peadophils as are some hererosexual men and women in equal measure.
Ofcourse you are right to have polic checks on anyone working with children but you are wrong to stop someone working on the grounds of their sexuality.

You claim that Gods word does not change and that his word has moral absolutes. Please answer me this then?

Would you sell one of your children to slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7? If not, would you condone or condem someone esle who sells their child?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 says that a man’s punishment for rape is to pay 50 pieces of silver to the woman’s father but he must marry the girl and is never allowed to divorce her.
Do you feel that the courts of Guernsey are gong against God’s moral absolutes by sending rapists to prison?

The book of Deuteronomy also goes on to say that if a betrothed (engaged/promised) is raped and does not cry out during her ordeal, she should be stoned to death. Do you think that the courts of Guernsey are turning away from Gods word because they do not punish rape victims? After all, the word of God does not change.

A homosexual must be put to death according to the bible? So should a man who works on a Sunday. God says both are sinners, God says both should be put to death.

Do you agree that a gay couple engaging in consenting sexual activity are commiting no less of a sin than a Doctor at the PEH who works on a Sunday?

As I’ve said in a previous post, should we look to the most holy country in Europe for our age of consent and copy what they do?
The Vatican City, a tiny land locked country with their own laws headed by God’s most holy man on earth, the Pope is a country where the age of consent for both male and felmale is TWELVE. If you don’t beleive me, Google it.

Please don’t think that I’m attacking the word of God, I’m not. I am mearly pointing out that I think some Christians use the bible to pass judgement on certain sectors of the community whilst ignoring other parts of it.

Why do you critisise a gay person when you won’t sand up and condem a woman who has been raped and was too afraid to scream out for help? Both are a sin, both punishable by death.

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146

Lynnie

@ Disciple
‘and in the same way that we would not advocate a young male heterosexual taking a young girl home alone, we would not put a practising homosexual in charge of the creche.’

The two are not the same at all and cannot be used in comparison. By not allowing a homosexual to look after a crèche of small children you are already determining that the child is in potential danger by being looked after by this person. Surely the requirement for looking after a crèche would be to have someone who has been police checked and has good references from previous similar roles?

One hand you say that the church welcomes homosexuality and on the other you’re stating that because of their sexual orientation they cannot be trusted with certain tasks.

Depending which study you look at on whichever particular day (there are many varying studies) there are reports stating that a high number of child molesters are homosexual. Which is why I presume that you made the above statement.

It is mainly Caucasian, 20 something heterosexual, American men who are serial killers yet we don’t get our panties in a bunch when a white, 26yr old, heterosexual American man wants to be a teacher or a doctor or any other profession which brings them into contact with a high amount of people.

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148

Disciple

I would like to apologise for a comment I made in the post above re staffing the creche, this was a very, very poor analogy.Editor = can you please amend to boys sleepover.
The two are very different and creche age group would not include children of the age being spoken about on this forum.

Apologies

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150

Martino

Ah, to Paul and others who have been responding to Bee Lover’s posts. We now know where he is coming from, quite literally:-

This is taken from the Wikipedia page on LGBT rights in Latvia:

“Most people in Latvia have prejudices against homosexuality, usually rooted in social conservatism and lingering preconceptions dating from the Soviet period. An example of this is the belief that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked phenomena.[8][9] Such popularly-held anti-gay sentiments have recently been increasingly exploited by various religious groups[10][11] and politicians.[4]
Lesbians and gays are often attacked in the streets or in the meeting places. Lesbians and gays can make no criminal charge against their attackers other than “hooliganism”.[12] Until 1996, it was also legal to beat homosexuals, as long as they followed Rule of Thumb.[12] As well, people who were raped by a person, or persons, of the same sex could not file a police report.[12]…..”

Check out the rest at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Latvia
but if you google Latvia with gay, prejudice, persecution, rights, homophobia, oppression, bigotry or other relevant words you get huge amounts of stuff on the terrible human rights abuses against gay people in that country. I really was shocked but don’t take my word for it. check it our yourselves…..

