1

Gayle

I think Jehovah’s Witnesses are their happiest when they are building a Kingdom Hall. They have something to show for all their effort. If they could always build or do community charitable work I think they would be happier. The door to door work is so unproductive and boring. The children hate it but cannot be truly honest without getting stern counselling so they say they like it to get desperate praise from their parents. If they really had a choice to do a type of charitable work , the children would eagerly choose otherwise. They are taught that they must go door to door even when people don’t listen in order to be saved through Armageddon. Poor JW children have a childhood with much negativity and programs unrealistic for their ages, and therefore, most of them leave the religion and if they were ever baptized, their own parents must absolutely shun them.

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3

John Charles

Investigate their portfolio

This is a failing organization (corporation) that is bloated with money like Scientology,and like Scientology exaggerates it’s membership and discredits it’s critics.

There are TWICE as many EX-Jehovah’s Witnesses as active ones with thousands leaving every month.

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5

Lucy L

What those volunteers don’t realize is that their group has morphed into a real estate developer posing as a religion. The Watchtower has been developing properties in New Your City with volunteers for years, and now they are selling all of it at great profit.

Regarding the preaching of the “good news” Mr. Parker mentioned, despite the countless hours spent knocking on doors to share this “good news”, I doubt there are many reading this who could even tell you just what the “good news” is. Lots of people think JW’s don’t even believe in Jesus, but they do and he is in fact an integral part of their “good news”. So one has to wonder how successful their important preaching work really is. Instead of being successful in spreading the good news, JW’s have become a religion known better for what they don’t do, like not celebrating holidays, not taking blood transfusions, or not saluting the flag.

Maybe the door knocking is just to keep them busy between real estate projects.

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7

Bob

Gayle, just another whiner/loser who failed to make a success of the best opportunity on earth. The door-to-door work is NOT unproductive and boring, unless you’re no good at it. There are THOUSANDS- no MILLIONS- of us who thoroughly enjoy it and see the purpose. Many of us learned how as kids, did not miss out on anything useful, and are successful in all we do spiritually and in everyday life

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9

Karen

Gayle,

I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and feel so blessed to be so. Yes, it’s true, we love to build Kingdom Halls and see the growth every year in the number baptized. This growth shows that the ministry IS productive. But whether it is productive or not, it is a commission from Christ Jesus to do this most important work. In fact this world-wide preaching work is part of a compostite sign that Christ shared w/the disciples and said it would mark the “last days.” In Matthew 24:14 Jesus said: “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to the nations and then the end will come.” This is what Witnesses are doing, door to door, town to town, state to state, and from country to country. In 235 lands, Witnesses are sharing this good news of God’s kingdom and how it is only this kingdom that will solve all of mankind’s problems. Though not all will listen to the message, some do, as the new Bible studies every year will attest.

You need not feel sorry for Jehovah’s Witnesses’ children, Gail. Most are happy and more importantly, protected from the loose morals that is common among others their age. I would say that there are more unhappy children that are not Witnesses…they have no real role models to look up to.

Jehovah’s Witnesses live their faith, it is not something we do just on Sundays. James 2:26 says that, “…faith without works is dead.” Not that works saves a person, but one who has real faith would be evident by their works, that is, in their actions… how they live their life day to day. Jesus too, said in speaking of true Christians and false ones that, “by their fruits” you would know them. (Matthew 7:17-23)

We try our best to follow Christ’s footsteps…he too along w/the first Century Christians did the door to door ministry. Are we better than our Christ? No, we are not. Acts 5:42 says, “And everyday in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus. (See also Acts 20:20)

We will continue this most important work that is being done on the earth today until Jehovah says the work is done…..and then “the end will come.” Karen

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11

Sean

I’m sorry but the above comment is incorrect. Being brought up as a Jehovah’s witness and going from door to door makes you a much stronger person. You learn how to talk to people, how people think and it gives you a much broader sense of society in general. It builds confidence to be able to speak with anyone. Look at many other children who shudder at the thought of talking to someone in authority about what they believe, and then compare them to a JW youth who is able to speak without that overwhelming fear. No, JW youth have the best start. The reason we go door to door is because it is a command from Jesus when he said ‘ this good news of the kingdom must be preached to all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations’. That is our primary responsibility, to speak to others about the wonderful prospects for them. JW’s are not a charity, although they do a lot of charitable work. Also the statement that most JW children leave is a total over statement. Yes, it is true some children brought up as JW’s leave, but a large proportion come back when they realise that this world has nothing better to offer them, so to say that most leave is total rubbish. While it is true that if someone wilfully leaves and was baptised that they would be disfellowshipped, this is not a punishment on that person. It is a way for them to realise what they are giving up or losing. To say that parents must shun their children is again an overstatement. While it is true that certain things would be changed, but if the child still lives at home then normal family life and communication can continue. It is only grown adults who have moved out that will have more limited communication, and saying that, they are still able to speak because they are family. So many people have either a warped idea about JW’s or are Haters and Apostates. Go see for yourself what these people are like, don’t listen to every sensational story you here.

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13

GG

Keep your religion to yourself, I’m a proud Catholic, but I don’t go around getting you lot to support Allah, do I?

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15

Dean

I have to say I get a little disappointed that these guys don’t come to my door. I would relish the opportunity to have a theological debate with them, and do my utmost to persuade them to turn their lives around. Maybe I should just find out where they live and go knocking, presumably they are OK with this.

