Minimum pay set to be 7p an hour above UK’s
Tuesday 13th April 2010, 2:29PM BST.
MOST islanders will be entitled to a minimum wage of £6 an hour from 1 October, if the States approves proposals next month.
The Commerce and Employment Department has published the details of its recommended rates.
Anyone aged 19 and over would be paid at least £6 an hour and anyone aged over 16 would be entitled to the young person’s rate of £4.25.
The States agreed to the principle of a minimum wage in 2007.
Commerce and Employment minister Carla McNulty Bauer (pictured) said: ‘In arriving at the proposed rates, the department considered a fair rate of pay for employees and workers in lower paid jobs and the effects on employers and their business and concluded that the proposed rates would be fair.’
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Just exploit the youngsters then, £4.25 is nothing!
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GG your glass is always half empty! The states might actually have this one right!
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The minimum wage for adults is very good, I agree! But I also think that it should be the same for over 16s. When you’re over 16 you pay adult fares on trains, planes and boats, are expected to pay tax and often have a motorcycle to get to your employment…
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Most jobs 40 hours per week = £240 per week,that is not a lot when you take out rent,food,utillity bills,clothes.Whoever came up with this number needs to try and live for a while on this rate.
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How is an adult in Guernsey going to live on £6 an hour? Thats 133 hours work per month at least to afford a house to rent. And even then, it would literally be a house with no water, electricity etc, as they could not afford to do it. Guernsey will fast become a haven for the rich, with the less well off forgotten.
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Bart get a grip! if your a business in Guernsey and you can’t afford to pay more than £6 per hour for an adult get out of business!
Thats the princely sum of £224.40 per week take home.
Bart could you please explain right here and now exactly what kind of standard of living you would expect on that kind of pay. You’ve had the gall to utter your crass statement “maybe the states have got this one right” Justify it.Right for who?
It’s people like you who will help create an underclass of workers who will ALWAYS need two jobs to survive. I’m gonna go before I say something nasty. For the record I think the minimum wage should be £7.50
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Bart – agree.
GG – I don’t think I’ve ever read a positive post from you… Might be worth working on?
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Inflation is on its way
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Its high time we had a minimum wage,even America has one.Will stop the really bad employers from getting away with less than £5 an hour and charging too much for food and accommodation.
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GG – what a better excuse for them to stay in education then.
I agree that £6 is very low, however, currently I think a lot of employers out there exceed this. Low skilled job in a supermarket will get you around £7.35 an hour.
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Kevin
I don’t need to explain myself to you :-) It is an opinion for which I am entitled to.
If you’re putting things down on record, then for my record I think you need to set up a hammock in your garden, mix up some Pimms and lemonade, pull out your trunks and sunnies and chillax as they say…
Have a great day!
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Kevin, I posted you a reply earlier however I don’t think it was deemed polite enough in response to your message. The crux of it was that I don’t have to justify myself to you and I am entitled to my opinion… etc etc blah blah :-)
However…
If a man or lady were to get 240 a week, that’s 960 a month.
On my very first internet search I found this room for 125 a week.
http://www.spareroom.co.uk/flatshare/?posttown_id=42
Nothing is free in this life. If you want a nice house you have to have a good job or two as you suggested Kevin. I have worked hard to get where I am and when I started out I was on a terrible wage. I also had a very small bedsit, as I have been promoted and had a succession of 2nd and even third jobs I have raised a family, had a mortgage and am proud of what I achieved. I’m confused at your anger.
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You do know that many teenagers infact put in more effort than adults, we still have to pay tax and social security, we also have to put up with the huge cost of fuel to transport from one place to the other.
“What better excuse for them to stay in education”, so them working on Saturdays or perhaps saving up for university isn’t a good thing for our economy? I thought you were in HR or something.
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Several people seem to be multiplying the minimum wage by 40 hours to come up with £240 per week
This is claimed to be less than a living wage
I thought I’d divide a single Old Age Pension rate of £174.65 by 40
Wow, that comes to £4.37 an hour
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GG
Conversely, teenagers have no experience, and may work harder (on occasion, have seen very few examples of them working harder though), but would probably need to, to make up for a disadvantage in skills and experience etc.
