No-confidence vote brews over bus fares
Saturday 31st July 2010, 2:28PM BST.
SUPPORT is gathering for a vote of no confidence in Environment after it decided to press ahead with bus fare increases against the will of about half of the States.
The department announced yesterday that cash fares would jump from 60p to £1 tomorrow, defying 23 deputies who signed a letter asking it to postpone the increase until after the Assembly had debated a requete on the issue in October.
A spokesman for the department said it recognised there had been controversy surrounding its decision to hike fares. He said yesterday’s announcement that fares would increase from tomorrow was to ensure there was no confusion over the issue.
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Personally I think that increasing the prices in bus fares by 40p is a rip-off, even 60p for a trip was alot. People may not be able to afford £1 everyday if they need to get to work and maybe even back. The buses are a delight to go on even if it is just a quick pop out to town for example, bus drivers are so comphating and polite. Increasing the prices makes me grumpy meaning that i cant pop into town every saturday because it will cost me so much. Even bus cards are going to have to be toped up more. Unfortanitly things like this happen and i hope that it wont rise anymore in the future. I understand that other people have different opions but this is mine.
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@Amba – I’ve read your comments above 3 times now, and I’m still shaking my head in utter disbelief. Let me get this straight: you can currently afford 60p for a trip into town, but won’t be able to afford an extra 40p? How is that possible? I’m flabbergasted. You Guerns don’t know how good you’ve got it, and are turning into spoilt brats.
It costs me £4 a day to get to & from work – double what you lot pay. That fare only covers me for the 3 miles there and back – any further & it would shoot up to £6.40 per day. You can travel any distance you like – even right around the island for just £1.
Why not try & save money on items you don’t need. Do you buy biscuits or crisps? Then buy less. Sheesh…..
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I tend to side with WATM. I wondered at first if Amba was simply being sarcastic. In my town, to get to a place three miles away I`d have to pay 5.20 Swiss franks – about £3 – and that`s with my halfprice bus/rail pass!
Come on, get real! One quid is still peanuts. Buses are not cheap to run and maintain, you know.
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WATM
While i agree with part of your comment you do seem to have a bit of a attitude when it comes to “guerns”, why dont you just respond to the person(s) (article) who is posting instead of the sweeping statements “guerns” who probably dont mind the rise, like myself.
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Why have a vote of no confidence when Environment’s decision would appear to be the correct one?
I no longer live on the island, neither was I a frequent bus user when I was resident in Guernsey. However, on the occasions I did use the bus I thought the 60p fare was excellent value and would have no qualms about having to pay £1.00 in the future.
Furthermore, I understand that OAP’s pay nothing and that regular users are able to benefit by purchasing an Ormer Card giving up to 50% discount. If this is correct I fail to see how there can be anyone left in the community that genuinely believes the proposed £1 bus fare is over the top. ( I am assuming the long-term disabled are treated in the same way as an OAP and travel for free, if not they should be of course).
Without increased fares I suspect the operating company will need an increased subsidy from The States to survive and that will have to come from the tax payer in any event.
Rightly or wrongly I have commented on the limited amount of information supplied in the above “This is Guernsey” article and it could be that there are other issues that I have not considered. If so I apologise in advance but if not it would appear that 23 Guernsey deputies may have a logic flaw.
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GuernseySeasider UK,
In response to your point about the logic or case of deputies who have taken an interest in the increase in fares, I should like to disentangle the various parts of this debate, hopefully to provide a greater degree of clarity.
2006: States of Deliberation debates the future of the island’s Road Transport Strategy. It agrees that discouraging unnecessary private journeys and encouraging use of alternative forms of transport will continue to lie at the heart of the strategy. As part of the debate, the States agrees to a proposal from the Environment Dept. that bus fares be increased from 50p to 60p per single journey, and that the policy of the States will be to permit further increases in line with inflation and/or to fund improvements to the bus service. 60p plus RPI since 2006 is now a penny or two short of 70p.
25th June, 2010: Environment announces that bus fares will increase to £1 per single journey from 1st August.
13th July: 19 States members write to Environment to request it not to implement the increase in fares until it has put its proposals before the States of Deliberation, including setting them in the context of the 2006 Road Transport Strategy. The Department refuses to accede to this request.
26th July: Environment holds a meeting with States members where it explains its proposals in more depth. It is confirmed that the increase in fares is driven primarily not by fulfilling the policies of the Road Transport Strategy, but by the wish to make so-called ‘efficiency savings’ by transferring the funding burden from taxpayers to users of the service. It is also confirmed that UK consultants Tribal will receive 6.5% commission on the additional fares to be paid by bus users.
