Man sought for dog attack on sea birds
Friday 18th June 2010, 2:30PM BST.
La Societe Guernesiaise conservation officer Jamie Hooper rings a gull chick. (0986006)
Police are investigating reports that a man set his three dogs on gull chicks and then stoned the birds.
A 57-year-old holidaymaker took photographs of the alleged incident, the dogs and the man’s car, and has handed them to police and La Societe Guernesiaise.
Environment minister Peter Sirett yesterday condemned the ‘reprehensible and cruel act’ which resulted in some chicks falling from Pleinmont cliffs and others being savaged by the dogs.
The birdwatcher who caught the incident on camera asked not to be named but said he visited the island four times a year and never expected to witness such things.
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This person if caught should have the dogs taken away as he is obviously not fit to have them.
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Well done to the holidaymaker now we need the press to publish the photos so we can make sure this sick person is caught.
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Agreed, well done and thank you to the holiday maker.
I hope the offender is caught, named and shamed and is banned from having dogs too.
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Maybe the birds will remember him and attack him like in The Birds!
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cannot believe people are this twisted, someone point him in the direction of his dr, he obviously needs some decency pills, shame on you whoever you are, i hope you are showed more compassion than you have shown to those poor innocent creatures!
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If he ends up with legal defence, if Guernsey has such a legal defence, does that mean this guy would have been able to control his mutts to stop the same to a baby human in the general vicinity? This is worse than those kids who get done for urinating in a bush. Much wose, if the pictures prove an individual throwing stones at birds.
We name and shame parking ticket offenders in the GEP. We need a front page when the evidence comes up. “Cat stuck up tree” will probably beat it though.
I can’t blame the dogs cos that’s is as dogs do,but if there was dog-related potential nastiness, followed by human stoning, then i demand a full page front page damning of this person. Do our animal welfare laws go that far.
Pope/Bear
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Ooh nooo! Think of the seagulls!
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We are probably dealing with a sociopath here, therefore guilt or remorse is out of the question for this man. He won’t understand what all the fuss is about. The only thing that will make an impression on him is punishment and embarrassment.
Lets hope for the sake of other animals he will come across in the future, that they manage to find him and impose an appropriate punishment which includes photographic exposure in the media.
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It shouldn’t take the Police too long to find the person who owns a blue van and three dogs and well done to the visitor who gave such a good description, but how much easier it would have been if the witness had photographed the vehicle registration number or at least memorised the first three digits
That was my immediate reaction to the St Saviours flasher story a couple of weeks ago.The brave girl who was accosted on at least three occasions gave an excellent description of the man and the vehicle …. all except the vital number plate
Apparently he is now being taken through the Courts but please folks help the Police with the best piece of evidence.. THE REG NUMBER
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It’s possible that the guy took his dogs for a run on the cliffs in ignorance of the nesting birds. The dogs being dogs may then have got excitedly out of control attacking the nesting chicks. The chicks parents would then have made a hell of a racket attacking the dogs and the dogs owner then defended his dogs by throwing stones at the birds. An unfortunate incident reported by a bird watcher, maybe the report would have been different had it been witnessed by a dog owner. We should refrain from jumping to conclusions.
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Yes, thats not good, but thats not right that the dog walker should be taken to prison. Maybe he is taking the dogs out for a walk for an hour a day, the dogs maybe could be young and not trained to listen the owner. It is not maybe his dogs. I have been walking on the beach and in Pleinmont and i have seen lots of dogs runing up and down on the cliffs and who knows, maybe the gulls chick where dead allready. They should speak with dog owners, i think! who knows?!!
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It seems pretty cut and dried to me; the police are in possession of the pictures – we know the car which was used (allegedly as the Press will no doubt say) so lets get this b*****d under lock and key asap.
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According to ceefax news at the weekend the dogs were 2 labradors and a border collie. So if you know who it might be let the police know.
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There could be another side to this story in that the owner lost control of his dogs and they ran amok amongst the nesting birds; not implausible.
Let the investigation run its course.
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Won’t hold my breath waiting for the local police to solve this one.
