67% fares hike ‘will drive people away from the buses’
Saturday 26th June 2010, 2:29PM BST.
Getting on a bus in Town yesterday – a privilege that will cost £1 if the Environment Department has its way. (Picture by Adrian Miller, 0989785)
AN INCREASE in bus fares will turn people back to their cars, according to pedestrian and public transport campaigners.
Members of the Bus Users Group and Living Streets have warned against Environment proposals to raise single bus fares from 60p to £1.
Living Streets secretary Pat Wisher said the group passed on concerns after it discussed the situation back in April.
‘There are a lot of bus users in our group and the general feeling was that prices shouldn’t be increased until service is improved,’ she said.
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Hopefully this will keep this annoying bunch of busybodies off our backs while they try to sort it out
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Oh you lucky, lucky people. Bus fares going up to £1. Come to England some time and see how we have to pay, then you’ll realise how cheap your fares are.
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And in Monaco Bobby they are cheaper and in some places free. We shouldn`t compare. This is a great service that must remain so. Save money States?!
- Recent summit = 200,000 bus journeys!!!!
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You have to sustain a business before it can provide extra or more frequent services. The price has been frozen at 60p for some time now and is not a realistic price to maintain the current services you have. If you don’t put it up not only will you not be able to improve services you will have less or none as they cannot affort to run at the current level. Our bus fare in the UK goes up every year regardless and is now currently £2.26 for one way, £3.26 for a return. There is no longer any free parking and the cheapest we can find to park is £5 a day. Somewhere, something has to give and an increase to £1 is a shame, but has to be balanced alongside the need to provide a service. If you continue along this way of thinking you will have to run a reduced service or none. Can’t be good for locals or tourists alike.
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At least in England you can get on a bus later than 8pm and still would be cheaper than Taxi,
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Guernsey buses = unreliable. It is not the fare that keeps me in my car, it is the fact I can’t trust the bus to turn up when the timetable tells me it will.
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Lets just get rid of the buses altogether.Or at very least adopt the user pays principle!
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Simon
Does the same apply for car parking?
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Some of us rely on buses, not everyone can drive. I would have no objections to payint £1 per journey but ONLY if the ‘service’ was to vastly improve.
There needs to be more buses running at peak times if the idea is to encourage people not to use their cars. People need to get to work before the time they are due to start, bosses don’t want to hear that the bus was late/didn’t turn up/took a wrong turn. Likewise at the end of a working day people want to be able to hop on a bus within 5 – 10 minutes. Nobody wants to wait 20, 30 minutes or sometime even longer depending on which part of the island they live in. I have had bus drivers tell me that they are often perceived as being rude, miserable or unhelpful when all that wrong with them is that they are tired because of the long hours they are expected to work often without a break. Well we all get tired but we don’t take things out on our customers or we’d all be out of jobs yet bus passengers are exepcted to put up with it. Island Coachways or the Environment Department need to stop passing the buck, communicate better and actually look after their drivers better. They also need to revise the timetables especially at peak times. Bring back the smaller shuttle buses which were better suited to our roads, look after the bus drivers and keep them happy, put buses on more regularly and maybe, just maybe we’d all be a lot happier.
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Simon….. applying the ‘user pays’ reasoning would mean that those who park in public spaces in town should be paying for the privilege and that could fund the bus service which provides a public benefit to us all.
Comparing the price of our local bus service with other jurisdictions is only valid if you also compare their price with their car-parking charges as well. It is the relevant difference between the 2 that is important. Our bus service will be 100% more expensive than parking in town…… £200% if you include the return journey.
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The current bus service is extremely reliable Truth Man. Your comment shows you have never given it a decent chance. The fact is that the buses do by and large turn up on time and on schedule. Sure, they do not cover some areas of the island adequately but that’s a different matter. I’ll also accept that the buses in the current fleet are too big for island roads.
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In all fairness I don’t use the bus that often. I work and live in town. What I would want to use it for would be if I want to go somewhere out of town, have a drink and not have to book a taxi and pay £10-£20 to get back into town. The times I have had to get the bus I haven’t had bad service. It’s been on time, the bus driver is usually nice and polite and even ocassionally chatty.
An evening service would be greatly appreciated. One that ran in winter too (why do we have summer timetables exactly?)
I don’t think £1 is too steep, but it is strange why we don’t have different amounts depending on how far you want to travel.
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Yes, User pays!!
Get on your bikes!!!
Sort out the obesity problem too.
Boooom!
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I’m an infrequent bus user for the pure and simple reason that I live in a poorly serviced area. I would use the bus more frequently if it allowed me to arrive at work on time and / or if there was a more frequent service between the hours of 17.00 – 18.30.
As quoted by posters above a user pays principal is the only way forward and IMO that also extends to paid parking. The revenue generated to be used for the sole purpose of improving / subsidising the bus service. Question is can we trust the states with more of our money?
Is some form of Oyster card offered for frequent bus travellers? A yearly subscription fee (set at a reasonable level) for the very frequent user may be worth considering.
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Sorry Martino but as a regular bus user myself I have to say that getting a bus home from work is often a case of pot luck. There have been occasions when the expected bus simply hasn’t materialised at all and they are very often late.
I do agree, however, that on the whole the early morning buses are on time. I arrive in Town at 7.30 though. If I caught a later bus I get stuck in traffic and don’t get to work on
time.
Sorting out ‘commuter buses’ should be made a priority. Hannah Beacom and staff from the Environment Dept should try travelling to and from work for a week. We’d soon see an improvement if they had to travel by bus!