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152

Disciple

Firstly, apologies again for the very poor wording I used re a creche,this was totally inappropriate and I tried to get it changed as no other posts had uploaded but when all posts were visible it was too late. Sorry.
Lee,
Thank you for your thoughtful and balanced comments.You seem a genuine guy.
1) The hardest one first – If you are a Bible scholar then forgive my simple explanation but not everyone is familiar with this book.The Bible is divided into two main sections, the first contains History, Proverbs, Songs and many prophecies, some have been fulfilled others are yet to happen. It also contains Jewish Law which is what you refer to.
At this time,a priest would offer sacrifices for peoples sins.
The second section is called the New Testament, which deals with modern day Christianity which Paul Le Page has covered very well in a previous post. Basically that Jesus paid for all of our sins when He died on the cross for us.
Unless you are an orthodox Jew, we now follow the example of Jesus Christ and so much of the teaching we would look to, would be found in The New Testament. Example – The ten commandments are in the Old Testament and in the New Testament they are summed up as Love The Lord your God and love your neighbour as youself and so although different, they are the same, ie Do not steal (OT) Love your neighbour,(NT)obviously you won’t steal either their wife, their money, their borrowed DVD’s etc.
I take your point, that the Old Testament Jewish law is different to the Gentile Christian New Testament. You are correct.

You mention another division of the church and the age of consent, I havent looked it up but you seem very level, I’m sure you are right. I’m tempted to be very flippant on this one as there does seem to be one area of “christendom” that has had a history of problems in this area,should we follow their example, I would say definately not. They are children and need protection.
Can I expand – imagine a child that visits the church because he has been bullied or bereaved, he is given a listening ear and looks to the priest with trust and confidence. As time passes and a church camping holiday takes place, he gets unhealthily close to the priest and regrets it after the event, this child has the battle of the raped woman, exept hes just a boy. Priest says “He was consenting” Lad says “He said it was a good idea, and I just did it but I didnt know what was going to happen and he has always been nice to me”
Having a law set at 12 puts children at risk, so I believe its wrong.

Your point that I confuse homosexuality and paedophilia possibly comes from the fact that we view the age of adulthood differently. I believe that a man who has sexual relations with a sixteen year old boy is very wrong,a)He is a boy not a man b)The act of Sodomy is wrong at any age c)He has abused someone, its worse than hitting them,a fight is soon forgotten but to do this act with a boy will leave him damaged in many different ways.
Again, you are correct, paedophilia is very different to homosexuality.

Your point about giving responsibilities to those who have different sexual practices – It really boils down to child protection and being above reproach. As I mentioned, we would not let a teenage lad however pleasant,take a young girl out on trips one to one, simply because it puts both of them at risk of temptation? accusation? gossip? Similarly, we would not permit an “acting” homosexual to sleep in the boys tent at a teenage boys camp, for the same reason, temptation? accusation? gossip?
It is no different than giving a practising alcoholic a job in a bar, it doesnt mean he will drink however he needs to be protected from temptation or accusation should alcohol go missing.

Finally, I think I’ve covered your points, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being born a homosexual any more than being born with asthma. I have known several homosexuals male and female and it is obvious thay are made differently, the mannerisms,voice, hair growth, physical make up. This is who they are and they are valued by God and should be valued by everybody but particularly Gods people.
Where the division comes is to remain in keeping with Gods law, that person has to abstain from same sex relations. This must be absolutely devastating for a person to whom this would be a natural thing. A person in this predicament needs every bit of support from family, friends and without question, the church.
To those who might say this is not equality, well the same thing applies to the single hetrosexual, The Bible does not permit him to fornicate just because he has not found a wife, this to is hard, but is Biblical teaching.
Sorry its a bit long, and thanks for the points raised.

