Deputy to use requete to overturn ‘draconian’ cigarette vending ban
Thursday 8th July 2010, 2:29PM BST.
THE States will be asked to rethink its ban on cigarette vending machines.
Last week, members voted 25 to 20 to ban them, including those accessible only to over-18s.
But today Deputy Dave Jones (pictured) is preparing a requete to overturn the amendment.
‘I think there was no level of fairness in the decision,’ he said.
‘The fact of the matter is that these people are running legitimate businesses selling legal products.’
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When Oh when will our states members realise that smoking is a killer! Cigarette vending machines contribute to the potential deaths of users. There is no doubt smokers will die of horrible smoking related illnesses unless they stop. Surely there should be a complete ban on all tobacco products regardless of the so called cost to those who sell those products now.
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It seems that profits come well before peoples health for some !.
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How pathetic is this, coming from the politician who campaigned and voted AGAINST the fundamental freedom of islanders not to have their atmosphere in public places poisoned by cigarette smoke?
I recall DJ saying that HSSD didn’t have the ‘courage of its convictions’ last month because it didn’t go for an outright ban on tobacco products. Hypocritical nonsense as always because if you had the courage of your own convictions, Dave, the prayer of your requete would be to turn the clock back a few years to the days when bar staff, office workers, restaurant and pub goers were forced to breath in noxious tobacco fumes and go home with their clothes stinking of filthy cigarette smoke.
Just try bringing back those good old days, Dave, and see how far you get.
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After the various States u-turns with the waste solution you can’t blame Dave Jones for trying his luck. I doubt he’ll succeed though.
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Martino
It is certainly not pathetic; it is fighting for the things you believe in. This Requete is not about the ban on advertising, I have accepted that argument has been lost. This Requete is about vending machines only. Any decision taken that results in legislation which affects the livelihoods of perfectly legitimate businesses must be open and transparent, with consultation on both sides. People have mortgages and other financial commitments tied up in theses Vending businesses and this Island wide ban on vending machines was brought in without any research whatsoever, by an “on the hoof” amendment, which in our view is not the action of any government which believes in fairness and dialog with its people. Those trading in these vending machines have had no chance to respond and the subject of any such ban should be as a result of a properly laid out detailed report, with all those involved properly consulted, in order that the States can make an informed and balanced decision at the end of that process. As far as smoking goes, it has to be recognised that people have human failings, not everybody is perfect, these people pay their taxes in order that we can treat some of those failings and this creeping, insidious big brother approach to everything, is in my view totally wrong. People smoke that is a fact, I and everyone else I know wishes they didn’t. Why don’t we just have them all deported for the foul smelling, stinking ,filthy people that they are, would that satisfy you Martino? Also don’t you check anything properly? In my speech in 08, I actually supported the banning of smoking in restaurants and café’s, in fact anywhere that sold food, or where children had access. Other than pubs where they sold sealed packet snacks and no children were allowed. So I don’t need to turn the clock back because I agreed that part of the legislation was perfectly sensible. I did quite rightly appose the blanket ban on all pubs, again recognizing that a substantial number of people still smoke and someone needs to represent their views, you certainly wouldn’t say that other addicts of drugs should not have their views listened too just because they are addicts. The pubs should have been able to choose which of them wanted to allow smoking on the premises and those who didn’t. Have a voluntary smoking ban, again, the freedom of grown ups being able to choose for themselves. That too would have left people the choice of where they wanted to drink, and of course bar staff could choose which pubs they wanted to work in. now what is wrong with that in any democracy? There is nothing hypocritical in my stance whatsoever; it has been consistent all the way through. You don’t happen to agree with it and that’s fine, it is after all what debate is all about. Although it is interesting Martino how animated you get when someone disagrees with you, you must be a real delight to live with.
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Good on you Dave – the states are out of order here – Deputy Bunny does not think this goes far enough and wants to ban all sort of other products too – excuse me dont we have a right to a choice?
Personally if this comes in, and even if it doesnt, I wont be asking for cigarettes anymore – I am going to be asking for packets of “Hadleys”
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Dave, a public place is a public place and your past attempts to water down the smoking ban down to allow the air in some pubs to remain poisonous would have compromised Guernsey’s entire anti-smoking strategy.
Your requete is another example of you trying to undermine that strategy – this time by allowing the tobacco industry to continue marketing its insidious product through vending machines. Throughout this whole process you have put the industry first and the health needs of islanders second.
Yes, I am quite animated about this subject, and understandably so after being exposed for two decades of my adult life to the toxic fumes of smokers – at work and in public places. However, I have some way to go to become as het up as you are, as can be seen from your increasingly long and rambling diatribes.