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17

Sensible

It is clear from the comments above that some JWs are proud of their religion and feel the door to door work is worthwhile. It is also clear from many past experiences that most JWs are not proud of their religion, they are embaressed doing door to door calls and only do it because they are obliged to if they wish to remain part of that religious group. The reason this is so clear is that when JWs turn up on your doorstep, they never introduce themselves in the manner that virtually every other cold caller would. We all expect polite introductions from strangers on our doorstep, saying who they are and what their purpose is for calling upon us e.g. ‘Good Morning, I’m Paul Le Page and I’m one of the local candidates in next month’s election’ or ‘I’m DC Smith of Guernsey Police and I’d like to talk to you about crime prevention’. JWs don’t do this. At best they first names and never reveal the purpose of their visit. Something like ‘I’m Phil and this is Joan, is it a good time for a chat?’ Such behaviour is considered suspicious and devious by most people, trying to lure people into a conversation they don’t want to have by not revealing the callers true identity and pupose. If only JWs could be honest and open about their calls rather than using illicit means to achieve their call quota there might just be a more accepting attitude towards them. As it stands theyt come across to me and many others I know as an intrusive, annoying cult.

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19

Karen

To all those who don’t want a return visit, you can ask to not be called on anymore. To say “I’m not interested” does not mean the same thing….your circumstances could change the next time, could they not? Those who ask to not be called on are put on a “Do not call on” list. We do not return if you have been put on the this list.

I’m amazed though at the amount of those who continue to say they are a proud Catholic, when it is very clear that the coverups have existed for decades and have involved even the pope….you can choose to remain a Catholic, I just don’t understand how you can remain a proud one.

For those who speak out of hatred, I pray for you…we are happy, and will continue to preach door to door, just as the first Century Christians did and were commissioned to do by Christ. It is the most important work being done on the earth today. Nothing will stop this work, it will continue until Jehovah says the work is done…and then as Matthew 24:14 states, “….and then the end will come.”

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21

Karen

I’m sure there were those who thought the apostles and the first Century Christians who came to their doors were “intrusive” also….what’s new? Jesus told them: “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet.” (Matthew 10:11-14) “And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.” (Acts 5:42) “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ (Matthew 10:7)The apostle Paul stated: “while I did not hold back from telling any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.” (Acts 20:20)

Jesus, the apostles and first Century Christians did this work….are we better than they that we don’t have to do the same work? It is a commission from Christ that all true Christians are to do….Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones who appreciate this fact and have taken it to their hearts to listen to follow Jesus’ command. There are no “quotas,” just a desire to follow our Christ’s footsteps as best as imperfect flesh can.

“In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely.” (1 Peter 2:21)

Jesus declared: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)

Jesus before he ascended to heaven declared: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations….” (Matthew 28:19a)

This good news is to be shared with all, so like our leader, Christ Jesus, we do what was commissioned for true Christians to do. It is your choice if you do not want to listen….but it is our choice to follow the commission given. Agape, Karen

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23

muzeek

Several years ago I was visited regularly by J W folk and regularly participated in debate with them, so much so it became a joke in my family that I was being used for training purposes.

During these debates I always brought up the subject in that they were totally against blood transfusions, which really puzzled me as to how a so called christian organisation could allow their children to die as in the past against the wishes of medical experts.

Next time I brought this up I was informed that they were not using blood but plasma, which upon investigation I learnt was a derivative of blood, which again puzzled me somewhat.

The last time they called on me I had a brainwave I asked if like the majority of the public did they go out to restaurants and eat red meat like steak etc.
I was told they did but that it was OK because the meat had already been drained of all blood.

That really isn’t possible, I rest my case.

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25

bart

Hells bells, what a load of smelly shoes. Keeping knocking on doors and keep getting turned away. How many people have you converted from non-believers to JW’s in Guernsey? Of those, how many werent vulnerable.

Karen, you state that “It is the most important work being done on the earth today” I beg to differ and i for one wouldn’t have enough room on this forum to write a list longer than both mine and your arms of what is more important in this world. The only importance is the sales increase in WD40 for the worn out door hinges of all the doors you knock on.

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27

Karen

Sensible,

Is it sensible for us to declare we have a “do not call on” list?” That is not the purpose for our coming to your door. We desire to SHARE the good news about God’s kingdom. Do you need someone to tell you that you don’t wish to be called on anymore? To say, “No, thankyou,” or “I’m busy,” or “I’m not interested” is not the same as saying “Do not call on me anymore.” I mentioned it, because we do not force ourselves on anyone. We come to the doors, as I have stated, because this is exactly what Jesus, the apostles and the first Century Christians did and also what Christ commissioned for all true Christians to do. You may not like that, but take that up w/Christ, who you claim to follow. Our faith is also very personal to us, but it was meant to be shared with others as Jesus directed.

Jesus compared the last days with the days of Noah. He said people would be busy in their lives and “would take no note,” as in Noah’s day “until the flood came and swept them all away.” Jesus said that is how it would be today. (Matthew 24:36-39)

The apostle Peter stated: “For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” For according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.”(1 Peter 3:3-6))

Noah did not keep to himself what was to occur in his day, as noted in 2 Peter 2:5: “And he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;” He is called a preacher of righteousness, because he shared w/all the things that were to soon occur.