27th July: 17 members formally submit a requête for debate in the Assembly. The proposal is: “That there shall be no increase in bus fares above RPIX until the Environment Department has laid before the June, 2011 meeting of the States of Deliberation, or sooner if possible, a report which: a) provides an update of all progress made against the objectives of the Road Transport Strategy since March, 2006; and b) sets out proposals for a comprehensive, sustainable and integrated road transport strategy, including the rôle and funding of public transport in any such strategy, for a period of at least the next five years.”
27th July: Five hours after receiving the above requête, Environment confirms that it will not delay the increase in fares until the requête is debated, but rather that fares will go up on 1st August.
28th July: 23 of the 41 deputies who do not sit on Environment sign a letter asking the department to desist from implementing the increase in fares until the requête is debated, primarily because of the indisputable link between bus fares and the funding and role of public transport in any road transport strategy.
29th July: Environment writes to States members announcing that it is happy to re-examine the Road Transport Strategy, but that it will not postpone until that review the increase in bus fares by 67%, which will still take effect from 1st August, despite: a requête having been lodged to debate bus fares and broader road transport policies in the autumn, despite the majority of deputies asking the department to wait for debate on that requête, and despite the most-recent States Resolution/government policy on fares being that they will be increased in line with inflation and/or specifically to fund improvements in the bus service [neither condition applies in the case of this rise].
I am aware that this debate has been portrayed as being a spat about 40p on a bus fare. But, in truth, it’s about the whole road transport strategy, and whether the States is prepared to hold its various departments strictly to States Resolutions/government policy.
It’s not about whether a fare of £1 feels about right, or is demanded by a set of consultants from the UK who will earn a considerable rate of commission on the fares rise. It is about where bus fares and the role and funding of public transport sit in the context of what should be an integrated, long-term road transport strategy.
Although I have posted under this thread, I should make it clear that I am not advocating that there be a motion of no confidence in the Environment Dept. I and other members are, however, interested in exploring further how the States wishes to respond to a department which defies States Resolutions, and in holding the department to carrying out a thorough review and reform of the road transport strategy.
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Why does Guernsey States insist on making itself look foolish?
If you want to encourage passengers it is normal to reduce fares, not increase them. And 40p on 60p is a nonsense.
But from my limited experience of the Guernsey Bus service as visitors a major problem is the low frequency of service. As OAPs we pay nothing but prefer to take a taxi than hang about.
Also the buses are too big for the narrow roads. If mini-buses were used with a more frequent service then usage would increase, and £1 would seem more reasonable.
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Rees Bryant
You make it sound so simple a!
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Rees
The fare would then have to go up to £2 to pay for all the extra drivers on the smaller more frequent buses
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I don’t think £1 is peanuts especially for the OAPs. It is one thing paying £1 to go from town to Pleinmont but what about the poor elderly person that perhaps just needs to go from the Terminus to Salarie corner or the top of the Grange. There should at least be structured fares. Years ago you paid according to the distance you went and the bus drivers didn’t seem to have any problem with giving you change etc.
Once again rip the Gsy people off………..!
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Caris
Please excuse my manners but I’m going to have to shout this next bit
OAP’S TRAVEL FREE
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Ray,if you increase frequency you will increase usage. Which is what I believe to be the intention. Increased usage = increased fare income.
If you want to encourage people to use buses and not their cars, then the frequency is very important,as is the charge. Putting up the charge will discourage use.
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Rees
Agreed up to a point but the bus Co management has always argued that labour is their biggest cost
The driver of the ‘too big except at peak time’ buses will carry say 30 plus passengers at £1 each per run
The rest of the day he may be carrying 10 passengers per run at £1 each ( I often see buses with only a couple of passengers during the day at 60p )
If you have to employ three drivers to drive three mini buses all day in place of the one big bus how is that going to pay unless you expect each mini bus to be crammed full on each journey
I just don’t think the maths would work out
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All these comments saying that £1:00 is cheap for a bus fare totally ignore the fact that parking is by far and away a better bargain, being totally free. Cheapness is relative…….. the Guernsey bus fare might seem cheap when compared to bus fares in other jurisdictions, but when compared to free local car parking…(which is the only important comparison), the bus is suddenly not quite such a bargain.
The transport strategy was meant to encourage us to use our cars less, thus reducing vehicles on our roads and therefore creating a benefit for us all. Increasing the bus fare while at the same time encouraging car use with the promise of free parking is not fulfilling the transport strategy mandate…… it is doing the exact opposite.
We are stupid if we don’t think that it would be wise to develop a public transport system that is a viable transport choice for us all…… inexpensive, frequent and comfortable. The cost of living is due to rise considerably and creating a scenario where we are all increasingly dependent on costly private transport is bonkers and will create more division between the ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’ with all the attendent problems that that brings. It is short term thinking, overall will be a false economy and shows no vision for the future. It also demonstrates our ‘Environment Minister’s’ total disregard for the environment which clearly sits at the bottom of his list of priorities.