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As a non-smoker i personally believe we have gone far enough except for bring in a ban on smoking whilst driving as that is as dangerous as using a mobile phone. The ban on vending machines was a step too far and without any consultation should never have been passed
What next..Ban condom machines in toilets as may encourage Under 16′s?
Dave J – You are right to bring this back as I bet half of those who voted had no idea of full implications. What will Condor do as I assume their Duty free shop on board can not be open at all in Guernsey waters unless cigarettes are under the counter?
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PC
The vending machine operators are being treated more than fairly here. They’ve got a whole 18 months to prepare for the ban (too long in my opinion) and during that time their machines will have contributed towards a number of new young recruits taking up this nasty, deadly habit.
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PC – Your comparison is not equal. As far as I’m aware Condoms pose no health risks…in fact regardless of age there can only be good results from advertising them. I also don’t know of any teenage boy who’s impulse to have sex was so he could use condoms…of course I may be wrong.
Condor and all ferry providers cannot sell duty free in any jurisdictions waters. That’s the reason why they close the shop about half an hour before you arrive. They can sell it in international waters. The same is true of planes. Once you’re flying over international waters you can sell duty free. The airport is also technically international hence the reason why they can open the duty free shop once you’re in departures.
As far as I’m aware other products such as alcohol and fast food do not pose health risks if they are taken moderately. I’m not sure the same can be said of tobacco.
I’m not particularly for or against this ban as it doesn’t affect me at all being a non-smoker. Of course the smokers will still smoke, but this is perhaps a long term project. How many people want to give up and usually do but have a cigarette when they’re out drinking?
As I said previously it won’t be that long till all tobacco products are sold in little white cardboard boxes with the brand name stencilled on the side.
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If a smoker wants to smoke they will.
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Smoking directly affects the health of others around you. Smoke can be detected in the lungs of children whose parents don’t smoke in front of them, and don’t even smoke at home.
Drinking alcohol doesn’t. Not once have I become intoxicated by standing next to someone who is drinking. If you breathalise children after their parents come home from the pub they won’t be drunk.
In that respect taking heroin or cocaine is better then smoking – it only directly affects the user, not those around them.
Deputy Jones – if you are truly not hypocritical than can you please bring a requette to restore the right to import and sell legal highs. There were legal businesses selling legal products who had their livelihood taken away with no consultation …..
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Deputy Jones, it is disappointing to see you resorting to personal attacks when none were levelled at you. I expect a more professional approach from politicians and I think that we, the voters, are entitled to such.
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Deputy Jones
If your requete passes, will you be making time in your busy diary in a few years to attend the funerals of the additional people who will die of lung cancer and other smoking related diseases? Come to that, will you be putting aside some of your savings towards paying for their medical treatment too?
No?
Thought not.
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James
I’m struggling to find some validity in your points. Firstly, if there are no machines smokers will simply buy their cigarettes elsewhere, they’re not going to give up. Secondly, smokers contribute massively to the islands coffers, both through the duty on tobacco and the fact they most likely won’t be drawing their pension until they’re 100. A recent study showed that the person that costs the state most in terms of helathcare and pensions is the very fit person, who is more likely to live to a ripe old age and quite possibly end up with Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, severe dementia etc which last for years and are expensive to treat.
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Phil,
What study is that?
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This thread has been polluted by a lot of old tosh!
Well done Dave Jones for sticking your head above the parapet and coming out against a law that was (a) terribly drafted and lacking in consultation and (b) makes no sense anyway.
If the States really wanted to stop kids buying cigarettes, make it an automatic 6mth jail term for anyone found selling to someone under the age of 18.
All banning vending machines will do is drive some people out of business. It won’t stop anyone from smoking…I can’t see how some of the posters on this thread are so ignorant to beleive that!
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Greg, you just don’t get it do you?
The vending machines are used by the tobacco industry as a marketing tool to win NEW recruits to replace the old ones who die prematurely through the use of their product. Also, banning them is just one part of a strategy being followed by health authorities throughout the western world to reduce dependence levels and push this evil product ever closer to the margins of legality. That is why the tobacco giants are so resistant to it.
As for smokers contributing massively to the island’s coffers, to borrow one of Dave Jones’ best loved phrases, it is not going to be beyond ‘the wit of man’ to fill that particular revenue gap.
And with regard to Phil’s mysterious ‘study’, this is probably one of those ‘studies’ carried out for and on behalf of the tobacco industry. IE a study that is entirely without validity.
