‘Don’t worry’ that a Lib Dem is overseeing Dependencies
Tuesday 25th May 2010, 2:29PM BST.
GUERNSEY should not be concerned that a Liberal Democrat has been given responsibility for overseeing the UK’s relationship with the Crown Dependencies, the head of the island’s business community has said.
Chamber of Commerce president Julian Winser responded after Lord McNally (pictured) was appointed as the new Minister of State for Justice.
Justice Secretary Ken Clarke leads the Ministry of Justice on behalf of the new coalition Government but Lord McNally will take on the day-to-day responsibility for constitutional affairs with Guernsey.
The Liberal Democrats have in the past been strong critics of financial centres such as Guernsey but Mr Winser said the island must not assume that would filter through as a result of Lord McNally’s appointment.
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Worried, Ha!!
Maybe it’s about time England did step in and do something about us.
There is something seriously wrong when an Englishman worth £452 millon moves to our island to avoid paying hefty tax.
We are fast becomming an island that local people cannot afford to live on – obviously this is something Lindon Trott and his fellow baffoons in the states desire.
Must be nice for these millionaires to escape to our island to avoid English tax whilst us locals and indeed mid level non local earners struggle to get by and certainly desperately struggle to afford homes.
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Local
I’m not sure that the probable 3 or 4 million pound shack the gentleman purchased affects the price of your house but it certainly doesn’t affect mine
Other than Arnald I can’t think of anyone who would baulk at using a legal way to not pay 50% tax
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Local – if he feels able to leave England, why should he still be liable for UK tax? If you moved to Australia I bet you would not expect the States to still send you a tax return, would you?
As Ray said, the price of his open market house has zero impact on the price of local market houses.
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Ray
Absolutely right. “Local!” clearly hasn’t understood that local market prices are not affected by open market transactions.
The new resident will no doubt be contributing substantially to the local exchequer in taxes on his spending, as well as on his personal income taxes, and consuming a far smaller sum on social services. The net benefit to the island will be very considerable. More of the same please!
Enhanced anti-avoidance legislation in the UK means that wealthy individuals have to physically leave the UK in order to escape the UK tax net, rather than stay there and benefit from an offshore structure, which is becoming harder and harder to achieve. That’s his choice (it doesn’t suit everyone) but people who can “vote with their feet” are exercising their free right to do so.
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Lace those boots up Arnald.
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Ray
These guys are an obvious representation of the “we’re all in this together” mantra that is supposed to incentivise the UK into economic prosperity.
Meanwhile, those that create the wealth that he enjoys will be paying rising taxes that will erode their way of life still further.
Nothing like leading from the front eh, Ray?
“it’s time to roll up our sleeves” we were told, “and head for the beach!”
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The sooner we link with the other CIs and achieve total independence from the crime ridden hell hole of the UK/EU the better.
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David
Fantasy.
It’s Social Sciences 101, I’m afraid.
Under your premise, the huge influx of billionaires into London should have raised the standards of living for everyone there.
Um….
Failed doctrine. What are they going to consume here that they can’t get anywhere else for cheaper? Will they eat more food in the restaurants?
It’s utter twaddle.
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Andy
If you want a real crime ridden hell-hole try St Peter Port on a Saturday night or Cobo at a weekend. Try riding the buses to St Sampson of an evening. Make sure you grit your teeth as the local drunk/druggie fingers you up on the bus and you daren’t say ‘boo’ in case he gets violent.
Do any of you ever sober up for long enough from whatever it is you are on to manage coherent and intelligent thought?
For the record [yet again! what does it take to make this island listen?] Guernsey is NOT part of the UK!!!!!! There obviously is a God! The only claim you have on the UK is for defence and bothering OUR Queen to come and see you every now and again. Please do claim independence as soon as possible. Your views on the UK are offensive and incorrect.
Interesting footnote is that the crime ridden hell-holes of the UK and the EU do actually care enough about people to have Habeas Corpus. Basically this means that if you are arrested you must be brought before a magistrate within twenty four hours and either charged or set free. Extra time for questioning maybe requested but I believe the maximum time limit that can be granted is three days.
