Hands off, UK is told
Tuesday 30th March 2010, 2:30PM BST.
THE UK Government has been told by a high-level report released today to keep its hands off Guernsey.
An inquiry by the Justice Select Committee into the Crown Dependencies faced calls for the Ministry of Justice to step in to settle grievances with the islands.
But in a move that bolsters the islands’ drive for greater independence, the committee said that the dependencies were democratic, self-governing communities with free media and open debate.
‘The independence and powers of self-determination of the Crown Dependencies are, in the view of both the UK Government and the island authorities, to be set aside only in the most serious circumstances, such as a fundamental breakdown in public order or of the rule of law, endemic corruption in the government or the judiciary or other extreme circumstance,’ the report said.
The Ministry of Justice is the arm of the UK Government responsible for the islands.
It has been told to give clearer guidance to other Whitehall departments which conduct business with the islands.
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Pity,
would welcome a bit more influence On Uk and governmental professionalism here.
Gnsy is clearly to small to survive on its own and we are complemently dependent on the strenght of the Sterling (only) for our wealth, so we better join forces.
Hope you agree!
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If we find fossil fuels here they will soon reel us back; maybe even send a Marine detachment for our own benefit of course.
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that is a rather obvious wind up attempt
better be a bit more subtle next time ;-)
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uk can leave us alone we are doing okay ,
let them muck up the uk we can manage our own affairs
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Brit on Guernsey:
1. I suggest you return to school and learn to punctuate and form coherent sentences.
2. Should we not be distancing ourselves from Sterling? It is destined only to weaken further. Why would we want to join forces and be stuck with a weak currency indefinitely?
3. You don’t really think the UK government is professional do you? It is simply a corrupt closed community for career politicians to make their name and a lot of money. Very few British politicians care about Britain, they are in it for themselves.
4. There’s a boat leaving for England every day.
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@Brit on GSY, any local person is also classed as British, it says so on their passport…
You would welcome more influence from the UK? I imagine you’re the type that likes Labour ruining the UK, I hope we never join forces with the UK. And we stay independent.
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They can keep there hands off our island they have buggered up there own country beyound repair they need not think they are going to drag us down the same road.
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It’s nice to see a little comedy now and then;
and reading this latest makes for a good laugh,
My word read their daily papers listen to the likes of Blair,
Yeah right they’ll help:
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Hey, The Rat – you certainly can manage your own affairs, just not very well! If my last visit a month ago is anything to go by, you’re doing a great job of mucking the island up all by yourselves!
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@the rat
“uk can leave us alone we are doing okay ,
let them muck up the uk we can manage our own affairs ”
We can muck things up without the UK’s help?
Incinerator etc. :-)
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“Brit on Guernsey” i’ll say to you what i say to any other English/British person who dislikes how we do things on our island. If you dont like it leave. You all like to claim sovereignty over us when we’re making some money but if that stopped you’d drop us in a second just like you did during the second world war. A lot of us dont even feel british and we’d all still be speaking our own language if the English hadn’t stamped it out in the schools. The only way corruption would become rife over here is if some of your corrupt thieving ministers were allowed to interfere (or have you forgotten the expenses scandal so quickly? not to mention the “cab for hire” mp’s ready to influence policy for cash). UK intervention is the last thing we need.
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One does rather wonder how authoritative a report can be that repeats, without criticism, a previous report: Kilbrandon explains that the basis on which the Crown has ultimate responsibility for
the good government of the Crown Dependencies stems partly from the fact that, with the
UK, they are all part of the British Isles.
What nonsense!
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Ah well:
Methinks it’s about time we took another little trip over to Hastings.
They’ve got Robin Hood_ and now it looks as if they’ve got another of the same mint in their big mouth Blair.
It’s about time we had our own passports, with our crest, not that bloney as per today.
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Guys
Sorry don’t be upset. I admittely do have a house on the continent. Life with the Euro, living in the right timezone, in protection of the EU, consuming all the flavours of life the variety of the continent has to offer does make up a bit. And Guernsey life, it’s fair to say has become a bit more british lately (as I understood it was in the past more European). If you do not agree with me and you favour independency more why not adopt the Euro for more financial stability (we are an import economy after all) and adopt the timezone. Maybe we are finding a second strong tie next to the UK and makes us stronger in the long run. Is perhaps this a fair alternative to suggest?
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David Cranch – quite right. The Kilbrandon Report was wrong when it was written and is even more wrong now.
Given that we are a self-determining democracy, it would be an offence against many principles of international law and Human Rights for the UK to seek to exert control.
To everyone else – stop biting at Brit on Guernsey’s trolling.
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Leaving aside any obvious cheap shot about the UK stepping in only where there may be “endemic corruption in the government”, I broadly agree that the subtle change in the UK”s attitude towards Crown Dependencies is worrying.
It seems to me that many bureaucrats in the UK government do not fully understand our constitutional position and often make statements that imply that Guernsey is somehow subservient to Westminster. This is absolutely not the case and we need our own government to stand their ground where such conflicts arise.
A key concern is the fact that the UK Treasury are desperately trying to find ways to attack our financial services sector to try to extract tax revenues where none are due. While they may not have any legal or legitimate right to do this,the drip drip drip of misinformation about our constitutional position only undermines our credibility as a self governing jurisdiction and indirectly strengthens their position.
Independence from the UK really should be an absolute last resort but, if our historic constitutional rights are being eroded, then we should at least have contingency plans to go down that route.
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Oh dear,I just logged on to this site for the first time ever to learn about Guernsey, only to find that you don’t like us Brits very much – I so wanted to come and visit. Are we still welcome?
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The fact is that over the last few years we have seen unprecedented attempted interference in our affairs by various UK politicians ignorant of our constitutional position. We were blamed for the global meltdown by EU and UK politicians, which was quite ridiculous and this current Labour administration has actively been working with others within the EU in attempting to force fiscal and tax changes upon us, simply because like the EU they despise low tax jurisdictions that are attractive to investors and savers from their own country.
Our legislation has been forensically scrutinised by the Ministry of Justice to such an extent that at one time it caused a serious log jam, with Guernsey legislation taking forever to gain the Queens assent through the Privy Council. This investigation by the shadow scrutiny MOJ team has recorded in its report that we are a mature grown up democracy with our autonomy enshrined in history and that independence cannot be interfered with except in very exceptional circumstances. One of Lyndon Trotts real strengths whether you love him or not, is that he protects vehemently our independence and will tell all those who wish to try and blur the edges of our constitutional position that we simply won’t stand for it and will defend it without question. I agree with those that say this is a useful review as it strengthens our position not weakens it. I also agree with those who point to the real mess that is the UK in its present state, we often get accused of bad government on this island and yes we do change our minds and rethink policy after taking a long time to decide what is best for Guernsey but I know this much, we are significantly better governed than are the UK residents, who have a parliament that is dishonest and has within its number people who have committed fraud and deception on a grand scale. I fully accept that sometimes we make mistakes as a government but we are quick to put them right where we can and improve our services to the very best level we can afford. For those who think the UK should have more say in our affairs and who want to live under their influence, then I say your choice is obvious. Our autonomy is one of the very few things I would die in a trench to protect.
I also agree with David Granch, we are not part of the British isles.
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Not true Harry, Guernsey folk just don’t like those who come to these shores and immediately want to change everything, I understand you have the same problem in your country. Guernsey is a great place for a holiday.
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Oh dear. Arguing for keeping the UK out of Guernsey because we’re doing fine on our own. Are we?! I’d love to know if anyone has ever done any significant research in to where we would be politically and economically if we were completely severed from the UK (and had been for some years). Would we really be better off alone? I’m not sure we would.
And as for those who say the UK would want us back when we have something to offer (oil, money etc)… the same can be said for us here. We don’t want the UK, until they provide us with an income, products, services, ideas, laws etc.
Are we sure we’re not just suffering from ‘Small Island Syndrome’?
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Harry – don’t worry, we are all “Brits” in the wider unofficial sense of the word (I feel that I’ve left myself open to a response from Eric there…)
It is just that most of us are rightly proud of and passionate about Guernsey, its history and heritage, what it stands for today and where it is or should be heading. Part of that heritage is the subtle relationship with the English Crown and, by default (only), Westminster. Most of us will support England in international sport, yet we will strongly resist any actions by the UK which assume that we are a possession.