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Ray,
What is the problem they are trying to solve?
If it is to encourage people to use public transport then frequwency and charges are both important, particularly at off-peak. As is the cost of running the service, and the amount of subsidy.
This debate is somewhere in the middle and either of us could be right or wrong.
Unfortunately the failure to define the problem adequately is a common problem within Guersey States.
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Rees Bryant
They dont want to solve any problem, they are just possitioning for battle!
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Well said Rosie.
Strategy? What strategy?? I don’t think the word exists in the dictionaries of Deputies Sirrett, Le Sauvage, Paint, Tasker and Honeybill.
No wonder poor Rees Bryant is so bemused/confused by the (non) workings of our government departments here.
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Rosie – what has paid parking got to do with anything?
Unless the charges are punative it won’t cover the cost of the bus service.
Yes I know there was a strategy – but anyone with an ounce of common sense could see its immediate failings i.e. it would never work.
Don’t get me wrong the bus service is a very good alternative to the car for some people, but not all – far from it.
So why should those who cannot use the bus be penalised?
If buses ran 24/7 and at 15 minute intervals all over the island then yes, discourage car use.
Therefore try to get over the fact that a quid per journey is still ver very cheap.
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Matt Fallaize:
Why not tackle the real problem – huge buses, very often late or not turning up at all, with 80% of the seats unoccupied at any one time
We need a smaller bus, more often, on more routes. Many countries supply such a service (which really is a service to the community).
Sadly yet again Guernsey embarrass themselves with a poor system, poor decision making and an inadequate infrastructure.
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Truth Man,
Huge buses: If I recall correctly, they were purchased many years ago by the former States Traffic Committee. I am not going to disagree with your view about their size, but in view of the likely costs of replacing them before the end of their useful life, now that we have them surely it is preferable to retain them.
Late buses: The buses I use almost always pick me up and drop me off on time. I do not know what the latest statistics show about the efficiency and promptness of buses, but if there are operational problems one would hope that the Environment Department would be working in partnership with Island Coachways to resolve them.
Unoccupied seats: Well, quite. That is precisely why some members of the States are trying to provoke a properly integrated, progressive, ambitious road transport strategy, and why there is such frustration at Environment’s neglect of even a half-decent strategy.
I agree with your assessment that this is an example of poor decision-making. Environment has disregarded States Resolutions on the Transport Strategy, so no wonder the various parts of the jigsaw now don’t seem to fit with the overall policy objectives.
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Truth Man,
Your experience of the buses is totally at odds with mine. I find the routes easy to understand, the buses turn up on time by and large (despite the incessant and ubiquitous roadworks on this rock) and the day time service is a pretty good one. As I’ve said in the past, I doubt very much whether you’ve given them a proper chance.
Yes, I agree the buses are too big but, as Matt Fallaize has explained, the practical and financial realities mean that we should hang onto them for now. Perhaps the next generation of Guernsey buses can be a bit smaller?
Gilthead
Do you regard those who moor their boats at the QE2 Marina as being ‘penalised’ because they have to pay mooring fees? What is the difference, in moral and practical terms, between paying to have a boat parking facility and paying to have a car parking facility?
After all, the QE2 was created at the same time as the bulk of the parking at North Beach and Salerie from the very same land reclamation scheme.
The only decent argument against pay parking is the admin and bureaucracy possibly outweighing the benefits. That aside it should be an absolute no brainer.
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Matt Fallaize:
I have replied on the other similar thread.
Additionally, specifically in relation to replacing the huge buses – I believe the whole public transport infrastructure needs overhauling to reduce bus size, provide more of them, on more routes. To maintain the current fleet on what is in essence a failing system is simply throwing good money after bad.
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Matt Fallaize:
These are great words in politics:
“That is precisely why some members of the States are trying to provoke a properly integrated, progressive, ambitious road transport strategy”.
In this case, what exactly do they mean? What is it you are asking for that is so integrated, progressive and ambitious?
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Martino:
As I have said before – I have given them a proper chance, as has my wife (who still gets the bus to work every day as she doesn’t drive). The only reason I now drive to work is because the bus service could not get me there when they promised they would. My boss got a bit tired of “sorry, bus was late, bus didn’t turn up, bus didn’t stop”.
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Martino – you moor a boat and not park it. Effectvely the mooring is yours (leased from the Harbour Authority) and if some naughty person “parks” on it while you are away you can get it removed.
Trouble with paid parking is where do you stop? Town, Bridge, St Martins, beach car parks, beauty spots…
You can’t penalise town users and not those that use the Bridge can you?
