Where is our justice?
Wednesday 14th July 2010, 2:30PM BST.
Accompanied by his mother and stepfather, ‘John’ went to St James Chambers to plead – unsuccessfully – for his day in court. (Picture by Adrian Miller, which has been altered digitally to protect identities, 0997829)
A MOTHER says her family has been denied justice after prosecutors refused to charge her former husband with sexually abusing their young son.
The woman is demanding that the authorities take her ex-husband to court.
Despite police and Law Officer involvement and similar allegations almost a decade ago, there is no prospect of action being taken.
What has now changed is that youngster, who was four when the abuse allegedly occurred, has started to grow up and the realisation of its importance has suddenly struck him.
A spokesman for the Law Officers has said that, although they had looked into the matter again, it cannot be taken to court again because of a lack of substantial new evidence.
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Typical of guernsey to try. And brush this sort of thing under the carpet
now if this guy had stolen somthing or imported drugs he would be back in court faster could imagine
well he HAS [allegedly] stolen something…a young boys Innocence
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There is something seriously wrong with the law and justice system in Guernsey. Crimes have been committed but for some bizarre reason Guernsey does nothing about them. This family are not alone in there quest for justice, think about the dignitas case recently, that I seem to remember paled into insignificance The Press I seem to remember could only get “no comment” and I have been informed by police that they are unable to extract any statements. I wish you well with your quest for justice and maybe the wider media would be interested.
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Justice always gets served in Guernsey……
Yeah right!!
It will be interesting to see if anyone tries to make excuses for this!
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Picture the scene in Court
Boy,now aged 14. ” Ten years ago my dad did rude things to me”
Dad. ” No I didn’t”
Magistrate.” Bring in the witnesses”
Prosecutor. ” There are no witnesses”
Verdict ?????
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C Thomas & frenchpig
What is under the carpet? should we prosecute everyone for any alleged offence that after review there is insufficient evidence to in the view of prosecutors to bring a conviction?
For me what is also of concern is the picture that was digitally enhanced as only opens up the questions..is that “X and his mum”. There was no need or value for a picture and by doing so will some innocent divorced father be wrongly accused, beaten up by vigilante’s? But then, GP will have their next story…
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There’s nothing like an emotive story like this to sharpen up those pitch forks.
I was looking at facebook last night and there was comment after comment about how this father should be strung from the rafters, how sickening it all is, disgusting… it goes on.
The majority of those posters were mothers so I can understand their initial outrage and the idea of something like that also sickens me. However, we do live in a world where there is such a thing as evidence and being innocent until proven guilty.
I have a friend who went through a very similar scenario. It wasn’t in Guernsey though. In short he was a teacher who spurned the advances of a lovelorn student and she got pi*sed off. Needless to say it was hell for him. He very nearly lost his job (as it is he didn’t feel he could work in that school and had serious thoughts about leaving teaching) he had disgusting hate emails and people spitting on him in the street. Luckily the girl came to her senses and admitted to making the whole thing up but it very nearly ruined him and his family. There also was no evidence to support her story (and by the pressure put on her by the police she finally broke and admitted).
We don’t have the facts of the case, we have no idea what the alleged offense was (albeit it was sexual), what the investigation report found, the fathers statement etc etc and nothing has changed within these last 10 years. There’s no new evidence, no new witnesses therefore cases cannot be re-opened. That’s not Guernsey. That’s the WORLD. The ONLY thing that can be questioned is if they did a good enough job in the first place, just because the findings did not result in a prosecution does not mean that the decision was wrong though.
Would you all think the same way if it was someone coming back into the courts saying “but he DID punch me 10yrs ago”. No you wouldn’t. It’s because of the nature of the case which mirrored in the opinions here means that if you are accused then you must be guilty. Thank god we DO have a judicial system otherwise those pitchforks would be in plain sight.
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I think its great that we have a judicial system that on the surface appears to have completely disregarded these new allegations!
I also think its great that we have a judicial system that says to potential offenders, “dont worry, its your word against theirs, theres no evidence and you are the adult”
Wonderful!
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There is no new allegations that’s the point. No new evidence, no new witnesses, no new allegations. It’s the same allegation from 10yrs ago.