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154

Disciple

Paul Le Page

I dont think I need to go through your post piece by piece as I believe that we both know where we are coming from. If I have misjudged you in any way, then I apologise.
My concern was when the public began questioning which side you were on and how that tied in with, I think one person said “a deity who doesnt agree” again forgive me if I’m wrong but another said something like do your church agree with protecting children and you answered if I remember, quite evasively and did not reply.This is not helpful when people already hear about choirboy type jokes and allegations. We have to hold our hands up and say that in some areas it is more than allegation, it really happens.
I was concerned because our Heavenly Father has a big heart for children and their welfare and the church should be the one place they can be safe.
I agree with befriending those who do not share our beliefs but not at the expense of child protection.
Maybe I’ve missed it but I have not seen you disagree with lowering the age of sodomy to 16.
I have seen that you feel that we should not expect a non Christian island to adhere to Christian beliefs and I can see that, however the Bible teaches that we are to be salt (stop the rot/preserve) and light (show the way)
As Christians, we are to speak out the truth, certainly we will not be popular as we have seen in the papers. But once people have been made aware of the truth, they are in a position to make an informed choice.

I hope that I never gave anyone the impression that I thought you were not to be trusted with young people, I never thought or meant anything like that for a moment.

In a nutshell, my concerns were that you made negative remarks some time back about the guys with placards and remarks were also made hinting at Christians who use a King James version of the Bible. I don’t use one as I can’t understand it but I would not make fun of those that do. Re the placard men, if they stood quietly and didn’t insult people as they walked past, and in their hearts they really believe that their Saviour (I presume they are Christians) does not want to see 16 year old children put through the proposed change of law, then are they not to be respected for their stand in the face of adversity.

If I remember you also said that we should not judge,the problem with staying quiet on these issues is, who will protect the weak, it sounds very pious to say, I dont judge anybody, but Christ had much to say about unscrupulous land owners,money lenders, soldiers who abused power, even religious people who took advantage of others etc.
I believe that we have to stand up even though we will suffer similarly to Paul Williams or John Henry.

I don’t doubt for one moment that you are a born again, sincere, Bible reading Christian, but some posters obviously had difficulty in matching your posts with yout God.

Hey, I made a huge blunder using a thoughtless example, so I’m not saying I’ve got it sorted but I do feel that it would helpful if you said whether you would have voted for or against the law permitting sixteen year old boys either receiving or doing sodomy. I know you say you would prefer 18 but that was not the vote before our States. I see your comments re the age anomalies but thats what we’ve got and so its irrelevant.
Nothing personal, I’m sure you’re a sound guy, I would love to see you as clear on the sixteen year old debate as you are in your faith and trust in Christ.
Have a great Easter.

One disciple to another.

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156

Paul Le Page

Thanks for your response Disciple – I think we all get a bit wound up on this subject; it is after all an emotive one. The reason why I got so annoyed was because I had posted a lot on this subject that spelled out my views clearly and I didn’t like being misrepresented by Bee Lover, who had jumped to conclusions without reading them. I appreciate my comments were spread over many pages so it takes some time; nevertheless I couldn’t help but conclude by the rather aggressive response that he seemed more interested in ranting and winning an argument instead of learning the truth.

On to my comments re placards: I’m sure John Henry et al had good intentions and truly believed what they did was right; I just didn’t think their actions were helpful. Let me explain: my rather stern response was the culmination of frustration about the way homosexuals are treated by many Christians, who seem to single them out as a ‘worse kind of sinner’ instead of loving them as equal human beings, equally in need of a saviour – no better or worse than you and I. Judging by the extreme reactions I’ve seen from some Christians, you’d think that homosexuals were modern day lepers, to be avoided at all costs in case they infect you with something. Such hypocritical, ungodly and bigoted claptrap is as contrary to the attitude of Christ as you can get; more synonymous with the Pharisees than our Lord.

That is my opinion however, and I’m quite aware some of my fellow disciples think the same about me attending the party last Thursday. Both actions are equally open to misrepresentation (i.e. John Henry is now perceived by some as a raving bigot; I am perceived by some as a ‘sell out’ who supports child abuse).