Any visitor who respects and appreciates what he is visiting is welcomed with open arms. Those who sit in Westminster and assume that they have rights over us that they do not, are resisted.
Come and visit. You’ll love it.
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Truth Man
Good post
Truthbeknown I dont really think we could have any idea of what the true effect to Guernsey would be unless it actually happened. I dont think any amount of research at whatever cost, could ever determine the true oppurtunites and threats to the island of independence.
And if it ever did happen, I’m sure not all of the anticipated fears/ benefits would come true, that said I bet we’d get some real unforseen events that no-one predicted.
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TL-
I think you are off the mark about *digging at the Brits.
Surely you mean the Anglo-Saxons:
Like so many in this world, The BRITS, were dominated by the ‘Saxons’
Heap big difference sahib.
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We are actually part of the british isles, but that is just a geological fact not a constitutional issue!
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Yes, we are doing fine….no waste strategy, no sewage strategy, states that waste 11 MILLION pounds changing their mind, daily burglaries and vandalism, abbatoir closing, dislike of foreigners, dislike of finance industry, broken airport runway, schools crumbling….no please, we are doing fine!!!!!! Come to Guernsey for a holiday, swim in our CLEAN sea, meet our welcoming locals (as long as you do not stay)
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Actually I believe that we are part of the British Isles (purely a geographical term). But we are not part of Great Britain (a political/constitutional term).
Harry Dean – we love Brits. Its the UK Government that we aren’t so fond of.
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I want to comment on the part of the MOJs report regarding the Barclays influance on Sark being an important facet of whether the UK does keep its “hands off” our issues in the future.
This is a critical issue in future relations with powerful political entities such as the UK and European Union governments that our Islands do depend on as the hosts of our autonomy.
The rise of a nation/city/island State that is operating outside the juristiction of any of the above is something that is being incubated by the Baliwick of Guernsey on Sark currently. This is one of the most likely reasons that the policy of “hands off” could be changed one day.They would institute this change by retracting the whole Crown Dependancys status in order to bring the rogue island into line.If they could do it on a carribean island that had gone bad,as they did recently they can do it to us to.
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I agree with Dave Jones that this is a useful report as long as it is followed up and most the recommendations instigated which will clarify how Guernsey is representation in other jurisdictions by the Ministry of Justice or other delegated UK Ministries. The evidence (130pqges) in many respects criticises the UK Treasury department for an apparent lack of support in Iceland during the Icelandic Banking Crisis. The UK Treasury were delegated by the Ministry of justice to represent Guernsey’s Government in 2008 when Landsbanki Guernsey was put into administration and agreed that they would act for Guernsey in negotiations with the Icelandic Government. To cut a long story short, during 2009 it has become increasingly obvious that the UK Treasury were doing very little except pursuing their own interests, dangling both the Guernsey States and the Isle of Man Governments like puppets on a string whilst they pursued their own interests to the detriment of the Landsbanki Guernsey Depositors, so much so that The Chief Minister, through pressure from depositors that nothing was being done, took his own delegation to Iceland in August 2009. The UK Treasury who were meant to be involved replied to Guernsey towards the end of September 2009, one month too late, after the visit had been completed. It is this type of inaction that has been highlighted and the fact that the UK “have a duty” and an “Obligation” to act on our behalf and they failed in that duty and it is in this area that Guernsey’s situation must be clearly identified and probably more power placed in Guernsey’s hands to control elements of its international representation or have its own unbiased representative in the Ministry of justice.
Lets hope Policy Council is going to demand a report from UK Treasury on how Guernsey’s interests were represented in Iceland since October 2008 ( When Landsbanki Guernsey went into administration)
This was only one area of the report which makes interesting reading and can be found at:
Report: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmjust/56/56i.pdf
Witnesses: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmjust/56/56ii.pdf
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po boy
I take your point, but Turks & Caicos have a completely different constitutional arrangement – and the level of corruption and lack of good governance was extreme.
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Pied Piper
No, I mean Brits. We are all Brits in that we are part of the British Isles (which as mentioned above is just a geographical term and has no political, cultural or ethnic meaning)
We are certainly not all Anglo Saxons. The Celts would have something to say about that.
But to address your comment, it is interesting to note that a recent Time Team programme revealed that the vast majority of English citizens are actually celtic in origin.
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Cheers Dave and TL
Will get my tickets booked.
I did visit once many years ago and found it all so clean, tidy and beautiful – just sitting at the Idle Rocks and watching the world go by – wow.
You guys must keep it all the same and resist all change and interference from those who do not have to live with the consequences
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I’m a Guernseyman, a Channel Islander
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Four men standing on Jerbourg point, an Englishman an Irishman a Scot and a Guernseyman.
How do you tell the Guernseyman?
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A key issue here, is peoples understanding of what Guernsey is, I have to explain this a lot, and these are the facts.
1. Guernsey is part of Great Briton, historically, “Greater Brittany” as England was part of Brittany, “france” and that is where the word comes from, being the extended part of Brittany.
2. The Queen’s official title in Guernsey is, “The Duchess Of Normandy” being from the Norman conquest.
3. We are NOT part of the United Kingdom, and the United Kingdom is NOT the same as Britain.
4. “Crown Possession” is greatly missuses, it doesn’t mean we belong to the Queen and thus to England and thus to the United Kingdom, it simply means we have to pass governmental decisions via the crown.
and this is what i’m unsure of
1. If Guernsey is not part of the UK is it a Country?
2. Why isn’t this taught in schools?
I had to look all this up when asked after joining university
BTW. Don’t feed the trolls.
REFRENCES
C.I.A. world fact book, “they seem to think we are a country”
Guernsey GOV website
Accumulated knowledge
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I feel I must take issue with J Simpson
First of all we DO have a waste strategy and that is to minimise and recycle our waste, leaving a small residue to be treated. The States have not wasted 11 million, as part of those costs were alterations to Longue Hougue in order to create decent access for whatever facility is eventually situated there. Yes some money has been wasted and that is unfortunate there is no denying that but we will save much more in my view by adopting the course of action on waste we have chosen. We also have a working party looking at our future sewage disposal and the treatment for that problem. Our beaches and our costal waters have just been rated as some of the cleanest in Western Europe, certainly cleaner than the UK and several Mediterranean resorts that pump their untreated sewage into the sea, I think there are 14 UK coastal resorts that do exactly the same, it is not ideal I grant you but as I said the problem is being addressed
The old abattoir will be replaced with a new facility in due coarse, something Guernsey has always done when old buildings used traditionally are no longer fit for purpose, for example Schools, hospitals, social housing, sports facilities, police headquarters, prison, passenger terminals etc and yes the schools building programme has still some way to go but it will get done as we can afford it. As for crime it has been on the increase for some time and I know as a Minister the Home department are doing what they can to bring the current levels down, in any community there is a certain amount of crime and Guernsey is no different in that regard.
The alleged dislike of foreigners is over played in my view, yes there are people that do not like anyone who is not pure Guernsey coming to live here but they are a very small minority within the population. What the local people dislike more, is those who choose to come and live and work here unpacking their cases on arrival and then setting about trying to change Guernsey into a plastic replica of the place they just left. The same goes for the finance industry most people realise that it has given us the financial life blood this island needs to function. What some do not like is when business leaders who have come to Guernsey and who have prospered in this island then decide that they want to change the way the island is governed in order to better suit there own ends. As for your last comment, it is true that we do have laws to control the number of people who are allowed to settle here, we are no different than many other countries who have immigration controls. If we didn’t, the quality of life would be unbearable as we all struggled for space, we would be even more over populated than we are at present and that is clearly not in the best interests of anyone. My last point is this, we do not owe anyone outside this island a single penny, we have secured our air routes and fuel supplies, we have in the main first class public services and a secure environment for our children to grow up in, breathtaking landscape and a bright future, we have the political will and in due coarse the resources to improve on our islands public services even further, which is more than can be said about the UK at present. We have also kept taxes and charges at reasonable levels and if you want all the outstanding infrastructure issues fixed tomorrow then we can do that quite easily by putting up taxes to rates seen in most of Europe.
I think we are in pretty good shape and I will defend this islands record on governance robustly because I believe we have done fantastically well as a community over the years.
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@Neil Inder
He’s the short one with dark hair complaining that when he was a lad jerboug point was a local place for local people?