So are we guilty until proven innocent now?
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No Lynnie
Get off your pitchfork high horse and try to think of the bigger picture, what does this say to potential offenders??
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Is that all you’ve got Lynnie??
The oldest chesnut around “guilty until proven innocent”!!!
I’m glad that you have so much faith in an increasingly flawed justice system, as you say, that not Guernsey, thats the world.
Lets hope that you never fall foul of its vagaries!!
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Blimey Lynnie
Thats 2 threads now where you are championing the accused.
I dont think anyone is asking for blood, just a little reality, yes there are no new accusations, but in my opinion the fact that a 14 year old boy is now saying he’s old enough to realise the ramifications of whats alledgedly happened to him, I think that it at least warrants a low key investigation.
Not just to be swept under the carpet.
I expect you to be a fully paid up member of a certain new high proflie facebook group the way you champion the accused/ and or guilty!
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Dave – without any information on the case, without knowing the full allegations you’ve already written off this guy that he must have done it and potential offenders are overjoyed because “someone” got away with it.
I have no idea about the facts of this case I was purely giving another perspective on the whole scenario as people (quite often on here!) are sometimes too quick to judge.
All I am stating is that an ‘allegation’ does not automatically mean guilt.
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Dave Haslam & Steve-O
The kindest thing I can say about your posts is that you are letting your heart rule your head
If that case went to Court without a guilty plea it would be thrown out in two minutes
Dad would be OFFICIALLY found not guilty leaving the boy in further distress
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Ray
I cant speak for Steve but I’m not actually saying that the case should go to court, but it does appear that hands are being washed of this without a serious investigation.
This is only my interpretation of it, but from what I’m led to beleive is kind of how it went.
Any new evidence???
No
Get rid of it then!
Lynnie, you are putting words in my mouth, I’m not writing anyone off, my reply to Ray sums up what I think should happen and I’m led to beleive hasnt.
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Ormerman – If you are suggesting the (now taken down) Raoul Moat page then don’t be so ridiculous, I would never affiliate myself with such a group. I have also never said anything that would make anyone think that. I find that personally insulting (and quite frankly a cheap shot) and would ask that you keep your opinions factual rather than a personal attack against another poster.
I am not championing anyone. I was putting across my opinion of why I think that the particular decision (in this story) was taken.
Its part of my job to look at things pragmatically and not to (quote Ray) let my heart rule my head. Therefore my opinion (and it is just that) is based on facts, evidence, process and procedures and not speculations.
For all we know a low key investigation DID take place. We the public wouldn’t know either way. We know a full investigation took place when the allegation was made 10yrs prior.
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Dave I do understand what you’re saying but think about it.
What would the investigation be?
If they stated that there is no new evidence and there are no witnesses what can they do? They can question the father (which they must have, which is the case with any allegations made against someone and I presume he said he didn’t do it) but without putting anyone’s animosity at jeopardy that’s all they can do without evidence to the contrary. They can’t question the father’s friends/close relatives/previous employers/new girlfriend or wife. They can’t question the boy’s school teachers /friends/other relatives so that’s it unfortunately. I agree with Ray, it would be a lot harder to take for the boy and his family if this did go to court and a not guilty verdict was given. You also then have the joy of having everyone know it’s you.
I have to complete investigations all the time sometimes of a very sensitive nature. Unfortunately sometimes the investigation comes to a dead end. At times we can make decisions in regards to previous history however is that fair? Granted I deal with people’s employment and not incidents of this nature but they are sometimes quite difficult and you do have to devoid yourself of emotion.
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Come to Sunny Guernsey…
Where if you cover up your tracks well enough, we wont bat an eyelid.
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Lynnie
It wasnt a personal snipe, it was merely a comment based on observation of your posting.
If I was going to personally attck you, then i assure you, I’d be far more direct with my words.
Plus that page is back up again now!!
Dont be so sensitive!! You could always sue me for defamtion of character, but I doubt you’d get anywhere ;-p
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Omerman – you were trying to tarnish my posts and make yourself look witty by making ridiculous accusations that I am affiliated with a pro murderer’s facebook page. If that’s not a personal insult I don’t know what is.
The mere suggestion of it offends me and you should have enough common sense to keep your postings and comments to the subject on hand rather than speculation about the poster.