Paying more for experienced staff makes sense to me.
As an aside, when I started working part time when I left school, I earned just over £2 an hour, that wasnt all that long ago either, that mademe work harder and Isoon got paid more an hour when my bosses realised I was an asset.
There was a lesson to be learned there, kids need these lessons, if we just keep handing it out they wont learn the value of hard work until much later in life.
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Ray your old age pension is exactly that.. a pension we are talking about a wage.
Bill you think the minimum wage is very good. Where have you been working all your life? A salt mine.
Lynnie what will a low skilled job in a bar get you?
Bart I’ve lost count of the people on this site who have had it sooo… hard in the past. My answer to this is since when did two wrongs make a right.? Might I suggest you move into the room you’ve found on the internet chill out , shell out £125 per week and try and live on the minimum wage for a month. You are entitled to your opinion but I think I’ll let the public decide if £6 per is “just about right”
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GG – No teenager who is in full time education who just works Saturdays will have to pay Tax unless they exceed the earning threshold. Huge cost of fuel to transport to places??? Pushbike? Bus? Walking? Fuel prices are much better here than the UK where it is actually more of a necessity to have transport and would also receive a lower wage. As I also stated (which you conveniently decided to overlook) was that very few employers actually pay this low rate of pay. If you were to discuss that this was a low rate of pay for someone who has left education and is seeking full time employment then yes I would agree with you. But then my original post still stands.
“You do know that more teenagers in fact put in more effort than adults…”
REALLY??? What exactly have you based that on? In my experience of employing BOTH teenagers and people over 18 I would have to disagree with you I’m afraid. Whilst I know that there are absolute stars out there in the teenage community I think you have generalised without actually having anything to base it on. Effort is not all an employer looks for. Efficiency and accuracy are also major factors.
GG are you actually interested in debating this issue or are you indeed just looking for an excuse to argue (yet again) about foreigners? I realise your second comment didn’t mention foreigners but no doubt you’ll be banging on that drum again before long…
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Kevin – I worked in Niks Bar when it was around and I got £5 an hour for that. Now that was 2002 so 8yrs ago. I also worked at the Bowl and got £6ph and that was 2003. As I said there are many employers out there already exceeding this minimum wage.
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Kevin, why are you so angry at everyone? My story isn’t a hard luck story but a response to your “its so unfair that people have to work hard” comment.
No doubt you are claiming benefits and don’t have any money worries to talk of and don’t have to worry about where you live!
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So Lynnie you walk to work everyday then, yep? I’ve had to pay tax before, I can’t take the bus to work or decide to just walk down or take a push bike, I have to use a motorbike, my job requires me to wake up at a ridiculous time in the morning, no buses are running at this time and if I decided to walk I’d be late by 2 hours. I perfectly agree that students should put it in the time and get more money, but why should employers exploit these young workers? Foreigners are getting paid less than local teenagers, is this a good thing? I don’t think so. (Just decided to bring foreigners back in, as I know you love this kind of stuff)
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GG I actually do walk to work but that is because I work and live in town. I do work in other locations (off island) and previously lived out of town so there is need for me to use some sort of motor transport to get to places but then again I’m not 16 getting paid £4.25 so therefore is irrelevant to this discussion. Many of these types of jobs enable you to claim back on expenses or have fuel cards etc. Many of our UK colleagues would not have the same option and are forced to commute hours on end to and from work.
I can’t imagine that there are many jobs out there that require a teenager to have some sort of motorised transport and that it’s purely out of the teenager’s choice that they decide to have it.
During my teenage years (not that long ago btw) I used the bus, walked and would have used a bike if I wasn’t so rubbish at it. Many of my friends did, however. In fact there wasn’t that many that did have scooters. If transport was a main issue then I wouldn’t take the job. GG I imagine that work is not the pure reason of having your motorbike and if you really needed to get rid I’m sure an articulate intelligent person such as yourself would be more than capable of finding suitable alternative employment. I also imagine you are not being paid £4.25ph which reinforces my point on how many employers are actually paying this.