No, it is no mistake that Jesus declared that the last days would be like those of Noah’s. The people laughed at Noah, thought he was foolish to build an ark. But Noah did not let that stop him from doing Jehovah’s will. As the Bible states, “He did just so.” We, as Witnesses want to be found doing “just so” in following the commands that Christ Jesus and his Father have given true Christians to do. Our hearts compel us to do this work, no “quota” could keep this work going. It is Jehovah’s will and he provides the needed holy spirit to accomplish this work. As Jesus taught us to pray, “Let your kingdom come,Let your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:9,10) This declaring of the good news of God’s kingdom will be fulfilled. And just as in the days of Noah, “then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) Agape, Karen

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29

Karen

Bart,

Only time will tell who is correct. I wish you no ill. But do not claim to know why I or any other goes to the doors….I have stated my reason why I do this work. I will continue to do this most important work until Jehovah stops it. I see weak people in this world, whether on TV or in the newspaper. They have no morals, are in spiritual darkness and make no effort to know what is the truth about God and his purpose for mankind. To become a Witness, one must have the strength to be different, to be mocked, at the door, or on sites like this one. If it were on our own strength, this work would have fizzled out decades ago. Jehovah’s Witnesses have died in concentration camps, they have been persecuted in the US during the first world war….as the history books will attest and are persecuted still in some countries where they are banned. Many may have been weak before baptism, but God’s holy spirit gives them all the strength they need to endure. He did so with those who were persecuted in the first century, he did so with those who refused to sign a paper denouncing their faith in Nazi Germany and were put in concentration camps, and he is continuing to give holy spirit to his faithful ones today. That is why we can do this work, a work that other so-called Christians feel is beneath them to do. Jesus, before he died, washed the feet of the apostles, a very humbling act. He was teaching them an important lesson. We are to give of ourselves to others and not to think something that Christ himself did as beneath us.

There are many things that I could share w/you also, more than the lenghth of my arm, as you say….but your intent is to mock, which is your right, but I will continue to preach and go house to house….it wasn’t beneath Jesus, and it isn’t beneath me. Matthew 24:14 Agape, Karen

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31

Captain Oveur

Re Karens comment “a work that other so-called Christians feel is beneath them to do”

I consider myself a Christian, I do not go door knocking, but most certainly not because I feel it is “beneath me”. That’s an incredibly bold statement and you’ve never even met me (or most other Christians out there) yet you have judged us all.

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33

Karen

Martino and GG,

Why have you come onto a site that was relaying news on the Witnesses building a Kingdom Hall? If you want us to leave you alone and if you, as Martino, welcomes “free-thinkers,” then I would think you would not even waste your time to click on the article about the Witnesses. Or is your aim to spend lots of time belittling Witnesses? If you have no interest, shouldn’t you be sharing views on some “free-thinkers” subject or site? Just wondering.

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35

Paul Le Page

“If one of our grown children begin to conduct themselves in gross dis-harmony with Bible principles and leave the home then they would be considered poor association and we would shun them unless they wanted to return to conduct that is clean according to Bible standards.”

Thank God that Jesus didn’t adopt the same self-righteous viewpoint when he ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. On a personal level, thank God my Christian (there is a difference between a Christian and a JW) parents didn’t do that with me when I was out raising hell. Instead they loved me throughout and treated me no different – that is a genuine Christian response and I am eternally grateful for it. Christians should always remember that there but for the grace of God go we.

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37

Bill

Surely if your religion does not gain enough followers without going door-to-door then it’s a bit pointless?

How many regular CoEs do you see going round knocking on doors? Not many, that’s for sure.

Personally I resent having JWs turn up at my door asking me to read their literature or go to one of their kooky meetings and I feel that they can sometimes be quite imposing, which is a feeling I don’t want to get in my own home.

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39

Dean

muzeek, I found out recently that the ‘blood’ in steak etc is actually sarcoplasm. Slightly off topic but I have been waiting a while to share this interesting fact.

Keep eating that steak JWs!

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41

Bogart

Karen and all of your fellow cult members.

Trust me, if you turn up at my door you will be left in no doubt that I an not interested. You won’t need a list, you will remember!

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43

Dave Haslam

I am loving this thread.

Well done for JW for proving why you cant really have a proper debate with a religous fundamentalist.

I thought religious people were non-judgemental, to that end I find the JW’s bad mouthing of catholicism above quite disturbing (and no little ironic), but then the sun always shines on the righteous and all that eh??

Right gang, lets step it up a notch.

A couple of questions for anyone that cares to answer.

Catholics, JW’s, Men of Science…

Please explain the Dinosaurs??

Who was Darwin, and how did one man get it soooo wrong??

How was the universe formed??

What are your views on scientology??

Why do bad things happen to good people??

What is cancer??

Please explain your views on homosexuality??

It is not my intention to debunk anything here, but I think Martino’s answers to the above questions would make a damn sight more sense than Karens.

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45

Martino

Hi Karen, just to explain that I was drawn into this thread by Gayle’s original posting, which intrigued me I guess because I’ve had the Witnesses calling on me in the past (I tried engaging but found it pointless and in my top flat location I don’t see very much of them these days).
I won’t rile you any further because I think you have enough on your plate with all the others here who are hostile to your religion.

Onto having a quick stab at Dave’s questions

1. The dinosaurs evolved through natural selection, same as all the other species that ever lived on this planet, and were wiped out by an asteroid hit 65 million years ago.

2. Darwin was a great pioneering scientist and he got it right.

3. Er, I don’t know how the Universe was formed.

4. Scientology is another weird religious cult, a bit like the Witnesses.

5. Bad things happen to good people because the creative force behind the Universe (call it God if you like) is neither malign or benign but essentially indifferent to what happens to us here on this planet.