It ain’t gonna work bud.
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An Integrated Road Transport Strategy is code for selective paid parking that directly targets commuters.
Today we heard on the radio Peter Roffey trying assist the pro-paid parkers with a tenuous attempt to somehow connect Paid Parking with keeping wards open and services in place.
Shockingly that went unchallenged and effectively went out as a statement.
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I might be wrong but before the fares were reduced/subsidised to 60p I think they were about £1.20 per journey?
I am lucky enough to be able to walk in to town in the mornings. I then get the bus home as it is all up hill! I topped up my Ormer card yesterday for £25.00 which means each journey is just 50p – I think that’s pretty good.
My main reason for catching the bus is that I can’t stand being stuck in a long line of traffic – at least if the bus is held up I can read or chat to other people.
Having said that, I don’t think putting the fare up will attract those that don’t all ready use the service.
NB – I overheard a visitor at the bus terminus today being told that the price was £1.00 and he replied ‘is that all?’…….
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Truth Man,
With respect, what other than words are available to express our various views on this forum?
In answer to your question, I would say that to be considered integrated, progressive and ambitious, a road transport strategy would need to: be co-ordinated so that its various elements do not conflict with one another (as now) but rather all fulfil the same headline policy objectives; take into account more fully the deleterious economic, social and environmental impact of various forms of transport; and set measurable objectives (at present there are none) which are not pessimistic against international standards.
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Neil,
Paid parking will be inevitably be selective (i.e. the rates will vary from place to place) because the rates reflect the level of demand – just as the presence or absence of disc zones reflects the level of demand at the moment. So I don’t think paid parking ‘targets commuters’ any more than disc zones do.
See also my comment here: http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2010/07/12/wanted-smaller-buses-and-real-time-travel-info/
Paid parking only targets commuters insofar as their demand for parking is virtually inelastic, i.e. that they all have no choice but to drive their own private vehicles to a Town workplace.
Clearly that’s not true because even with free parking, many Town workers already opt not to drive. Studies of parking cost elasticity in other jurisdictions show that raising parking cost has a real effect on both reducing congestion and improving parking availability, even at quite low levels – that’s good news for everyone.
http://shoup.bol.ucla.edu/Cruising.pdf is a fun place to start. The gist of that study’s conclusion is that the provision of free parking is a powerful incentive for the public to waste a staggering amount of time getting snarled up in traffic, cruising around looking for spaces and eating their breakfasts in their cars. It’s a absolutely perverse way of arranging things!
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Charlie,
Before the service/fares were subsidised in the way they are now, passenger numbers were about 50% of their present level. The States subsidy of the current bus service arose only because of the inexorable decline of its under-subsidised predecessor.
Truth Man,
Reading it back, I think you’ll label my 5.01 post as waffle. My apologies.
What I mean to say is that having a coherent road transport strategy with measurable objectives (the opposite of the present one) is more important than having exactly the strategy that you, I or anyone else might dream up if we started with a blank sheet of paper.
My use of the word ‘progressive’ is not code for paid parking, as Neil suggests, but does mean employing more of the levers that might encourage greater use of public transport. In a small, densely-populated island there are quite obviously economic, social and environmental consequences of being saturated with traffic – and those consequences would at least have to be understood, if not mitigated, in the development of a half-decent transport strategy.
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Matt:
It’s odd having two similar but slightly different conversations on two threads!
Nonetheless, I want to point clarify what I was saying:
If your strategy is to be “properly integrated, progressive, ambitious” what will this actually mean to the end user – how do you propose ensuring your strategy is reflected in practice?
Here’s what I mean:
I want the next space mission to be progressive, ambitious, visionary and integrated. Now ask me how… I don’t have a bloody clue because I know nothing about space travel.
Matt, what I want you to do is put some meat on those rather rhetorical bones.
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For many people buses are not very practical,in some areas you may need 2 buses to get to work.Also because of the timing you either get to work far too early or else you take a later bus and sometimes get to work too late.Then when you come to get back home there are no buses running after a certain time.For those on split shifts buses can be even more of a nightmare.Then of course there are workers who are on call and need to get to work in half an hours notice,for example airline cabin crew.
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Truth Man,
I’m not going to re-write the road transport strategy on this forum. What the requerants are saying is this: the present strategy isn’t working, so let’s apply the best brains available among our professional staff with the political will necessary to do something better.
One avenue of reform is to give up encouraging behavioural change, gradually reduce the subsidy of public transport, and accept that mitigating the effects of traffic is almost impossible in Guernsey. The other is to incentivise the use of alternative (cycling; walking) and public (buses) transport, primarily for workers and schoolchildren if we are to make a real difference.
