2

Expat80

As hard as it is, one must face facts. 2 years ago on this posting facility I stated Guernsey urgently needs a population cap as the island can only take so many people before the islands way of life becomes completely destroyed. I am glad to see that the States are now thinking on the same lines. I hope Guernsey people support the same line of thinking.

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4

Ray

Was I away for the March 2009 census?

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6

Scarlett

OK. here’s one…

Builder imported on a short term essential licence to be foreman on a building site…

apparently, no one locally is genius enough to spend their day shouting at hairy *ss builders, drinking tea and clearing off early on P.O.E.T.’s night.

With him, comes his whole family.

Builder then buys LOCAL market property that in a couple of years time – unless another job with a licence comes up – he can own, but not actually LIVE in.

Result, several more people added to any already booming population for the sake of ONE imported worker that wasn’t actually needed, and a local market property soon to be under the ownership of an absent landlord who lives in the UK.

Could someone please explain the logic of the laws that allow this to happen…?

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8

Nat

Coco, instead of banning non-locals, why don’t we just introduce an intelligence test to keep out thick people? We could even make locals take the test and if they fail they could be deported. That way, we could get rid of the all the xenophobic idiots (as they are generally rather thick), and just have a propserous island….

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10

kevin

Coco your post is ridiculous. How many times do you people have to be told!

Between 4,000 and 6,000 guest workers in Guernsey depending on who you speak to. Only 250 unemployable people in Guernsey a further 250 between jobs.who is going to do the other 3,500 to 5,500 jobs? I can’t put it any simpler than that. I would love to know your answer.

Scarlett just out of interest what do you do for a living?

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12

simon

kevin
Your post is rediculous, we cannot allow an unsustainable amount of people into the island just because we have lots of jobs!

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14

coco

kevin i am telling you we have to many non locals in this island/coming in. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT A LOT DO TRY AND GET IN WITH LOCAL women/men AND END UP STAYING SOME DO HAVE KIDS THEN LEAVE THE OTHER HALFS KNOWING THAT THEY CAN STAY ( and then not working and claiming benafits. I am not saying that all local ppl would do the jobs that non locals do but a lot would,i know of a few who have gone for interviews only to find out that they have not got the job to a non local who can do the job cheaper. I suggest you do your homework kevin and stop talking cra*

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16

GG

Just a question, if two foreign people decide to come over here, with the woman already pregnant, and gives birth over here does this entitle them to stay here? If so I think this should be changed.

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18

kevin

simon
what’s the answer then?
coco
It’s along time since I’ve heard such rubbish on this site.Your post does not even deserve a proper reply. But here goes my post contains facts yours contains racist rubbish.

Scarlett
you appear to have something against hairy ar**d builders that’s all. i bet you work in an office.

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20

Jimm

I particularly hate the fact that people of different faiths are now starting to take hold in the island. This is a methodist island and as such, should stay such a way

I get angry every time I walk past the petrol station and there are people there greedily buying their spirit, whilst not thinking of our Lord!

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22

coco

Kevin your facts are rong.it sounds like you need to go back to school . And at playtime you can call as many names as you like. I take it your a hairy a&s builder

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24

kevin

Coco
if my facts are wrong prove it! I stick by what I said and i challenge anyone to prove me wrong. By the way i’m not in the building trade, if you see my DIY you’d know it. Can’t resist it i’ve just got say coco a bit rich asking me to go back to school when you can’t spell properly.
scarlett
you still didn’t say what you did for a living or indeed if you do anything for a living.

just one more thing , when Guernsey folk go to work in other countries are they not foreigners too? Hong Kong is pretty crowded but Guernsey folk still live and work there.

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26

TL

coco – your description of what supposedly goes on includes so many examples of things that are against the law that I suggest you take the matter up with the authorities.