Ah it wouldn’t be a GG post without the mention of foreigners. I would expect nothing less. Many migrant workers brought over here have their board and lodgings too if the basic pay is low. I’ve never experienced working for a company which paid people different rates of pay depending on their housing status though so unless you do have this knowledge (which I doubt, no offence intended) then I also think you’re unable to comment.
Back to the main issue. £4.25ph hour for workers up to 18 fair? Yes I think so. I received lower when working in the UK on minimum wage at university and I had quite a bit more to pay out for than the average teenager in Guernsey. No one has said that this is a preferable lifestyle and I should imagine that most people would aim to NOT be on minimum wage. However, can someone survive on £6ph? Yes they could. Remember people this is not so they can save up and have their two week summer holidays and buy the HD flat screen they always wanted.
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Kevin
Thanks for defeating your own argument. You suggest that Bart should try to live on the minimum wage of £6 per hour for a month,as if that would not be possible
What I am saying is that pensioners have to live on the equivalent of £4.37 per hour. Are you suggesting that they should starve?
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Lynnie you and I are a little closer than you think on this issue. We both support a minimum wage the difference is that I feel the minimum wage should be introduced because of the employers paying poor wages. So what if lots of employers are paying above the minimum wage? These employers don’t need to concern themselves with any new law, quite right too. I think ,given your experience you know the kind of employers I’m having a go at. I take your point ref education.
Bart,
you really are priceless! Where do I start? We’re obviously inhabiting different intillectual planets here. I’m not angry at everyone, just you. Where did I say your’s was a hard luck story? Where did I say it’s so unfair that people have to work hard? In my previous post I asked Lynnie a straight question and got a straight answer, I don’t have a problem with that. You, in your reply have shown everyone how unskilled you are in the art of debate. I employ 90 people. I’m going to Japan, Taiwan ,Vietnam and Singapore for my 50th birthday celebrations. Surprise surprise I haven’t got to go there by claiming benefits. I have travelled the world and as you say I don’t need to worry about where I live because I own my own home. I’ve put two sons through university. I’ve done this because I work hard in an unforgiving industry and I’m proud of what I’ve done but I haven’t forgotten where I came from and I’m telling you and everyone else that £6 per hour is too low for a minimum wage in Guernsey. Sorry folks but people like Bart really get up my nose.
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GG you wouldn’t be late if you left home in plenty of time. I’ve had a job with a 6am start and yes I walked, not because I fancied a walk some mornings it was every morning because the buses weren’t running that early. It took me just over an hour to walk to work and I was never late because I knew what time I had to get up in order to reach work on time.
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Thanks for your input Kevin.
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GG -
Your tax comment sorry I missed that in your earlier post. The current single persons allowance is £9050. That means that if you were deducted tax your employer either didn’t have the correct coding notice (in which case you go back to the tax office ask for a direction notice and it’s sorted in your next pay) or you are indeed earning over the threashold. In which case you are either gettign a VERY good hourly rate of pay or you are working a LOT of hours considering you are still in full time education.
On £4.25ph you would have to work over 40hrs a week to pay tax.
If you are paying tax and it’s correct then you are clearly a minority.
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Kevin I think Bart was merely trying to prove a point that it would be possible to survive on a minimum wage of £6 an hour. Of course a person on this wage wouldn’t be living in the lap of luxury but would be able to take pride in the fact that they were working and supporting themselves. If you want the finer things in life then you have to take on extra job/s or perhaps study to take a higher paid position.
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What most of you are failing to grasp is that the “minimum wage” is a safety net against employers who might seek to exploit vunerable workers.
Granted this probably isn’t a major issue in Guernsey.
And bear in mind that millions have benefited from this in the UK.
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I earn far more than the 16+ minimum wage, all I’m saying is that why should we be exploited? I need a motorised bicycle to transport me 15 miles from my home to my work, if I decided to walk, I wouldn’t want to wake up at 3-4am and walk for 2 hours, nor would I want to walk in the rain.
You haven’t given me a good reason (more like excuse) to why under 18′s should earn less?
” I received lower when working in the UK on minimum wage at university and I had quite a bit more to pay out for than the average teenager in Guernsey.” This isn’t the UK, soz.