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ChrisJ
I can’t remember what the name of it was but I read the results in the newspaper, so it must have been either the Independent or the Times.
It compared three people (one a smoker and drinker, one reasonably healthy and one very fit) and concluded that the healthier you are the more you cost the state in the long run.
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Martino
Are you seriously suggesting that smoking will be made illegal any time soon? You can forget that for a start, for several reasons. Firstly it’s a huge worldwide business employing a massive amount of people, secondly it would be an infringement on civil liberties, and thirdly governments the world over know they’d be in even more trouble than they are now if smoking wasn’t there as a significant source of income.
Vending machines are there for convenience only, to suggest that they’re the reason that kids take up smoking is ridiculous.
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Sorry Martino, but it’s you who just doesn’t get it. Vending machines as a marketing tool? What a load of tosh! Please, point out the marketing elements of the types of vending machines we have in Guernsey, with specific emphasis on the physical locations of these vending machines and how they win “NEW recruits” (as you so over-dramatically put it).
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First Greg, go to anyone involved in trying to stop the marketing and promotion of cigarettes to children (the World Health Organisation, our own Medical Officer of Health, the British Heart Foundation) and they will give you the firm evidence you need that tobacco vending machines need to be banned.
This from the UK Department of Health, which is seeking to gain Royal assent for a total tobacco vending machine ban in October next year – probably around the same time as the Guernsey ban comes into force:-
“Prohibiting the sale of cigarettes from vending machines will prevent easy access to cigarettes by under-18s. Vending machines present an easy opportunity for young people to buy cigarettes. In 2008, vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes for 10% of young people aged 11 to 15 years who said they smoked. The latest data collected from English Local Authorities by LACORS on test purchasing from vending machines covers the 2008-09 period, and shows that illegal sales to under-18s were made from the majority (58%) of vending machines tested across England during this period.”
And for Phil, no I am not suggesting that smoking will be made illegal ‘any time soon’. Read my previous post properly. What I am saying is that the anti-smoking strategies now in operation here, in the UK and across much of Europe are bearing fruit. Fewer people are taking up smoking and more people are giving up. The figures are there.
As for your “infringement of civil liberties” if smoking were to be totally banned, I trust you hold the same view with regard to crack cocaine addicts – that their civil liberties are being infringed right now because the product they are addicted to is currently banned. You simply can’t have it both ways.
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Martino
Two points – firstly I am indeed an advocate of legalising all drugs – why should one person not be allowed access to their drug of choice whilst others are? By legalising everything it would allow a high degree of quality control, remove the criminality of supply, save us a fortune in customs officers/police/court time, and provide a massive amount in revenue which would more than offset the cost of dealing with those who develop problems (in the same way that it works for alcohol and tobacco).
Taking into account that legalisation is unlikely to happen though, it is entirely wrong to compare tobacco with crack. Tobacco is currently legal and used by billions of people. Telling them all they have to give up is slightly different to keeping crack cocaine on the illegal list don’t you think?
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Martino
That’s all very well and good you blurting your statistics but did you know that 90% of all statistics are rubbish?!!!!
How many children did they survery? Did they come from smoking families or non smoking families? How did they find out that 58% of vending machines tested made sales to under 18′s, the last time I looked you didn’t have to swipe your ID card before you use a vending machine!!!
All seems to me like more sensationalistic journalism and a whole pile of tosh!!!
I take it you have no vices then martino, don’t drink, drive a car, use aerosols, eat burgers, need i go on?
Banning vending machines will not stop people smoking full stop and i struggle to see how they encourage kids and adults alike to start, complete rubbish!!!
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Sorry Martino, just more tosh, and you are not really answering my question, which specifically asks for evidence that supports the link between marketing and vending machines.
Vending machines do not advertise, they just sell in places where under 18′s aren’t allowed.
All banning vending machines will do is make pubs and clubs sell tobacco products behind the bar, and put out of business a couple of firms. It won’t stop people smoking, or even starting smoking.
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Bemused, you’ve chosen a very good nom de plume because you’ve left me totally bemused by your bizarre posting.
What you yourself seem to be blurting is:- “I can’t refute the hard evidence you’ve put before me so all I’ve got to say for myself is that nearly all statistics are tosh and rubbish!”
I presume the 10 per cent of statistics are the ones that fit in with your own bemused worldview?
And yes, I do absolutely enjoy the odd glass of red, the occasional Guinness and the odd meaty burger but none of these (in moderation) are addictive killer poisons. Indeed they are positively life enhancing – in moderation.