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@Joshua
Are we part of Great Briton?
I know we’re part of the British Isles but Great Briton is made up of England, Scotland and Wales hence – The United Kingdom of Great Briton and Northern Ireland aka UK.
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1. Guernsey is part of Great Briton, historically, “Greater Brittany” as England was part of Brittany, “france” and that is where the word comes from, being the extended part of Brittany.
Back to school for you! Britain is named after the Prettanic isles, the name recorded by Pytheas. The P became a B under the Romans.
Brittany was called Little Britain, often believed to have resulted from Celtic resettlement from South West Britain, the original Celts or Gauls in Armorica (previous name) probably having been driven out or supressed by Germanic tribes after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the British Celts having been pressurised by the Angles and Saxons.
Guernsey was part of Britanny until the Normans conquered the Cotentin and by doing so probably bought the Channel Isles into the Norman fold (there is no record of the latter). Brittany in any event was a vassal state of Normandy, its King Conan features in the Bayeux Tapestry getting owned by William and Harold. The Bretons made up one flank of the Norman army in that flukey little affair back in 1066.
Guernsey isn’t a country proper as it is not fully sovereign, its inhabitants not having the power to govern themseles fully. Mrs Windsor still has to rubber stamp certain areas of legislation (extra territorial, taxation,changes to the written and the customary law) and she follows the advice of the Privy Council on whether or not to do so.
The Privy council is generally represented by a couple of ministers of the UK government of the day, I think at one stage it was Balls and Milliband? God help us.
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Joshua – I agree that there is much confusion, but to correct you on one point: “Great Britain” has a definite meaning – England, Scotland and Wales. Great Britain is part of the UK, the other part being Northern Ireland.
Therefore we are not part of Great Britain. You may have only been talking in the historical origin sense, but that just confuses people further!
I also thought that the Queen was referred to as the Duke of Normandy, despite being female, but may be wrong on that. We really should toast the Duke of Normandy at formal dinners, rather than the Queen.
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Joshua, I don’t know where to begin with all the mistakes in your first point. But leaving that aside, has anybody else noticed how difficult it is to comment on any aspect of this thread concerning Sark? The page with that part of the story doesn’t have comments enabled. In fact most pages which mention the B****** Brothers don’t have comments enabled. I wonder why that is? Perhaps there’s a clue in the grovelling apology on p. 2 today…
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TL.
‘I disagree with all you write on this blog.
You’ve been, like so many, bought.
The Norman empire was far greater than the other empire you seem to spoon over,
Read it up; read about Sicily, Jerusalem. the Pope, it goes on for ever.
Brittany. (Bretagne) was so named because so many BRITS; disillusioned by the Saxons fled to that part of the country we know now as France: and settled there. (little Britain as they called it) note the Saxons were never mentioned; at least not with a gentle word-
Of course it is of no avail to speak of such things. your mind is locked on what you wish to believe.
The Scots will never forgive you for the brutality dished out to Wallace; the Saxons called him traitor, A man who fought for his country.
The whole rotten history of the Saxons is deplorable.
I am a Guernsey man, and wish to have no truck with the Saxons, I do have my reasons, and they started at school age when we had English teachers, they never let pass a chance to belittle Guernsey people; as they do even today, read some of the postings on this blog, they , the Saxons have always had an exaggerated idea of their own importance.
But the world is seeing this nowadays and that is why they try hard to ¨keep up.
Brown and his gang will sink you even lower, so if they win the election, then you might as well hang up your boots.
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Neil Inder
You are a Guernseyman, and you are a British national (look at your passport – that’s what it says). You are NOT a Channel Islander. The Channel Islands is nothing other than a geographical term. It has no status in nationality or in constitution. There are simply two Bailiwicks, Guernsey and Jersey, which geographically and for no other purpose are often referred to as the Channel Islands.
Joshua
Guernsey is not a country, it is a self-governing British Crown Dependency. Its more a country than not a country, if that makes sense, because it has its own government. But its not completely its own country because laws need to be approved by the UK Privy Council before they can be enacted.
You are absolutely right that it should be taught in schools. How many are taught today of our history within the Duchy or Normandy and of our Viking history ? How many people actually realise that “Normandy” and “Norman” are derivatives of “Norse Men”, ie Vikings ?
I think the Guernsey Press should run a regular “History of Guernsey” article. In fact, a serialisation of Tony Gallienne’s excellent book on Guernsey and the history of its economy is actually fascinating, especially when you learn that St Peter Port had a population of close to 30,000 in the 1800s. And there are people today who say that the island is crowded !
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Pied Piper:
That’s a post and a half! I think what you’re saying is, you don’t like the Saxons?! By the way – who are they?! Would you recognise one if you saw one?!
I think whether or not the Norman Empire was far greater than any other Empire depends on how you measure greatness. There are many references that will describe the British Empire as being the greatest empire ever known.
And I do have to take issue with your assertion that ‘Saxons’ have an exaggerated idea of their own importance – that’s a fine comment coming from a Guernsey Man (especially considering the thrust of this thread which is ‘leave us alone – we can do it ourselves’ – reminds me of my daughter insisting “Don’t help me I can do it” during one of her tantrums!).
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Dave Jones…What waste strategy? What sewage strategy? Who are these mysterious foreigners who want to hi-jack Guernsey? Please accept my apologies regarding the waste of money!!!! It has taken 20 years for the States to come to grips with the waste issue and still no finality. How long are you going to take? Tons of sewage is pumped into the sea on a daily basis…I do not care if it is treated or not…it is still sewage!!! Does this not bother you?
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Oh, good grief! All the semi literate, little Guernsey aggrandisers crawling out of the woodwork again. Can’t we just be happy to be a small part of the world with an interesting heritage enjoying a pleasant and privileged lifestyle without trying to make us into some god’s gift to the universe?
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A close relation of mine moved to the UK about 10 years, the grass was greener and he had similar thoughts to you J. Simpson. He now wants to come home to Guernsey, perhaps Guernsey is not that bad. And believe me this is a fantastic place to live even though rather expensive.And just to say my relative was in a beautiful part of the UK on the south west coast, but it is still not Guernsey.
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For those of you hitting the refresh button every two minutes in antiipation of the punch line……………………… The Guernseyman is the one looking inland! :)
I love these debates, especially when it involves people from a bigger country who at a football match are English, at the Eurovision song contest are referred to as the UK, take some kind of smug pride in the word ‘Great’ Britain (while not actually understanding it actually means ‘Greater’ rather the latter imperial interpretation of ‘better than you’)
David, I’m a Guernseyman first, a Channel Islander second whatever Britain/British is thanks very much for letting me piggy back on the back of your passport – very useful.
Happy Easter one and all
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“its inhabitants not having the power to govern themseles fully” As a Crown Dependency we probably aren’t even citizens – more ‘subjects’
As to David’s greater point regarding us being more a country than less acountry, I concur. In every way save control of foreign policy and representation we are in a nation state. And for all our pervcieved governance ills a well run, stable and relatively liberal democracy.
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J Simpson.
I have already given my views on your first two questions, I did not say we had foreigners who wanted to “hijack Guernsey that is your take on it not mine ,I was referring to those who come here and then start whinging that it is not like the place they just left and we should do this or that to make them feel more at home, we live in a democracy and one of the fundamental planks of that democracy is that people are free to leave anytime they wish, nobody has been brought here in chains since the Russian prisoners during the Napoleonic war who were imprisoned at the Vale castle (some of them never left and are still buried there today) As for the waste debate this has been going on since 1949 The Guernsey philosophy from my experience is that it is more important to get it right than get it done and i have absolutly no doubt that this issue will be resolved in the best interests of our community, which is as it should be. It would bother me if we hadn’t set in motion (no pun intended) the detailed investigation into what system of sewage treatment we will have, this is well advanced and the States will make it decision in due coarse once all of the options have been considered, that will include whether we have one big sewage treatment works or we have two or three solutions at different points around the island and I am satisfied that this problem will be resolved to islanders satisfaction.
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well Truth Man,
You answer my -and a half with
your own words,
you choose to try and make fun of us with words that interpreted mean. Call me Sahib, but on your knees) big man aren’t you.
Whose history is pounded out in our schools; whose laws are forced on us. whose heads are bigger than ours, but empty never the less.
You’ve never got over the shock of 1066, or how the north became Viking Territory.