If a person is in a genuiune relationship with a local then they can get a certificate of lawful residence. If they separate and move out (children or no children) then that certificate will be of no use and they will need a licence (essential or compassionate) or live open market. Unless you are saying that Housing are giving out compassionate licences willy nilly, your comments do not stack up.

an employer wanting to employ someone on an essential licence must demonstrate that the locals have been given a chance to go for the job, otherwise the licence is not granted.

CornishPasty – don’t worry, it is others that seem to be confused. sorry you feel the need to go.

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28

Scarlett

Kevin, yes, quite right, I didn’t.

Simon, yes, quite so-! ;0)

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30

The Man

Jim

Just out of interest, what do you think of the religous events in the UK (i.e the growing advent of Islam??)??

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32

kevin

TL
you are correct.

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34

Andy

Why not let everyone in like the UK then introduce positive discrimination laws and arrest anyone who objects for being racist?

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36

Beanjar

Andy says “Why not let everyone in like the UK then introduce positive discrimination laws and arrest anyone who objects for being racist?

I think we are pretty much there already, isn’t it the case that States Departments and the Police already give preference to anybody over local white males when recruiting? The current definition of “equal opportunities” seems to mean something very different to every applicant being judged on their own merits without discrimination.

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38

Ray

simon with a small s

Not sure I get your point re kevin

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40

Lynnie

I once had a woman give me two application forms for her sons and pretty much demanded that they be given a job because “they were good local boys” and persisted to tell me it was such a shame that we employed so many foreigners such as her! Pointing at one of the employees. Now unfortunately what she failed to notice was 1. No way was I going to employ her two sons who were clearly unable to get out from under their mother’s apron and 2. The person she pointed to was actually born and bred in Guernsey after their parents came across from Madeira in the 70’s. She was treated in exactly the same way as everyone else when interviewed as she had local status.

I don’t think the problem is the short term licences. They pretty much tend to leave the island after their term and are replaced by new short term candidates. It’s very difficult to live here illegally, not saying it doesn’t happen but is not the reason why the population has grown so much.

Essential licences are being challenged in the courts these days. Especially one’s concerning children. There’s a human rights element. I agree with Scarlett that there are “essential” licences out there that perhaps are not so essential and with a little work and effort by the employer could be employed on island.

My suggestions would be to look at the following
- Well established apprentice schemes
- More bursaries for students
- Graduate Management Schemes
- Clear training and succession planning in workplaces
This isn’t a quick solution, unfortunately I don’t think there is a quick solution. By simply putting a cap you put vulnerable areas such as education and health at risk. This is a long term plan which quite frankly should have started 20 years ago. The emphasis has got to be down to the employer and to do that the States will have to lean on them pretty hard.

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42

Jimm

The Man, my friend, my name is spelt with 2 Ms.

And with regard to those coming in to the UK, I feel it is slowly but surely eroding all traces of the British identity. It is much like a severe sandstorm on a motorcar, it will wear off the paint to just a plain shell.

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44

damo

Maybe Kevin is actually B.Flouquet !!!

He is merely creating spin on a story to take people off the scent that he is merely pointing at a problem. Mr. Flouquet…THAT’S OUR JOB !!!

Your job is to present possible solutions, so instead of rekindling the flames of debate hurry the hell up and find a solution.

By the way Jimm, i’m sorry if people buying alcohol on a Sunday offends your Methodism, but it doesn’t say anywhere in the bible not to embibe alcohol on a Sunday. Why not just pour yourself a sherry or creme de menthe and not worry about such a tiny matter !!! I think religion is a long way away from having any restraint on those spoiling society.

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46

Ginja Ninja

The posts on this site are becoming a joke with barely a coherent thought expressed, mostly finger pointing and name calling.