Phil, there is no moral or ethical difference between banning tobacco and banning crack cocaine. If tobacco was introduced today as a new drug (and knowing what we know about it) there is no doubt that it would be put on the Class A list of banned substances. Historically it is legal but I would like to think that a few decades down the line its usage will have reached the point where it can be banned, with a small rump of seasoned users given registered addict status to help wean them off their habit. I repeat, though, that I am not talking about ‘any time soon’. It’s going to be a long, slow process with millions more casualties along the way.
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Martino
Where does it say in your post that the machines recruited new smokers? it doesn`t. So do you think this will stop the ones that are already smoking? or will they just find another way to buy them?.
I think its you that doesn`t get it. If that were the only way to buy them then ofcourse it may have an impact but it isn`t.
i`m would agree with you that they should be made illegal though.
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Martino needs to have a fag and chill out.
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Martino,
You need to calm down, spark up a fag, it will do you no harm!
Stress related illness probably kills just as many people as smoking related diseases.
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I see that Martino isn’t bothering to back up his argument that vending machines somehow turn non-smokers into smokers……
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Martino,
I completely disagree that tobacco would be Class A if released as a new drug today.
Firstly, it is quite obviously not as addictive as crack cocaine; it does not cost as much, and it does not (in most cases) lead to crime.
Secondly, and more importantly, it doesn’t affect the mental wellbeing of the user.
Say we legalised crack cocaine and the number of users increased to the same as tobacco. Millions of people would be walking around high, which would be inarguably more dangerous to society than people walking around smoking cigarettes!
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Martino
Absolute nonsense, unsurprisingly.
“A few decades down the line” they’ll still be plenty of people smoking, don’t worry about that. A combination of slick marketing (which will always exist in some shape or form) enjoyment of the cigarette itself, and the pure joy of sticking two fingers up at the righteous do-gooders who want them banned will ensure their survival.
I’m off for a Marlboro……..
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First Greg again, your unfounded allegation that I can’t be bothered to respond just goes to show what a presumptuous and arrogant person you must be. Some of us have non office bound work to do and so cannot respond instantly. This is my first opportunity today to reply so, for your benefit alone, I am going to repeat the clear evidence from the UK Health authorities that vending machines do HELP to turn non young smokers into smokers:-
“…Vending machines present an easy opportunity for young people to buy cigarettes. In 2008, vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes for 10% of young people aged 11 to 15 years who said they smoked. The latest data collected from English Local Authorities by LACORS on test purchasing from vending machines covers the 2008-09 period, and shows that illegal sales to under-18s were made from the majority (58%) of vending machines tested across England during this period.”
What clearer evidence do you need? Also, if the British Medical Association agrees this is the case, if the Cancer Research Campaign is saying this, if the British Heart Foundation is convinced this is hard fact, I think I would rather believe their research and science against the propaganda of the tobacco industry and its apologists.
As for my perceived need to chill out and have a fag, why on earth should I breathe poisonous fumes into my lungs and pay for the privilege? I’ll leave that to the slowly dwindling number of sad and deluded tobacco addicts out there.
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Martino
I know quite a lot of people who smoke and I would not say that any of them are either sad or deluded, they are addicted I grant you and most of them wished they didn’t smoke but as I have said before we all have human failings, even I suspect you Martino.
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Martino
I was being coy but obviously you’re lacking in being able to pick up on a hint of sarcasm as you are about listening to other people’s opinions without giving yourself a hernia!!!!
I don’t dispute that your ‘hard evidence’ is correct but it would seem a little bit more plausible if you had some background information to back it up, eg how many people were surveyed, from which area of the country were they from, how the hell can they know that a majority of cigarette machines sold cigarettes to under 18′s, need i go on!!!!
What I said before stands, 90% of all statistics are rubbish if they do not have the background information behind them to make them stand.
I’ve done a degree in research so i know!! maybe Martino you should re name yourself bemused as you yourself can only blurt statistics and not understand what you’re ranting about!!!
At the end of the day, people are alwaysa going to smoke as long as cigarettes can be bought.
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Let them smoke if they want to, and if they want to they will do so-
However I said exactly the same, then 8years ago I suddenly in the middle of the night had to call an ambulance, I couldn’t breathe -they came I got Oxygen, and 9 weeks in hospital.
Ever since I’ve use an inhaler 3-4 times a day.
It also brought on Asthma-Cols- bronchitis and a few other things.
But don’t listen to me.
But take a minute and google and type in
Asthma-cols- bronchitis and all those items that is possible to get.
So if you smoke enjoy it- then one day you wish you hadn’t. I know I laughed- now I weep.