Normandie named after ‘Gange Rolf’ a viking who founded Normandie.(Gange meanin g walking)read Snorre Sturlason, an Icelandic scribe.
You have always tried to outdo the French, you continually made war (which is a trait of Teutonic aggression) but in the end they beat you.
What a farce of a country in this day and age to have Lords and Sirs, in robes of ancient times, Oh yes the empire was the greatest– fill in the rest yourselves.
I feel no allegiance to England, and for my part the sooner you go back to your homeland the better.
But of course as a little Island we cannot fight back- but we can speak out.
You could have been great if you weren’t so bl… big headed.
The ordinary people of Britain have unfortunately to put up with all your tantrums of greatness—
But I am proud to be an Islander, in spite of all the misery you tried and put upon us over the centuries. you want the Items?
you want your blackmail demands, we’ve got them. also the end of war saga, we remember:
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Thanks for the backlash on my mistake! Honestly, thanks, as I had to pieces that all together myself from the internet, but I got my first point straight from a channel 4 documentary with the guy who looks like johnny lydon but fatter.
I agree with the statement of english teachers being clueless on Guernsey. Often coming across as belittling.
It would be interesting to find out the age groups and backgrounds of people who think we are part of the UK, as i’m certain I was taught that in school.
England has some messed up double standards, they keep the Falklands because they “want to be British,” yet if you were to take a poll of Guernsey born people, I believe they would argue for independence.
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I came here to work, from the UK.
I don’t want the UK having any more influence on what goes on here. They are making a mess of the UK as it is.
Decisions have to be taken on the island, for the benefit of all who live here, some of which may be quite harsh but life is not always easy all the time. Let our Deputies get on and make those decisions. Whether you like the deputies or not, they have put their names on the list to do the work.
It is a great place to live and work and whatever else happens, don’t lose sight of those facts.
Just as a view point for all those worrying about being a Guernseyman, British, English or other…..I call this place home. Let’s not spoil our home eh!
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Pied Piper:
Oh I see, you assume I’m English!? Is that because I don’t share your self important (and sometimes irrational) hate of the Brits?
You speak of the English having never gotten over 1066. Is that comment for real?! Do you think anyone remembers that? Do you think anyone really has any feelings for/against it? That battle, which happened all that time ago is exactly why we are aligned with the Crown. We had the choice to side with France later in history, and chose the Crown instead. WE MADE THAT CHOICE. In return, we were granted a freedom from rule that hadn’t been seen since before the Duke of Normandie of the time invaded the Channel Islands from France. From what I see, we owe the English!!
And onto some specific parts of your post that I think warrant response:
1. “Whose laws are forced on us.” – no ones laws are forced on us. We write our own, they are then approved by the Privy Council
2. “Whose heads are bigger than ours, but empty never the less.” – where is your evidence of this being the case? Are you suggesting we are superior in intelligence than the English (in which case, it is actually you who has the big head).
3. “You have always tried to outdo the French, you continually made war (which is a trait of Teutonic aggression) but in the end they beat you.” the French did not beat the English – I can’t even work out where you get that from!?
4. “What a farce of a country in this day and age to have Lords and Sirs, in robes of ancient times.” many people call that culture. I guess we’re happy simply with Ormers and Gache. Genius Pied Piper, well done for that one.
5. “I feel no allegiance to England, and for my part the sooner you go back to your homeland the better” I am in my home land.
6. “But of course as a little Island we cannot fight back- but we can speak out.” you’re not doing a particularly good job of speaking out – in fact, you’re making us look rather silly.
7. “…also the end of war saga, we remember” again, who is it that has never gotten over history?!
In short Pied Piper, I think your post is a self-humiliation. You let the Island down. I just sincerely hope any people reading this from outside Guernsey don’t think you are representative of US.
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I am reminded of Prince Charles’ quote during a recent visit to Sark;
“Styles come and styles go but do NOT let anyone tell you that your chosen lifestyle is inappropriate for the 21st century.”
It is easy for outsiders to point, mock and sneer. This is often motivated by ignorance, envy or jealousy.
I am reminded of the C&G ‘pearl diver’ advert. It showed a number of large people in heavy, cumbersome diving suits preparing to dive for a pearl in an oyster shell. One small, nimble teenager in trunks then free dives to the bottom and retrieves the oyster. Simples!
Small IS beautiful.
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If any one of us 2 is foolish then I don’t mind being so-called.
If you do not have Norman blood in you, you will never understand how I feel, that said, I maintain we are not of the Saxon blood and therefore we shouldn’t put up with their rulings.
You mention that we agreed long after 1066, to align ourselves with England, that my friend is false as was the vote-
In the 1st place it was the rich business and land owners who voted- the ordinary man in the street had no vote at that time, only land owners could vote-
Post war the Fort was sold to us, that to me was the utmost cheek, they took it from us to make a fort, and soldier it with unwanted military, which in itself was a waste as they disappeared all too quickly.
The knuckleheads who were our States bought it from the Saxons we bought our own property.
Herm was sold to us for £15000, we then immediately allowed more Saxons to take over.
They kept demanding money for the upkeep of military protection– now laugh!
it never stops.
But the biggest fault to my way of thinking was the refusal of the Saxons, to allow our Island to ask for compensation for those 5 years of occupation,. I still maintain that blood is thicker than water.
I can go on with the way we were treated.
Cottage industry of knitting stopped because the UK refused to export wool. tax on Tobacco growing, refusal to allow our ships trade in the Channel ports, it goes on and on,
So if I have a big head it is because I have studied the ways of those you appear to love.
Dis-allurement will come to you one day.
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Pied Piper
Are you for real ? I feel like I’ve just walked in part way through an episode of the Twilight Zone !
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Pied Piper….Hallo Eric…missed you! Dave Jones…I think we can agree to disagree on certain issues. I have no doubt that you do what you do because you care deeply about our island. I just wish that some urgency could be found in dealing with certain issues. At some point decisions must be taken and policies implemented. It is of no use to have endless strategies, but no implementation. Even if the “wrong” ones are made for the right reasons people will understand. Pumping HUGE amounts into the sea and thinking this has no effect is not really a strategy…it is mistake that should be dealt with urgently. I know I am going on a bit, but this is something I wish could be sorted out as soon as possible. If there was money to spend on a incinerator, surely that money could be spent on this?
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Pied Piper:
Wow, how do you remember all those things?! You talk as if they really matter to you. How are you so bitter?!
Should we hate the Normans because they invaded the islands and established us an an annex to their empire prior to 1066? You argue that you have Norman blood in you. Do you have any more Norman blood in you than Englishmen? Is your blood actually Welsh? Do you honestly know?
You are choosing pieces of history to try to find a reason for hating the English. In turn you choose to skim over the facts of history that do not support your hatred.
For example, you complain that the vote for allegiance was only given by the land owners and not ‘the man in the street’. That is just the way it was, the fact is – the occupants of Guernsey voted to ally themselves with the Crown. It was not forced upon our ancestors, it was what they chose.
Should Englishmen hate the Romans, the Saxons, the Normans. No, of course they shouldn’t (and don’t). They’ve moved on and now accept the past as being a part of their colourful history.
Why is it that you can’t do the same? Like I said in my first post, it’s just all sour grapes that I call ‘Small island syndrome’.
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J Simpson
Try saying something that actually adds up, as you clearly have a very big chip on your shoulder or just like to make hysterical claims
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J Simpson:
I knew I recognised those rants from somewhere, and I had been wondering where Eric had got to (bearing in mind this thread is a classic Brit bashing opportunity!). I can’t believe I didn’t put two and two together until you pointed it out!!
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Pied Piper
Saxon teachers at school? Did they wear helmets with horns on them?
Perhaps you were at school a very long time ago but I have to say that I have never seen someone that I thought was a Saxon.
It was the direct descendants of the Normans that did all that conquering of the Scots, Welsh and Irish, your Saxons had been largely subdued during the Norman genocide. Thats what the Normans liked doing, conquering places from Normandy itself to North Africa and then imposing their feudal system on the survivors. Given the mess that they left in many places I don’t think a Norman would have any bragging rights against the British post empire.
Honestly, all this grouping people into now obscure racial groups reads like something from a 1930s national socialist pamphlet.