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I have just heard on the radio that one of the bus routes has been suspended today because the bus driver had to go home for personal reasons, this surely cannot be right, I dont blame the driver for going home, but have they no reserve drivers. I am sure not everyone listens to Radio Guernsey stood at the bus stop,or did someone from Island coachways drive the route warning everyone there would be no bus today as the driver had gone home. This sounded like a story from toytown I thought it must be April 1st.And they want us to catch the bus.
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Regrettably the only transport system that allows our family to function with one full time worker, a part time worker, one child going to school and one at play school along with multiple activities comes in the form of a car.
It’s interesting to note that politicians that stand out to me as paid parking evangelists seem never to have been commuters or have never or don’t shuttle kids around anymore ; similiarly with environmentalists.
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Sorry to hear you’ve had problems CO. I’m an infrequent user but I have my ormer card and I make quite a few journeys in the winter in particular (mostly on the 6 and 7 routes) and I’ve always found the time keeping to be excellent. Admittedly I don’t tend to go by bus during the spring/summer and early autumn because I prefer to use my own two wheel transport.
I agree with those on this thread who say 50p a journey with an ormer card is not a bad price to pay but that any increase in fares must be accompanied by an increase/improvement in the service and that those who’ve been getting free parking for decades should pay for it. As I’ve said in the past, though, this current Environment Department wouldn’t know an integrated transport and traffic strategy if one came around the corner and ran them over.
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Martino I like your comment re the Environment Dept – spot on!
I too have my ormer card and the price isn’t bad at all. The service as it stands at the moment couldn’t possibly justify the proposed increase to fares. It needs to be better to encourage passengers to use it.
Let the car drivers pay £2 per person per day to park their vehicles. That would make a few quid.
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I’m interested to know what the anticipated increase in revenue is from this change. Would it be more than possible revenue from charging for parking?
As an infrequent user, I would pay £1 per trip, but it seems to me that a more integrated strategy would be a better way forward – paid parking or congestion charge or similar kills several birds with one stone – raises money, decreases congestion/pollution, raises more money to spend on buses, puts more people on the bus… and so on. In theory…
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This quote:
“It’s interesting to note that politicians that stand out to me as paid parking evangelists seem never to have been commuters or have never or don’t shuttle kids around anymore ; similiarly with environmentalists.”
is one of the most rubbish things I have ever laid eyes on.
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Following on from Neil Inder, I suggest that those States members who use the parking spaces reserved for them, volunteer to give them up for say three months. This should help the thought process for all those who believe that getting around the island is as simple as buying a bicycle and an Ormer card
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I agree with the idea that the price of bus travel should not increase until the service is improved. However, I would say that this should also be applied to paid parking. It is not justifiable to charge for parking if there is not a reliable alternative to driving into work.
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I agree with Neil Inder & Pyer’s idea, make states members give up reserved spaces for a period of time. Make sure though they give them up in the winter months (reduced bus service and bad weather)!
An intergrated transport stategy is the only solution, one that I suspect will not be forthcoming.
The States seem unable to intergrate an overall strategy between the person sitting next to them, let alone multiple departments and the thought process required to implement an joined up transport strategy. The only road (no pun intended) that this leads us down is further Consultant spend, get the mandate right this time please!
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This quote:
“I suggest that that those States members who use the parking spaces reserved for them,volunteer to give them up for three months”
is one of the best things I have ever laid my eyes on.
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I walk into work three times a week and catch the bus home. Up until this week I have not had a problem but I pick the bus up outside the Thomas de la Rue. Monday I had to stand from getting on the bus until I got home at L’Aumone. At one stage there were 14 of us standing – the buses state that 18 can be stood. I did not feel comfortable standing on the raised steps at the back of the bus with it lurching forward each time the driver braked. It also begged the question that if these buses are full on leaving town and they are wanting to encourage more users – how are they going to accommodate them. Will they put on two buses? Also I feel that the new amount that you have to spend to achieve the lowest rate of fare is definately not going to encourage new users.
On a finishing note I used the bus to go into town on Saturday evening and on arriving I asked the driver to confirm the time of the latest bus back home – to which his reply was “I don’t know I have better things to do with my time than read bus timetables! – This sums it up I think.
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If you want to use the bus then use it and pay what they ask.Having a young family there isnt enough time in the day to use busses to get about. But being a car user ive got to subsadise you.So yes charge more and maybe lower the tax on fuel.
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I am completely amazed that, in the middle of difficult financial times, the local bus fare is to be almost doubled. At the moment the bus services are a shambolic disgrace. I won’t bore you all with my negative experiences. Suffice to say that most services run late if and when they run at all. It is a terrible shame because Guernsey has the most dreadful traffic gridlock problems which a properly run and efficient bus service could help to alleviate.
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In an ideal world the opposite of what you are calling for should be done BM.
IE more tax on fuel, plus you pay for the privilege of parking in public spaces like North Beach (instead of receiving free, heavily subsidised parking as you do now), and the extra revenue is ring fenced to build up a vastly improved public transport service that WILL allow you and your young family to use the buses in future.