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ok ban tabacco what will happen loads of grumpy people going to the dr for something that wont half cost some . how much tax is on a packet on fags ? where they going to put the tax on to regain what there lossing on sales of fags so non smokers end up getting taxed a bit more for something . o by the way yes i am a smoker i know its not advisable but one of my few pleasures in life.
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Martino
“As for my perceived need to chill out and have a fag, why on earth should I breathe poisonous fumes into my lungs and pay for the privilege? I’ll leave that to the slowly dwindling number of sad and deluded tobacco addicts out there”.
I think that is part of your gripe with all this mate, you are one of those that not only hates fags but also the people that smoke them?.
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@Martino “And yes, I do absolutely enjoy the odd glass of red, the occasional Guinness and the odd meaty burger but none of these (in moderation) are addictive killer poisons. Indeed they are positively life enhancing – in moderation.”
I appreciate your strong views on smoking old friend, but I wonder what your take is on this? It might surprise you to read this, but what you have said above is exactly what I think about the occasional Cuban cigar. I don’t remember smoking one yet this year but I enjoyed one at my wedding and I do enjoy the pleasure at other weddings and special occasions. I certainly wouldn’t take it up as a habit, but in moderation I find it a relaxing, life enhancing pleasure.
I know the health risks associated with constant smoking and I totally supported the smoking ban. I honestly don’t think that the level of smoking I undertake is any more detrimental to my health than the occasional glass of brandy after a meal. I’d be interested to know what are your thoughts are on this perspective?
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Another early ‘shift’, which is why I am late replying again, but let me try to draw a line under this by quoting the heading from the BMA web page on tobacco and health.
“Working towards a tobacco-free society” is what it says and that, to me, is what our government should be working towards as well, bit by bit, however long it takes.
Vending machines is part of it and yes, you’re right bemused, all surveys are flawed in some way, but all you need to do is look at the reaction from the tobacco industry. I don’t mean the vending machine suppliers who’ll have to do more coffee and soft drinks machines in future. I mean the Channel Islands tobacco importers and manufacturers’ association whose members did not raise their heads above the parapet but instead employed a slick pr person to do their opposing for them.
I think you can take it that if this association is against something then it’s got to be good for the health of the community. All they’re concerned about is their profits.
FInally for bcb, I do have friends who smoke and most of them hate the fact that they’re addicted to tobacco. I shouldn’t have said sad and deluded but I fire off the cuff at times (probably too many times) and that’s one of my own human failings.
One last thought for bemused. Yes, people are always going to smoke as long as cigarettes can be bought but the important thing is that the numbers are going down – and quite significantly in our part of the world. The vending machine ban must be seen as one important little measure that keeps that momentum going.
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For Paul,
Sorry, your post came up too late for me to answer in my previous one. Yes, a little of what you fancy does you good, whether it is a big Mac, a brandy, a Guernsey cream tea or a Cuban cigar.
I’ve got no problem with that and, as I said in my previous post, for me it’s all about working to reduce tobacco consumption and ultimately towards a tobacco free society. I hardly think that non habitual Havana puffers like yourself represent a worthwhile target!
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The futile efforts of the health services to cure the cancer riddled smoker cost far less than shelling out their pensions for years on end.
Why are we discouraging them? Let ‘em puff away, pay their tobacco duty and helpfully pop off at about 65……
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Martino
What gives you the right to determine what’s good for other people? You obviously consider yourself to be in some way superior to the masses, whereas others would call you an interfering do-gooder who ought to get on with their own life rather than poking their nose in where it isn’t welcome.
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As I’ve said before Phil, I’ve had to put up with more than two decades of smokers infringing on MY life and MY health – both at work and socially. Now it’s pay back time. No ifs or ands and butts – especially those awful butts.
At the same time I’m actually sympathetic to those who know they’re addicted to their cancer sticks and would like to give up. It’s a case of can’t stand the smoking but don’t hate the smokers – or at least I don’t hate those who are sensitive enough not to inflict their awful habit on the rest of us.
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Martino
You’re starting to sound quite irrational now – “pay back time” ?
Do you drive a car? I’m fed up with motorists polluting the air with their exhaust fumes, I wouldn’t suggest that cars are banned though.
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Cars pollute but our society would grind to a halt without them. They have a very positive use – even if we do drive them too much. There is nothing positive to be said about tobacco products. That’s the difference.
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Strange really, yet many of those long letter writers haven’t read Shakespeare.
For he states in plain terms.
“An honest tale speeds best, being plainly told”
MAY BE THEY THINK AS FOLLOWS.
“the more pity that fools may not speak wisely, what wise men do foolishly.”
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