Flybe ‘would have paid millions’, now it may sue
Friday 16th July 2010, 11:30AM BST.
FLYBE is threatening legal action against the States if it does not open up the bidding process for Aurigny.
And its chief commercial officer announced that it was prepared to pay ‘millions’ for the loss-making airline Blue Islands has agreed a deal in principle with Treasury and Resources that would see the States paid only when the new merged airline made a profit while also securing the future of the vital Gatwick slots.
Mike Rutter (pictured) said Flybe welcomed the decision to seek a private sector solution for ‘the Aurigny problem’ but it was deeply concerned with the way the transaction was put together.
He believes Flybe has been the victim of discrimination and has demanded that Treasury open up the process to allow ‘any airline, including Flybe, to bid’.
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And why would Flybe want to pay millions for a loss making airline? To remove a competitor or out of love and affection for the people of the Bailiwick?
Come on Deputies – kick this one into the long grass.
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Maybe Flybe should gaze into their own navel before getting upset about being discriminated against. I feel I’m discriminated against every time I fly with them….I pay a premium for poor service, cancelled/postponed flights, hidden charges, high prices on any route where they have a monopoly etc…and all the while, they parade themselves as low cost champions of the people whilst inventing new ways to empty your pocket and degrade your travelling experience!
if Guernsey ends up depending on them then we may as well close the airport and build another harbour.
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Don’t let flymaybe buy Aurigny!!
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Well they gave away Guernsey Telecoms, a monopoly to Condor – do you really expect this to turn out right for Guernsey residents? Not a chance.
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Please, do not confine me to this Island for life…I refuse to fly with Flybe, their service is hurrendous, every time I’ve had the misfortune to fly with them there’s been some issue or another….!!!!!!!!
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Entrusting our precious Gatwick slots to Flybe would be like letting a pack of wolves look after a family’s pet rabbit with the promise that the bunny would be eternally safe in their hands.
Remember the way Flybe effectively lost us the Paris/Beauvais service operated by Blue Islands until a few years ago? Flybe got the go ahead for a direct Guernsey-Paris service of their own, which resulted in Blue Islands naturally pulling the plug on Paris/Beauvais, and when the time came Flymaybe decided not to operate to Paris, leaving us with nothing.
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The reason the States bought Aurigny was because they did not want the gatwick slots in the hands of just one airline incase they decided to pull out of Guernsey. That is probably why all of Flybe’s bids were rejected as it would’ve led to the same situation.
I’m fairly certain the States can sell Aurigny to whoever they damn well like so I’m not sure a legal challenge will get them anywhere.
Also if there is no competition on the route then the ticket cost will skyrocket! (on a related note- wait for the price of a ticket to jersey to go through the roof when Blue Islands take over!)
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well said Carts. Incinerator or FlyBe as in my view they have similar popularity over here.
What is the first thing they will do? Use their current Gatwick landing slots on other routes as the obtained Aurigny landing slots will be still States controlled therefore NO Competition, less flights and HIGH prices. Take Guernsey States to court you take your customers to court. Blue Islands will give them REAL Commercial competition and they know they can not compete. FLYBE will probably charge on passanger weight next.
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Flybe are better than Blue Islands… end of
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But Aurigny top them both, so don’t sell and stay as they are
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Flybes service is so poor because they cancel or delay flights when there aren’t enough passengers on that flight,or they have somewhere else they can use the plane for more profit.I know somebody who had to get to the north of England for an interview the next day,they put her on a plane to Gatwick because they had cancelled her flight to Birmingham.They refused her laptop as hand luggage and assured her it would be ok in the hold,when she got it back 3 days later it was badly damaged and Flybe said they were not responsible for damage to any luggage.She also had to get a train from Gatwick which cost her more than her plane ticket had.
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I am more than a little nervous at the prospect of Flybe buying the only decent airline in the island. If possible I never fly with flybe…. they are rip off merchants who don’t think twice about charging extortionate fares and charging a rediculous fee for taking baggage.
I am a young(ish) mum and travelling off the island with flybe is just far too expensive.
What does it mean for the islanders if we lose Aurigny to either blue islands or Flybe. Will routes be cancelled, will fares be increased, will baggage be charged and most importantly will anyone be able to afford to get off the island at all?
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Hi
Flybe is boosting, teaming up with air france KLM.
Blue islands tried a paris link but retreated at the first sign of competition. does not give me a good financial stamina.