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I use buses to and from work five days a week. Like Coyote I have had too many negative experiences to mention here. Last evening I waited and waited for my bus by the Picquet House. I was there at 6pm, the bus was due at 6.10pm. It didn’t turn up so my first thought was that it was running late. All in all FIVE buses pulled up, emptied themselves of passengers then changed the sign on the front of the bus to read ‘sorry not in service’ before driving off towards the bus sheds. The sixth bus pulled up and the driver advised that the 6.25pm bus was running late but was on it’s way. I asked if he may have any idea why there was no 6.10pm bus and he said he was sorry but he assumed it must have been cancelled as they were short of drivers. There were three drivers that had been stood at the bus terminus eating chips and chatting since I arrived at 6pm. Now I’m certainly not saying they don’t deserve a break but if the situation is so bad that Island Coachways are actually cancelling services when people need to get home from work then why not pay a decent overtime rate. I’m sure some drivers would be prepared to do a bit extra when needed. The drivers do need to be treated a whole lot better in terms of pay and working hours so that there are enough of them to provide a service to customers.
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By provide a service to customers I meant to say a GOOD service.
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OH GET REAL PLEASE !!!!!!!!
I remember when bus fares were a minimum of £1.50 and that was to get from Town to St Sampsons
Strange how people never moaned it was “too cheap” when they reduced to a flat fare of 50p and then after a while increased it to 60p
£1 is about right , I am the first one to admit I dont use the buses much but when I do I feel sorry for the drivers as they have to put up with abuse for the size of the buses etc etc, it certainly costs me more than £1 to get right around the island , the cost of fuel alone has gone up a lot since the original fare was introduced. smoke 2 cigarrettes less a day and you will be in profit
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btw , I am also in favour of PAID parking , on the proviso that all of the money goes to improving the roads
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“North Beach (instead of receiving free, heavily subsidised parking as you do now) ”
How is pier parking subsidised more than any other disc zone parking, residential scheme or free States owned car parks; be they beach car parks or staff?
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I take your point Neil, you’re right, but I was trying to make the point that this big, open space is a valuable public owned resource in the middle of Town. If North Beach was in private hands think how much they’d charge for renting it out as a car park? Also, when it was reclaimed more than 25 years ago on behalf of all of us (not just car users in St Peter Port) did we really imagine this massive engineering project was being carried out exclusively for the benefit of a few hundred, maybe even a few thousand, motorists? If so what kind of vision was that?
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Martino
I think the point I’m trying to make is that Commuters have been unfairly singled out as the only ones to pay for the RTS; and some of the pro parkers aren’t being entirely straight in their arguments, I would suggest.
If everyone pays, well fair enough; if it’s just the put upon commuters that some would have you believe are the route of all evil then the thinking isn’t fair nor equitable.
Commuters don’t choose to drive into town because its a fun ride; it’s where the Island put all the offices, schools and States buildings.
Said me piece :)
N
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More fair points Neil. Said me piece too!
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@ Paul. I don’t smoke.
I have also said I wouldn’t object to higher fares if the bus service was vastly improved. I’ve been to London and the fares are over £2 but the service is worth it. They wouldn’t cancel services willy nilly and not give a thought as to how customers are supposed to get home…..
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@CO
I was purely making a comment that some people think nothing of moaning about the cost but will sit in the shelters for half an hour before their bus is due , smoke 2 – 3 cigarettes in that time and then get off 2 stops along the way because they are so unfit or lazy, I am referring to quite a few people on that . btw just for the reference I would probably class myself more on the “lazy” side but then again I dont complain about the service or the cost. If you are on a limited income or have a reasonable physical excuse then FREE bus passes are available through the States to those who NEED it.
I am with you on the cost side of things, 30 years ago my father was a bus driver , the services were much better then, there was 4 buses per hour each way to the airport for example , instead of just 2 now. HOWEVER the price then was the equivalent of what would now be roughly £4.
I do miss the buses previously excellent service but it has to be viable , YES the services do need but you get what you pay for , You dont expect Rolls Royce if you bought a car from the scrapyard
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The shuttle busses that took commuters from Footes Lane to town were good value, small, and performed a good service in reducing congestion.
Of course that’s not as possible now as the “public” car park there gets filled with the Grammar (OK, 6th form centre) students who get a car 1 nanosecond after turning 17.
One quick way to progress the strategy, raise the driving age to 18 and prohibit personal car transport to schools.
Instantly car parks become free for commuters, reintroduce shuttle busses and bus income inevitably rises with the kids now back on the busses.
Where’s my consultancy fee?!
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Neil
Your post on 29 June at 10.11 made me throw my pens in the air in ecstatic agreement!!!
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@ Paul
Sorry, didn’t realise you were generalising re smoking.
My father too was a bus driver 25 years ago and yes the services were much better.
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The bus service was better 20-30 years ago because…its not hard to figure it out…..there were more people who used the service so more buses were available, there were less cars and more toursts.
The only way to get people to use the service more is to make it cheaper and add more buses, but its a chicken and egg situation, and everyone moans when they get stuck behind an empty bus!
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The bottom line is a car will always be more convinient than a bus!! Tough Fact!
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@Maz
You seem to forget that 20-30 years ago the cost was about the same that it is going up to now so I dont understand where the problem is, its all relevant, it will actually be a lot cheaper than it was then, in those days to get right around the island you would have had to get on at , say , Pleinmont to get to town at a cost of approx 1.60 and then get another Bus from Town to go through the other part of the island at the same cost , Cost 20 years ago £3.20, cost AT MAXIMUM now – £2.00 ( £1.00 if you get the right bus and dont have to change )
@CJS Agreed.
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Brilliant plan, keep it going so that the bus users pay for the buses.
I don’t use the bus – why should I have to pay for it? I’m quite happy driving my 4×4 and paying the excessive price for the petrol. Generating extra revenue on the buses sounds like a great idea – i think thats a first in my book for the States!!