The population of the WORLD is growing rapidly and Guernsey is experiencing its share due to relative prosperity.
Guernsey is an attractive environment to live and work and will always attract people to live whilst that is the case.
That has been the case when there were jobs in horticulture then tourism and now financial services. It is difficult to turn back the clock on population without a catastrophic natural event or perhaps a land war. However in the island context this could be acheived by making the Island unattractive to the industries that use and import labour. SO the key to solving the poulation issue is not to agonise over new tax regimes to make the Island as competitive as our neighbours but to actively make us uncompetitive, therefore closing parts of the finance industry and solving the poulation issue at a stroke !!

Obviousy there is likely to be “collateral damage” No work for the local builders, hundreds of young undereducated local staff thrown on the streets with no prospect of future employment, but hey the states can always turn all the empty houses into a vast coucil estate.

But dont be moving to the UK looking for work, because maybe they will have outlawed that as well………..

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48

Dave Jones

Simon raises an interesting point. If we had a wealthy entrepreneur come to Guernsey tomorrow and offer to build a factory and employ 700 people we would probably say thanks but no thanks as we would have to import nearly all of them. Which would have knock on effects for housing, medical services, schools all kinds of things.

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50

Ginja Ninja

@Dave Jones

Excellent response, population growth caused by numerous factors but driven by prosperity. Including the return or slowdown in exit of the local population. It is good to know it is not all the fault of the licenceholder and his very extended family. I know there is a boat in the morning if I dont like it…………..but I am sure its full :)

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52

James

There is actually another important factor driving population growth, which is a combination of a birth cohort effect and longevity. Put simply, more older people, living longer.
Our population of over-80s grew faster than the population of working-age people.
As Dave Jones says, licenses only control a small proportion of the population.
We can’t control the total population with just the instrument of essential licenses – otherwise we’d have the ridiculous situation of “oh, two fewer old people died this year than expected, so we’ve reduced our number of paediatricians from 4 to 2″…

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54

Dave Jones

If you want to know what happens when you don’t control immigration, just ask the American Indians

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56

CD

James makes a good point – the fact we are living much longer changes the population figures significantly. Trouble is we need a bouyant economy to raise the tax revenues to pay all thaose additional States pensions – which in turn means we need economic growth and a larger working population (includinging more licence holders).

Catch 22.

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58

simon

CD
Thats an interesting post cuz it highlights to me that economic sustainability is accutally a moving target!
I guess the real question is how do we balance population growth with economic factors?
For me, some economic pain would be prefered rather than continued population growth.
I would also prefer an immigration policy that either turned people away or let them live her equally. As opposed to the current system which treats people differently.

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60

Dave Jones

Scarlett

I would be happy to respond.

The population grows for several reasons whether it is Guernsey people choosing to return, or through the marriage of locals to non locals, or birth rates and even through people living longer lives which of course has the effect of maintaining the overall numbers.
Two things need to be said up front, one is that we need and will always need to bring in people to help staff our essential services, many will have families they will want to bring with them which also adds to the numbers. However they bring with them skills and other benefits to our public services and to our economy in general, as well as the community as a whole, skills that have been gained elsewhere, more often at someone else’s expense (training etc) and I for one am grateful they chose Guernsey to live and work, they are a huge asset to this island and sometimes I think they are not always appreciated as much as they might be.
Secondly the population of Guernsey has always been left to the vagaries of its economic cycle and it grows in times of boom and shrinks in times of recession. Now you may ask if that is the case then what has happened with the latest figures that show the population has risen by 500 or so?
Well I think the answer to that is that Guernsey escaped the worst effects of recession and has come through that period relatively unscathed and as I said yesterday when recession bites hard elsewhere, local people tend to return home to where they are more likely to be employed and earn a decent wage. There have been hundreds of thousands of redundancies across the UK and it would be naive of us not to recognise that some Guernsey folk will have been victims of that process.