Despite enormous amounts of evidence and a witness, it’ll probably either get put in the already over filled ‘couldn’t-find-one’s-*ss-with-both-hands-on-it’ unsolved file, or if caught (by some miracle), this piece of garbage will just get smack on the wrist and a lollypop, as he had a ‘difficult childhood’…
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I’m sorry to say that my experiences of the local police have not been good. Even if the witness had provided a reg number the police would, if they could be bothered to look into things, just let the perpatrator off with a “don’t be so naughty next time”……
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Well said Neil Inder, isn’t it wonderful how people jump to conclusions. Apart from the tourist, the Police and LSG nobody else has seen the photos. Neither has the dog owner/handler has not been given the opportunity to have his say.
All I can say is thank goodness we have a justice system in this island that allows people the opportunity to defend themselves. If some of the esteemed writers on this forum had their way, we wouldn’t need a court or the police as the accused would be hung, drawn and quartered by a rampaging lynch mob purely on the basis of a GP article!
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In response to those who are saying that this was an unfortunate accident where the dogs found themselves in the nesting area, the witness report says that the dogs were called back when someone turned up in a nearby car park, and then released again when the coast was clear. The offender would appear to have the ability to control the dogs but chose not to.
Also, the witness describes several chicks running over the cliff edge – clearly not dead before the dogs arrived.
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@ Scarlett
The Police actually solve a lot of crime and produce the supporting evidence. The decision to put the case in front of the Magistrate for prosecution is made by the Law Officers and NOT the Police. There are numerous reasons a case can fail to make it to this stage and unless you have a background in law the reasons aren’t always obvious. Whilst there are also times that there is no supporting evidence of a crime(though obviously a crime has taken place i.e. an assault with no witnesses or complaint)and the Police are unable to present a case, this decision to NOT prosecute is also taken by the Law Officers. Why dont you sign up and show them how its all done?
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The owner of the dogs should be put down.
The dogs should be found a loving home.
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You could almost see the number of that blue vehicle in the GP, surely with all the technology around it could be made visible. There cannot be many of those blue vans in Guernsey. I am sure Crimewatch is on the case already.
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SomeBloke. There’s not much crime (thank the lord!) over here to be ‘solved’, really, is there (?!) so when something high profile hits the headlines, I would think they would be tripping over their size 14′s to get in there.
Fact is, they don’t.
There have been some really awful things over the years – we all know what they are – that just disappeared off the radar, with lots of evidence/witnesses etc, and no one ever prosecuted. I personally have experienced their ‘not now, dear, I’m having a cuppa’ attitude, and trust me, when you’re the one in need of them actually doing the job they get paid for, and don’t, it’s incredibly frustrating.
As for signing up, you wouldn’t catch me wearing a uniform for love nor money, but the fact is that those who choose to, choose the job and their duty to the public that comes with it, so if they can’t do it, they should change careers for something less taxing.
Looking forward to months of ‘enquiries’ and asking the members of the general public to ‘come forward’ so that they can do B all about this one as well, before letting it quietly slip out the back door with all the other crimes they fail to solve…puts me in mind of another great detective….
Clouseau: Does your dog bite?
Hotel Clerk: No.
Clouseau: [bowing down to pet the dog] Nice doggie.
[Dog barks and bites Clouseau in the hand]
Clouseau: I thought you said your dog did not bite!
Hotel Clerk: That is not my dog…..
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@Scarlett
‘…There’s not much crime (thank the lord!) over here to be ’solved’, really, is there (?!)..’ Compared to London – no, compared to Sark – yes. Its all relevant and we could spend for ever discussing how much crime is ‘ not much’. I will agree though that any crime is too much.
As well as the usual run of the mill Saturday night crimes, there are are also plenty of family cases, sex crimes, financial frauds, missing persons, social security and housing infractions etc etc which the police have to investigate locally as well as helping the UK and International law enforcement. Whether the investigation is a simple phone call or a months long investigation, all the complaints have to be logged as per the Home Office (and Home Department) rules. The Police are not infallible and things do go awry however they do try give the best service.