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Billy The Fish
The Grammar School car park is also used by members of the Rugby club and Athletics Club as well as any visitors to the rugby field or foots Lane, it is not JUST used by six form students.
It is used by a handful of students not every student attending Grammar has an aim to “get a car 1 nanosecond after turning 17″ as you put it – in fact my whole time at Grammar School i never met anyone that did just that!
And if they did so what? do they not have a right to drive and own a car like everyone else? Teenagers are pushed by parents and peers to pass their driving tests and save money to buy their first car as soon as possible!
I’m assuming you do not have children or have not much contact with teenagers as your comment is so off point and untrue.
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Missy
Plenty thanks. I actually use the car park for sport myself. Point is, that tends to be outside of commuting hours.
And every teen I know, and that’s quite a few, that have turned 17 this year have had driving lessons for their birthday (I know that doesn’t necessarily equal a car but still). And most of these are at Grammar.
When I was at College, in 1993, you are quite right, not many kids from college or Grammar had cars and therefore they were able to use the OP carpark (then a bit smaller) as a public carpark and operate the Shuttle Service from there!! You’ve actually proved my point!
And I agree with your point on the fact that 17 year olds are entitled to drive, pushy parents etc. What I’m suggesting is, remove that entitlement. The 17 year olds can survive one more year, less cars on the roads, more bus usage, more space for commuters to park, as whether you like it or not, the majority of spaces taken up at Footes Lane are from Grammar school students!!
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CJS:
It is a ‘tough fact’ that we have to reduce the number of car journeys in Guernsey wether the car is more convinient or not. It would therefore be intelligent to make sure that the alternatives are made more convinient and that there are clear incentives to encourage us to use them. Keeping driving as the cheap option while increasing the price of bus journeys is taking Guernsey in exactly the opposite direction to what we should be doing.
Describing the bus fare as ‘good value’ while parking stays free is meaningless since, in value terms, the latter still wins hands down. Also, comparing the price of our bus journeys with other jurisdictions is similarly meaningless unless you also take into account the cost of the parking in that jurisdiction.
Not only is it crazy to increase the bus fare while parking remains free, but to then admit that the money raised is not even going to go towards improving the service is depressing since it seems to indicate a total lack of interest in creating an integrated transport strategy.
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Billy
Add to that the Odeon carpark which during term-time is completely impossible to get near, let alone a space on, what with the priviliged boys and girls who are driving cars at 17 that it took me until I was about 25 to afford myself.
Which frankly is ridiculous, but still its less of their parents 4×4′s on the road.
On another note about cars vs buses and schoolkids try this…..
If you want to see a fantastic sight, observe the area around the odeon at about 7.45-8.00, its chocked full of 4×4′s with 1 parent, 1 child (evidently car pooling is alien to the “look I have the latest model X5″ brigade).
They proceed to stop at the end of the road outside the cemetary (blocking the road), then wait for their child to get out which takes some time as they wont be rushed…. lets teach them apathy towards the general rabble at an early age, after this, then the next parent stops in the same place etc etc.
This is madness, tell me, do kids nowadays not know how to use buses?? All this expensive education, but none of them seem to have the skills to get home without being picked up by mummy or sent away on intensive driving courses to pass their test and come back frankly a terrible driver.
And Billy, its Picoseconds mate, Nano is being much too generous a space of time.
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We use the Buses for our 2 week summer holiday.All the drivers used to be fantastic,now most of them are miserable and moaning.The scottish lady is the best of the bunch.We are now getting warned about carrying beach equipment on the bus,ie small body board for child.If it wasnt for holiday makers using the buses it would mean extra cars on the rd and putting us off coming for holidays. A small rise in fares is ok but beware not to over price in these times.More people are off abroad as British hols are expensive as they are ,so dont put another nail in the coffin.
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Steve-O
I agree, although the only think I would say, is that it is possible (however unlikely in many cases) that the 4×4 with the one child is doing the last stop in a car pool?
Certainly when my kids are at big school, we’ll pool (if the busses aren’t practical) but there will inevitably come a time when only one person will be in the car, and it will look then like selfish motoring, when it won’t be.
Couldn’t agree with you more about the taking time to get little billy out of the car. One of my biggest every peeves is this: You want to go round the Albert statue, but you can’t. why? Because someone is waiting for a parking space, even though the owner of the parked car hasn’t even finished putting their bags in their car, let alone pack up the buggy and get the kids in.
So traffic backs up while the selfish bugger waits 10 mins for their space to become free!
Honestly! You should move on. It’s not free until someone is driving out – ie has their engine on!
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Rosie
“It is a ‘tough fact’ that we have to reduce the number of car journeys in Guernsey wether the car is more convinient or not.”
I’m intrigued and not trying to be purposefully facetious but who says and why?
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@ Paul
I did not mention cost as it is all relative, bus fares may have been relatively more expensive 20-30 years ago but then the cost of a car was also relatively high, which is why for many people would could not afford a car and car ownership then was much lower so getting the bus was a good alternative.
Now that you can buy yourself a cheap runaround for £250 you can say there is no need to do so.
We all moan that there are too many cars on Guernsey, but no one wants to say, ok lets make it one house one car! BTW I do not own a car but my boyfriend does.
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@ Steve-O, Billythefish
As a former Ladies’ College student, I find your comments (or should I say generalisations?) insulting and off-point.