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Truth man;
If you prefer to the name of Western France before 890 AD, then Valland was the name and it purports to be Welsh descendants, but that was Western France, or rather Armorica. whereas we are from Normandie, after the effects of Stlô in Normandie.
However you may say and think what you like, as I do like wise.
Yet it is interesting to notice that the EU are already having a go at England over the Channel, they want it re-named and not be the ENGLISH channel.
It’s a start.
You complain, or rather take umbrage at my words against the English, yet for centuries you have defiled the Normans with such propaganda as Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Nottingham.
So in your opinion all’s fair as long as its for the good of England,
Well I and I’m sure many like me are not intimidated by you, we simply ask for fair play,
especially as the English constantly bawl out about LEVEL PLAYING FIELDS
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As a Channel Islander (I don’t need correcting, I’ll call myself what I like, thanks) I am totally against us being dictated to by that shambolic bunch of embezzlers who call themselves the UK Government.
But are we not inviting outside control every time our States imports UK ‘consultants’ and ‘experts’ (planning officers, and of course, the ever popular head of the OUR come to mind), to provide ‘independent’ views and come up with strategies that those who have lived here their whole lives are apparently unable to do?
I totally appreciate that sometimes a fresh view of certain situations is necessary, essential, even, but Guernsey IS unique, and a lot of people who live here get that, and rather like it that way…
which is why, perhaps, they – I – balk every time someone who has been here the metaphorical ten minutes comes and imparts their UK experience based pearls of wisdom before us unwitting local swine, who sometimes object very strongly, only to be told that we are being just that, insular, ignorant, and unable to see the ‘bigger picture’.
Perhaps that is so, but perhaps that’s OK, for us.
Perhaps we don’t want UK influence by stealth, with our States keeping the front door firmly closed to the UK, whilst welcoming them in the back door through means of a constant flow of UK consultants and of course, not forgetting the finance industry, that calls the tune most of the time…
just a thought.
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….’our autonomy is one of the very few things I would die in a trench to protect’…
Actions and words, two very different things. The UK Government’s dictates may not be welcomed by our leaders, but then, there are other means by which we can (and are) losing our autonomy.
For example…
the finance industry dictatorship that we are constantly beholden to, and it’s stated and very clear intention to ‘reconsider it’s position’ if the island didn’t keep things exactly the way it wanted it during the recent 0-10 debacle…
the States abysmal decision to sell our local telecoms company for a song, so that C & W can hold us all to ransom for ridiculously hugh BB/ fixed line charges, with all those profits getting up-streamed straight out of the island to ‘somewhere-else-ville’ HQ…
that despite a large amount of interest from some local companies, our States were, until recently, determined to have all our waste disposal dealt with by a french company, thus taking yet more money out of the island…
ALL major influences in the island, ALL signed, sealed and given away (almost, in the case of Suez) by our very own Government.
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” small island syndrome ” is one of the most annoying patronising terms handed out by ignorant english people to explain what they don’t understand – island people have a real sense of community and stand up for their rights and principals something that is not understood by the english as they no longer have any identity due to the amount of immigrants they have let in….incidentally i always support France in international events as this is my heritage and has the added bonus of annoying the english something rotten..
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Thank you from my heart; for those last remarks, I new I wasn’t alone,
Maybe I am aggressive, but then again the ‘master’ (ahem) taught us well.
I stick to my thoughts;L I do not blame the ordinary people of England (or the Scots Welsh or N Ireland) they too are as we are, subject to that ruthless lot.
But times will change, and they will look for allies,– well to ever get true thinking Guernsey people, their attitude must change big time-
In a way I feel sorry for them, but they allowed it to happen, and until attitudes change it will only worsen.
I too lean more and more to France, yet in reality I was badly let down by some of their citizens. but that’s another story.
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Scarlett
You are quite right about our use of external consultants. Unfortunately, because our sernior civil servants are unaccountable, they effectively run the island and excessively influence day to day policy. Those day to policies are imported from educational, health, planning etc authorities in the UK which are totally knackered ! The net effect is that we are continually importing the UK’s “best modern practices” which have completely destroyed the UK over the past couple of decades with their over-the-top health and safety, namby pamby attitudes, where the criminal has more rights than the victim etc.
Its time that Guernsey merely imported the best of what the UK has to offer from its “modern best practices”, and had the wherewithal and the structure to disregard everything else. Otherwise we are well on the way to becoming “another Milton Keynes” if indeed its not already too late for that to be prevented. Why do you think so many people from the UK come here and never want to leave ? Its because Guernsey is different from what they left behind. Let’s maintain our uniqueness and do only what’s right for Guernsey from now on.
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Small Island Syndrome & Eric:
If you had read my previous posts you would see that I am handing the comment out to my own. The constant English bashing we see on these forums is not simply born of a sense of community. Eric (Pied Pipers) comments are so full of hate that they lack rational thought; he completely ignores any history that does not support him, whilst focussing his blinkers solely in on historical references that do.
Hence, the term ‘small island syndrome’.
We should ‘be the bigger man’. Embrace our history, and enjoy the fact that it is rather colourful.
Dishing out English hate just “because it has the added bonus of annoying the english something rotten” is frankly rather immature and unintelligent.
Again, if you read my first post you will see that I simply ask the question “would we really be better off as a completely independent jurisdiction”. It is a question that is hard to answer, and I would love to know if any significant research has been done into the issue. Can’t we approach the subject with this attitude rather than relying on rather small minded preconceived ideas that we should hate the Brits just because we are Guerns?
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Pied Piper, you say Brittany is called because of the brits who went there . Well , what shall we call Norway? NO , because “no” i wont be told any thing i dont want to hear, and “way” will i listen to anything except my own voice and opinions.!
I am not sure what is worse, being told what to do by an englishman, or being told how to live in my island ,by an ex guern who left years ago, for whatever reason, but still thinks that he is more experienced than those who are still here.
All those differences aside, i think that someone born and bred and who has lived here all their lives, has more say and clout than one who is shouting from the touchlines!!
P{s if you see Eric, send him our love, we willl send him a postcard this summer.
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Caw ; well I never, just fancy that, it was the Normans who did the dirty work for the English, now tell that to the Irish community in the USA-
So all the Kings and queens are Norman.
Bet old Churchill writhes in his grave.
Walter Raleigh was in fact a noble Norman.
On yer bike matey; that’s the trouble with the English, they never do any wrong they always pass the buck.
Which country was the 1st to use concentration camps, and where.?
Don’t come the old razz-a-me-tizz about being innocent, then blame others.
Yes England did many fine things, but equally many bad things, but you think they were Angels.
The best of any nation, is to admit having done some wrong,
The Norman wrong was that the Kings only ruled for just over 180 years, then died out. But such things is easy to forget Eh!
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Scarlett
I apologise for the length of this post but I have wanted to get some of this off my chest again for some time. I also apologise to those who have read some of this before.