I am inclined to the second option, although I accept it is not universally popular because it means making private transport more expensive and less convenient, and public transport less expensive and more convenient (Truth Man, those, ultimately, are the effects on what you call the ‘end user’).
But, moreover, I think option one [the laissez-faire, car-is-king approach] and option two [as described above] are both preferable to the existing strategy, which basically involves throwing quite a lot of money around without measuring its effects, let alone solving any problems.
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SLEP & WATM, it’s people like you that make me a local very angry at just who the state’s are letting into our beautiful island. With you’re racist comment’s. If you don’t like us guern’s then you should go home….I agree that a jump of 40p in one go is a shock to the system that many islander’s will take a while to get used to myself included. We’re not all made of money…
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Paid parking will eventually come as will more taxes as this Island is going into dept. However as far as lots of people using the buses go, in Guernsey it rains so much when it is also windy making umbrellas usless and many places have as yet no bus shelters to protect one from the often windy and wet rain. Perhaps we need more bus shelters if you want to dramatically increase bus travel.
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You put the choices we face very succinctly in your 8.20pm post Matt. For me the second option is the only way to go forward, whether pay parking is a part of the strategy or not. I am warming to a more simple solution. Simply slash the number of commuter spaces in and around Town. Make North Beach shopper (2 hours, 3 hours) only, for instance, and devote the bottom end of North Beach to a new bus terminus to cater for buses coming in from the north. The car is blighting this island and car USE (we’re not talking about bans here) must be reduced drastically.
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ChrisJ
I’m not sure if you commute and without going over old ground there is only one transport system in the world that will allow me to do what I do in a working day and as a family man. School run, nursery drop off, work and the odd meeting – it’s called a car and its parked on the 10 hour on North Beach.
Why should only a portion of workers that contribute massivley to the economy be punished for their contribution. If everyone pays, then I have no argument – the proposal as it stood, effectively punished a portion of the general working public and will do nothing at all to relieve any percieved or imagimned congestion problem.
Change the school times, stop the commercial traffic along the front between 8 and 9 or even raise the driving age to 19. That would have more effect on traffic reduction than the easy-win of finding a couple of piers to charge for the parking – it’s a box ticking exercise to make it look like something is being done – nothing less.
Matt
“My use of the word ‘progressive’ is not code for paid parking, as Neil suggests”
I didn’t suggest that. On previous threads I’ve questioned how the word ‘progressive’ was hijacked – but not today :-)
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Neil,
Sorry, it was “integrated”, not “progressive”, which you claimed was code for paid parking. Either way, I still don’t think it needs to be.
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Matt:
Thanks for your willingness to debate. It is comforting that you promote using the best brains available, however please please don’t limit that to your political staff. Look outside Guernsey, steal best practice ideas and models that have been tried and tested elsewhere. I am convinced that the reason we get so much wrong is because of the Guern “We already know what is best for us” mentality and our stubborn attitude when it comes to admitting ‘foreigners’ might have better idea.
Anyway, I wish you well. I hope by using your obvious ability to engage with people, you will be instrumental in driving change forward for the better, for your residents & for the island. If that continues to be the direction you are heading in rest assured support for your cause will follow.
Regards.
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I would agree with most comments in relation to the buses, if it was not that local drivers are discriminated by the environment.
If any States Member is interested i will elaborate.
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The original traffic strategy had measureable targets as part of the presentation. It was not designed that everyone must go by bus, but was a “strategy” which would encourage a percentage of the population to use the bus for a percentage of the week. For each person that will be different, but the cumulative effect is that more people on the buses will ultimately have a significant effect on the roads, traffic and parking ability. But without paid parking, the strategy falls at the first fence.
There is no point the Environment Department talking about a strategy, as they clearly do not have one, or understand what the word means.
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Although not asked i will elaborate.
If the tax payer is to put 2.2 million and not all agree with this, especially in another 6 months we may have to chose to cut a number of services.
This begs the question should the Islanders whether they use it, get some benefit from all this subsidy.
One question that is asked frequently, Why are there not more local drivers, especially when we have 450 unemployed and likely to be double that after Christmas?
Many visitors complain that the drivers do not know about the Island and some do not even speak English. It is a bad introduction to Guernsey, some of the cruise liner passengers, who have been directed onto the buses because of the cheap fares have said.
So with high unemployment, why can not 30 or 40 more local drivers be found and also including other bus companies and even truck drivers as well. Sorry to broaden the debate, but lets go for it.
Now to the point, if you employ drivers from outside the Island,all can drive on their licence for 9 months without taking a Guernsey test.
In some of Eastern European and Iberian Areas, i believe you can buy whatever licence you want for a price.
Also if you come from outside the Island you only need a PSV from your own country. That is properly why so many drivers get lost with their passengers.