Scarlett as to your point about importing people for “non essential” jobs, there has always been a misunderstanding of the Housing control laws, the clue is in the title (Housing Control) At present anyone under the existing law who can prove they are legally housed is entitled to a Right to Work document. This is not an employment law it is only about the control of occupation of local market homes. Employers do have to prove to the Housing Department beyond reasonable doubt that they have tried to fill the job locally and failed to find anyone suitable but that only applies to people who are applying for licences to occupy local market homes. We have many guest workers who live in part A of open market accommodation, open market hotel staff accommodation, Specific guest worker accommodation sanctioned by the Housing Department, guest worker accommodation attached to care homes etc all of whom have “right to work documents”. I agree with you that any new law must cover the control and management of the whole population and not just the small percentage under licence; it must be robust enough to allow us as a government to decide who resides in Guernsey and how many that might be. It must also recognise people’s rights but at the same time take into consideration the rights of local people not to be crowded out of their own island. So I am with you on having a strong new law that addresses all these points. Your other point on single mothers is one I can’t really comment on, other than to say that it is the job of Housing to house families and older people in need, it is not our job to tell people how many children they can have, or indeed at what age they should have them, this is a matter of education and it is not for government to socially engineer the society it would prefer. Where would it end? Should we not help people who have an alcohol problem? Or those who have other problems due to poor diet or other poor lifetime choices simply because we might not agree with the way they live. The children did not ask to be born and it is our job to make sure they are properly housed regardless of what some members of the community might think of young single mothers. Of course employment opportunities should be there and they should be encouraged to take them if possible, I would also add that there are many single mothers who have been widowed or deserted after long relationships with their previous husbands, Women who have left violent marriages or relationships destroyed by drugs or alcohol, A few have left husbands and partners after sexual assaults on their own children or step children. There are many cases that I see every year that do not fall into the teenage mum category.

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62

Steve2

I have just read how Hazel Tetlaw is leaving her post at St Sampsons High and being replaced by a Mrs Bolt from the UK. This raises an obvious question though.
1)Why isn’t a local teacher filling that position? – I find it very hard to believe that there is no one in Guernsey qualified to do that job at that level.
I am also going to stick my neck out here and presume that ‘Mrs’ Bolt will be accompanied by her partner. So instantly thats an extra person who has to come to the Island in order for someone else to fill an essential position. I will also presume that as she is senior enough to be a head teacher and a Mrs, she will more then likely have children which again will add to the local population figures.
My point is that for every essential position filled there are usually a few other family members who also come into the island and use the local resources. I’m not saying its right or wrong but it is definitely something the States seem to forget when hiring from outside the island.

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64

Paul Le Page

Neil, I heard something very similar recently from another source.

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66

Scarlett

Thanks for your detailed response, Dave. Appreciated.

Just one or two points/questions.

The person I referred to in my original comment (who was most definitely far from essential, we having our fair share of builders over here, I think most will agree) was brought in on licence and has actually bought a local market house, which they now occupy with the rest of their family who they brought with them.

In a couple of years time, their current licence will expire, and if they aren’t similarly employed elsewhere, then the law says they can own the house, but not live in it.

Consequences: 1 local house owned by a (possibly/probably) soon to be absent UK landlord, who can own it, but not live in it, 4 jobs removed from the market for the price of 1, another young unmarried, non working mum living on the benny, and another States house soon to be taken by aforementioned mum, several illegitimate children and her English boyfriend (if he sticks around that is).

Mr Inder explained to me that this is a ‘free market economy’, which sounds all very lovely and pc, but in a small island where locals are supposedly screaming out for affordable housing and there is a limit to how much we can actually cram on our small land mass, I still cannot understand why the law allows someone who has NO guarantees that they can even continue to live in a local house (legally), to buy it.

I appreciate that this may come across as too simplistic, it simply doesn’t seem like common sense.