6. Cancer is a disease or set of diseases caused by cell damage and abnormal cell growth.

7. Live and let live.

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47

CO

I do hope for your sake JWs that none of you come a knocking on my door. Especially if I happen to be enjoying a nice juicy rare steak at the time.

Also keep away from my elderly parents who shouldn’t have to tell you not to call again. It’s common sense to not frighten old people on their own doorstep. Pick on someone your own size.

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49

simon

Great quiz dave!

1) Bunch of creatures that used to exist. Far too few evolutionary links to confirm their process of evolution. Dating evidence is mostly of circumstance rather than anything direct.

2) Darwin, a fairly average scientist with one exceptional concept/idea!

3) The answer to this I know with some certainty…… NOBODY KNOWS !

4)Scientology, a religion made from, one very clever mans, obsevations about society and human interactions. (in some ways similar to Darwinism!)

5)All things are subject to the same random nature of the universe, thus bad things come to those who wait just as good things come to those who dont!

6)One of the controling forces in population growth.( Maybe Darwin would disagree!)

7)Your place or mine? I jest of course however Darwin would maybe see this as a factor of selection or as a controling force in population growth!!

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51

Dan

Simon, Darwin came up with the idea of evolution but to become a theory that idea has undergone decades of peer review and testing.

Thats the point of science; there is no belief, you either corroborate or refute the findings of other scientists through ongoing experimentation.

Thus far, no-one has found a test that refutes the theory; not even the intelligent design nutters whose argument is basically “this sea urchin/flower/thing is so amazing nature could not have got there by accident”, as if some magic man in the sky making it all on the same day was a more reasonable explanation. Every time they have come up with a thing that they say could not possibly have been arrived at through gradual incremental change over millions of years, scientists have undertaken an experiment and found evidence to refute their claim.

If someone did come up with solid evidence that gave reason to refute the theory of evolution, a good scientist would undertake their own experiment and should be prepared to change their thinking on the subject. This often happens in science, never in religion.

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53

DrBob

Ahh religious fundamentalists, don’t ya just love ‘em?

Here’s a fun list from http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/still-more-things-atheists-didnt-do/ of a load of things that atheists DIDN’T do. (the clue is in the url, see?)

I feel blessed by my lack of faith.

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55

bcb

Dan
Unless you or anyone knows how life began i dont think it is accurate to call people nutters because they believe it was created?. i am all for evolution but even that had to start from somewhere.

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57

kevin

Good news, at least it keeps them off my doorstep!
If I wanted to embrace their religion I’m more than capable of finding out about it myself.

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59

Martino

Ah, bcb, but you don’t believe the earth was created from scratch in just six days by a supernatural all omnipotent force and that it’s only 6,000 years old?

That kind of belief surely is a bit nutty, like believing the earth is flat or that the States are on top of public spending or that there’ll be no more road closures after today…

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61

bart

Scarlett & co. I wonder if Karen has been asked by her peers to stop arguing with the non-believers and concentrate on wearing out her knuckles?

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63

bcb

Martino
No i dont believe in any of that, i have never read the bible and have no time for any religeon at all.
I have read heaps on this subject and the further you delve into it the more you become aware that there are no scientists who can get even close to explaining how life begun with any facts. From the evidence i have seen i feel it is just as likely that that it could have been created, but by who or what? i just dont know.

geoff
Given that there is only really two ways for life to arrive and you or anyone else hasen`t really got a clue which is right, i think normal people would just say they dont know. for you to suggest you do know but without the details is purley down to your belief which your entitled to.

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65

Tom/jerry

Geoff!
I do truly feel sorry for you-or are you just putting a face of bravado?

Of course you may think whatever you like-
but can you honestly that you have never been in a situation; when unexpectedly the situation is solved.

May God bless you Geoff, thank goodness for your sake He is willing to forgive.

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67

Paul Le Page

Some atheists think religious people are ‘nutters’ because they believe the earth was created by God. Fair enough, they’re entitled to think what they like, and it doesn’t bother me being called names.

I on the other hand can understand why many people subscribe to the theory of evolution. If you don’t believe in God it remains the most plausible and reasonable explanation for the origins of life.

I believe in God, so I find it equally plausible and reasonable to believe that the earth was created in 6 days. After all, if there is an omnipresent, omnipotent God, it’s hardly a big deal for him to create life, is it? Being a Christian (not a JW I hasten to add) requires faith in God. The big leap of faith is to believe God exists – once that step has been taken, believing in things like creation, the flood etc. is pretty straightforward in comparison.

Incidentally I don’t have an opinion on the ‘young earth’ thing and frankly I’m not too bothered. The truth is that the Bible doesn’t give any definitive indication of the age of the planet – perhaps God didn’t consider it that important to tell us. As Galileo said “The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.”

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69

Vic Gamble

Surely Paul if you can rationalise there is a God, then it stands to reason you can rationalise just about anything you like…especially if you get handed the “He made it all one week before taking a day off on Sunday.” as a crucial part of that somewhat madcap Christian belief.

It may hold water for you, but for some of us the water leaks with the downpour as from a bottomless bucket.

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71

Sydney

Wow, reading through these comments I see a lot of angry and argumentative people.