How do local people get a Bus or truck licence?
It is a 2 hour test and part has to be done down the Fontaine Vinery after 3o/clock, as the sewage carts use it up to that time.
They can only do one a day for 5 days, so that means it is 9 week waiting list and getting longer.
You have to do a theory test first costing £30 for every attempt and also a local PSV.
Then you do a very difficult two hour test and most fail first time and a large number even more times. You can fail for slightly touching a kerb, not looking in your mirror five times or brushing a small bush without doing an emergency stop. If we all did an emergency stop each time you touched a bush, it could result in cayuse on our roads.
Whenever you fail your test you go back to the end of the queue, which means another 9 week wait.
Learning to drive a bus( without using Island Coachways) or a truck can cost you personally up to £1,800, without any quantee of passing the test and if you need more test and lessons even more.
You can see now why so many firms import their drivers, rather than pay for training with possible no benefit and only cost.
That is why so many non locals are driving buses and trucks and local are discrininated against by the Traffic Committee.
It is why local employment is not helped by the members of the Enviroment Dept, who do not care a toss about the locals.
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Edquet
‘…Now to the point, if you employ drivers from outside the Island, all can drive on their licence for 9 months without taking a Guernsey test…’
Guernsey can be so elitist. What is wrong with a UK driving licence or an International driving licence? How is a Guern licence so superior.
It’s the same sort of mindset that says a medical by a UK doctor cannot be accepted; a driver must have a medical done by a Guern doctor. And where do the Guern doctors train? The UK!!! Doh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That said, Guernsey roads have one of the most serious gridlocked road problems in the world. 77,000 vehicles on an island 9 miles by 4 miles!
Instead of just talking why don’t Environment do something positive before the island disappears in its own exhaust?
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coyote
77,000 vehicles on an island 9 miles by 4 miles
Sounds terrifying until you add another figure .. 62,000 ? population including babies and 100 year olds … obviously not all drivers
That’s why I can easily drive to Town from the Bridge in ten minutes AFTER the morning peak rush ( ‘rush’ probably not the correct word )
I sometimes wonder if office workers seriously believe that the morning gridlock actually happens throughout the whole day
Some of our politicians seem to think so
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Ray
Even outside the rush hours this island is blighted by far too many vehicles on our creaking roads infrastructure. Our traffic density is way, way too high and the quality of all our lives would be improved no end by a significant reduction in car use.
Practically every visitor I speak to can see it: “Lovely island but what a shame about all the traffic.” Some truly are shocked and I tend to think we have given them a totally misleading impression about it being a ‘nice, quiet, peaceful island’.
We are also breeding a generation of molly coddled, fat and unfit children who rely on lifts in cars far too much and who will end up as the 40-year-old heart attack victims of tomorrow.
For a whole host of reasons we have to cut down our car dependence.
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Ray:
I do agree with the sentiment behind your post, however the fact that we have more cars per population than any other country in the world is a bit of a worry, isn’t it?
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I can understand the concern at having such an apparent large increase on the 60p charge, but it did seem quite cheap to start with. Where i live now, the smallest charge is £2.20 with a two trip ticket costing £3.80 for a relatively short journey, say from St Martins to St Peter port in Guernsey terms. Though i agree with the arguement of it being too sharp a rise, I am led to believe it had not risen in the past four years? When going back home to visit my family i do use the buses and think they are good value for money and generally on time. Compare this to where i am now (norwich) where the drivers are at best discourteous, where the bused rarely run on time and are not kept as well as the buses i have used in Guernsey.So on the whole the fares should be increased but not at such a rate and more feequently instead of waiting four years then bump it up at 67%. Try using a bus servive near me and you may feel differently all those who feel aggrieved.
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How is that going to help our carbon footprint?
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coyote
You have selected which bit you do not like, but my point was that locals born here or not are dishonestly and discriminated against by the Environment Dept.
As i said a local can wait up to 18 weeks and pay £2,000 before they have a test.
I am a local and have paid tax for 42 years and am angry that a States Dept can be so dishonest.
I believe that these Deputies on this Environment Dept should resign as they are incapable of doing the job with honesty.
The lot of them have proved over the last few years that the Minister Peter Sirett and his crew are to say the least,incompetent.
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The level of increase and the suddenness of the increase are both ridiculous and unacceptable. For once someone should be held responsible for this abuse of the island’s bus users. The island has a terrible traffic problem and parking issues so it is completely nonsensical to make public transport less attractive.
Why is the Environment Department allowed to override more than 20 of the elected Deputies??
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We don’t have a traffic problem in Guernsey. During term time, we have increased traffic during the rush hour but let’s face it…it’s not exactly bad.
And when the school’s are on holiday, there is no traffic problem at all.