Also, talking of common sense, with regards to single/teen mums, and their various reasons for being so, yes, absolutely, some are very deserving causes, however, sorry Dave, but walk down the High Street any benny day afternoon and you will see a fleet of teen mums who’s ability to use contraception (or not) has without doubt been influenced by the fact that regardless of whether they do or not, why should they care, as the State – we – will take care of them, and that the only positive encouragement their benny cheques and ‘bigger houses for more illegitimate children’ bonus scheme give them is the urge to shop, not find a job…

I wonder if they actually had to experience the revelation of consequences for their actions, by only being able to afford to live with their parents (and baby), and get a part time job in a shop to pay for nappies, they would feel more encouraged to keep their pants firmly on…?

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68

Ribbitribbit

i agree with @Cheesedoff

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70

Shannon Louiise.

your all being so immature about this, your all arguing for no reason, you don’t even know each other so whats the point in starting an argument.

Everyone has their own opinions so let everyone have a say, whether you agree with it or not.

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72

Ribbitribbit

I think that the children over here get bored of living here when the getto about 14-15 and want to leave for england. And adults in england think this island is a beautiful place to live and want to experience living by the sea. Therefore more people can replace them so that the island still has adults to work. People in Guernsey can’t be selfish and say that they don’t want any “foreigners” on their land just because they want to live by the sea and in theis amazing place.

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74

kevin

simon,

“i guess the real question is how do we balance population growth with economic factors?” Go to the top of the class. I knew you’d get there in the end. You still don’t say how we can control the population level though.If you look at my first post concerning guest workers the fact is that those people are here doing the jobs local people don’t want. These guest workers do not build the population of the island as they are on 9 month contracts. In my earlier posts I’ve asked you time and again to say how you would control the population you won’t say. I think you would like to see laws brought in that would slow down the finance industry(the main driver of our economy) that would mean less jobs of ALL kinds in the island you just haven’t got the guts to say it. As for your point about the bulk mailer I would say “thanks, but no thanks we have all the business we can handle at the moment”.We do have a finite amount of land here and we are overcrowded but simon, as I’ve said all along, your way would damage the island?
Dave Jones has a good point in his post too maybe some of the rise in the population is Guernsey people returning home. Neil Inder spot on. Scarlett apologies if I offended you.

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76

duff man

most of the local people are racist i have to say
if we were to deport all non locals then the island would fall apart there are about 20,000 un–employed and all most all of them are local so to all of you saying we should deport people for stupid resons i wouldent be surprized if you were the one to be deported ..

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78

Lynnie

@duff man

No, the majority of local people are not racist. Some are xenophobic but that doesn’t necessairly go hand in hand with racism duff man.

20,000 unemployed?!! my god man do some research before you come out with figures like that. Unemployment in Guernsey is around the 400 mark.

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80

Lynnie

or are you counting people just don’t work in general such as children, oap’s….rich folk. I’m struggling to understand who these 20,000 are…

@Steve2

You would need a headteacher who has had experience in a similar role for a similar size school. This is a large school by Guernsey standards. I don’t think this is the right role for someone progressing from deputy to head. In which case we don’t have the experience on island. Unless one of the other heads from the other schools want to take the post….doubt they applied though…

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82

Dave Jones

Truth man

It’s a valid statement; The American Indians are now a tiny minority in their own country with their lands seized and divided up by white settlers with all the original treaties agreed with them reneged on. That is what the quote is trying to illustrate.
At the time of Christopher Columbus ‘ arrival in the New World, the Native American population living in what is now the United States was estimated at about one million. By 1880, only 250,000 Indians remained and this gave rise to the “Vanishing American” theory.
This was written by a Sioux tribal member in 2007.

In the US we have become a land of broken treaties, There where over 500 Nations languages and now there are less then 250, some tribes are disbanded, others grow strong, some the last of their kind will soon die, most are forgotten and will never be again.
It is a sad story of noble people who struggle to survive. Sons of massacred Fathers roam the US looking for Family, only to find the dead, the cattle of Ranchers trod and break down the graves of Ancient burial grounds, bulldozers clear the sacred dance grounds, bones of our dead are crushed underneath new 8 lane highways, we are to few to fight all the modern tools of progress. We are Unique because we are the Shame of our Nation and it doesn’t know how to deal with us. We are the thorn that needs to be removed, but can’t because others in the world are watching. We are unique. The other minorities, hate us because our cause is just, they hate us because, they want what little we have left, they hate us, they think their cause is greater and more worthy of attention, they have become as many others where racist to smaller minorities, they have become that which they hate the most.
We as Native Americans are unique in our own country.