I agree with some of what you say, which is why I voted AGAINST the sale of Guernsey Telecoms and the Suez proposals all the way through from day one. As for the finance industry we are not loosing our autonomy, yes we have those who wish to interfere in our tax structure but we have to do whatever it takes to keep ourselves competitive with other jurisdictions, if we do not then business will leave, I have never believed all this hogwash about the Finance industry being “dedicated “to the island as we are often told, it is dedicated to profits and its shareholders, make no mistake. The problem we had at the time of zero 10 was that the decisions on whether banks or other finance business left the island or not would not be made in offices in Guernsey. These decisions would be made in offices in the UK, Germany, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Singapore etc, completely out of the hands of local managers, based on decisions of where their global and European banking business had the best tax deal. I said at the time, that banks are like global fleas, we just happen to be the dog they have settled on for the time being and I am under no illusion whatsoever if we did not create a competitive regime for them to operate in Guernsey, then we are in real danger of this business relocating elsewhere. If that happened our economy would be close to collapse. For those of you who keep raising the issue of zero 10, do you think at the time of zero 10 it was easy for us to weigh up all the pros and cons and finally come to a decision on this crucial matter because you must and because that is your job as an elected deputy and it is what the people of this Island expect fro you? Do you think that all the other alternatives were just dismissed out of hand by people like me, when many of us were desperately trying to find a different route that might work without causing hardship to anybody? It was never a question of just caving into the banks, it was a much bigger issue than that, in ant event a large amount of business in Guernsey has nothing to do with banking, you have to look at the economy in the round. It has always been about acting in a responsible, calculated and accountable manner, its about NOT gambling with the lives of our people, their jobs, their mortgages, indeed their whole future and lives of their children, with all the dread of deep recession, bankruptcy and repossession if we got it badly wrong, do you think Scarlett that is easy? We did not have the luxury of taking a punt on this, we had to maintain this economy, our public services and the whole of the islands infrastructure and do it all on a little less than 350 million pounds per year. We also had to do it without significantly raising taxes or upsetting the population and affecting those less well off in our community. Have you any real idea the immense responsibility that rests with the elected deputies of this island not to get this kind of knife edge decision wrong? This was first time any of us had to face such a crucial decision that could have had a major outcome on our economic future. I can tell you from where I was sitting it was quite terrifying at times, perhaps it is not done to admit that publicly but I get really offended that according to some, all this was somehow easy for the majority of us. We had on that day the enormous responsibility of protecting Guernsey and its often fragile economy. We did not make the decision on zero 10 on some whim, It is our job to preserve the integrity of the economy for all those who work in it and the many thousands who rely on the income it generates, the income that fund the wages to those in the our service industries, benefits, pensions and all our public employees. Do you not respect that people like me thought deeply about all the pro and cons of these issues countless times before coming to a decision on how to vote? I get tired of being told that this last States and this one, has somehow failed the people. The last States managed to steer Guernsey through one of the most volatile and difficult financial periods ever faced by a single administration, In doing so it has gained the continued respect and support of the business community and the firm decision made at that time on zero 10 resulted in business pouring into the island, which in turn secured jobs and safeguarded the incomes and the future for thousands of our people. It has allowed us to continue to improve the islands infrastructure and as an aside, there has not been a single overspend on a government project since the Policy Council was formed. We have built and refurbished more social housing than any government in the last thirty years, while at the same time reducing significantly the costs of these developments to the taxpayer. Improved the facilities at the islands hospital, including building a brand new hospital in Alderney built a new accommodation block for hospital personnel. Completed a major school building project, with more yet to come, together with renewing the islands fresh water network and extending the foul drainage network that has cost millions, We finally (at last) saved this island from committing future generations to an old “dinosaur” incinerator and we have already increased recycling to levels never thought possible. We have managed through this last global recession to maintain all our major public services at levels many countries would be envious of, given the limited income we have and without significantly raising taxes and charges on our people, and we have also managed to do all of this without borrowing a single penny from anyone. For the first time in the history of the States, it has put together a properly thought out business plan for the future of Guernsey, which will not only help with future financial planning but will allow all future States to prioritise potential projects and expenditure. It is true that some of the items in the GBP will take time and a lot of money, which will be a challenge. We are far from perfect as a government I grant you, we are made up of ordinary people working in a consensus forum taking complex and difficult decisions, sometimes we get it wrong and often we take too long to make up our minds on some issues, but better to get it right, than to get it done as I have said elsewhere. We still have several vital projects yet to do, not least the Castel hospital and the Airport runway and sewage treatment projects. I have every confidence that a future States will take each of these projects in turn and we will manage just as we have always done to do them as an when we can afford them. This is how Guernsey has always managed its affairs in the past; we building up our infrastructure as we could afford it. Unfortunately there are many people in our community who want everything yesterday; they want 40p in the pound services while only paying 20p in the pound to fund them.
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Congratulations to Dave Jones for what must be the longest-ever single paragraph on this blog (probably beating your own record !).
Sorry Dave, but those rants aren’t easy to read when you don’t use paragraphs. Thank goodness you used some full stops at least. !
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Dave
I put it to you that on zero10 you voted for something you didnt understand?
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Well thank you all for your comments.
But this I will say;
I did try honestly to say what I had to say; I never held back; it is the God given right to so do,
Many are like myself not intimidated by bigger forces: and for that I say well done.
However I cannot believe that you all who cry me down haven’t a little thought that quite a lot is the truth,
But fear of many ways stop you, fear of Job, of reprisal if found out- that again is your choice,. I chose mine and stick with it.
But just to be sure do a bit of checking. you may get some surprises.
Meanwhile God bless you all, for or against.
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David
I apologise if the structure of my contributions are difficult to read, my only excuse is that much of that blog was cut and pasted from other papers I have written in the past and perhaps I didn’t take as much time as I might have done to knit it altogether. While we are correcting each other, you don’t need a full stop and an exclamation mark together at the end of your sentence, one or the other will do.
Simon
I understood how crucial this vote was to our economy, It is true I am not an economist or an accountant but like many financial issues the States have to take a view on we were well advised by people who had huge amounts of expertise in this area. I was in good company, only one member of the States (out of 47) voted to retain the status quo in June 2006. The other 46 all voted in favour of zero product. Trying to grapple with all the complexities of a subject alien to many elected states members was not easy. I Asked myself all the time during that period, whether I had got this right, mulling over the previous days and months of discussions advice and professional council given by our highly respected civil servants and tax professionals. In the end as I have said before, I did what I thought was best for all of us and I think that decision has been justified as the amount of business we have generated since that decision was made has been significant.
We now have to look at it again because some in the EU say we have not entered into the sprite of the code of conduct laid down by them and I am confident we will make the right decision on the level of corporation tax again.
Simon Guernsey was forced into Zero 10 as the 3 Crown dependencies attempted to keep a level playing field in order to hang on to their financial business. The IOM started the race to Zero and we very reluctantly had to follow or become hugely uncompetitive. Nobody wanted to create a black hole in our economy but as I said we were left with little choice. If we want to trade in the EU, then they demand we play by their rules, it is their club not ours and they are saying that we set the rules not you and if you want to trade in the European financial markets then you have to observe the codes we want to run the club by. They can also change these rules anytime they like and it is us who has to adjust, not them. I agree it is not fair but you don’t expect fairness from a bully. It matters not one jot whether we are a member of the EU or not, Switzerland is not a member either and is a fully independent sovereign state but it still had to alter some of its tax practices in order to trade with the EU. Now we have a choice we could choose not to trade with them and do our own thing that of course has some huge risks attached. The EU is like a moving target; its ultimate aim in my view is to make us so uncompetitive that we cease to be a viable offshore finance centre. I am going to try hard together with other States members to see that they don’t succeed. So I think I do understand the complexity of the island.
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Right, Dave. Vent over, I hope you feel better….any more posturing like that, and you’ll do your back in.
Firstly, it’s not all about you. Neither was my comment.
I worked in CRM for many, many years, and sometimes, I had to take one for the proverbial team that I was part of. If that meant gracefully taking some flack for others (or my companies) failures, (worse still, perceived failures, the client being eternally right) then I did so, accepting that was part of the job I got so well paid for – and that they were the one’s footing the bill for the pay roll.
Something to just consider, perhaps, whilst penning your next ‘woe-is me-the-big-boys-did-it-and-ran-away’ rant.
So. Back to your point, lost in the mists of time and sea of words.
Basically (and thankfully, more briefly) it appears that you think this States has been unjustifiably villified and criticised by many for some time, and that they simply do not understand or appreciate your best efforts, but instead chose to focus on the negatives.
If I/ they/we were commenting on you as an individual, then I could appreciate the obvious personal affront, indignation and tone of your response…
however, even if you WERE being commented on as an individual, I would also consider it more admirable if, as one of our political leaders and someone who is always pitching themselves as a champion of the people, you did, for at least a moment, take the higher ground and honestly ask yourself the difficult question – ie. ‘WHY it is that although you consider your position good and right, that all these people were saying otherwise’, before blowing a gasket and going on the defensive…
however, as I have already said, this isn’t all about you.
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Dave Jones
Ironic then that the man who lead the charge for an alternative is now having to deal with the decommissioning of said policy.
It was my view that many of the people voting on the issue had not understood it. Pretty much my view remains the same.
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Dave Jones
Apologies for my excessive punctuation – actually the first paragraph is correct but the second one is incorrect. Well spotted !
I think I was so starved of punctuation after reading your lengthy single paragraph that I threw in some extra for balance (only joking).
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David
I think you probably were, I take your point.
Simon
Even Charles wanted Zero 20, the zero part of the product was always there.