I got the bus home from school everyday along with many of my peers for the six and a half out of seven years I attended college. Yes, when I turned 17 I worked hard to pass my test and then drove to school, as the bus service used to be late, and it would often take me upwards of an hour to get home, which was a waste of time considering how hard I had to work in the evenings as I’m sure all College students do.
I agree that students are an issue on the roads, and take up parking, but as I have explained this does not entitle you to make discerning generalisations towards students and their parents. That is not the issue, and perhaps if the bus service was prompt, many more of my peers would have joined me on the bus.
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Martino:
You are not right. I have given the bus service a very decent chance. My comments based on my, and my other half’s experience, stand.
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abc
No-one is making generalisations
We are making observations based on fact.
They are also not off point because this is a thread on buses no??
All the points mentioned effect, or are effected by Guernsey’s bus service.
Although well done for putting up with the reputational damage of riding the bus to school for 6 years, what must some of your classmates have thought about you????
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Hi abc, sorry you took offence. In one sense in cases like these generalisations are unavoidable. In my honest opinion the majority of grammar and eliz college pupils do get cars on or close to their 17th.
Actually if you read my post, I was focussing more on the Footes Lane car park. The odeon does get taken up by Lizzie C people, but at least they compete with commuters. I was an EC boy (no car till I finished uni) and at the time, Footes Lane was pretty free for commuters who could then catch the Shuttle Bus.
And I wasn’t originally making any comment on parents, Missy raised that one, I just thought that yes, it does happen.
The only thing I would say “against” your post is a couple of references to “working hard”. I passed my test at 17 and 3 months, therefore I guess I “worked hard” at it, but that didn’t entitle me to drive to school. As I said, I didn’t. And yes, living out West, I usually got home an hour later, then had work on top of that, but that hasn’t changed.
Actually, you’re right to a degree, the general students car vs student bus, is indeed not on topic. However, the discussion rose in response to an idea I had to increase bus usage, reducing congestion at the same time.
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Neil:
Last year, Guernsey signed up to the Copenhagen Communique which asks for a global GHG emissions cap which will limit global temperature rises to a max of 2C. That will only happen if developed jurisdictions like ours, start planning for reductions straight away. It will need to be in the region of 80% cuts needed by 2050; 34 to 42% by 2020. Vehicles on our roads are our biggest contributor to CO2 emissions… we will not meet any targets without addressing that. It would also look pretty dreadful if having signed that Communique, we then refuse to take any action ourselves.
In an earlier post, Missy says that everyone has a ‘right’ to drive. But unfortunately, we have given that ‘right’ a greater priority than our ‘responsibility’ to protect and safe-guard Guernsey’s priceless environment. I think it is a huge shame what we have done to the island, and are still doing, in order to, not only protect that ‘right’, but also to encourage us to exercise that ‘right’, at the expense of the island.
Obesity is going to be another huge cost for our community. It is in all our interests that we encourage less sedantry ways of living and reduced car use helps that too.
I don’t deny that cars are develishly useful and can be very convinient, but it seems ludicrous to continue to excerbate a problem that we have created. We are not going to get rid of cars, but we can significantly reduce their usage and in the process improve Guenrsey’s air quality and environment and make it a much nicer place to live. An efficient and frequent bus service therefore provides the whole community with a benefit that is not just enjoyed by those who make the effort to use it.
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Rosie said, “Vehicles on our roads are our biggest contributor to CO2 emissions”.
Thats the trouble with you huggers though Rosie.
Its all about CO2, forget the science , hate the car.
I think you will find that our collection of landfill sies and thousands of compost heaps, manure heaps, slurry heaps and sewage discharge and cows will far outweigh our traffic and power generation emissions of, I can’t believe I’m going to type this, Greenhouse gasses.
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Rosie, thanks for your response and in part accepted. In my view it doesn’t change my perception that the town commuters are the ones being singled out for special treatment.
Policies have a tendency to go after soft targets and easy wins:
Commuters yes, school runners no
Smokers yes, gluttons no
legal highs yes, alcohol sales no
incinerator (nearly) yes, bonfires no
I like many of my contempories are just bored of the continued social engineering that pervades our society; most of it eminating from the political left.
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Come on Neil, forgetting all the C02 arguments don’t you think that this tiny island is blighted by too much reliance on and too much use of our cars?
I certainly do and I hardly think that a few well thought out policies designed to achieve a significant decrease in car use (not banning the car!) can be described as “social engineering emanating from the political left”.
Well said Rosie, you stick to your guns girl.
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Since our deputies are never going to vote for paid parking, and the traffic congestion grows worse and worse, how about this suggestion?
Sell off (or rent out) all the large town car parks to private companies (like NCP).
-achieves paid parking with no electoral pain
-raises huge wodges of cash to pay off the black hole
-reduces congestion as some commuters decide to switch to buses, walking, or cycling
-improves pollution, noise, and even fitness as a result
-makes the bus service more profitable (or at least means it requires less subsidy)
-generates a few jobs as a side effect (parking attendants and the like)
any views?
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Martino
Can’t argue with you regarding the amount of cars. My fault for drifting off the topic onto paid parking – apologies. FWIW, the price rise is fine by me as it’s still good value.
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Neil:
Neil…. another way of looking at it, is to recognise what a long and easy ride commuters in Guernsey have had over the years. Parking has been free for all that time….. should it ever have been? Look at what it has done!