Scarlett

Anyone living here under licence is free to purchase property but in fairness that applies in almost every country, for instance you can buy a home in the USA, New Zealand, Australia, in fact just about anywhere but you are still bound by the conditions of the permit or visa that allowed you into the country in the first place. We are no different, the terms of your licence if it is under 15 years is what prevents permanent residency, not the ownership of property. As I said it is our job to house mothers and their children, not to pass judgement. I understand the whole benefit system is being reviewed with a view to seeing where things can be tightened up.

Simon

How would you suggest we “halt” all immigration, would we prevent local people returning home or stop the husbands, wives or partners of Guernsey people being allowed in? What about open market residents? would we prevent their family members from coming to Guernsey. Would we for instance prevent vital doctor’s teachers, nurses and a host of other essential employees for our public services coming in under a complete ban on immigration. Do you really want tables set up at the Harbour and the Airport checking every passenger coming to Guernsey and giving them a leaving date? I agree that we need to control or at least manage a much higher percentage of those wishing to settle in Guernsey and any new law must reflect the deep concerns many local people have about the growing numbers. However there is no simple solution we will always need people to work in our less attractive industries and our public services and it is how we manage those numbers in the future that will determine whether we can keep the population reasonably stable.

Duff Man

I do not believe for a moment that “most local people are racist” that is a charge that is often levied against any indigenous population that shows concerns about the changing face and culture and in our case the over population of the island. To my knowledge there are a little over 470 people unemployed in Guernsey, so where you get the figure of 20,000 from is a mystery to many of us. Lastly, the island has managed to function for over 800 years with most of its trade, commerce, government and services run by Guernsey people and to my knowledge Guernsey has never fell apart as result.

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84

Donald

How about we do away with the finance industry here then we’ll end up with both an less populated island (all the rich bankers will leave) and also an island locals can once again afford to live on even if they’re not earning mega bucks.

Yes it would destroy the island for a while but then we coped before it was here, maybe the states would make more effort on growing and tourism again. It’s a shame such a beautiful island is going to waste

If locals could afford to live here, they might not be so quick to give up or else mass reproduce to just claim as much as they can in benefits.

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86

simon

Dave Jones
Should a local person be able to sell that right?

Lets face it some local people struggle on for the whole of their lives, trying to compete on an Island that is pretty unsympathetic to those who cant afford to live well here. We seem to attract a whole raft of people with more money than the average Guern so why not allow a direct benefit to those willing to leave and make room for the well off, rather than try to compete.

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88

Greg

Donald, if all the bankers left who’d pay for all the single Mum’s? Who would pay for the upkeep of the transport links? Who would pay for Aurigny to keep going?

The list is endless….

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90

GG

duff man | April 22, 2010 at 9:41 am
most of the local people are racist i have to say
if we were to deport all non locals then the island would fall apart there are about 20,000 un–employed and all most all of them are local so to all of you saying we should deport people for stupid resons i wouldent be surprized if you were the one to be deported .

If we were to class stupid people who cannot spell correctly, or use correct grammar. Then I think you’d be the first to go.

470 unemployed, most of them may be local. But is this because of the increased immigration? I think so.