Instead of throwing things from the side line and knocking the people who are trying to make your Island a better and safer place to live, why don’t you either join up, as I mentioned earlier, or take your complaint about the Police failing you to their PSD department, or the home department to investigate – 725111. I wont reply to you again as you obviously have made your mind up.
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SomeBloke. Many thanks, I like to have the last word.
your comment about complaining to the Police about the Police was hilarious, so, as your links with the Police are so apparent, I’ll leave you with something equally amusing to read whilst you have your 15th cuppa of the day, hopefully not too spoiled by that darned phone ringing off the hook with ‘leads’ you may or may not get round to following up….
Dreyfus: The beggar was the lookout man for the gang.
Clouseau: That is impossible. How can a blind man be a lookout?
Dreyfus: [Insinuating Clouseau] How can an idiot be a police officer?
Clouseau: Well, all he has to do is enlist…
Dreyfus: Shut up!
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Scarlett you may want to invest in a new soapbox, yours is becoming quite dented.
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Apologies, Lynnie, I missed your point…
which was…..?
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Scarlett
You may have missed Lynnie’s point because she misspelled demented as dented
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Once again, another online forum swerves sharply off course, and crumbles into a slanging match…
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thanks for helping Lynnie with that, Ray, I almost fell off my soapbox (I think it’s called having a strong opinion in the real world) laughing at your wheeze. You really should be on the stage…
I see now I also made another mistake, thinking users of these forums were all grown ups, here for for some well humored, robust debate….as it is, I’ll leave you and Lynnie here to comment on everyone else’s posts and have a love-in.
Carry on…! ;0)
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Aw Scarlett don’t take your ball and go home.
Whilst, I’m sure, the police do have the shortfalls you do seem to have a rather buzzy bee in your bonnet about them. I was mearly trying to lighten the thread by implying “yup, we get it …you don’t like the Gsy police”.
That to one side I think there has been some valid points here for there being two sides to every story. If indeed it is what has been impied then it’s disgraceful and something should be done about it and should be reported accordingly.
However, the reason knife mugging might be taking priority…
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Dogs should be on leads in public places at all times – if you want dogs to run amok own a property with land enough for off leash exercise.
The selfish attitude of dog lovers amazes me : and most are not animal lovers, unless ther are vegans and do not eat pork, veal, eggs etc etc etc
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More fuss being made over this than a mugging near candie.
How may rabbits are killed by cats and dogs every week ?
The guy was probably throwing rocks at birds to scare them away before his dogs got them.
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Donkey
Did you even read the story??
In particular the bit where the owner got his dogs under control and waited until people passed him before continuing with this abhorrent act. If he has such control over his dogs then clearly your comment is incorrect.
As for your other comment, dogs and cats are not humans, this is a story of a human using his animals as a weapon to murder innocent animals.
If you dont hold vicious animal torture and death at the hands of a supposedly educated man, in the same vein as a street robbery in which no-one was hurt and the only thing lost was a phone and some cash, then thats fine, but dont judge everyone else by your own moral compass.
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Andy, So you are saying people who eat meat should not own animals as it is hypocritical? Ridiculous comment.
The issue here is the owner, not the dogs. The man used his dog as a weapon to attack other wildlife, a very disturbing thing to do.
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Ah well, its one less pesky gull to rip open our bin bags and leave rubbish strewn all over the place.
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Ooooops ! just stood on an ant’s nest in the back garden.
Guilty as charged.
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I wonder, are the police going to start prosecuting cat owners who let their animals roam free outside? If I sent a photo to the cops of a cat with a baby rabbit in its mouth, could I expect a prosecution?
How many garden birds, mice, rats or baby rabbits in Guernsey are killed by cats each day? Surely their owners are equally as culpable? Every day cats are being set loose by their owners in the full knowledge that when opportunity knocks they will do what comes naturally to their species, namely kill other animals.
The only difference in this case is that the dog owner was present at the time of attack and allegedly egged his animals on. Still, cat owners are well aware that their animals will hunt and kill other animals if allowed outside, yet they make no effort to stop them.