In response to your question about the Age of Consent, Martino asked me a similar question before the vote on a previous article. If I can quote, he asked: “To Paul, as a supporter of equalisation I trust that you will (albeit reluctantly) end up supporting lowering the gay age of consent to 16 given that raising the heterosexual age of consent to 18 stands a snowball’s chance in hell of becoming local law?” My response was “…if the States choose not to follow that path and instead choose to equalise at 16 then on the basis of my view that legislation should be impartial I will accept it. I will not say that I positively support it though, as for reasons I’ve stated previously I think 16 is too young for anyone to be making decisions about sexual activity. I appreciate this might sound like I’m splitting hairs with you but I’m sure you understand that there is a subtle difference between “accepting” something and “supporting” it.”

I’m not sure if this answers your question adequately. This is a very complex issue and I don’t envy the States members with religious convictions like mine who had to vote, holding in tension the pluralistic nature of our society and their strong convictions.

In my opinion the age of consent should be the age of adulthood, which is why I have strongly supported those Deputies like Dave Jones who have called for a universal age of adulthood. Personally I would prefer that age to be 18 however I would also accept 16 – so long as there is consistency, and the law is actually enforced. As a caveat, it’s interesting to note that in Biblical times, someone was considered an ‘adult’ at age 12, so although our culture is very different, if we are to accept the Bible as our guide in such things I think there is an overwhelmingly strong precedent to argue that someone is mature enough at 16 to make decisions about their own life and accept the responsibility for them.

For those reasons, hypothetically speaking: if I was in the States, I would have probably tabled an amendment to equalise at 18; If that had failed (which I imagine would have been the case) I would have voted to equalise at 16 whilst standing with the likes of Deputy Jones in calling for consistency in our laws to reflect when someone is an adult. I would have also called for the law to be strongly enforced in order to protect the young from predation by adults of ALL sexual orientations.

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158

Arnald

Disciple
It is not a “moral vacuum”, but a stark lack of education in ethics, philosophy and social sciences. The problem with the religious fundamentalist approach is that the teaching of those aspects of life are too narrow for people to relate to asthey go about their everyday lives.

Our present society is hell-bent, you are right there, but it is because we are determined to cannibalise our environment, exploit the poor, and concentrate focus on the ideal that wealth, and its preservation, is an expression of duty and devotion.

Basically, the whole set up, which has deep roots in the Christian church, was rotten at its outset. The pillars of power lay in the hands of the greedy and ruthless. Only the names of the institutions have changed over centuries. It’s taken that long for workers, women, and various minorities to be recognised within this framework. That is an appalling track record for a system that purportedly preaches the word of God.

It is nothing to be proud of. Instead of adhering to a failed order, the Church should be evolving to accommodate the wider world.

“God’s people” is the whole of Humanity, past, present and future. There is no god of retribution, no god of justice, no god of reason. There are only social interactions and the common human goal of development. To strive to be a better person.

Unfortunately, for most people in Guernsey it would seem, being a better person means to become richer. Richer through the service of the finance industry, the system that our two most popular charities, Christian Aid and ActionAid, are the most vocal, and increasingly listened to, detractors.

Read their reports. That is God’s work.

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160

Disciple

Paul Le Page

Thanks for taking the time to write again,it seems as though we sing out of the same songsheet.
I dont know about homosexuals being “worse sinners” I can’t see that being born with a different make up is a sin at all, as I mentioned to a previous writer, the church should be the one place for all people to find acceptance. As we have both said, God does not accept the sin whether pride, adultery, or heterosexual fornication, but the person should always find a listening ear, acceptance and encouragment in Gods house.

Thanks for your update, I didn’t intend to cause any upset.