I totally agree though that we all need encouragement to use our cars less and not just the commuters, which is why it should not just be parking that is targetted. It needs to be a multi faceted strategy… we’re all in this together and we all need encouragement to make the choices that impact less. What is clear though, is that if coming into town by bus is more expensive than driving in and parking, (and due to become significantly more expensive) then no-one is going to be encouraged to do the thing that would benefit the whole community…. leaving the car at home.
The bus provides a community benefit. The private car does not…. it creates a dis-benefit. The playing field should therefore be tilted towards the thing that benefits the whole island and not the thing that is creating the problem.
If we want we can focus only on the negative aspects of that idea….. but there are MANY more positives too, and since we are going to have to tackle this chestnut wether we like it or not….. why don’t we focus on the positives and work towards achieving them asap.
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Stefan:
Sorry to disappoint you but I don’t hate the car…… I have one and I love driving. What I do hate is the externalised effects that our cars have on our local (& global) environment, that we do not pay for….. or in many cases, even consider. Those ‘externalised’ effects are far more important in my opinion, and should take far greater priority than wether I (or you) love or hate cars…. which really is irrelevant!
As for your list of high GHG emitters…. you are quite right to consider them…. certainly, most ‘huggers’ would. (I suspect that the ‘huggers’ are not the ones responsible for the methane coming out of M.C.for a start) There is however a big difference between them and ‘fossil’ fuels that, not being part of our current GHG cycle, are up-setting the delicate balance.
We are going to have to tackle the over-dependence on car use at some point….. the sooner we make a start the better off we will be. Hiking up the price of the buses without either plans to improve the service or ensuring that it provides better value than car-driving will simply make our situation even harder and more painful to unravel later.
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Does the States have a strategy? The bus service is heavily subsidized by the states and all it seems to achieve is for empty busses to travel around the island. I have asked Island Coachways management how they determine the schedule and how they try and maximize bus users and the answer is simply – They do not care. They are paid for moving the busses around the island and not for the amount of passengers they carry. If the States has a strategy of reducing traffic they should incentivize the bus service by introducing a per passenger subsidy. Only then we will see an effective bus service and even late night busses from town
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Rosie,
Where is the proof of these adverse effects that cars have on the global environment that you refer to? Until scientists can provide actual evidence the world is indeed warming up, rather than fudging figures to suit a particular political agenda, I will not be brainwashed into believing that the car is responsible for all of the world’s ills.
However, I would agree that from a logistical perspective there are too many cars in Guernsey, and returning to the topic, £1 is still good value for a pretty good bus service (which I use).
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Butterbean:
Clearly Butterbean…. you are a gambler even when the chips are stacked so high! Luckily for you, you are unlikely to be on the front line as the impacts take hold so you can afford to take your relaxed attitude. Those in Africa and other ‘hot’ spots might not take such a cavalier attitude.
Vehicles are certainly not our only contributor to our GHG emissions, but they do make the biggest contrabution so will have to be part of the reduction. If you don’t want to believe the global warming scenario, then try this one for size…. Ocean Acidification; http://www.oceanacidification.net/ also being caused by too much CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere.
The ‘adverse effects’ of too many cars on our roads is also not just about GHG emissions. There are plenty of other negative effects felt locally.
A £1 bus fare might be good value for what you get….. but it is NOT good value when you compare it to the cost of parking in town. It is the difference between the two that will influence behaviour and any increase in bus prices will not encourage more people to use their cars less. It therefore will not have the desired effect and should be re-thought.
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Rosie,
I do not have a ‘cavalier attitude’ about the potential impact of global warming, I am however cavalier about people like yourself who present theories of climate change as fact. Whilst you may have the larger scientific community on your side (including a number of self serving institutions and universities) there are many other climatologists that take a different view on the causes of global warming.
There are those scientists that believe that global warming is cyclical in nature and this is a warm period following the mini ice-age that occurred pre 1900, others state that warming is actually down to variations in the suns output and cyclical changes to the earths orbit and there are those that believe that man’s impact and contribution to greenhouse gasses to global warming is simply overstated. Over 99% of the greenhouse effect is actually due to natural causes.
My point is that that those who state that climate change is simply a result of man’s activities with the car being the biggest culprit are not presenting a balanced view. I have to say that reading your comments about the cars adverse impact on the environment and your love of driving is simply not a reconcilable position in my opinion.
I did take time to read you link and I am afraid itis again misleading to present this as another global warming epidemic. The below is a quote from a scientific paper in response:
“there is so little CO2 in the atmosphere in the first place, so it will there is already 70 times as much CO2 in solution in the oceans as there is in the atmosphere. Even if all of the additional CO2 we emit were to end up not in the atmosphere CO2 in the oceans would rise by little more than 1%”
And;
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091230184221.htm
I could go on.
Finally, I had already stated that the number of cars in Guernsey was too many and I do advocate paid parking, however regarding the causes of global warming, I will not be ready to believe everything Al Gore says just yet.
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Leon
Your post of 5th July:
Does the States have a strategy? The bus service is heavily subsidized by the states and all it seems to achieve is for empty busses to travel around the island. I have asked Island Coachways management how they determine the schedule and how they try and maximize bus users and the answer is simply – They do not care. They are paid for moving the buses around the island and not for the amount of passengers they carry.
I was shocked by what you wrote but it carries the heavy ring of truth.
If the States determines the strategy and the routes then clearly they have never used the buses regularly and they should consult with those who actually do use them.
Secondly what an appalling reply from Island Coachways to say that they do not care and are simply paid for moving buses around the island. That is really for good public relations and demonstrates exactly how much they consider customer care.