Flybe is the best option if we want to keep our island attractive for visitors and more important for business. a connection with a hub like gatwick and southampton is essential, this is not offered by blue islands…sorry to say but it is the truth. the experiment of the states has failed, millions could have been used on roads, safe pedestrian paths (for children, disabled etc) now it’s gone to a non performing airline and will never come back. c’mon guernsey think as if your island is part of the world and not a little sub of bankrupt england!!
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James,
Aurigny are the competitors to flybe so selling to Flybe means NO Competition on important routes. Selling to Blue Islands means they can compete against Flybe and Flybe is still doing what is does today. The Flybe HUB system is not impacted whatsoever unless they throw their toy planes out of their prams and say they do not want to play in the Channel Islands. Selling to FLYBE means they could use their existing Gatwick slots on more profitable routes as why would they run to 7am services to London?
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Flybe pricing is good (if you book well in advance) and I have never had an issue with the service.
If you had ryanair or easyjet as an alternative as we do on the mainand then you will experience a poor airline. Unfourtunaley airlines are hit hard by the Government taxes and have had a hard few years hence why BA is suffering and looking at Flybe’s business model as an example of an airline that has had to adapt to survive and grow. Flybe was stareted in Jersey and would never withdraw servcies to the islands.There are ways around higher charges for bags etc people just need to get switched on and be alittle more web savy…
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Possible sale of Aurigny
Quote from press release
Treasury & Resources Minister, Deputy Charles Parkinson said: “in our view it is not the
job of government to own an airline particularly where a private sector option exists.Government should simply be there to ensure that transport policies have the island’s interests at heart. These include the protection of our lifeline routes”. End Quote
My view is, that in the past our government has been singularly unable to “ensure that transport policies have the island’s interests at heart”. In fact the opposite is true, as we have received numerous assurances in the past from a number of airlines that they were committed to Guernsey, only to see them disappear over the horizon a short time later. So it is not in our power to give any assurances on policy when that policy is dependant on privately owned companies.
The only way that Guernsey can have any guarantee over its air links, is by keeping control of some of them ourselves. It is the security that our people need. In the same manner in an ever increasing hostile world, we have had to make our own provision for the security of our fuel deliveries.
It is true our airline does make a loss and we subsidise it to keep it afloat but we also subsidise the buses which in the scheme of things we might be able to live without. We can’t, I would suggest, live without our air links. This merger will create an unwelcome monopoly on inter-island routes, which I don’t think will help one jot with the price of fares, as they will inevitably rise when people have no other option. Making it one of the most expensive pieces of water to cross in the world.
We should also not loose sight of the fact that Aurigny is a local company which is dearly loved by the Guernsey people and we should not destroy this company, solely on the alter of the bottom line of a balance sheet. Please don’t turn this into another Guernsey Telecom.
My other concern is Anglo Normandy Engineering, What happens to that company and the highly skilled aero engineers who work for it?
Finally if the Airline needs new management then fine and while I have no issues with Mr Coates or Blue Islands as an airline. I will oppose this acquisition purely on the grounds of Air link security for our people. We have full control now and we should keep full control because of the lessons and false promises we have had many times in the past.
Dave Jones
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I Le Page – to balance out your story a member of my family suffered an injury which meant she couldn’t fly to Guernsey; Flybe told her she can rebook both her and her (fit and healthy) husband’s flights at any point in the next 11 months without charge. You can’t say fairer than that. Sure, Aurigny would probably do the same but it just goes to show that you can’t judge an airline on people’s horror stories as for every horror story there are hundreds of perfectly good experiences – you just never hear about them because generally we all prefer to complain than compliment.
I also agree with Mike K – I’ve flown with both Flybe and Aurigny to different destinations but I cannot remember a competitive flight where Aurigny have beaten Flybe for price – like Mike says it’s all about being a bit savvy on the web and booking early. However I don’t agree with his statement that Flybe would never leave the islands – like any business they will always act in their own interests first.