Both Jehovah’s Witnesses and the general public have been commenting on this website.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are knocking on your door not because they don’t have enough ‘followers’, not because they want to force their religion and their beliefs on you but to teach.

Kids drop out of school if they don’t want to learn, or, they simply don’t pay attention but the teacher knows that it is the student’s best interest to learn so that that child can be able to support him/herself in life.

Witnesses are only trying to teach. They want to teach what the Bible says and means.

If one doesn’t want to learn what the Bible teaches, then tell the Witness you do not want them to come back.

A Witness does not say that this is an option just as a teacher does not say to a student, if you don’t want to learn, then drop out of school and become unemployed.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a cult and are not brainwashed which seems to be the big statement these days.

Just because Jehovah’s Witnesses are happy, kind people who can worship their God, maintain peace with their neighbors and enjoy life all at the same time does not mean they are brainwashed.

If anyone has a genuine question about Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs and is not just searching for an argument, I can do my best to answer it.

- Sydney

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73

Ray

Sidney

Is it correct that JW’s have to contribute 10% of their weekly / monthly income to the cause ?

Doesn’t that make it a sort of business enterprise ?

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75

expat

Sydney
is it true (as I have read) that it is the JW’s belief that all other churches and all governments are controlled by the devil ?

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77

Sydney

Scarlett –
I read the article you described and what it says is that if a child remembers being abused they can speak to their abuser directly or phone them. What this article is saying is that because it is a child, they may be making up the memories or simply being confused about what they remember.

Reading this article can be slightly confusing considering it is saying that elders will not do anything regarding the abuser without substantial evidence.

But, if you think about this in a different way, it does make sense and is fair.

A child may dream of that happening, or imagine it and has convinced him or herself that it really happened. If the elders act on what a child says without any evidence, the person the child is accusing could easily be innocent.

Generally, a child would not be in a situation where he or she is alone with a man or woman who is not their mother or father. If the abuser is the mother or father or perhaps a different family member residing with the family, then the elders would have to seriously take into consideration the accusations of the child.

If a child made an accusation against someone residing in his or her home, any member of the family that is not being accused would automatically fear for the safety of their child and keep a close eye on the situation so that they can provide that firm evidence if the adult sees that happening.

Child abuse is a touchy matter and is completely and totally wrong, no Jehovah’s Witness disagrees with this fact.

Each situation would be treated differently depending on many factors, how old the child is, who saw what happen, where this took place and who was being accused.

Jehovah’s Witnesses in no way tolerate child abusers and they would do whatever they could to protect the child.

Ray –

Contributions are completely voluntary, no one forces you to pay money and no one specifies how much you are to contribute. Each donation can be anonymous, not even the head of the congregation knows who put in how much money unless the person donated a signed check. One month you can donate five dollars, three months later you can donate one hundred dollars, it is completely up to the individual how much and when they want to donate.

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79

melc

I don’t why but JW’s never come to my house.. they go up and down the street door knocking.. but never since I’ve lived there have they are knock on my door.. ?.

I think they know that I’m just going to hell.

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81

Dave Haslam

Paul

Sorry but I am not getting the gist of your post, it appears to be very black and white in that you either are religious, or a skeptic, apologies of this is not the case, its just how I am reading it.

I cannot beleive that once a leap of faith has been taken every other question can be answered by the fact that god exists.

Why did my car break down……..?

Surely it is possible to beleive in a divine creator, but also beleive in evolution, and other breakthroughs in cosmology and astrophysics etc that science is providing to explain the nature us and of the universe etc, maybe with these breakthroughs we are actually getting closer to god.

I was pondering this over my morning coffee, and the massive bout of creationism that occurs about 5 minutes hence, that I personally beleive that science and religion can move forward together, in fact I do beleive that most religions are missing a step by not embracing science moreover, instead of being in my opinion rather stubborn to increasing empirical evidience that contradicts their texts claims.

Perhaps its a bleed-over from religions very intolerance of science, almost 1000 years of oppression which makes me very sceptical towards organised religions actual goals.

I beleive in (a form of) god, but I dont beleive what any book tells me, because as someone eloquently put above, the bible and other religious texts were written by men, and naturally include other motivations.

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83

muzeek

Paul

I need convincing on the following for starters.

The virgin birth, how can there be.

The 6 day creation.

Noahs Ark carried 2 of every kind of animal on the earth.

The feeding of the 5 thousand.

If there is a God why did it take him until just 2 thousand years ago to show himself, when mankind has been in existence for many thousands of years, surely he was needed a long time before he apparently appeared

I could go on, but until these matters are fully explained fully I cannot see how one can have faith.

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85

Phil

Muzeek, Martino

I’m afraid that common sense and religion are not friends, so there is no point in asking the questions that you do.

God exists because religious people believe that he does. It’s as simple as that, you cannot argue against such an illogical situation because they’ll just keep repeating “but I believe it, but I believe it”, time after time. How any intelligent person subscribes to any of that stuff is beyond me, I seriously believe that there must be something missing when an educated human being has any religious beliefs whatsoever.

We’re born, we live, we die, end of. No heaven, no hell, no virgins (unfortunately), no eternal fires, just a rotting body in a coffin, or ashes (depending on your personal choice).

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87

Paul Le Page

Dave – I don’t believe it is black and white, that wasn’t the gist of my post, so I think you’ve misunderstood it. Let me explain: I personally believe that science and Christian faith are wholly compatible; I actually enjoy and respect science and learning how things work in the universe.