For the people talking about the number of registered cars, when was the last time that stat was published? Surely it includes a lot of hire cars?
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Greg for Chief Minister
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Greg,
The Policy Council produces a Facts & Figures booklet annually. The number of vehicles licensed (and previously the numbers taxed for use) are available there.
The number of vehicles taxed for use was:
20,856 in 1970
28,196 in 1980
41,061 in 1990
circa 80,000 in 2007
You will see that the number of vehicles on our roads roughly doubled in the 20 years between 1970 and 1990, and has doubled again in the 20 years since 1990.
In the last 40 years the island’s population has increased by about 25%, while the number of vehicles on our roads has increased by about 400%.
Your 8.56 post starts with the words: “We don’t have a traffic problem in Guernsey.” I hope the statistics above are a useful addition to that debate.
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Matt, I’m sorry but statistics don’t prove anything.
To begin with, to claim there are 80,000 vehicles on the road is clearly incorrect. Even if we are generous and use a population figure of 65,000, it is clear that not everyone of those 65,000 is a driver.
And even if my two children were classified as drivers along with everyone else aged under 17, I doubt we have 15,000 visitors at any one time.
Please note, there is a big difference between the number of vehicles registered and those actually being driven.
My second point is that one should not blindly rely on statistics, but should actually look at what takes place. At present, during school holidays, there is not a traffic problem. And this is with fairly major road works in the Grange. Even during term time, the traffic around rush hour is heavy for a very short space of time.
We are a small island with limited resources, and we are facing financial problems. We do not need our states members wasting their time, and our money, on solutions for problems that do not really exist.
Of course i’d love to have a monrail stop outside my house, with a stop by my son’s nursery and then a stop by my work! However, I’m realistic in what is achievable on an island of our size.
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Vote for Greg!
Vote for Ray as his running mate!
Vote for gridlock!!
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Martino, where is this gridlock? It took me 10 mins to drive from Vazon to town today at 8am, and that’s when one of the main arterial routes is closed for road works.
Of course some times of the day will be busy in some areas, but what do you expect?
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Greg,
My post of 3.33 was not meant to be provocative. I was merely providing statistics which your post of 8.56 inferred you would be interested in reading (Ref: “For the people talking about the number of registered cars, when was the last time that stat was published?”)
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Martino
I’m guessing here but I suspect you’re a 9-5 office worker who gets caught up in the two busy traffic periods each day and for some reason believes that tailbacks from Bulwer Avenue to Town,or Les Varendes to Town happen throughout the day
If you don’t happen to work on a Sunday cancel your lie in and take a drive to Town from wherever you live
The traffic ‘congestion’ on that journey will be very similar to driving the same route on any weekday after say 9.30am
80,000 registered vehicles will include scooters,motorcycles,cars,vans,lorries,buses, tractors,hire cars for the export fiddle etc
Several hundred of them will be for sale on garage forecourts or parked on the private driveways of two or three car families.( Of my immediate neighbours only one out of five is a single car family)
More interesting would be the number of driving licence holders in the 65,000 population ( not all active) because even if your name is Martino you can’t drive more than one vehicle at a time and don’t forget,if you’re moaning because you’re caught up in a tailback you are part of the problem yourself
Just one final thought,running a vehicle is not cheap so to me 80,000 vehicles suggests that they are either essential to life on Guernsey or at least a very popular item to own amongst the voting population
Greg indeed for Chief Minister
Other lesser politicians will crowbar me out of mine at his peril
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You’ve guessed wrong Ray,
In fact you could not be more wide of the mark. I don’t work 9 to 5, I’m self employed and I don’t commute into Town although I do have to go to Town for my line of work from time to time but not usually during the rush hours.
I must confess to owning three vehicles (if you include my bicycle) and an Ormer card. In fact the pusher is worth as much as the other two (car and scooter) combined and my old banger, which I use only for stuff like taking green waste to the tip, cost me £100.
Most of the time I use the scooter (Italian of course) and the bike and when I breeze past traffic along the front on my two wheeled transport I do wonder at the collective madness of my fellow road users on this postage stamp sized island.
Ok, Greg, it may not quite be gridlock, but just try going south to north along the east coast by bike almost any time of the day and you will find it almost impossible to get across the road to access the cycle lane. The level of traffic is a stain on the island and I would love to see meaningful measures (not a ban) to discourage car use and encourage alternative means of transport.
Did either of you hear the guy who lives along the Grange on Radio Guernsey the other day? He said the peace and quiet resulting from the roadworks was a revelation and he’d now be delighted to have a permanent road closure outside his home despite the inconvenience to himself. Just about says it all really.
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@ Matt, sorry I thought you were putting forward the stats as evidence of our traffic “problem”!