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Well after reading all the posts on this and others to do with Guernsey and Flybe, B Islands, Aurigny. All I can say is Flybe do the decent thing and pull out of Guernsey and leave the Guernsey residents to their aurigny and let them keep ploughing money in to it as it will be there only option. There all so clever and deserve to be carried by this debt ridden carrier. Then watch them come crying to you with their tails between there legs to ‘please come back we didnt mean it’ and just say NO when they do! Two words to describe the petulant drivel above = [pathetic & childish]
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Diddumms to flybe. At the first sniff that someone else might prevent them from having it all their own way they threaten to go wailing and crying to the courts. The airline industry is a dirty and comptetitive business – anyone remember BA putting Laker out of business? BA trying to push Virgin Atlantic over the edge? They got caught on both counts in the end – it’s not pretty business but it is the way it is. I think it is good news for Guernsey that Blue Islands gets first bite at the cherry. I wouldn’t trust flybe as far as I could throw one of their planes. They don’t deserve the route and we need to keep competition on the Gatwick and Manchester routes. End of. Flybe stop whinging and provide a better and more cost effective service if you want to win more business. Stop moaning that you can’t buy your way to a monopoly. We have heard it all before and don’t buy it. Tough – the States can – and should – sell to whoever they see fit. Put your teddies back in your pram and run your airline a bit better instead.
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“Paid millions”. Flybe may be flavor of the month now but look back and you will see countless airlines were and where are they now, Skyways, Dan air, BUA, BKS, Guernsey airways, Buzz, British Caledonian to mention a few, some of these flew to the channel islands. So don’t be surprised to see the flavor’s of the month 2010 go the same way as the above did. Look up “Defunct airlines of the United Kingdom” on the internet. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
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Mr Hall
I would add Blue Island to your list.
Or is Blue Island somehow exempt from the possibility of failure?
Do let uus know.
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Does anyone really believe that Fly(may)be would actually hand over ‘millions’ for a route which by their own admission is unprofitable?
Likewise for those people who are worried about the loss of the Aurigny brand, do you seriously think Flybe would keep the differentiation?
Wake up to reality guys, Blue Islands have shown their commitment to the islands as a whole, and through their other business links continue to show commitment to Guernsey. It is likely therefore that the same commitment will carry on if they are successful in their bid to take over Aurigny.
From the reports we read, BI will allow the States of Guernsey to keep control of the slots at Gatwick, can you see Flybe agreeing to this?
Use your brains people, and look at the past history of how Flybe have treated us!
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Every time I read a story about Flybe there’s seems to be am implicit threat to sue the States; Aurigy purchase, Aurigny Firefighters dispute and now Aurigny sale.
Would you want Aurigny in the hands of a company with that kind of apparent corporate petulance?
Knowing nothing about the airline industry and purely on a human level – I’d take DC over FB any day of the week.
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Anybody who thinks that the present product offered by Blue Islands will be the same after they have eliminated Aurigny as a competitor is dreaming. Friday’s front page article states: “Auriny lost £1.5m in 2008 and was set to record a similar deficit last year. Mr Coates admitted that Blue Islands was losing similar sums but he maintained the overall financial position of the airline was strong.” Let’s put some perspective on that: In 2009 Aurigny carried appx 432000 passengers, that makes their losses £3.47 per passenger, not a great deal in one of the worst years in aviation history, and something that could be solved with a relatively small increase in average prices to the UK, where the majority of Aurigny’s passengers travel. In 2009 Blue Islands carried appx 146000 passengers, that makes their losses £10.27 per passenger. A great deal by any measure, and given that the vast majority of Blue Islands passengers travel on inter island flights, it would take a massive % incresase in fares, or here’s the important bit, a huge reduction in costs, or more likely both, to achieve profitability. So you might like the Blue Islands’ of today’s free ticket changes, free lounges, free busses, free drinks, unlimited luggage etc., but if this sale goes ahead you’ll be paying for these frills soon enough, and guess what, you won’t have a choice. Mr Coates didn’t get himself on the Sunday Times rich list by the long term selling of vitamins at a price lower than they cost to produce, and he won’t sell his airline product for long at a price lower than it costs to produce. So enjoy it while you can and recognise that your getting something for a lot less than it costs to produce.
Blue Islands’ track record is one of huge losses, and a long trail of terminated routes. What on earth makes anybody think they can run a decent PROFITABLE airline?
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As far as I am concerned Aurigny is not for sale.
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I think its Blue Islands thats only worth a £1,they make a loss,have very old planes and the Jetstreams are expensive to run.They are after Aurignys routes,new planes and the engineering operation.Blue Island just want to get their planes done on the cheap,but safety can not be had on the cheap.As for Flybe dont even go there!