If I indeed thought that my reputation would be tarnished by such a ridiculous comment then perhaps I would sue you but I’m sure people on here would see your comment for what it was. A cheap poorly aimed shot.
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Lynnie
You can imagine what you want out of my posting, but I assure you, you are not even close. Although I take it as a compliment that my posting attracts so much of your attention.
But I’ll refer you back to the first comment in the last paragraph of my previous post.
Any offense taken was not intended, but then again, I find HR types often zero in on spurious aspects of things……
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I’ve read the above posts with interest. Our system of criminal justice is based upon the premise that guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. That is for a reason. Miscarriages of justice can be terribly difficult to put right. I know the majority of you, based upon my understanding of your posts, will think ‘what about justice for the child’ and quite rightly so but there is little cogent evidence avaialble. It reads to me like this child has suffered at the hands of someone he should be able to trust and he has been robbed of that, but we have the privilege (yes, I hear you all suck your breath in ) to live in a jurisdiction where there must be clear evidence before someone is punished and not by vigilantes. Remember, the Courts establish guilt before passing sentance and not the other way around. I hope the child receives the professional help that will assist him, I have no doubt his family are already doing all that they can.
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Lynnie
I posted earlier on, but for whatever reason its never appeared.
The crux was that we’d have to agree to disagree.
I’m not saying that it should go back to court, but I think that another investigation, no matter what they do, whether they sit on their backsides for 6 months, the mere threat of investigation and the whole “this is a serious allegation, we are at least going to investigate it” message that it would generate.
For me Its more about the message that it sends out to potential offender than this actual case per se. All thats said at the moment is that we are a bit of a soft touch.
Also, I think Ormerman may be trolling you!!
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Omerman I quote you;
“I expect you to be a fully paid up member of a certain new high proflie facebook group the way you champion the accused/ and or guilty!”
And
“Plus that (re Raoul Moat) page is back up again now!!”
You may see that as me being overly sensitive I see it as being a distasteful accusation. I thought you were an intelligent individual who could hold a debate without resorting to this sort of depravity. Obviously I was wrong.
If my interpretation was incorrect please enlighten me as to what you are alluding to.
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Lynnie
You are right….
You are being over sensitive.
You interpreted it as an attack, I intended it as a tongue in cheek remark which was designed to use a current national scandal and real front page news and parallel it with your views to poke fun at you as being pro-criminal.
It was a satirical way of making what I beleive to be a interesting point, but you have sinced travelled too far down the road to convince me your views are otherwise, so I wouldnt bother trying.
Maybe it was a little bit too laced with satire which I suppose can often be interpreted by the do-gooder brigade as personal slights, I thought you would have risen above that lowest common demoninator enclave.
Dave Haslam
No Comment!
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I think you’re probably right Dave, I must not try to rise to it however there’s a distinct lack of “debates” happening at work and I feel I need to keep my edge.
I know neither of us are to going to convince the other. We’re both viewing the issue from different perspectives and I do understand your argument.
At the end of the day I hope this boy and his family can find resolution and move on from this matter. Don’t get me wrong I’m all for fighting your corner but sometimes there’s only so much you can do and by continuing with it who knows if it’s bringing more distress.
I think EMZ has explained what I was attempting to in a much more articulate way.
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There is obviously more to this than meets the eye. We always think we know what is going on in court matters, but the truth of it is that we don’t. The mother “appears” “allegedly” (who knows?) about this for a long time, therefore why bring this up now? My cynical mind wonders if there is some sort of fight for compensation? Again – we don’t know do we? I just hope this young kid is not being used by both parents.
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Being of a curious nature I have spoken
to several people in blue and lawyers .
It would appear that in guernsey
ANY child
under the age of 6 ( an extremely savvy
one at that) would not be put in the dock
to face his/her alleged abuser. Be it in
person or via a video link as it would be
deemed to traumatic or a sustained form
of abuse to ask the child questions .
So Basicaly if there is Not any physical
Evidence (DNA) then the abuser will
be questioned and if they play the
” no comment game ” they will Walk !
That’s it .. Plain and simple.
No gray area’s.