@ Martino, I have to cross the Northbound stream of traffic that you talk about every day after dropping off my son, and I don’t think i’ve ever had to wait more than 30 seconds before someone has let me out.
As for the chap who lives on the Grange, what exactly does he expect? We’d all love to live without any noise or traffic, but it’s not exactly realistic. Especially if you live on one of the main routes to town! Perhaps he should consider moving to one of the lanes in Torteval?
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Martino
Sorry about the poor guesswork but it made me do something about presenting some actual FACTS
I took the day off today Tuesday 10/8/10 in order to cut my lawn and trim my hedges but woke up to pelting rain so I did something really useful instead
I took my little car out on a fact finding mission ( and here I’m feeling a little bit superior to you in that my car is worth almost twice as much as yours )
I did several timed runs to and from North Beach as follows…
9.15am Bridge to North Beach via Bulwer
9.22am arrived N/Beach ( 7 minutes)
Biggest holdup .. stuck behind a very careful and sensible motorcylist on the greasy road
9.25am North Beach to Iceland shop St Martins
via Terres
9.31am arrived Iceland ( 6 minutes)
Biggest holdup … none
9.35am Iceland to North Beach via Terres
9.44am arrived N/Beach ( 9 minutes)
Biggest holdup.. following a Rubis tanker lorry down Terres
At least 60+ 2hr parking spaces available on
N/Beach
9.45am N/Beach to Bailiffs Cross via Fountain Street to avoid the Grange
9.51am arrived Bailiffs Cross ( 6 minutes)
Biggest holdup .. following a cement lorry all the way
9.52am Bailiffs Cross to N/Beach via Prince Albert and Bordage
10.01am arrived N/Beach ( 9 minutes)
Biggest holdup .. Filtering from Fountain Street onto the sea front
10.05am N/Beach to the L’Aumone Co-Op via Rouge Rue and St Jacques( you can see that I am spreading the journeys out to resemble an octopuses testicles)
10.14am arrive L’Aumone
Biggest holdup … three red traffic lights
10.15am L’Aumone to N/Beach via Collings Road and Longstore
10.25am arrive N/Beach ( 10 minutes) still 60+ spare spaces
Biggest holdup.. exiting Rouge Rue into the Bouet
10.26am N/Beach to Alladin’s Cave via Petit Bouet and Pitronnerie Road
10.33am arrive Alladin’s Cave ( 7 minutes)
Biggest holdup .. none
10.35am Alladin’s Cave to N/Beach via Admiral Park
10.44am arrived N/Beach ( 9 minutes)
Biggest holdup Stopped off at Coutanchez hedge veg stall for a melon (highly recommended)
Only 50+ free 2hr spaces now
10.45am N/Beach to the Bridge
10.55am Crossed Bridge ( 10 minutes)
Biggest holdup .. checked the car lot opposite the Bulwer recycling yard to see if the three hundred or so Ford cars were still there.Yes they were
The most vehicles I ever had in front of me were five at the bottom of Rouge Rue.I certainly didn’t get the feeling that there were 80,000 vehicles circulating at that time of day although I admit that it does feel like that at 8.45am on a weekday in term time
So there you have it.No tricks,no spin on the number of registered vehicles swamping the island.Just my observations on what was happening between 9.15 and 10.45 am on Tuesday 10/8/10
Discuss
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Haha, good effort Ray!
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Ray,
Great post – even if we might approach the subject of traffic from slightly different perspectives.
“Biggest holdup: stopped off at Coutanchez hedge veg stall for a melon (highly recommended)”. PMSL!
Now, I need to get from Les Marais Lane (by San Lorenzo) to Le Friquet later this afternoon. Can you tell me how long I need to leave for my journey please?
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Matt
Sorry but my octopuses testicles did not stretch that far
Wouldn’t hurt for you to time it though but keep an eye out for hazardous blackboards
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Well, Ray, I’ll have to bow to the results of your post rush-hour fact finding mission, which I accept in their entirety.
I’ve just come back to my place in the Vale, by scooter, after one of my own little jaunts into Town and I must admit there were no hold ups to speak of on that one too.
Despite your sterling efforts, though, you won’t convince me that we couldn’t be doing an awful lot more to cut down on car use.
Maybe this is a hopelessly Utopian vision but as I negotiate my way through the east coast traffic during the really busy periods I dream of the day when the two wheelers are in the majority on that main commuter route.
Apart from the few miserable days like these, Ray, I find being out on two wheels in the summer time is so much more fun and so much less hassle than being cooped up in my own metal box. Perhaps you should give that a go some time as well?
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Ray:
If you didn’t spot the drivers causing the hold ups perhaps you were the driver causing the hold up? Did you look in your mirror?!
I’m kidding of course. Cracking post.
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