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Ray , behave yourself you know that’s not what I meant.
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GG Because that’s the way it is. Someone at school/straight out of school can’t expect the same wage as a person who has been working for a few years and has gained skills and experience.
Obviously as time goes on they will prove they can do the job, gain experience get a bit older and will then get a pay rise. Happens all the time.
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GG
I can see a pattern emerging;
whilst I take the time to answer your questions according to my experience you fail to reply. You really are more interested in arguing against the majority rather than debate. You also take my statements out of context and use them to fuel your own xenophobic thought process.
Why don’t you re-read the part about why I mentioned I the uni part.
Whilst you’re there why don’t you go through my posts and answer some of my questions/points for a change, considering I have taken the time to answer yours.
I did not come up with the minimum wage GG therefore I think “excuses” are a bit harsh as that implies I had some decision making process. I agree as more often than not over 18′s have higher outgoings than under 18′s. Your point of petrol is weak at best.
A 35yr old working in the job for the last 2 years probably knows a good bit more than the 16yr old just starting. Why should they be paid the same?
Just be grateful that there’s not an over 21 rate too!
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GG, 15 miles to work? Are you a diver?
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I think there’s an additional point about the difference between an under-18 and and over-18 minimum wage rate.
If they were set the same, unfortunately it would encourage employers to avoid employing under-18s. There is a common view amongst employers that over-18s are a safer bet – they believe they are more reliable, harder-working, and better skilled.
I’m not arguing about whether this perception is accurate or not. But Commerce & Employment predict that if you force employers to pay under-18s the same as they could get an over-18 for then they’ll be less likely to employ under-18s. That is why there is a differential.
We’ve already got a bad enough problem with youth under-employment without adding extra disincentives to it.
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let’s face it it is a box ticking exercise. Look we have a minimum wage. Sorted and now on to the next ‘issue’
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>>What I am saying is that pensioners have to live on the equivalent of £4.37 per hour<<
Wish I could get that for sitting at home all day doing nothing. That is far too much for watching tv.
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Lynnie, I think you’re taking a things a bit out of context. I never compared a 35 year old with a 16 year old, all I’m saying is that 16 year olds shouldn’t be exploited. They shouldn’t be paid the same, but the minimum wage for the 16 y/o should be the same as an 18 year old. Regarding your university paragraph, I imagine most over here have to pay a fair bit more to go to university than those from the UK, so surely the minimum wage should increase for that reason?
CO, I know they shouldn’t be paid the same, but the minimum wage should be the same, shouldn’t it?
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Kate,
people should not be on wages that they can only “survive on ” your words. Not one single post on this subject has said exactly what you think someone taking home £212 approx after insurance and tax can afford. there are adults in Guernsey earning less than the proposed minimum wage and there are lots of people who don’t give a damn.So Kate why don’t you tell us all how you can put a roof over your head, heat your home, cloth and feed yourself and put a little something away for your retirement on £212 per week. We do not live in a third world country so people, yes real live human beings, people we were at school with or whatever should not have to work god knows how many hours just to afford the basics in what is a very expensive place to live. It says a great deal about the “every man for themselves” mentality in Guernsey that so many people think £6 is a fair rate per hour.Our proposed minimum pay is 1.18% more than the u.k. rate. Do any of you “I’m alright jack” folks think the cost of living in Guernsey is only 1.18% more than the u.k. Meanwhile your all packing away your “Guernsey enhanced” rates of pay. Shame on all of you!
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GG
Invest in a Perry’s Guide mate. You might find a shortcut to work
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Seeing another story very similar to this one brings up a good point. Does Guernsey need minimum wage legislation?
Or is Carla McNutty just trying to show that Commerce and Employment actually do something else apart from making up their own compliments for articles…
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Maximum rate of Supplementary Benefit outside of residential/nursing homes is £387.00 per week depending on your situation. Minimum wage is £240.00 per week. Something wrong there methinks. If you don’t believe me look in the Social Security leaflet.