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“Unfortunately there are many people in our community who want everything yesterday; they want 40p in the pound services while only paying 20p in the pound to fund them”
David Jones makes a good point regarding public expectation, however, I would have written that paragraph as follows:
“Unfortunately there are many people in our community who want everything yesterday; they want 20/20 services while we have 0/10 to fund them”
While we had a £50million a year surplus we could have what we wanted when we wanted, but with a £50m deficit the public are still in a certain amount of denial. We had it very good for a very very long time and now we are in a new reality.
Any idiot can spend like a drunken lottery winner, something we all did as a comunity for 20 years. The challenge now is to box clever with what little we have left in the kitty and cut our cloth to suit.
Off topic I know:- back to Hands Off UK
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“Yes England did many fine things, but equally many bad things, but you think they were Angels.”
Angles not angels.
Scotland was invaded by William the Bastard in 1072. Most of the treacherous Scottish nobles were Norman descendents.
Ireland invaded by the Normans at Bannow Bay 1172, albeit requiring a subsequent Tudor reconquest.
Wales conquered by Edward I, a Plantagenet but of course immediately descended from William via the Empress Mathilda (his father being Geoffrey of Anjou and not a Saxon either). Of ocurse, it was this proud Plantagenet Norman who had William Wallace (and the Welsh princes) disembowelled, not your fantasy Saxons, and even expelled the jews from England. All the Anglo Saxon Edwards who preceeded him seem like much nicer people. Of course, Wallace supported Balliol, a Norman and feudal subordinate of Edward I.
The Normans may have been the biggest disaster to have happened to the British Isles or indeed Western Europe before Napoleon.
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Dave Jones
Our chief minister seems to have traveled the globe looking for someone who complained about our tax policy.
Is the real reason we need to bin it not actually because we cant afford it? So which Countries complained exactly and how many of them refused to do business with us? does anyone know?
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Gormley’s Statue
Was Napoleon not good for the people of Western Europe?
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“Channel Islander” exists constitutionally within protocol 3, along with “Manxman”, doesn’t it?
Robert Le Magnifique (alternatively Le Diable), sire of Guillaume Le Conquerant/Le Batard apparently topped his own brother in the scramble for power. Guillaume was the result of some liaison with a milkmaid from Arques, je crois.
They were all Vikings anyway, as was Harold, and all related one way or another. As a Norman, and in the style of Harold, I say what’s in a promise, or a declaration of loyalty?
None of the Dukedom at that time followed any semblance of lineage – the Duke left his title and lands as he saw fit – youngest nephew, cousin or whatever. The current pretence of the queen actually having any real claim to the dukedom is just rather twee.
Hence, when it comes down to it, we are very reliant on UK, and they are responsible for much of what we do. Whether we like it or not, we are an autonomous dependency of Westminster only for as long as we do what we are told.
We cannot depend on support from the longships any more. But perhaps, like Ascelin of Caen, we could demand our soil back.
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This whole British thing is a bit of a joke and the passport doesn’t really help anyone’s argument.
Front cover states “European Union” and then goes on to “British Islands Bailiwick of Guernsey”.
Inside front makes a prayer on behalf of ‘Her Britannic Majesty via the Lieutenant Governor in Chief at Guernsey (Channel Islands) – I won’t bother to mention my non-right to work in the EU on my EU passport that says I’m a British Citizen.
I seem to remember the old one was United Kingdom of Great Britain and something about Guernsey and its Dependencies.
So what do we know? Certainly the word United Kingdom means nothing and has been effectively dropped. We were certainly taught at school that we were part of the British Isles (geographically that’s as about as accurates as saying the Falklands are in the British Isles). Our passports now state British Islands – which to me suggests a closer sense of ‘belonging to’ than British Isles ever did.
If we look back over the last 10 years the UK has been systematically broken up by Labour and each country has become far more independent that under previous regimes.
Gordon Brown went through a stage of promoting Britishness. This would suggest would eb a bit like Churchill asking for Indianism after Partion.
The UK doesn’t really exist save for the previous mentions in Eurovision song contests; the idea of Great Britain and British is a hang over when the Union Jack dominated the world’s seas and the Union Flag flew over a third of the world.
Britain is a dead name, I defy anyone to explain in a sentences what a Brit is (most will say English) and the more I look into this the more comfortable I am with the notion of being a Guernseyman and, if asked,a Channel Islander.
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Simon
Well he started off quite a few rather nasty wars and much of what he did that was actually good (law codification and administrative reform and the like) would most likely have happened without him. Civilian and military deaths as a result of conflicts started or provoked by him are not accurately known but could be between 3 and 6 million and dragged multiple countries into warfare. Not very good for Western Europe surely?
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Scarlett
I never meant to give the impression that I was taking all this personally or as you put it, it was all about me; I was basically defending the States and its members collectively against some of the more unreasoned criticism which is commonly hurled about. I did say at one point that we don’t always get it right and like any government we will never be able to please all the people all of the time. However if we keep a stable and healthy economy and we have jobs and decent public services then we will at least be creating a better community for all.
You ask why I don’t take the political high ground and accept that our people often have a different view of us or what the States are doing? Well one of the reasons I suspect is that the publics view of us is shaped by the information they get fed. Our population lives on a daily diet of alleged political lack of ability constantly spewed out by the Guernsey Press, according to the Press we are all useless, inadequate and weak and our system of government is all wrong. Incidentally it is one of the main reasons we will loose people like Deputy Parkinson at the end of this term. So often I hear from members of the public comments that ”it must be true I read it in the Press” or “I didn’t read the whole thing but the headline said it all”. When your not in government or you don’t work for the civil service you tend to form your opinions by what you are told and by what you read. It is a great pity that more deputies don’t defend the decisions we make on forums such as these, or say publicly where the States have got it wrong, it might help the public understand why things are done in the way they are and it might also generate some real public debate. I also do not understand why everything I say is a “rant”, I try to give comprehensive answers or at least a different point of view on issues raised on here but I don’t describe other people’s contributions to this forum as a “rant”, they are just strongly held opinions as far as I am concerned. Your other point about blaming the big boys who then ran off could not be further from the truth either. I have always been open about the way I vote on different issues and have always been prepared to defend my position to the electorate; I have never blamed anyone else, unless of course they deserved it and had tried to conceal the facts.
Simon
The inference from the EU is clear there some who apparently do not think we have entered into the sprit of the code and this has been relayed to us via the UK treasury which is of course one of the member states of the EU,. Quite who these people are who are concerned is not clear but as Charles said recently we can’t ignore the disquiet and we will find out what the problem is and respond when we are ready to do so. Lyndon has travelled extensively in the last two years, mostly to sign tax exchange agreements with different countries and to fly the flag in the Far East and other places trying to attract business that is outside the influence of the European Union. We will not alter the tax rate until there is a level playing field with our other competitors, once we know what they intend to do then the States will decide what is best for our economy based on advice from the Treasury Minister and his team.
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Gormley’s Statue
Was warfare nothing more than “the politics of the day”?
I ask sincerly, as he has for a long time been a misunderstood hero of the people to me!
For me he was ahead of his time, and should he have been even more successful then maybe the world we live in would be a better place!!
I know for certain that he polarises opinion.
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Dave Jones
Thanks again for yours swift reply.
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Neil
I think you will find that the front cover is only relevant to where the passpoirt was actually issued, i.e. by the passport office in the UK, or by Guernsey Customs & Immigration under the auspices of the Lieutenant-Governor’s Office as we are part of the Common Travel Area of the UK under the British Nationality Act, 1981 (although I think this originates from 1972 under Protocol 3).
To put that into perspective, I know of people who have moved to the island with no previous connections (i.e. licence holders) whose passport has expired and who have been issued their replacement British passport locally on the island. They receive exactly the same front cover on their passport, and indeed the same passport, as anyone locally who has a British parent or grandparent and who doesn’t have that awful EU restriction to which you refer. Conversely, if you were to apply for your own British passport to be renewed in the UK whilst visiting London, you would get the same front cover on your passport as any Joe Bloggs in the UK. But your passport would still contain that EU restriction.
Apart from that EU restriction, there is only one line of your passport which is relevant to your nationality. Its the line on the picture page that says Nationality:British.
Everybody gets confused by the definitions of Great Britain, the British Isles and the United Kingdom. They are used so interchangeably in the media (and often wrongly !) that it’s no wonder people get confused.