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Raymond Chisholm – you’ve got it spot on.
All you FlyBe haters out there – they have a sustainable business model. Neither Aurigny or Blue Islands do. Simple as that.
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As a regular poverty-stricken traveller to Guernsey from mainland airports where the only choice is Aurigny or Flymaybe. I am always savvy about what I pay to travel. I find that Aurigny get my business every time simply because whenever I am booking, they are cheaper than the opposition with its add-ons all over the place. If as Raymond Chisholm has worked out, it would only cost me an extra £3.47 on Aurigny to keep the company solvent that would still be better than the alternative. Please- just add a fiver to the Aurigny fares. That way there will still be competition on the routes I mention, and Flymaybe can sort out its pricing policy.
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Gilthead
You seem to be assuming that flybe are making profits on their Guernsey services. Why then are they so desperate to stop Blue Islands merging with Aurigny, and stopping themselves from gaining a monopoly?
I think the fundamental problem in all of this, is the it is pretty difficult to make profits from Channel Islands services. The fact that Aurigny has been around for forty years suggests that it is possible, the difference now is that they used to be “shielded” by the route licencing regime, but since the States took ownership the States have removed this “shield” and granted licences to competing carriers on key Aurigny inter island and Manchester services. had they not done that, you’d probably find Aurigny would still be running profitably.
protecc
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Eric Richards – I’m glad you find Aurigny cheaper.
Most of the time I find the opposite.
Trouble is though is that FlyBe make a profit and Aurigny don’t – far from it.
The other little problem is that Aurigny’s fleet needs replacing if it is to continue its existing service. Which will make the £3.47 per passenger rise into something considerably more substantial.
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Ray C – well of course they do because they want more profit!
I’m not suggesting for a minute that FlyBe should have a monopoly – far from it.
Aurigny have only ever been successful on the inter-island routes (as you’ve inferred) but not on the UK routes.
I’ve posted earlier on another thread that the main problem for both BI and Aurigny is a lack of a coherent business strategy. Aurigny’s model is half cocked and BI is a niche player.
If the BI business is to succeed you can forget all the fluffy bits that we currently “enjoy” and get ready for a FlyBe type service.
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raymond C
I think that your posts sum up the situation much better than I could and I concur with your appraisal of the situation.
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I should correct a post I made here “I’ve flown with both Flybe and Aurigny to different destinations but I cannot remember a competitive flight where Aurigny have beaten Flybe for price.”
I seem to recall Aurigny did beat Flybe on one Manchester flight so I should rephrase my comment to “I’ve flown with both Flybe and Aurigny to different destinations but I cannot remember many competitive flights where Aurigny have beaten Flybe for price.”
I also remember flying to Manchester via Jersey once (as it was cheaper than going direct with Aurigny) and I’m not surprised to hear that Blue Islands lose money as on that occasion I was the sole passenger on their Gsy – Jsy flight….good fun as I sat next to the pilot!
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Interesting to note that Flybe have today announced a firm order with Embraer for 36 new 175 jets to ‘concentrate on their European expansion plans’ with options on another 65+.
Come flotation in q4 this year I think all of the above will be irrelevant as Flybe will probably leave you lot too it with Aurigny and Blue Island scrabbling in the sand to see who’s more in debt. I hope Condor can accomodate you on the Goodwill cargo ship when Clipper is full? Your just not worth the cost of a base, staff and aggrevation when share holders need to be answered to. It’s be ‘cheerie’ to gci and hello big wide world of business travellers and see yaz laters to Guernsey residents and their moaners. Best thing really for all at Flybe!!
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ho humm – where did you get that massive ship on your shoulder from?
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Flybe have long gone in terms of being “an island airline”. I remember seeing a Flybe poster in Jersey last year which said something along the lines of “We never forget where we have come from”.
A question to Flybe. Why did you import a bunch of new co-pilots from the UK when there were qualified locals looking for jobs?
Flybe interviewed some of the locals (they didn’t even interview all who applied) but found none of them suitable. “Fortunately” they had just the right number of inexperienced co-pilots from the UK looking for jobs and no UK base to go too! No surprise then that the housing authority were asked to grant a load of new housing licences for jobs, despite there being plenty of local “talent” available.
Don’t listen to the spin that they “do things for the Islands”, they do not.
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@ Eh!
Thats rich after the Flymaybe, interisland, closeted nonsense that pertains in this string from Guernsey residents.