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92

Dave Jones

Simon
You haven’t answered my question, how would you stop all those not under licence and entitled to live here from doing so. As I keep pointing out approx 93% of the population are free to come and go as they please, we do not live in a police state and people choose to bring partners and family members to live in the island perfectly legitimately. The open market consists of 1700 homes at the top end of the Housing market and was set up originally to attract wealthy entrepreneurs to the island at a time when their spending power and job creating businesses they set up were sorely needed; you have to remember Guernsey has not always enjoyed the wealth it has today. I accept that some islanders do struggle with high house prices and high private rental on the island which is why I have spent the last ten years trying to make sure we have built as many affordable rental homes as we can through the GHA.

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94

simon

Dave Jones
Maybe now Iv answered your question, you would be kind enough to go back through the posts above and answer mine? If you decide to (thanks in advance) would you please do it in the form of answers not questions!

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96

Dave Jones

Chris

What utter rubbish, of course you can buy a house in the European Union, there are any numbers of pure Guernsey people who own houses in the United Kingdom, France, Spain, Italy and I suspect several other EU countries. Secondly there is NOT unrestricted immigration from the EU into Guernsey, all EU nationals which include people from the UK who wish to work in Guernsey need a licence to do so. If as pure Guernsey people you want the same rights as EU nationals then Guernsey would have to join the European Union. Which then as a member would give you the rights you crave but it would also mean we would have as a member state adopt all the thousands of EU regulations? The finance industry would disappear as a direct result of our membership and over 500 million EU residents would have an automatic right to settle in Guernsey, which is the common agreement in the European Union and enforceable under EU law. You say we have swept this all under the carpet I don’t think we have. The simple fact is that we are NOT part of the European Union and are signatories to just 3 protocols, which are the European convention on Human rights, the free movement of horticultural and agricultural goods and finally the free movement of travel through the island as part of the EU common travel area. So in order to get the same rights as those in the EU you have to ask yourself if you are prepared to give up everything else, our freedom to govern ourselves, the freedom to pick and choose what laws we adopt, the freedom to determine who settles in the island and the freedom of not having to conform to libraries of EU directives. You talk about justice you would have a great deal to complain about if Guernsey became part of the EU I can assure you. I also have to say that I have found no practical restrictions from pure Guernsey people being unable to live and work in any EU country and although it might entail applying for a work permit I have not come across a recorded case where one has been refused, so it isn’t a huge problem, if it was we would hear lots of Guernsey people letting us know.

Simon

It will be for the States to decide when any new law is presented what they want to do about controlling the population of Guernsey a debate they have never had as their has never been a population policy decided by the States. I am really looking forward to that debate which should take place before the end of this term. The people here under licence are considered essential to our economy and public services and as I keep saying they are NOT the biggest movement in population.

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98

Jackie (Bisset)

Hello Dave!
Honest answer to an honest question – I tink there are too many deputies and we are over represented – would you consider a racket for the states to reduce the number of deputies?

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100

Dave Jones

Jackie

There are many people who believe there are too many States Members so you are not alone in your view. My view is that you have to be careful not to reduce the numbers to such an extent that you create the kind of imbalance that would make democracy almost meaningless. First of all we have ten departments and two scrutiny committees all these need political members to populate them in order to formulate policy and in the case of the scrutiny committees investigate department policy and issues of good governance, that is of course if you don’t want to leave all the decision making to the civil servants which I presume you don’t. Secondly you must always have enough members on the floor of the house to defeat the votes of the Ministers and deputy Ministers should the need arise, a total of 20. If you don’t then you are in real danger of having little more than an elected dictatorship as this group could always dominate the voting in the house. If you stretch too few members to far in respect of the amount of work they would need to take on, then they would simply not be able to cope with the amount of reading they would need to do and the number of meetings they would need to attend. I don’t think the public realise sometimes the huge amount of work deputies have once elected A minister for instance will be expected to head up a government department and read all the papers concerning that department they will need to become familiar with all their department policies and correspondence. Then as a member of the Policy Council they will be expected to read all other documents and policy reports from every other department as well as all the papers from the various sub groups they may have a seat on. The Chief Minister will expect you to be able to inform the Policy Council in detail and at length on your departments brief if necessary and it would be expected that all Ministers would be well briefed and up to speed on the latest policy changes from all the departments. In addition they will need to find time to prepare for the monthly States sittings and all the various topics in the billet for that month, together with reading and digesting all the other reports published from scrutiny, treasury, police, health services together with any audit reports. You will also need to find time to deal with constituency problems which can often be varied and many, they can range from simple problems like badly parked cars to complex issues that find you dealing with the children’s services or the police, writing letters to the Health, Housing and Education departments or the seemingly never ending problem with planning applications at Environment. For those states members who do not hold Ministerial posts their workloads don’t get any easier for them either. They will often be members of several different departmental boards and will have all the reading and meetings that pertain to those departments in addition to reading States billets and preparing for the monthly states meetings. Given all of that I do not see how we could give the business of the States the proper attention it demands if we had to few people to do the work. It could, as I say be done by the civil servants but they are not elected by anyone and are therefore not accountable to public.