“Great Britain” is the collective name for the three countries of England, Scotland and Wales. It also includes the small adjacent islands (eg Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Scottish Islands) but it does NOT include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
The United Kingdom is made up of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The official name “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” came into use in 1922 after the constitution of the Irish Free State (1922-1937), the former name of the Republic of Ireland.
The Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey are not part of Great Britain, are not part of the United Kingdom and are not part of the European Union. We/they are are self-governing British Crown dependencies.
The expression “British Islands” has been defined in the Interpretation Act 1978 as meaning the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. The Republic of Ireland is not included in this definition.
The expression “British Isles” is geographical and not political. They are a group of islands off the northwest coast of Europe consisting of Great Britain, the whole of Ireland, the Orkney and Shetland Islands, the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Isle of Wight, the Scilly Islands, Lundy Island, the Channel Islands and many other smaller islands.
The adjective “British” is, of course, used in relation to Great Britain but there is also a common tendency to use it when referring to issues relating to both Great Britain and the United Kingdom. This is inaccurate and from a legal point of view erroneous.
Sometimes, however, in legislation the term “British” is used to refer to the United Kingdom as a whole, especially in matters relating to the question of nationality. By the British Nationality Act 1981, s. 50 (1), the United Kingdom includes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man for the purposes of nationality law.
Hope that helps, although far from clear !
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Dave Jones
Seriously were ditching zero10 because someone (we dont know who)does not think they like it!
We are ready to make wholesale changes on one of the biggest policy changes of late before we even know why they dont like it.
NO Dave surely not!
Is it not that we cant afford to continue with it?
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Truth Man
You said earlier “I’d love to know if anyone has ever done any significant research in to where we would be politically and economically if we were completely severed from the UK”.
Im sure you know by now, if you have been keeping up with this thread, that we are not part of the UK. (Quite why Guernseymen display the ‘UK’ flag on their ensigns is beyond me).
But to take the thrust of your argument and substitute ‘The Crown’ with the ‘UK’. First, I’m fairly sure that we couldn’t be severed against our will. Second, i’m sure that if we asked for our independance it would be given, gladly. Third, if we decided to ask for it, it would be absolutely catastrophic.
Bob
You said, “The current pretence of the queen actually having any real claim to the dukedom is just rather twee.”.
I may be wrong but is it not the case that the Duke of Normandy holds the Crown of England?
Dave Jones
What you have said regarding the criticisms of the states of deliberation and your take on the root causes of such are spot on. The best thing that deputies could do is to join debate on these forums.
I think that one of the biggest obstacles that the UK government faces when dealing with the Channel Islands is ignorance of our history. I believe that this could be because we are described as a ‘dependancy’. Whereas all the other British dependancies were ‘claimed’ by the English Crown, the Channel Islands were not.
I too regret that our history teachers were english, and although we were taught the ‘Battle of Hastings’ they never mentioned how we connected to that, and quickly moved on to the kings and queens of England. Maybe we should stipulate a similar requirement for history teachers as we do for members of the Guernsey Bar.
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Dave.
I said rant, as you wrote an incredibly long post which contained way too much heart and not enough head, had hardly any paragraphs, and came across as saying it all without taking a breath. Very hard going to read.
Perhaps you feel that you as an individual are doing the right thing for the right reasons, however, the road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions, and whether a decision is ‘good’ or ‘bad’ (for the island or anything else) is subjective, not objective.
I don’t agree that a lot of the people who criticise this States do so because they believe every over-sensationalised word that the media tells them, I think it’s that they see what is going on around them, and often don’t like it. Again, subjective. They are equally entitled to their opinion.
I do agree with previous comments made here, however, that the island is being run (partly) by non elected senior civil servants who have no accountability, retain their position regardless of the appalling way that they are doing their job and ruining this island, then retire with a gold plated pension that the rest of us can only dream of…
I include imported ‘experts’ in this.
As you are passionate about doing the right thing, I would be interested to know what your thoughts are on this, and if you think it is appropriate that this be allowed to continue?
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Steven:
Thank you for your reply. In discussing severing us from the UK I was in no way suggesting we are a part of the UK, merely that politically and economically we have certain connections.
Nonetheless, the name aside I suspect your third paragraph is absolutely correct. It would be useful for people like you and I who seem to be (relatively) pro-uk/crown connection to know if any holistic research has ever been conducted. Apart from anything else we could be totally wrong and if that is the case I would like to know about it!
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Hi Dave (not Deputy)
“Hope that helps, although far from clear ! ” In my previous post I defied anyone to explain to me in one sentence; you clearly know your subject, but with the greatest respect, have highlighted the issue.
With the exception of probably the Protestant Northern Irish and the English, the Welsh consider themselves Welsh, the Scots consider themselves Scots and I consider myself a Guernseyman, travelling under a British passport. I genuinely have never considered myself a ‘Brit’ – always seems far too close to ‘English*’ to me.
*This is not an anti English post – just a debate about nationhood.
Although you may well be legally accurate, I think even you may accept that the word Britain and British has a real problem of translation and acceptance. And I’d argue if a nationality has to be explained then it has failed.
But I don’t envisage us agreeing
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Neil
Actually, I do agree with you. The whole issue of nationality is very confusing and not entirely satisfactory (you certainly wouldn’t get any Scots arguing with that either !).
In an ideal world, Guernsey would be able to grant its own “nationality”, but constitutionally it can’t do that. We are simply “British” as far as nationality is concerned.
It does have both pros and cons. If Guernsey granted its own nationality, to where would Guernsey “nationals” turn when running into difficulty abroad ? At the moment we can contact the good old British Embassy to help us out. Guernsey would need its own embassies everywhere to look after its “nationals”, which is simply not feasible as I am sure you can appreciate. On occasions it would suit us to be “Guernsey nationals” out of pride, but on other occasions we’d be extremely grateful for being simply “British”.
Its rather handy at present to be able to go through the much shorter “British Nationals” queue at British airports when returning from abroad. Its also nice to be able to opt to go to the occasionally shorter “non-EU” queue on occasions !
Not sure what the answer is, but I suspect that apart from the loss of national identity, which shouldn’t be under-estimated, all other aspects of being a British national are actually a major benefit to us all.
Wouldn’t it be nice though to have some form of Guernsey national identity card which wouldn’t replace a British passport, but which would give us something to show that we “belong” to Guernsey and are proud to call ourselves “citizens” or “belongers” even if we can’t call ourselves “nationals” of Guernsey ? Not sure how we would define such a person, but being born here or having one or more parents or grandparents born here, or having acquired local market housing status in one’s own right might be a good starting point. It doesn’t matter whether the outside world recognises it. It would be enough that Guernsey recognises it.
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Steven –
“I may be wrong but is it not the case that the Duke of Normandy holds the Crown of England?”
Er, no, not necessarily. You assume that the two go together, and that the current monarchy has some ancient right to the title. For example – when the conveniently protestant, available political appointee, William of Orange (a Dutchman) was decided upon by parliament, what right had parliament to cede him the title of Duke of Normandie? None, probably. And so on.
Possession is 9 tenths of the law, it is said, unless you can muster a big enough army.
But the ancient right to the title may lie still with the line of Stuarts then deposed. As Charles Stuart attempted to win back the crown, one can suppose that James had never intended to cede anything to William – hence William’s descendants have little actual claim to the title, though they have adopted it.
The English crown has been taken by force of arms, as have these islands. However, just because Hitler captured the islands didn’t accord him the title of Duke. This is the case with William, too surely, but for political expediency, and a leaning toward protestantism.
You are of course right insofar as the same person “holds” both, and this has been the case for some time.
Perhaps we are free to adopt a Duke that best suits, and that it suits us to follow the English crown for whatever reason. In any event, we are tolerated and protected as long as we behave ourselves.
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David – I was with you until your last paragraph. What purpose would this ID card have? The criteria that you mention are the same as for qualified residents, so now we should have a card to wave to our licensee neighbours to show that we are more local than them?
It is funny that the immigration issues in the UK revolve around people wishing that the immigrant communities integrated more and became more “British” whereas here we sometimes seem to want to ensure that those who are not strictly local know their place and do not seek to assume that they are more local than they are.
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Bob:
Many thanks for that information. It is good for the island for these matters to be discussed, it helps to fill in the gaps left out at school. Otherwise facts slip away into obscurity which can lead to ignorance being taken advantage of.
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Don’t thank me, Steven, I’m not used to that!
Besides, it’s ony one view.
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