Maybe the States should consider giving the contract as soon as possible to a company who will care about their customers and the service they provide.
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Bus was ten minutes late AGAIN this morning. Not the driver’s fault; he was doing all he could. It was the pretence that a service can run in a set amount of time when it clearly can’t because of traffic and roadworks.
Thought of complaining and asking if the service times might be modified but then Island Coachways have said publicly [see post by Leon on 5th July] that they don’t care cos they’re paid for moving buses around the island and not for the passengers they carry.
So I guess I just have to shut up and put up. As long as Island Coachways get their money why should they care if my life gets messed up in the process.
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it IS a sad fact that Island Coachways don’t care about their customers. When bus services were being cancelled willy nilly last week I found myself stuck for almost an hour before there was a bus to get me home. I got home just after 7pm. Terrific. There were drivers standing around chatting and eating. Sure they deserve a break but if the lack of drivers is such a dire situation that people are forced to wait around then the whole thing should be handled better and the drivers deserve somewhere to take a break.
The next evening I call Island Coachways to check which services were being cancelled and the male inspector who answered was rude to me. He was no doubt fed up being asked the same question again and again. Hardly my fault though.
And they want to increase the fares? Better start providing a good service then, including good customer service.
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The sooner the States wise up to these clowns the better.
You will be hard pressed to find anyone outsite the Boucher family who think ICW should keep the contract.
They have continually failed to deliver an acceptable service. If you can’t run a service with £2.5M pa to run someoneelse’s fleet you should not be in business.
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Butterbean – By being happy for Guernsey to delay taking action, I feel you are satisfied that the risk is worth it. I guess that is where we differ because I am not.
We are being told that we have to take action straight away to avoid the worst case scenario…. infact, I gather we already might be too late. But you would like us to continue with business as usual and keep our fingers crossed that all the scientists are wrong. Science can never be 100% sure of anything, but the level of ‘probability’ that they have attributed to the theory of anthropogenic global warming is (I gather) as high as it gets in scientific terms. That’s good enough for me particularly when the downside of ignoring the evidence is sooo huge….. bigger than we can contemplate. It’s simple risk management. Pascal’s Wager.
Of course there are some scientists that have alternative views…. that’s science for you. But those views and theories have (apparently) been taken into account and the overwhelming consensus (apparently) is that the science (of climate change) remains ‘robust’..
As for your ‘fact’ that 99% of greenhouse effect is due to natural causes… of course that is so. How else would the world be warm enough for us to inhabit it?
No-one (that I have read) is suggesting that mans contribution to the total quantity of gases in the atmosphere is huge….. it does not have to be. It just needs to be enough to upset what is apparently a very delicate balance. A set of weighing scales perfectly balanced with a pile of sugar on both sides, does not need much added to either side to upset the balance… it only needs a few grains.
The link to Ocean Acidification is nothing to do with global warming. It is a totally separate issue. It is simply another consequence of more CO2 being absorbed into the oceans than is usual and at such a rate that the marine creatures are unable to evolve to deal with it…. particularly those at the bottom of the food chain.
As for the car being the ‘biggest culprit’…. I doubt very much that it is globally. Here in Guernsey however, according to the States own statistics, (2009) road transport is the biggest contributor of GHG. Taking into account our GHG emissions and the threat of Peak Oil, my feeling is that, as a community, we would be much better served if we started to make the transition asap to becoming a less carbon intensive community.
I am glad that you agree that there are too many cars on our roads. For my money, you could totally ignore the GHG argument, and there are still enough compelling reasons to significantly reduce car use here. That will only happen though if there is a viable and inexpensive alternative. As long as car use and parking remain the cheaper way of travelling, none of us will be encouraged to use them less. Raising the cost of bus travel will therefore be totally counter productive.
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I am not saying that the science of global warming is wrong but there are many questions being asked on the validity of such findings which I guess you choose to ignore. The whole crux underlying your argument is that man is responsible for the changes to the composition of CO2 in the environment and thus global warming. Therefore the probability of the science behind this is correct. But you are very vague about these probabilities; ‘apparently’ these views have been taken into account and ‘apparently’ the science of change is robust? How do you go from high probability to ‘apparently’? Having done statistics I have never used that measure?
My point about greenhouse gasses was that man’s contribution was incredibly small but you you infer that this is a delicate balance? How can you have balance with 99% on one side 1% on the other? I guess this is the science of Ocean Acidification which you state is completely separate but in an earlier post:
“If you don’t want to believe the global warming scenario, then try this one for size…. Ocean Acidification, also being caused by too much CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere”.
How can this be separate as according to your science it is cause and effect?
Regarding the cars impact? I think you should read your earlier posts and I note you failed to respond to my point about your love of driving but hating the effects? I would give up the car if I was you and become a vegetarian.
Regarding actual car use, we agree, however you brought into this thread the GHG argument and CO2 emissions and, a like a lot of your environmentalist counterparts cannot wait to refer to global warming in the same sentence as car use and I feel it is important to provide some balance. My views that for an island the size of Guernsey, car use should be discouraged as I have lived in a large city and seen the impact of cars on air quality first hand.
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Careful Butterbean, you know GHG preachers don’t like it when you ask for some clarification on their use of data.
Like the “Ocean Acidification”, the fact that 6 billion people have been using it as a chemical toilet for a hundred years is irrelevent. it’t your car.
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Steve
After another miserable weekend of travelling on the buses I’d just like to echo and endorse your comments. Maybe if the Boucher family actually had to use their own bus service there might be some change for the better; or maybe I’m just crying for the moon.