One Fact for you to chew over before I
sign off … If you are De Arrested on a
charge after say upto 72 hours on Any
alleged offence …that’s it..end of story
and basicaly a get out of jail card Free
to wave any time . There has to be New
Evidence to be questioned again.
My advocate has informed me that
because I was questioned on this matter
and played ” no comment ” I will do the same
again. And that’s it . Game over !
Way to go guernsey !
and not charged
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C Thomas….. don’t believe you. Flamer.
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i have a very uneasy feeling about the way this boy has had his experience laid bare by the guernsey press. depsite their editorial i hope they know what they’re doing. i worry that this boy is being used by all the interested parties one way or another, all with various agendas and axes. i also wonder that even if the alleged accused is found guilty that would bring an end to the boy’s problems? it might not, and he would still need profesional counselling – so maybe that should be a priority now. if a court case means one version against another version with no other evidence, that court case may result in a not-guilty verdit and how more damaging might that be to the boy? a lot of care is needed here – the boy needs wise and independent counsel.
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i was raped by a 53 man when i was 13 years old an he never got done he was sent to a place in wales an has never been seen again that was no justice for me they had everdince but he got away with it then i found out that he had raped 15 girls an one was his daughter an the other was his grandaughter how sick well i think the courts need to sort it out
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Guernsey has a history of turning a blind eye to child abuse and a very bizarre idea of what punishment fits what crime, so this decision comes as no surprise to me at all.
Some years ago, a seasoned english social worker was brought into the island to work with children. She was so utterly appalled and sickened by the sheer amount and level of abuse, the sometimes ‘well placed/known’ people who were the perpetrators, and, more importantly, the powers that be consistently blocking her from taking any such cases (with solid evidence) to court, that she left the island…..
welcome to Guernsey, where those who do 26 in a 25mph zone once get caught and prosecuted, average stan has a spliff in the comfort of his own home and gets sent to prison for a couple of years, but where Kev’s daily use the islands roads like their personal racetrack unhindered, and kiddy fiddlers (like the private school teacher proven guilty some years ago), do as they please, remain unpunished, and are allowed (as in his case) to carry on with his plans to move to Spain, as the judge deemed he had ‘suffered enough already’….
fair and just, this island’s judicial system is NOT.
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Scarlett
Excellent excellent post.
Its a shame nothing will get done about it though until something really bad (more than likely appalling) happens.
Also, is Average Stan and relation to Average Joe.
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Why thank you, Dave, and yes…a distant cousin, I believe..;0)
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Brilliant post Scarlett, couldn’t have explained it better myself.
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no one names names on their posts, presumably because they cannot defend their anonymous allegations if challenged with libel or slander by any ‘name’. so all the handwringing and ranting serves no purpose? this does not help in any way to gain redress for abuse victims. i am not sure what will, but it needs someone with cool, rational and determined thinking. any takers in our legal or social advocate classes?
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i just wonder that if it was your child who was on sedatives on a daily basis and waking up most days reliving the abuse that he went through would you be having these petty arguments between yourselfs!!!! i hope not .the press article was to try and help the case and let the boy have a fair trial that every one deserves who gives the law officers the right to play god with a young boys life let it go to court and let a jury decide guilty or not . …. just remeber this person (the abuser could be coming into your home taking pictures off your children and you wouldnt no)and yes he is getting independent counselling but that wont bring his childhood back
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Scarlett
Brilliant post and how I agree with you! You end it
‘…fair and just, this island’s judicial system is NOT…’
That is so true but it will NEVER change while Gurnsey is remains in the medieval mode of ‘droit de seigneur is everything and all peasants are revolting.’
Until the Island admits that we live in the 21st century where humanitarian attitudes have moved on from the feudal serfs and seigneurs lifestyle then fairness and justice will not get much of a look-in.
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@Blah It appears that rational and determined thinkers tend to be the minority on here. You had Ray, Lynnie and EMZ put another side on the story and look how they are responded to. You get a sensitive issue such as this one and everyone assumes that it would be much better to drag this through the courts, abandone the identity of both parties where it will then more than likely with the information and lack of evidence that is availble be awarded a Not Guilty verdict. No one is considering the welfare of the boy, just that the “bad guy” doesn’t get away with it.