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Kevin
Yes I said survive. So? People have choices and as I said could take on an extra job to boost their income as I do. For your information I am paying £570 a month in rent for my nice but small flat and of course I have bills, same as anyone. I manage thank you very much and am happy with my life.
Using Bart’s very good example of the room at £125 per week equals £541.66 per month. No additional bills on top of that. Min pay of £6 an hour for a 40 hour week would give take home pay of £918.66 a month leaving £377 which I realise isn’t a fortune but on the other hand isn’t exactly a handful of coppers either.
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Lynnie
I’m starting to lose faith in you. Didn’t you say earlier you were in favour of a minimum wage?
Jackie
way too harsh. The point I was making with Ray was that a pension is not meant to be all of what you should live on when you retire. How are the low paid supposed to put something away for their retirement?
Kate
where are you?
Deputy Jones your silence is deafening on this issue I’d like to know your thoughts on this isuue. where are you?
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kevin
In defence of Dave Jones, he did post elswhere that he would not be around for a bit.
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Hi Kevin,
I’m just not convinced this is the right step. From what I know there aren’t that many employers out there paying less than this. I understand that there are some but wonder if this can be tackled differently or I worry that other more generous employers will simply think “well we’re paying over the odds, no need to increase by RPI this year” and we’ll start to see pay rates decrease to come more in line with this over the years. Costs in Guernsey are considerably higher, Jersey’s minimum wage is also higher than this propsal. I just don’t think a lot of work has been put into this.
I do agree with you that the £6ph hour figure is low and it’s interesting that Kate brought up the figure re benefits. What inclination is there to get back into the work place? I would suggest looking at the benefit levels first
GG – I see your point but the difference has got to be somewhere. That is the most logical choice as it’s mainly people looking for part time work and have therefore not got the costs that full time employers have. I was brought up in Guernsey GG so when I went to university I had to work over there to cover the costs I had to pay as an overseas student. My point was that I was being paid less than £4.25 as was minimum wage back then whilst having to pay rent, tuition fees, course material, food and travel (back to gsy at the end of each semister). Of course I had help from my parents but I still paid the whole rent, food and utilities myself. That was quite a substantial amount especially compared to what the average 16yr old in Guernsey has to pay for.
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Kate
re-work your maths.
What about tax and insurance? Heating ,clothes,food,cleaning gear,doctors bills, bedding, washing clothes t.v licence(or are you saying low paid should not watch t.v.)cooking facilities, kettle electric,gas. And so on.
for goodness sake get real!
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Kevin. The room for let at £125 per week includes heating, cooking facilities, kettle, electric, gas, tv. I’m sure cleaning gear and wshing of clothes would be a shared expense as would some of the food.
Kevin YOU came up with the figure of £212 per week after insurance and tax.
£212 x 52 (weeks in a year) = £11,024
per year
£11,024 divided by 12 (months in a year) = £918.66 take home per month.
YOU rework YOUR maths Kevin.
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James – very good point.
Kevin what I think you propose is a “living” wage instead of a minimum wage.
Referring to the minimum wage as a wage designed to support a family confuses the issue. Families need a living wage, not a minimum wage. With that said, working at a bar or the local petrol station isn’t a career. These are jobs designed to help entry-level workers join the workforce, not to support the financial needs of a family. This is also the reason why I’m not convinced Guernsey needs a “minimum” wage. In Guernsey I would put a Living Wage at around £15K as an educated estimate.
A more practical solution is to join the workforce at the low end of the wage scale, build your skills, get an education and move up the ladder to a better paying job just as members of the workforce have done for generations.
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Kevin
Why don’t you get real? For goodness sake. Let other people have an opinion. Your debate skills are terrible as everyone else other than you is wrong. You have one argument and all it says is everyone should be well indulged. Well get real your self because nothing in life is free. You have to work for it and if your job pays you only £6 an hour then get a second job or move even move jobs!!
Other people have pointed out that it is very rare for someone to actually receive the minimum wage but you don’t listen to that either.
Lynnie’s wrong, Kate’s wrong, I’m wrong, Ray is wrong – funny isn’t it that we are all the ones in the wrong.
You are really grating.