Incidentally why was the seafront closed for ten hours? Surely not just for two lots of roadside tables? This delayed bus services by up to half an hour.
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Coyote – you should have tried driving a car on Sunday !!! What with the Oakly spin, the seafront closed, the road race AND all the roadworks it was chaos.
I didn’t think the Bouchers ran Coachways anymore ? And what makes you think those running the services never use them ?
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If whoever does manage Coachways used the bus services they’d realise the problems that there are and maybe they wouldn’t tell people like Leon that they ‘simply don’t care’.
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I used the round the island service no 7 on Sunday. One of the smaller buses was doing the run. It was hot, packed and very uncomfortable.
I know Coachways only have a limited number of buses but services, 1, 2, and 8 don’t run on Sundays so they must have some spare buses.
Why put a small bus on the 7 route on Sundays when lots of people might want to do the round island trip. After all sometimes there’s not much else to do in Guernsey on Sundays.
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this island is probably unusual in having so many very small roads in such a very small space (which is down to awful past planning policy – eg ribbon development in the 50s and 60s). the roads are obviously too small to carry vehicles designed for much greater spaces. but most people here, on average, are wealthier than in equivalent very small places, so act out their god given right to buy the largest hummer possible to take the yorkie for a walk and the one small child to pre-school, or rush to the office or shop round the corner. and most drive like they are sitting in their own home so think they can do what the hell they like. no wonder motoring stress and stupidity reign on our lanes. amazingly, the average journey will take about 10 to 15 mins in guernsey but most bods have to accelerate and brake and accelerate and brake to shave 30 seconds off their journey because they live such busy busy ‘me me me’ lives. putting a public transport service into this scenario is an almost impossible task but needs every support. the bus service is imperfect. to make it better supported means cheaper not more expensive fares and a ‘real world’ transport strategy means paid car parking(virtually nowhere else on the planet has so much free car parking in such a small space). too many politicians sought the popular vote in self interest and turned a once previously agreed transport strategy (comprehensive and workable but not popular) on its head. the current environment committee are a complete disgrace in proposing this increase. there is no longer anything resembling a traffic stategy in the island and i have never expected anything else from mr sirett whose philosophy to my mind has always been sod buses, sod slowing down, let’s all be jeremy clarkson.
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Firstly, apologies for the tedious repetition needed in this post.
Butterbean:
The ‘whole crux underlying my argument’ is that, if the scientists are right with what they are saying and warning us about, we do not have time to do nothing while we wait to see if they are 100% right….. which is what you want to do. Science should always be questioned… I have no problem with that. I am happy to admit though, that the scientists, many who have been studying this for decades, know alot more than I do about it, (& I suspect more than you too) and if they are saying that we are fast running out of time, then I am not going to be the one to say, ‘well, let’s hang on and do nothing because I’m not ready to believe you yet’. The risks are too great. I explained that all perfectly well in my last post.
I can’t be bothered to respond to your 99% question because I think I was also perfectly clear about that in my last post. Ditto Ocean Acidification. I have re-read both paragraphs several times to try to figure out how you could misinterpretate them and fail to see how.
As for my not responding to your point about my enjoying driving….. I didn’t because I thought it was such a stupid comment to be honest. Why on earth shouldn’t I enjoy driving? Most people I know enjoy driving…. why should I be any different? I also enjoy eating chocolates but am not too keen on the effect that has either. Ditto jumping off the banks on the north end of Herm…. terrific fun but a disaster for the banks and the surrounding area so not to be done. There are plenty of other examples.
In explaining why I commented in an earlier post, that we would have to reduce car journeys in Guernsey, I said (July 3rd 8:30am)…..
“Last year, Guernsey signed up to the Copenhagen Communiqué which asks for a global GHG emissions cap which will limit global temperature rises to a max of 2C. That will only happen if developed jurisdictions like ours, start planning for reductions straight away. It will need to be in the region of 80% cuts needed by 2050; 34 to 42% by 2020.’ Those are the targets being considered for the developed world. Wouldn’t you agree that it would therefore be sensible to look at whatever are the highest emitters to see how we are going to achieve those targets? What would you look at if not the big emitters? According to the States own figures, vehicles on our roads are our biggest contributor. How are we going to meet any target without acknowledging that? And yet you manage to infer from this that I brought up the GHG argument because I “cannot wait to refer to global warming in the same sentence as car use”. Sorry…. but I was simply pointing out the issue that can’t be ignored… however much some would like to! Guernsey, just like every where else, will have to meet any global targets set. Burying our heads in the sand and pretending this problem is not there is not going to make it go away, it will simply make it more difficult to deal with later. There is nothing ‘balanced’ about the way we treat car driving in Guernsey….. it’s cheaper than in most other places and is then given free parking to further boost its popularity as a form of transport. In no way do we pay for the adverse effects our driving creates when we take our cars out…… it is all externalised. Your making out that by ignoring one of those adverse effects, the GHG emissions, is ‘balancing’ the argument is complete tosh!
I finish with a paragraph from an earlier post……’I don’t deny that cars are devilishly useful and can be very convenient, but it seems ludicrous to continue to exacerbate a problem that we have created. We are not going to get rid of cars, but we can significantly reduce their usage and in the process improve Guernsey’s air quality and environment and make it a much nicer place to live. An efficient and frequent bus service therefore provides the whole community with a benefit that is not just enjoyed by those who make the effort to use it’.
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