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162

Disciple

Phil

Your points are more the style of the Russian Bee keeper, I’ll let him answer.
I had actually noticed that the majority of people don’t really agree with the ten commandments. No thats not true, lets rewind – they dont like to ABIDE by the ten commandments.
The hypocrites only cry out for the ten commandments when they have had something stolen, when they have lost a partener to another man/woman, when they are falsely accused.
I have never heard anybody say to the law, don’t worry about the stealing, its old Bible Bashing stuff, kids nick cars these days, I’ll buy another one.

Thats your views,you are at liberty to share them as I am mine.

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164

Disciple

Arnold

Thanks for the post. I keep thinking I should stop writing but comments like yours amaze me and I cant resist commenting.

What you have written is almost identical to that which we read about in the Bible and hear about at church. If it was worded slightly differently it could have come from a pulpit.You sound like a person that actually believes in Biblical principals. You use the word ethics, I used morals, the Bible tells us to manage the earth and take care of all that has been entrusted to us, you are angry at those who would plunder our earth, The Bible has much to say about wealth, corruption and greed.
I can see that you blame the church and depending on which sect and era, you have every reason. I think if we use the word Christian it would be more accurate as “The Church” suffers the same fate as any football club, there are those that claim to be supporters but are involved for the wrong reasons and live lives nothing like their Saviour.
You point out that we are all of Gods creation, that is true but as you point out all through your post,we have all gone very wrong and naturally just want to look after No 1. We can be more than just Gods creation, he wants to have each individual as His child and following His instruction. Can you imagine a society where children obeyed their parents, the poor and disadvantaged were treated with respect, where our recources were managed with care, health put before wealth. Unfortunately this will not happen until a future time known as the millenium (thats another thing) as the crowd at the exocution of Jesus said “We will not have this man to rule over us” this is what the majority of our world shouts today, hence the world we live in.
I agree that you can live a good life using Biblical principals of caring/sharing/respect etc but why not belong to Gods family.
Its not trendy and definately not popular and I guess that many would feel that the disrimination and hatred faced would be too high a price to pay.
I don’t think you and I believe too differently, just our motivation is different.

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166

Paul Le Page

A bit of information for readers:

When discussing the age of consent it may surprise some people to learn that the absolute age of consent (when there is no legal defence possible) is 13, not 16 under current UK law. It is my understanding from someone who consulted with the Law Officers, the same would apply in Guernsey.

Taken from the Terrence Higgins Trust:

“In England and Wales the age of consent for all young people, regardless of whether you are gay, straight or bi, is 16. This means that penetrative sex and sexual touching with anyone who is aged between 13 and 15 is illegal and could lead to prosecution.

If a young person is aged 12 or under, sexual intercourse and touching is an absolute offence and will be treated as rape or sexual assault.”

“If two young people who are both under the age of consent and around the same age have sex together then it is unlikely that either will be prosecuted, as long as the sex is consensual and there has been no coercion. If one of the young people is over 16 then they could face prosecution and up to 5 years in prison, and a person aged 18 or over having sex with a young person under 16 could face up to 14 years in prison.”

http://www.tht.org.uk/informationresources/sexandsexuality/sex/isitlegal/

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168

Dave Haslam

I go away for a day or 2, come back on here and all hell (or all heaven) breaks loose.

Paul LP

Sorry if I inadvertently dropped you in it with this thread, I think I had your views understood, and I think I still do, but sorry if my brief interpretation of them has caused you some aggro on here.

Cor eh la, its bringing us all together this eh??

All we need is Arnald and his enemies to have a love in and were sorted!!

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170

Disciple

Hi Martino,

Sorry I did not respond to your April fool comment.I got the joke, but didnt think it needed a response.

Re the length of posting, I sort of agree that they are too long but I think the people that made the points deserve a proper answer. I believe that they are sincere people who are not looking to just throw insults around but have genuine concerns.
Probably you know the people that write on here, I’ve never done it before and so I dont know who I’m writing to, so I answered as clearly as I was able.
I split the posts to individuals so that they do not have to read other peoples that they are not interested in.
I hope I’m not “infected” by Christ, but He has had an “effect” on my life.

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