I heard an interesting story on the radio this morning. In the UK a victim of sexual abuse received no letters when an owner of a stolen lawn mower received 30 letters offering him counselling. And Guernsey needs shaking up?
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Blah. I hear what you’re saying, but…
I guess I could say that taking this issue to ‘legal and social advocate classes’ may be, how can I say, ‘taking coals to Newcastle…?’ (sorry, can’t think of anything suitably vague, printable, yet to the point).
Trust me, I would love to ‘name names’, but as you said, I know and you know that they won’t get printed here (let alone, prosecuted) even with a raft of evidence, so there’s little to no point even trying.
Sad, but true.
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So just because the UK is worse means we can forget about Guernsey does it??
Plus I’m not really getting where you are coming from on the whole “look how badly you are treated” style comment! (Although ironically you dont feel that same sentiment could apply to the family in this case! But a few comments on an internet forum you dont agree with and wham, out comes the “mistreatment alert”!!!).
There appears to be an increasing tendancy on here to question other peoples ettiquete if their opinion disagrees with your own.
There is only really Ormerman who’s out and out attacked your “rational and determined thinking brigade”. But you could also argue that loaded comments such as yours, could be considered slights against the people on the other side of the fence.
Pot…. Kettle etc!
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Dear Sarnia Expat if you don’t believe what i say about the de arrest comment and being able to say ” i was released on this charge after you questioned me … there for i cannot be questioned on the matter again without new evidence ” Go ask a lawyer or policeman.
It’s true.
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Well at least social services dept are getting thier act together. i see in the press they are appointing a sexual abuse therapist in the next three monthes.
Altho one concern i have is people on the schedule 1 offenders list,
There is one living in Close proximity to the
new school thats been built, and the school when informed , said they had no idea he was living so close , More to the point he wasn’t even on thier Radar !
The authorities pass the laws , they have a law for listing offenders , but Why would they not inform a school that a convicted internet groomer with a penchant for digital images is living within 3 minutes walking distance of the school grounds ?
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Dave Haslam
I sympathise with your post but unfortunately Guerns believe they are absolutely perfect so ANY criticism is totally unacceptable and has to be deflected.
The UK is always the bad boy/girl but since islanders hate the UK so much why does Guernsey cling to it like an unwanted limpet?
Like you I don’t understand where the Guerns are coming from either. Some deep dark place in the blue lagoon I expect.
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Could those who are complaining at the lack of a charge, would you please re-post, explaining exactly what you would if you were the police or law officers, or how you think the judicial system should be changed.
Lots of people are moaning, but I am yet to read one credible solution.
A charge requires evidence, a conviction requires a stronger level of evidence. Are you suggesting we lower the threshold from “Beyond all reasonable doubt”?
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Lynnie Can I just say I like what you are saying what you are saying Innocent until proven guilty
YES why are others ready to hang others. It is sad if it did happen to this little boy but I do not think printing it in the paper will help at all. Ormerman as this case has come up again im sure the Police and the Law officers have been over this again with the person involved Im sure the Law officers cant just say no will not take this any further do you?? I beleive the family need help
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So In essence, just brush it under the carpet then, happy days, leaving the route open for it to continue to happen.
Truth Man
Off the top of my head as a starter for 10. Maybe support for a civil case style prosecution. Like they have in the US. I beleive a civil case is “balance of probabilities” versus “beyond all reasonable doubt”, the problem is, with snivelling defence lawyers looking for every available nook and cranny and any loophole, it becomes very difficult to prosecute anyone beyond all reasonable doubt in a case such as this (and frankly in most cases). Which is probably why the law officers have dismissed it out of hand.
So if we are happy with the current system, then by all means let it continue, and meanwhile children will continue to be abused, whilst we all go home happy (and ignorant) that at least we’re ok.
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Why is it the most revolting crimes are excused by those in power?
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Let us think laterally on this one.
Some children are terribly abused and are too frightened to say anything at the time.
Others may make up allegations out of spite or mischief.
How to tell the truth of the matter.
If there is a legal and social climate in which a child feels able to tell someone of the abuse at the time at which it happens to them then forensic science may be able to determine what is the truth.