The police on Guernsey can arrest and hold you without charge for days, weeks, months, [and in one case] a year. Guernsey has resisted the introduction of Habeas Corpus because the island has a pathological hatred of what it sees as UK government interference. Even the Isle of Man has adopted Habeas Corpus; along with the rest of Europe, plus America, Australia and New Zealand for starters.
And you have the effrontery to call the UK/EU a crime ridden hell hole!
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Arnald
Let’s guess that the gentleman purchased a four million Open Market property and let’s guess
( hope ? )that he didn’t use the share transfer dodge.
The property purchase tax alone would have put £120,000 into the Guernsey purse.I don’t know about you but that equates to a hell of a lot of years worth of my Guernsey income tax.
Perhaps the gentleman will return to the UK now that the profligate crooks who were robbing him blind to pay for their government non-jobs voting fodder policy have at last been kicked out ( hopefully forever )
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coyote
I think you may be confusing 1939-45 with 2010
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Arnald – Mr Lansdown created the wealth that he enjoys by taking risks and creating a good company that offers a service people seem enthusiastic to take up.
No doubt you shiver at the word ‘profit’ but surely if you work you ‘profit’ from your labours and if you don’t work you ‘profit’ from others.
Keep the red flag flying brother.
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We should encourage as many high quality, high nett worth people from the mainland to join us in Guernsey as we can. Perhaps we could put together an exchange plan … their wealth creators in exchange for our left wing riffraff ( they would be much more at home there)! … just a thought..
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Theo
Your comment proves the point that campaigners against this absurdity that tax competition is healthy is beneficial: you wish another country to fail just so they can spout out their selfish ideology that helps no-one but the few. You wish these multimillionaires that have channeled money from the real economy, through the toil of labour, the use of publically funded essential social infrastructure, through to consumer driven wealth and then the investment of that wealth, to care nothing for the whole chain, the whole social construct that gave them their advantages; their children’s advantages, and then sell you the idea that they are in someway above criticism for their utter lack of humanity.
Is this really an island based on decency and founded on Christianity?
Or is it based on the priciples that sucking the life out of our neighbours is a noble and just existence?
I’m not going to criticise the individual, if that’s what he chooses, but let’s get this straight. Front page news advertising Guernsey’s adoration of the demise of the UK (as defined by Tory “we’re all in this together”, “Private enterprise will lift us out of recession” etc) vindicates those that wish to tarnish Guernsey with the idea that we are socially dysfunctional.
Oh, and for those thinking that ‘trickle down’ works…..how come the major western economies that relied on that abhorrent ideology have the greatest problems, regardless of the misleading GDP numbers.
This is the problem when we are surrounded by accountants. 2+2=5
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Arnald – you’ve told us about everybody elses, tell us about you? Where does your income derive from? What funds do you contribute towards the publicly funded essential services etc…?
I think you’ll find that Hargreaves Lansdown have recently moved to accommodate an expansion in staff numbers – people kinda like having jobs, don’t they?
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Arnald.
Firstly,I do not wish to see the UK fail. However, any country will fail if it persecutes its wealth creators.
The fact that it has, by association with the EU, gone down the road of international socialism, I find most depressing.
My heart goes out to all the people on the mainland who find their heritage and national identity being eroded and infiltrated by numerous and often hostile societies and religions, in the name of multiculturism.
A person with private wealth does not ‘ suck the life out of his neighbours’. Without the incentive of capital gain to those amongst us who have the energy and drive to create wealth, any society ( as history has shown ) will ultimatly become impoverished and flounder.
I don’t blame anyone who has created wealth through their own efforts and sacrifice who tries to avoid the high tax infrastruture imposed on them by left wing governments such as the last UK labour goverment.
It must always be remembered that personal wealth is always invested in infrastruture and business, providing employment and spreading wealth to others,and there is a limit to what one indivdual can personally consume. What ever their life style it will always involve the paid labour of others to sustain it.
Thankfully, our Island has not as yet, been undermined by such sinister forces and influences,and our wealth creators in Guernsey have not been demonised and targeted,
( although the Zulus are on the hill for all to see ). As a simple Islander that loves and appreciates his Island, I will do what ever I can to resist the fate being imposed on our poor English neighbours across the water.