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stick to the facts bart where did I say anything in life is for free? your just annoyed you made yourself look silly by saying i was on benefit. Wow!I didn’t realise I upset so many folks by arguing on behalf of the low paid. Bart this is a forum for debate I respect everyone’s opinion even yours but I’m entitled to put my case don’t take things so personally.
Kate
apologies but you still haven’t convinced me that £6 is reasonable.
I feel that all you anti minimum wage folks would do better turning your anger towards all the benefit fidlers, cheats and layabouts who will get more money than the £6 an hour people money that will come from your taxes.. I’ll never convince you thatcherites I’m right so this is my last post on this subject.
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Kevin, it takes a lot more than my insulting you to get upset :-)
Keep your chin up though mate, you can’t always be right ;-)
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Kevin. Apology accepted. Thank you. I hope you’re sitting down but I agree with your comments on the benefit cheats.
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7p an hour more than the uk doesn’t go nearly far enough. I think someone earlier mentioned a room in guernsey for £125 a week, you can get rent a modest flat for that price in the UK (outside of London) and a room can be as little as £60 a week in a shared house.
I’m not certain I understand the logic of those saying it’s ok as many low level positions on the island are paying more than the minimum. That doesn’t make it ok, in fact it’s not even relevant to the debate. If so many businesses are apparently happy paying more then put the minimum up to a realistic level.
There is already a massive disparity between those enjoying high finance sector wages and those not. We need to do better than this or just accept that those on mimimum wage cannot support themselves without taking a second job or living with family.
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such a lot of moaning faces on here, same as every comments section of this site…what a yawn fest, dear oh dear..such sad lives the readers here must have.
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Congratulations on a rattling good debate without once slagging off the UK. What a pleasant change. I’m proud of you all.
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bob
You must be the saddest of the lot if you keep on reading them
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christle
where have you been?
i’ve been taking this uncaring lot virtually on my own for the last week.
Lynnie
I knew I said I was finished but….. You are assuming that everyone who works is capable of moving on to higher things, you and I both know that is not the case so I say every full time job we have here in guernsey should carry a “living wage” We are a wealthy community so if you have to pay 50p extra to have your bar meal served to you or an extra few pence on your grocery bill to shop at 10.25 p.m. so be it.
bob
at least the folks here are debating a really serious issue if you can’t add to the debate go away!
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Kevin, I support your arguments totally, How can anyone bring up a family in a room and trying to compare senior citizens with people starting out in life, trying to put a roof over their heads and raise a family is just as ridiculous. AOPs get free bus transport how much would that put in a working persons pocket a week.
Low wage economies starve the market place of cash flow making it more difficult for business to earn and increase their own cash flow. It also makes it more difficult for government to raise tax revenue and much of the tax revenue they do generate is lost in subsistence benefits and doesn’t get to where it is really needed.
Low wage economies also tend to incur more social problems, child poverty and crime.
In my opinion, a proper living wage for the lowest paid is vital for a healthy economy. It has to be worthwhile for workers to go to work and provide for their families or they will find ways of staying at home and claiming benefits. Money circulating in the market place is for more important than money stuck in high value realty.
There is plenty of wealth to go round it just needs a little fairer distribution.
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I think 6 quid an hour is a pittance in Guernsey terms, and has been for years. I just wonder how many people in the island wouldn’t get out of bed for it, quite a few I’d bet.
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kevin and CM – I think that you miss Lynnie’s point. Not all jobs will be the sole source of income for a family. Some families will want to be able to take a second job to supplement their income. By insisting that every job should be a living wage on its own means that some jobs will cease to exist – hereby depriving some people of the opportunity of earning some extra cash.
You could say that if the “main” family job paid more then the second job will not be needed, but that is ignoring commercial reality – some jobs will be priced out of existence and if every job paid more then the poorer members will have to pay for it in the end. Those price rises will hit disposable income harder than saved/invested income and local inflation will be driven higher – not exactly ideal for the people you are trying to protect. The rich can deal with that, the poor cannot.
I hope we all want to ensure that the poorer members of our society are able to earn a decent wage compared to their outgoings and live a decent life – it is just that every policy has a knock on consequence and there is more than one way of trying to reach that goal.
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