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102

Sean McManus

Jackie (alias “Colourful jack”?)

You appear to have a bee in your bonnet about the number of Deputies in the States. I agree with Dave’s analysis re. the need for the majority of elected representatives to be able to outvote the collective bloc of the Policy Council and associated placeholders… although I do accept that they don’t always vote as a bloc.

I could envisage a slimmed-down departmental system with a consequent reduction in the total number of Deputies, jackie, but would robustly oppose any move towards a cabinet-based or presidential system with all its associated and unaccountable patronage.

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104

simon

Dave Jones
You didnt answer my question, but thanks for the deflection.
It seems no one has any clear ideas about managing this issue.
If you have any clear proposals or ideas and you not afraid to post them, then Im all ears?

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106

Bob

I agree with Dave Jones on deputy numbers – slimming down the States would have to concentrate more power in the hands of the CS in order to reduce the workload of the remaining deputies.
Where I think Dave misses the point a bit, is that half the time he and the others just do what the CS tell them anyway, because they don’t fully understand the technical arguments behind what’s put in front of them.
Overall, I’d keep the numbers, as having some “spares” leads to an internal opposition and some scrutiny as deputies have time to do some research, develop policy and do all the “constituency” work which nobody sees.
I also don’t like the idea of non-deputies or non- CS people on committees/boards as they are unelected and unaccountable. Yes they have expertise, but also vested interests in many cases.
Population can’t be entirely controlled, but it can and needs to be managed better. Dave’s department issues licences, and attempts to keep the “essential” ones to a minimum as I understand it. But this isn’t a population control device so much as a housing control device. The states have repeatedly rejected any attempt to even work upon a population control strategy. That isn’t housing’s fault.
We used to have a Population and migration committee – whose mandate is that now?

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108

simon

Bob
You put forward some interesting points, I would be interested in your views on Island wide voting?

I think a key problem with curreny immigration is the misuse of the word “essential”. Im convinced Dave Jones has a very different perception of its meaning than most people I speak to!

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110

Dee

Go shannon ;) i competely agree with you!

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112

Dee falla

haha. shannon i completely agree with you, well said;)

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114

simon

Bob
Browns gaffee was an unfortunate consequence of the goldfish bowl nature of a modern day election campaign. If Brown had been true to his own political beliefs he would never have served in a Blair government, or for that matter in a party called New Labour.
I think the UK has very different immigration issues to Guernsey.
I have tried to debate local immigration issues previously on here. Dave Jones is obviously particularly busy just now but all Iv been getting from him is a breakdown of the problem rather than any proposed solutions. Im hoping to hear more from him.

I know that Steve-O is also interested in the issue as is Scarlett GG kevin and im sure many others. Maybe one day we can have a debate on here that does not lower itself to racism or xenophobia. Personally I say lets include everyone and hear everyones views but others are less tolerant, seem intrenched in their own possitions and dismissive. Thus the debate is usually over before it begins.

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