Financial refugees are always welcome here as far as I’m concerned.
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My, my, Arnald, that is a very judgemental post about someone that you have (presumably) never met and (presumably) know very little about.
He appears to have run a very successful firm in the UK, employing a number of people and, quite probably, facilitating investment in a number of other businesses that also provide real livelihoods to many people in the “real economy” that you champion. Sure, he has made money in the process, but there is nothing to indicate that he did this by exploiting others. It is possible for people with drive, vision and talent to run businesses that provide jobs for the employed and profits for the stakeholders.
Having no doubt paid a huge amount of taxes himself during this time (and being partly responsible for the tax generated from the business(es) he has run and the people to whom he has provided employment) he has decided to ensure that he spends less than 90 days a year in the UK so as to not be UK resident. If he is no longer using UK resources (despite still running UK businesses that will continue to pay UK tax), why should be pay UK tax on his personal income?
You say that his kind care nothing about the “chain”, that they have an “utter lack of humanity”, but you have no basis to reach this conclusion. Certainly, his involvement in Bristol Rovers FC indicates that he is not purely driven by money – you have to have a pretty big community spirit to get involved with minor club football.
Your one-eyed view of the world, and your eagerness to pass damning judgement on people you know nothing about, is really rather tedious, especially as you fail to acknowledge that there are several other ways to view the same set of facts.
But I do agree with you that gloating about the migration of wealthy individuals does the island no favours. However, in reality I expect that there will be very few in total, as they are reliant upon open market housing becoming available.
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TL
I wasn’t aware I was talking about any individual in particular. In fact I said I wasn’t criticising him. I agree, if he has no earnings in the UK then he should pay no tax there (barring offshore registration of UK operations). I was pointing out that the reasoning behind not wanting to pay tax, i.e. that they don’t like the way tax money is spent, implies that they USED to like the way tax money was spent, because they were successful. Ergo, the idea that wealth generators that escape, as is their choice, must logically lessen the chances of those that wish to emulate the successful by reducing the Exchequer, and so the availability of choice for the public.
This guy and his love of his football club notwithstanding, can we use the same ‘heart in the community’ logic for those hedge funds and trusts in Cayman, Jersey and the rest, who own an increasing number of football clubs in the UK.
It’s not a one-eyed view. It’s a concern for the future.
I still maintain, however, that such public shows of “tax motivated relocation” is not motivated by personal loss of income, as I doubt very much that they would organise their affairs without avoidance. So if they avoid wherever they come from, then who says they won’t use similar tricks here?
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For a guy who came over here because of the quietness and privacy he isn’t half clocking up the column inches!
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Well for my part let them all come; and the space they leave in the UK can be used by our men whom now should return home.
After all they are doing their bit for the UK, as are those who are fixing the rate of taxes, because of the blundering of previous Government.
So if all don’t pull their weight then the ship will sink.
So If the Cameron lot allow all this dodging their taxes—- THEN
Lose all hope all ye who enter our Island.
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You Know TL. I am perhaps old fashioned, however in reply to yours. of May 25 2010 5.38pm.
Do you not think that a little lack of morality is missing in the case mentioned,
He found it lucrative enough to make his millions in England; but when it come to helping out Oh dear Shudder shudder.
Not me it’s mine all mine and I’m not helping out.
I’ve absolutely no place in my heart for that type of person. Greed is a terrible sickness.
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Not sure which tenet of morality you are specifically referring to. He employs more than 600 people in the UK. He will continue to employ more than 600 people in the UK. His company will continue to pay lots of UK tax. He has paid lots of UK tax in the 30 years since he built his business up from his bedroom.
Surely there comes a point when he can say that he wants to leave a country that no longer meets his requirements? Why is he morally obliged to stay in the UK when he will continue to contribute to its coffers even after he has personally left?
Is he any different from people choosing to move to Australia or the South of France? Why does it make a difference that he is motivated by increasing tax rather than by a love of sunshine, wine and closeted ex-pat communities?
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Well put TL
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He has the money and has that choice.,
Men who fight to give him that choice have themselves no choice.