Look if you dont like it dont book it, its simple!
If you get a bad meal in your local are you gona do it again NO…. so, either put up or shut up! Travel with other airlines then, if the locals have spoken with their feet Flybe will leave you to it, do something practical locals instead of JUST moaning like you always do!
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ho humm – you haven’t actually answered my question, just used it as another excuse to have an irrelevant rant. Why are you so angry with people who are just expressing their opinion?
If I had a bad meal in my local, I would tell the boss privately and hope that things were better when I went back next time, it is my local after all. So you have uses a very bad analogy there I’m afraid, everyone has an off day from time to time. The problem arises when the same issues arise time after time with no apparent effort to rectify the problem. So if I had two or three bad meals at my local, then yes, I probably would vote with my feet.
So, why such anger ho humm? What is your problem?
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@ Eh
As my analyst i would tell you why:
1.God forbid that you ever say anything negative about Guernsey because [apparently] its the centre of the universe and everyone born on it is perfect…
2.God forbid that you ever contradict a Guernsey born as they are always right
3.God forbid that you rebuff a Guernsey born’s opinion as your very strange to think that you can and your wrong anyway
As I said closed island, closed minds….. Enjoy!
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ho humm –
1. Guernsey is the centre of my universe, I live here and therefore by definition it is. If you live in, for example, Brighton, then Brighton would be the centre of your universe.
2. Everyone believes they are right – otherwise they would keep their mouths shut!
3. I think point 3 is the same as point 2 isn’t it?
I take it you don’t live on the island, and if you hate us so much, why are you reading this website at all. Surely there is something better or more relevant to you that you could be looking at?
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“As I said closed island, closed minds….. Enjoy!”
Far be it for me to let you down. But would you mind shutting the door on the way out? :-)
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ho humm – I’m sorry you’re (note you’re not your) so desperately unhappy. However, like Eh I’m struggling to understand what you are bringing to the debate apart from seething anger yet to be explained. How about a holiday, might do you good… Jersey is lovely this time of year.
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I agree with carts in saying the “service” that flybe privide is really quite poor,taking into account the charges and lack of flights.Now living in norfolk for a fwe years i have restricted to travelling to gatwick or stansted to visit family by plane. Now yet again flybe introduce a once weekly service on a saturday, which they cannot decide whether it works or not as it has been cancelled more than once in recent years, yet i believe flying to jersey does seem to pose such problems, and as far as i know has always been available.So having no choice but to use flybe from norwich to guernsey is what we are stuck with here in east anglia. oh and by the way what on earth is with that ho humm person! cheerio.
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Ho Humm must have been refused a licence to live here or he is just one of those people that like to stir it up!
he/she is right though in some parts! My wife is always right and i am perfect!
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All the comments about how rubbish Flybe are, surely becoming over the top, as the old saying goes you get what you pay for, Flybe have never cancelled due to lack of passengers so dont know where that came from, plus the fact if you look properly, their prices in advance are more than competative, they have a professional look and feel which is something Aurigny have never had. Is it the prospect of losing Joey that is making Islanders so bitter in their outlook.
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As a regular business traveller to Guernsey from the North East of England the service offered by Aurigny is far far superior to FLybe (Europes Cheapest Airline!) I have a 3 hour drive (which is more preferable)to connect with Auringy as opposed to a 1/2 hour drive to my local airport with Flybe. As with the comments above every time I have used Flybe there has been some issue which has ended up costing me money.
Selling Aurigny to FLybe would be disasterous. In my opinion there is nothing cheap about Flybe except maybe the level of service.
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Caroline
Of course “Flybe have never cancelled due to lack of passengers”. Its always been offically due to a technical problem but such cancellations seem to occur remarkably often when the plane is almost empty and the passengers can be transferred to a later flight.
I don’t believe that any airline has ever cancelled “due to a lack of passengers”. But we’re not that naive are we ? We just can’t prove it !
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If someone suggested that paying £1m per year for a guaranteed useful service would ensure the existence of a multi billion pound industry on an overpopulated island with few natural resources, surely those in power should support it – even if they did have 1990s evangelical “there’s no place for government in business” ideas. The London slots could become extremely valuable, so much so that any company would buy sufficient legal knowhow to wriggle out of any “handcuffs”. Protect Aurigny, its a valuable asset,albeit one with an ongoing cost.
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