But a society which does not have a fair justice system, and where habeas corpus is shunned, is unlikely ever to provide either the means or the security for a terrified child to complain of abuse.
Spreading such stories all over the Press is not helpful, and is likely to titillate unsavoury groups of people, but at present there seem to be few alternatives for trying to get something done.
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I would like to agree with PC I agree there is no value for a picture to be put into the paper. I beleive that is there is no evidence when this boy was for and now there is still no evidence this man the X must be innocent. Maybe something has upset the mother and her new husband? If now they are happy in there lives then get on with looking after this little boy who is hurting. Dont drag this little boy through the papers.
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Coyote, I beleive you when you say it is not helpful and likely to unsavoury groups to spread this across the press.Which is why I find it hard to understand as this is not helping this little boy.Like I have said time and time again if there is no evidence when he was 4 why drag it through the papers. Would you if it happened to your child?
Cause things can be done behind the scenes to help this boy.
It has opened a can of worms and upsetting allot of people that this has happened to in the past.
This boy yes does need help but not in the press.
That’s what I feel.
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Sorry but no evidence, no past convictions, no witnesses only one statement (from 10yrs ago when the child in question was 4 years old) against another. Even the “balance of probabilities” wouldn’t win in this case.
I disagree with the statement that it’s being swept under the carpet. If there was any chance of a conviction it would go to court. These things have done in the past.
I fully agree with audits/reviews at regular intervals to ensure correct procedures are being followed and that the procedures are correct.
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Lynnie You hit the nail on the head with your last comment NO EVIDENCE I feel myself maybe that the mother is trying to make something out of this and this poor little boy.I don’t know how or why there marrage broke up and I dont want to but I think dragging a young boy through all this is not helping this could be all done behind close doors.
Can I say to C thomas the new school is built right next to a prison???? say no more.
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Disagreeing with the fact that this is clearly being swept under the carpet just paves the way for less questions and more offenses to be swept under the carpet in the future.
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2 for sarah here ,
the school is next to a prison correct , but any with tendancies to abuse cant get out.
And just what has this womans marraige got to do with all this ?
are you suggesting she made all this up for the fun of it?.
According to the articles the police BELIEVE the boys accounts of the abuse he endured.
It basicaly come down to this , if some one Abuses a child under 6 and no physical evidance is left at the scene the police and law system Will Not take it to court, it will be deemed too Distressing for a young child to be cross examined, End of..not like that in the uk tho.
The reason these parants went to the press is to bring it all to the front to let the Public ask the Authorities what the hell is going on.
Its the sexual Abuse allegations, this guy HAS sexual abuse conviction and distribution of child porn under his belt,
It would be interesting to find out just How Many cases of this nature the law officers have not proceeeded on. as chatting to several people in the know, it would Raise the hairs on your neck if it were to be made public.
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I did not say the ex was making it up. I just feel it should not of gone to the press thats all.
I hope this little boy finds help. Yes Im sure how many cases of this nature would raise the hairs on our necks.Im glad I don’t know what goes on as most of us would not sleep at night.
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c thomas
Can I just say I don’t beleive that the police would not be aloud to say weather they beleive the boys story or not? Hope the boys ok.
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It seems very coincidental that we now have information regarding to paedophilia for the accused. I doubt very much c.thomas that you are involved in the Law Offices or have any inside information on this case therefore I can deduce that this has come from someone who knew someone who knew someone and so on.
The testimony of a 4yr old can be used in court; however, many judges do not allow it. This is the current practice in the UK. The reason why is because the testimony cannot be fully relied upon. There are, unfortunately, too many variables that can go wrong. Mummy is annoyed with Daddy and plants something for little Jimmy to say. This happens a lot more than people think. The child does not understand right from wrong, in most cases does not understand the full impact of what is being said. There is also the argument that by cross examining the witness (as the defendant will want to do) can cause the child distress.
What is also going against this lad is that fact that it has been 10 years. The likelihood of him remembering is slim at best, not impossible but slim.
The boy’s account of events from 10 years ago is not strong enough to secure a guilty conviction. Irrelevant that it’s a Guernsey court, no court would put this through.
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ahh excellent, some one in the know unmasks themselves.
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I’m sorry c.thomas your point eludes me. Would you be so kind?
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