Personally I don’t see a great deal of difference between a cat killing a rabbit or a blackbird and a dog killing a seagull. The only difference is in people’s interpretations of value and personally I’d rather see a dog decrease the excessive seagull population by a few than watch our garden bird population get decimated by cats.
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Auntie GP:
If you put your bins out after dark they should be safe from gulls. No need to go down the route of unofficial culls or give a licence to a viscious person to destoy wildlife of their own accord then.
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“If you dont hold vicious animal torture and death at the hands of a supposedly educated man, in the same vein as a street robbery in which no-one was hurt and the only thing lost was a phone and some cash, then thats fine, but dont judge everyone else by your own moral compass.”
Just a thought Steve-O….if it was you that was mugged and robbed, would you be saying the same thing? What if your house was burgled?
I agree with your point about a moral compass though but surely it works both ways: Some other examples:
- some people think its perfectly OK to hunt for sport – why should they be judged by your moral compass either?
- some people think its murder to eat meat or wear leather shoes. Do you?
- further to my previous comment, I’m pretty sure there are some (not all) cat owners out there who find amusement in watching their favourite feline ‘playing’ with its victim before the final kill. Should they be prosecuted?
- humans kill living creatures every day – swatting wasps, killing flies, walking down the street treading on ants, when you’re ill even your antibiotics are killing other organisms. When you swat a wasp though, the Jains in India (who wear masks to stop themselves inhaling and killing bugs) would say you are doing evil. Should killing wasps become illegal here too?
I don’t condone animal cruelty for one moment but for goodness sakes – some people seem to think this guy should be executed for what he allegedly did! Well, perhaps I think you should be executed for stepping on a poor innocent wasp. Let’s cut out the holier than thou claptrap for a moment and get some perspective. If the guy is guilty he should get a fine or perhaps do some community service – that would be a proportionate response.
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By the sounds of it this man has his dog’s trained. If they are trained to kill birds then they have a killer instinct bred in to them. Could be a major incident waiting to happen here guys. Would you leave these dogs alone with your child?
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Paul
There is a very obvious difference in this case, most cat owners I know dont send their cats into the world saying “go kill as many animals as you can find tiddles, could you also bring some of them back half dead so we can watch them suffer”.
Whereas in this instance, this twisted individual has done exactly that.
Its true that cats keep the vermin and Rabbit population down but lets not confuse the course of nature with a pre-meditated controllable act.
Plus, we are not actually castigating the animals in this case, we are castigating the man as this is a DELIBERATE act of using his dogs to cause pain and suffering for seemingly nothing more than sick pleasure.
I am also getting from the gist of your post that you are fine with what has been commited here??
Which surprises me as we are all god creatures apparently…. but only when it suits I suppose.
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Paul
I would be much more upset if my chickens were killed, than if I was mugged or my house was burgled, I’m insured, possesions can be re-purchased, my chickens cannot.
Plus some people are bleating on about the mugging like its moss side, do you know the actual facts of the “mugging”?? Probably not, it was not violent, and there was barely a distant threat of violence, the victim even had his sim card returned by the robbers, hardly the stuff of nightmares.
That is why I dont give this as much attention as the bird story. Which was just a sick act of killing innocent life. This is my justification for why in this instance I class this story as worse, if the victim was attacked with no warning, senselessly beaten, and then had his phone and wallet taken, maybe I would be more shocked.
As for the rest of your post.
I dont know any cat owners that take pleasure in the suffering of what their pets bring home, if there are cat owners that do take pleasure in this, then they shouldnt be allowed to have them, obviously that is impossible to police, but if there was photographic evidence and eye witness statements, you would argue the case for them not being worthy pet owners.
Which is exactly the situation we have in this story, no??
My point about the moral compass has been proved by the rest of your post, if I happen to be indignant about hunting for example, I can go on and protest against hunting, however if I dont have any feelings either way about hunting, I wont go to a protest march with a placard “Fox hunting is not as bad as Child abuse” for example.