Oh I know modern army are all volunteers, but the ones who kept England free; so he could have such choices had no choice.
They did it for all.
He thinks for himself.
Even though he still runs the firms in England and employs so many:; I thought we talked about him, not his company.
The law on taxation was made to cover all.
Say what you will, personally against me or not, I detest those who choose the way out as he does, and his likes, for he is not alone.
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Tom
Are you Eric in disguise?
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Ray – it’s not much of a disguise!
Tom/Eric – I’m all for people paying their dues when they are part of a society, but don’t see why anyone should be obliged to stay in one society forever. People move abroad for all sorts of reasons, and not just the rich. Those that have sold up and moved to Spain in search of better weather are cashing in on their higher UK property values to live a cheap life on Costa Whatever. Are they any different from Mr Lansdowne? Should they be obliged to stay in their two up two down in Liverpool?
What about Brazilian footballers, who have learned their skills barefoot on the backstreets of Rio, but then rush off to make millions in Europe while the domestic leagues suffer? It is a problem for Brazilian football, but does that mean that the individuals concerned are doing anything wrong? anything that we would not do in their shoes? I don’t think so. They are free to live their lives, as are we all.
The number of employees is relevant because it is not accurate to paint Mr Lansdowne as someone who has taken from the UK and then run away avoiding his “responsibilities” leaving others to foot the bill. He is still contributing more to the UK than many of us could ever dream of doing.
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TL
He has clearly stated that he does not want to contribute into the uk personally to rehabilitate the mess caused with a devastation that will leave generations ruined because of the actions of the industry he is involved with.
Regardless of the ‘amount’, it is insubstantial compared to the hardship endured by the lowest 20%, whilst in the top 0.01% he can make statents and actions that undermine democracy.
Of course he is entitled to live where he likes, but don’t fool people into thinking that there are no instruments to strip out as much ‘tax liability’ from his paper operations.
You lot live in a fantasy.
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TL
“They are free to live their lives, as are we all”.
I think there are many peoples around the world would dissagree with you there. Much of it at the hands of we know who.
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Ray Yes I’m Tom cat, and you sound like the mouse,
what matters who I am, you and others have asked that ? so many times, that you get boring after a while.
TL.
I wonder if the day will ever come when you, when answering a question with a question (bad fault of yours) you will just give plain answers instead of the sermons you try to teach us ignorant lot-
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bcb – point taken, I mean that we all “ought to be free to live our lives”
Tom – I was not answering a question with a question, I was just raising hypothetical questions to discuss your earlier post and to see if your position held true. If you cannot enter into discussion and take debate as sermonising then there is very little that I can do about that.
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Tom / Eric
No problem re changing your name old chum
I just wondered if there were two people in the world who still write in the style of Chaucer
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Tl.
Yes discussion is great- yet somehow your result notes (lengthy at times) always seem to assume that you are always right, and others are menial to your assumed great knowledge- yes I do think you learned- but do you have be so b— tiresome.
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Ray_
let’s start on the wrong foot, thereby no use for excuses later_ so to begin-’I'm not your ‘old chum’
That said, many a good tale came from him and were always proven to be a slice of’life.
May I add I do not dream up my replies, but mostly having lived at different stages of life, in rough waters and calm.
As for changing my name wrong! oh yes for it is you who change it for me.
If a man is Christened IE; Albert, he has every right to be called Bert; so why do you try to be smart- foolish more like it.
So be satisfied with your lot and enjoy life, to delve into unknown waters can be tricky.
now have a nice week-end and enjoy life- why try to sour it?
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TL
haha
“If you cannot enter into discussion and take debate as sermonising then there is very little that I can do about that.”
You don’t have a leg to stand on concerning the arguments I have constantly put forward, backed by increasing evidence from bodies such as the IMF and OECD if you hold that position.
Let alone all the others that ridicule your assertions that the financeindustry can only be a positive force.
We are fortunate that some people have listen to the ‘lunatics’ that have advocated transparency and co-operation. A few years ago when I was arguing the case I wasbeing labelled all manner of names. It seems as though the language is common.
As for the examples you offer. Anyone that can afford to avoid paying their tax will do. It’s greed. It’s how we’ve managed to build a few buildings and how a few of us can say we are better than others.