I think you’ll find that the vast majority of religious believers (of any faith) don’t see an incompatibility with science. For starters, many religious people end up in the medical profession. If I had a problem with science I wouldn’t visit my local doctor! That doesn’t mean I don’t pray for healing – I do both, and I don’t see an incompatibility there. God gave us brains to use – he also intervenes supernaturally.

The quote from Galileo I posted above pretty much sums up my view. I was posting in the context of certain religious beliefs, mainly in the realm of the supernatural: such as creation, the virgin birth etc. Without a belief in God such things are impossible, however with a belief in God, such things become very possible. For me it’s a question of authority: as a Christian I am happy to accept any scientific theory that doesn’t contradict the Bible. So, for example I am happy to accept that creatures adapt through breeding (micro evolution) however I do not accept that homo sapiens evolved from apes (it contradicts the Biblical teaching on creation).

I understand how some people find my kind of perspective difficult to understand. What I do find amazing though is how those who hold religious beliefs are fobbed off as ‘nutters’ by people who cannot understand that people like me can intellectually handle both a strong respect for science and religious belief…..and they call us narrow minded! I don’t mind being insulted, it’s water off a duck’s back but I do find it quite amusing – people always lash out against things they fear, or don’t understand.

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89

shaira

brothers, it is with heartache that the work under Christ’s orders is not welcome to all people but we already know that. we rejoice that the good news of the kingdom is being declared all over the world, to every door, to every person, even in the web. look at the responses, people want you to stop. that’s good news!

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91

Paul Le Page

Let me give some brief thoughts on these questions:

Please explain the Dinosaurs??

A species of reptiles that died out a long time ago. Various theories / beliefs exist on how/when this was. Although I cannot give a definitive answer as I wasn’t there, as a Christian I would suggest the most plausible explanation is they died out in the great flood.

Who was Darwin, and how did one man get it soooo wrong??

A scientist who wrote the Origin of Species. He correctly observed micro-evolutionary processes before concluding that every species on earth evolved from a single source. I believe he got it wrong because he didn’t take the existence of God into account.

How was the universe formed??

God created it.

What are your views on scientology??

A group of people who follow the teachings of L Ron Hubbard.

Why do bad things happen to good people??

Who is a good person? By what yardstick do you define good? In some cultures honour killings are considered good, but we would say they are bad.

What is cancer??

A class of diseases.

Please explain your views on homosexuality??

I wrote to the Press explaining my views a couple of months back, as well as making numerous comments on articles. If you want to read my thoughts be my guest, I believe my letter/posts are archived on this website.

Oh, and finally, debates between Christians and atheists tend to become circular. At the end of the day there is a simple, fundamental and irreconcilable difference. Christians have faith; atheists do not. End of. :-)

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93

Martino

You’re probably right Phil, but to return to Dave’s earlier theme, there is far more plausibility for we faithless in the concept of a ‘god’ that is not part and parcel of any (man made) religion than the gods that spring from any or all religious models.
The idea that the creative force (if there is one) behind life here on earth and the development of the universe in general sent his ‘son’ here to die for us about 2,000 years ago is as implausible and ridiculous to me as the existence of Zeus or Thor or Odin.
Far more plausible to me is the notion that religions in general are a manifestation of the ‘spiritual’ longing of mankind, whether a futile longing for meaning in a stark and materialistic and ultimately meaningless universe or a reaching out for something out there, possibly inside all of us as well, that really is divine.
If you are drawn towards the latter explanation Dave, as is evident from your quote “maybe with these (scientific) breakthroughs we are actually getting closer to god” you may be interested in exploring the work of Teilhard de Chardin and his idea of the ‘Omega Point’.
Just a thought.

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95

Phil

Paul

I have something missing?

If you mean that I don’t have an absurd belief in some kind of higher being then you’re absolutely right. Or an emotional void that can only be filled by “faith” then right again.

I am more than happy and fulfilled with my relationships with actual living people, I don’t need to believe in the teapot orbiting the moon in order to exist.

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97

Martino

Oh, you’ve opened up a whole new can of worms there Melc…. do you worship dark chocolate or milk chocolate or both? I think you really should spill the cocoa beans…

Seriously, thanks for putting it in perspective for us!

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99

Dave Haslam

Paul

Thanks for clarifying your points, I find your viewpoint refreshing, however as someone who was hit with a chair leg in RE for mentioning the Dinosaurs I sincerly hope that more and more devout followers follow your lead than the more old fashioned views.

As for your last point about people lashing out at things they dont understand, you can line up the amount of scientists that were killed or exiled by christians over things they didnt understand.

Odd that eh!! Just shows there is wrong on both sides of the faith divide.

Martino

I personally think we are about 35 years from the technological singularity, which is roughly when we’ll find out about the true nature of the universe and ourselves so hopefully we’ll both be around to find out!

I’ll check out Teilhard de Chardin, in return, check out some of Ray Kurzweil’s material, its very assumptional, but based on sound evidence and written in a very enjoyable manner.

Sydney

Try reading what some of your fellow followers wrote about catholics above that was what I was referring to, apologies if I’m pigeonholing your views along with others.

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101

Arnald

My favourite quote so far, from Paul Le P

“Please explain the Dinosaurs??

A species of reptiles that died out a long time ago. Various theories / beliefs exist on how/when this was. Although I cannot give a definitive answer as I wasn’t there, as a Christian I would suggest the most plausible explanation is they died out in the great flood.”