My bringing up the moral compass was because this is a thread debating animal cruelty, I wasnt judging Donkey’s moral compass. Donkey (and now you) was judging everyone in this thread, which is why I brought it up. You are right with your comments on wasps etc, everyone is different, so dont crtiscice the fact that more people seem to be outraged by this, than the mugging.
As for holier than thou claptrap, please re-read your post, then look in the dictionary under “irony”.
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@The Man
“I am also getting from the gist of your post that you are fine with what has been commited here??”
I think my second posts answers this question but to clarify: no I’m not “fine” with it personally. If the guy did commit the act as alleged, he should be dealt with accordingly by law. However I do think the response has been disproportionate to the act.
Let me explain by using the example of fishing. Many people deliberately kill fish for pleasure and yet if people started calling them “sick” or “twisted” and suggested they should be killed themselves, the majority of law abiding citizens (including me) would consider those people a bit daft.
Andy’s comment earlier was ridiculed by some, but although I think he takes it too far there is some logic to his post. There is a degree of hypocrisy on display here.
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It’s a fair point Steve-O – I’ll admit that there is some irony in my post. You’re faced with a bit of a dilemma now though:
Although I accept you weren’t judging Donkey’s moral compass, you are judging others by your own moral compass.
Take the accused in this case. Take the legal aspect out of it for a moment and looking at this case purely on a moral and ethical level, what if the moral compass of the accused doesn’t see the deliberate killing of seagulls as any different to the deliberate killing of wasps? He may see seagulls as vermin (in the same way that we see wasps or rats) and therefore feel entirely justified in killing them.
Do we have the right to pass moral judgement on him for that view? It’s an interesting philosophical dilemma.
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Seagulls are pests like rats.
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And like rats, Andy, they have every bit as much right to inhabit this planet as you or I do (probably more so considering the amount of damage us humans do to the place).
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Andy – Gulls are only a pest in the eyes of some – mainly those people who put their rubbish out in broad daylight, in flimsy black sacks.
If you put bird food out for garden birds, finches etc quickly learn to take advantage. If you throw bread for the ducks (please don’t), they soon gather at the local pond, yet when gulls learn a similar thing, they are labelled as vermin.
At the moment, gulls are helped due to their bird table of several acres at Chouet – and who’s fault is that? Ours.
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I suppose what Im saying is that if he set them on rats the story wouldnt even have hit the papers.
Seagulls are a damn nuisance and frankly they need culling.
Oh and probably that chicken you ate last weekend lived in hell for most of its life unable to walk covered in excrement.
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@Dot Comma – don’t be too hard on us humans. Half the seagulls and rats wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for us nasty humans providing them with an plentiful and easy food source! I assume by your “rat rights” post though that if you get a rat infestation you’d be happy to share your house with them and won’t be calling in pest control?
I think it’s fair to say that some of us are set never to agree – still we’re all entitled to our own opinions. My moral compass gives human life a far greater value than animal life, it also allows for the killing of vermin. I personally don’t have a problem with hunting either, as long as it’s controlled and doesn’t result in the threat of extinction to species (e.g. the ivory trade).
IF this story is correct though I must confess I would find killing seagull chicks in this manner a cruel act – not to mention illegal. The humane culling of a few adult seagulls is a different matter though and if it was made legal, I wouldn’t have any moral issue with people dusting down their shotguns.
I don’t think it’s as reprehensible an act as some people make it out to be though. Let’s not forget that hunting is a natural human instinct and although the need to hunt to survive has gone, one can see why some people still get a thrill from it. It’s only because we live in such a sanitised culture that some people get so upset about it – if food supplies dried up or they lived in countries where people had to hunt to survive, a lot of this so called enlightened morality would fly out the window. The desire to hunt is actually a far more natural human behaviour than the current stream of cultural thought stating that killing any animal is wrong or that people who eat meat or enjoy hunting are morally bankrupt.
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PS to avoid confusion I was using the ivory trade as an example of uncontrolled hunting that threatens a species and should therefore be banned.
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Paul
I’m not judging anyone, as I put in my post, I was telling Donkey not to judge everyone else by his moral compass.
I was merely sticking up for people that have been judged for having different views to him.
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