It’s how some commentators have been able to say they don’t care about the wider picture.
I’m glad Guernsey is ahead of the ‘game’, but the fact that it’s a ‘game’ is nothing to be proud of. How many of our institutions, for instance, have direct business links with Mauritius, or BVI, or Cayman?
Why?
I can’t possibly imagine…
As the erstwhile Eric says – sermonising from you overpaid paper shufflers means nothing compared to the majority of humanity’s suffering – much of it triggered by a compulsion to hoard with advice from the likes from the global legal corps like the one’s we celebrate day-on-day in the GEP.
Let’s just be realistic and admit it.
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Are you on mephedrome Tom?
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Tom – I certainly don’t intend to come across as you describe and wonder whether you are being a little sensitive (as you are with your acidic response to Ray). For instance, in my post that you objected to I raised some questions and then said “I don’t think so” – a clear statement of my opinion, not an assumption that this is the only way to view things.
Anyway, the weather looks good for the weekend, so have a good one.
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Arnald – I have never said that the finance industry can only be a positive force and the fact that you think that I have just goes to show how little attempt you have made to listen to and understand the comments I make. Because I challenge some of your points you assume that I must believe other things. But that is the basis of most of your arguments – false assumptions and a lack of understanding.
In fact, the last time we got down to specifics, you went mysteriously quiet after I pointed out that the accusations of secrecy do not add
up. Maybe your own legs aren’t as solid as you think they are either.
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Arnald
What would you rather. Pay ever increasing taxes to those that demand because they are in a position to do so. Whilst squandering what you have built up through long hours, risk taking & hard work.
Living the life, off your labours, whilst your wealth decreases proportionally year on year.
Or be shrewd, seeking the best deal available, so you can enjoy your latter years comfortably. Safe in the knowledge your children will benefit when your time is up?
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TL
no assumptions and no lack of understanding.
i’m just fed up with the hostility i come across daily when pointing out the futility of defending a system that is inherently designed to hide the flows of money from the necessary authorities.
you just have the name the jurisdictions of global operations such as the award winning legal corps or any of the banks and you can already see the web of transactions that can be used to obfuscate.
do your own investigation, mr clean, and see for yourself.
At least Guernsey is not as bad as some of the others. It would be hard to be worse.
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Martino: nothing so mild as Mephedrone; always your replies is enough to put any one AWAY.
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Arnald – “inherently designed to hide the flow of money” – your assumption that this is how offshore centres work proves my point!
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No, TL.
Otherwise they would be transparent in order for the markets to work efficiently. Which they have proven not to.
Weasel words do not prove me wrong. The actualities are stark. Instead of believing the marketing material, why don’t you see it from a different angle?
That’s why people call you guys ‘complacent’ and ‘patronising’.
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Sorry TL,been away being psychotic…
another country you have to prove ‘wrong’….quite an influential one perhaps
http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/Imprensa/Notas/2002/agosto/09082002a.htm
taken from that ‘always wrong’ Richard Murphy’s blog
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2010/06/09/brazil-names-tax-havens-74-of-them
to be named on any of them and still say we are whiter than white is shameful.
Where are the leaders coming out saying we will eliminate such business. Or will our business disappear if we make such statements? If so, does that not make any of my argument correct?
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Arnald – nice to see you adopt you favourite technique of posting a response that bears no relation to the post to which you are replying.
As for your latest link, what were their criteria for this list? I see from Richard Murphy’s blog that he mentions that the Channel Islands qualify due to lack of public records of corporate ownership. You will recall that I’ve mentioned before that this is a red-herring because jurisdictions that do have such public records invariably allow nominee holdings and do nothing about beneficial ownership (the UK for example). At least we here require the companies and local administrators to know the beneficial owners. I would argue that this provides more practical information to the authorities than a public list of post boxes.
I am amused by your comment on the blog that you cannot be bothered to reply to my substantive criticism of the elements of supposed secrecy. Is it that you cannot be bothered, or that you have no answer, or that you actually do not really know what you are talking about and so cannot take the discussion any further than recycling someone else’s comment?
As for your last paragraph, what business are you talking about?
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