This would be the great flood that occurred 10 or 12 thousand years ago, is it (and so pre the Tribes of Israel timeline)? Does that mean that in antediluvian times, when Noah’s descendents were all being sinful, that they co-existed with Dinosaurs?

Or do you know of another scripture that points to a great flood a few hundred million years ago?

Maybe carbon-dating and the process of fossilisation is some trick devised by Satan?

This thinking has nothing to do with spiritual faith, along with creationism.

Believing in a spiritual Godhead does not mean believing in an adherence to blatant falsehoods.

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103

Martino

Got to clarify something here for Paul, etc

In my youth I had a definite ‘spiritual longing’ and in my middle age I still do in some way, I guess, but I have stopped trying to rationalise it now.

What I can say with confidence is that I have never, ever even come close to developing any sort of religious faith. To do so would be akin to an act of self-lobotomy on my part – a self-imposed suspension of all my inquiring and intuitive mental processes.

Don’t you have even a little shred of doubt, Paul, over your adherence to a faith which (I must agree with Phil on this) appears as a crackpot theory or story? You are an intelligent chap and I’m just intrigued as to how the faith mind works. I think Dawkins et al may well be onto the answer with their memetics theory but you will doubtless disagree.

For Dave, I will check out Kurzweil’s material, I am totally unfamiliar with him and his theories.

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105

melc

oooooohhhh… it’s got to be dairy milk

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107

Paul Le Page

Arnald, you could try reading my original comments accurately. You say “you believe the dinosaurs were wiped out in the great flood” when what I actually said was “Although I cannot give a definitive answer as I wasn’t there, as a Christian I would suggest the most plausible explanation is they died out in the great flood.”

Hardly a statement of dogmatic belief eh? It’s a theory. What I do believe is that God created the universe, and that there was a flood as depicted in the Bible. What happened to the dinosaurs is not mentioned and I’m therefore happy to entertain any theory that doesn’t contradict those things (e.g. disease, an asteroid impact or something else.) It’s hardly a make or break thing to me.

As for climate change, I think you’ll find that the vast majority of Christians accept the reality that climate change exists in some shape or form. As for the causes, well since scientists or the general public can’t agree on that, it’s hardly a stick to beat the religious with, is it?

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109

Phil

Paul

If God created the world in six days surely he could lend a hand to combat climate change.

Or is he still on his day off?

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111

Arnald

Paul Le P
The observable radioactive half-life of carbon-14 gives humans a fair approximation on how old things are.

I can tell you categorically, based on empirical and observable scientific methodology that dinosaurs had nothing to do with the great flood of biblical times. Which therefore means that “as a Christian” the “suggestion of plauibility” is entirely false.

As for other stuff, well, the more we learn, the more we can prove. Believing in a set doctrine holds us back, as you have pointed out; you think we could discuss dinosaurs forever. No.

I believe in God, as it goes, but as a goal of ultimate spiritual enlightenment, not as a basis for a theory of the existence of the world around us.

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113

Paul Le Page

@Arnald

“This example is exactly why many people find it hard to come to terms with statements that begin with “as a Christian”, I’m not picking on you, but the “suggestion of plausibility” as used by religion diverts some from wanting to understand the world we live in.”

I know many Christians (myself included) who want to understand the universe we live in. Some Christians for example are research scientists, so arguably their desire for such knowledge is greater than yours; proving without doubt that a belief in God and the teachings of the Bible by no means nullify the desire for knowledge.

Perhaps the people you speak of aren’t interested in such things? I know many people who have no religious belief whatsoever who simply don’t care ‘where they came from’ – they’re just happy to get on with their lives without understanding. Personally I don’t understand that mentality, but I’m sure they don’t understand mine either!

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115

Paul

Paul Le Page
You sit on the fence so much I am surprised your backside is not sore already. You claim to be an all singing & dancing devout Christian. Maybe you speak in tongues as well?

Yet no so long back you were in full support of homosexuality. Regardless of the fact that it is one of the ten commandments. Hypocrite springs to mind.

The bottom line here is you are an optimist who will randomly & strategically bend the rules to suit your beliefs, desires & needs.

Here is a question for you. If god is so great & almighty, why does one need to believe & worship in order to be saved?

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117

Paul Le Page

@Paul – instead of worrying about the state of my backside, perhaps you should get your facts in order before making such ignorant comments!

Glaring error number one: homosexuality is not one of the ten commandments.

Glaring error number two: I was never “in full support of homosexuality” – I supported the equalisation of the age of consent on the grounds that I did not believe laws should legislate on the grounds of religious belief.
I made my views on homosexual behaviour very clear on more than one occasion, so much so that the gay people I met during the debate were under no illusion how I felt, even though they (not surprisingly didn’t agree).
If you take the time to read all my posts on the subject (they’re still available on here) you’ll see that clearly. Or alternatively, read my letter to the Press on the subject to save you some time, it’s not too hard to find in the archives, even for someone like yourself who clearly doesn’t bother taking the time to do his research and engage his brain before his typing fingers.

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119

Paul Le Page

@Vic – I’ll take your first paragraph as a compliment, sir.

Regarding your question about the devil/Lucifer, a lot of the stories surrounding the devil are apocryphal and not part of the canon of Scripture – unless your a Roman Catholic I believe (which I’m not).

The story about the devil being a rebellious angel who was biffed out of heaven I believe comes from the Book of Enoch. Even the name “Lucifer” is a derivative of the Latin Vulgate translation of the term “son of the dawn” in Isaiah 14, not the original Hebrew text – and whether that text refers to the devil or not is a matter of debate – it certainly doesn’t explicitly say so.

In fact the Bible doesn’t given any explicit indication about the origins of Satan. For that reason I won’t speculate on where he came from, instead I’ll just stick to what it does say about where he’s going! :-)

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121

Arnald

Paul Le P
Some mysticism would point to the Lucifer allegory as the base-language-driven description of the rebellion of the human free-will concept from the construct of blind natural processes, the light still shines but needs to struggle to re-attain those multiple layers of existential harmonies that make up the fabric of creation. The relearning of what was lost from the time before the creation of the universe. The Absolute Potential and the Great Unifying Theory.

Are we all sinners? Twist the words around enough and all spirituality meets.

But dinosaurs did not die out in the great flood as described by the bible!

Enough of the deep, though, you said this
“….but the FACT remains that as this was not observed, it cannot be declared 100% conclusive…” about theoretical scientific opinion.

Can you remind the readers when you believe the the Gospels were supposed to have been written? And then also remind us when the first compilation of these writings were first decided upon, the politicisation of the editing process and maybe the discarding of countless other conflicting writings?

Were the acts of the Christ actually observed as per whatever branch of Bible interpretation you feel closest to?

As for evolution theory; the transference of RNA mutations to the DNA that creates the structures of cells is undeniable truth. It is NOT a leap of faith when observations in short lifespan creatures physically adapt to changing environment. We are mutated primates.

That does not mean we cannot be religious, but it does mean that we should not shroud the world and it’s less educated people with ‘suggested most plausible’ explanations based on non-observed 2000 year old opinions about the source of our lives.

God may have created the ‘universe’, God may well have designed a blueprint to which the billions of years of astrophysical, chemical and biological systems arrived at the start of the Earth’s life. But it is not an explanation to rest our laurels on. We’d still be pre-Renaissance otherwise.

Roll on the next Enlightenment. It’s about bloomin time.

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123

Paul Le Page

Hi Vic – this little website gives a bit more info on the whole ‘origins of Satan’ bit – I think the first sentence is particularly pertinent:

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/article_demons.html

Your comment also show, I think, that somewhere along the line you’ve read/heard about the idea of a “pre-Adamite” race before the Genesis account; again this idea is without support anywhere in the Bible.

Of course there are other ‘traditions’ that aren’t in the Bible. I’ve got no intention to upset my Catholic friends, but many of these come from Catholic tradition, such as:

- teachings about Mary, such as: her perpetual virginity (the Bible actually says Jesus had brothers and sisters); The immaculate conception (that Mary was born without sin); the assumption of Mary (that she was taken bodily into heaven); the idea that Mary never sinned etc. etc.

- Purgatory

- Praying to Mary and the saints.

I appreciate, my friend, that this ‘revelation’ that some of the traditions you’ve heard actually have no basis in the Bible is not likely to convince you.

I would say though, that it’s always worth checking out the source of some of the stories/preconceptions about Christianity before making judgments on them. You may find that it’s not (quite!) as outlandish as you think!

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125

Paul Le Page

@Arnald – since I’ve spent most of the time making my poor little brain ache by answering questions, it’s my turn to ask one. Would I be correct in saying that you generally hold a deist viewpoint?

Although you are evidently no fan of Christianity (or any other ‘organised’ belief system) you do seem to acknowledge (or at least not dismiss the idea of) the existence of a supernatural plane, even a sentient creator?

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127

Vic Gamble

Paul, This was supposed to be a Jehovas Witness thread and Karen, and all the other J.W’s, seem to have abandoned ship. I now need to wear sunglasses to mitigate the red glow from your prolific little red men (beefeaters protecting the godly tower, sort of thing?)Much as I enjoy the cut and thrust of your always interesting responses to the detractors around you, I think I must head back off into the Provence sunset and leave matters to rest. Keep up Your good fight and I’ll keep up mine….

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129

Scarlett

Sydney. You summed it up perfectly. You’re can’t explain your church’s stance on child abuse as you have no experience of it…

if you had, you may feel very differently.

The fact remains, it happens, and your church acting as judge and jury often stands in the way of justice for the utterly helpless victims.

A quick scan of the media will tell you all about these things you’ve never experienced, and quite frankly, Sydney, how any sentient human being can condone your organisation’s stance on such a vile and life destroying issue, done in the name of religion, is utterly beyond me.

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131

Arnald

Paul Le P
I would enjoy a conversation to answer your questions, definitely, it’s all part of my wider opinion. However, not in a public forum.

Maybe if you ask the moderator for my permission to give you my email…?

thanks

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133

Tom

I daresay this argument/discussion about Christianity is like the book without ending.

The Romans altered it a bit. or perhaps accelerated the Idea of the Christian faith, when they allowed the Crucifixion of our Lord.

There are those who are for, and those who are against- so what’s the problem; as a Christian I believe we all are allowed a choice- believe or dis-believe. so why the big argument?

The Christian faith allows us that choice, we are not cajoled into the believing. we are not ordered to be a Catholic. or a protestant. we choose for ourselves (I know that many follow their parents choice)
But adults should act like adults- and the answer is simple.-

You believe- or you don’t-

In ending I will say this; I’m glad I am a believer; had I not been- I wonder at times over many happenings in my life-
Yet in a way I was a coward: I passed my troubles to our Lord. But then again It was my faith that made it so.

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