Sunday shop law a risk to cruise ship visits
Friday 6th August 2010, 11:30AM BST.
GUERNSEY should do more to cash in on cruise ship tourism, according to Carolyn Spencer Brown, editor in chief of Cruisecritic.com.
Cruise Liner Westerdam anchored outside Guernsey. (Picture by Tom Tardif, 1007452)
Speaking on board Holland America Line’s Westerdam, which was anchored outside St Peter Port on Wednesday, Ms Spencer Brown said the Sunday trading laws could put visitors off returning.
She also said there was scope for more entrepreneurialism to make the most of visiting trade.
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Couldn’t agree more. My family and I arrived on a Friday for a long weekend in Guernsey and there was little if nothing for us to do on Sunday (considering it rained constantly). We could have contributed to your local economy but couldn’t because of this apparent law. I don’t know of many placed with such a law – perhaps someone could enlighten me.
By the way – what is the law designed to protect? Not a sacastic question – I am intrigued by it.
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Sure, we definitely should change our way of life just because Carolyn Spencer Brown, editor in chief of Cruisecritic.com says so.
Such arrogance, if cruise passengers avoid spending a few hours in Guernsey on a Sunday that is their loss. There is nothing they could buy here anyway that they could not get cheaper or better elsewhere.
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where do some people get off telling the rest of us how to live, ye we should all go in to work on a sunday because for a lot of us thats the only day we get off and we don’t like it we want to work 7 days a week. People come to GUernsey because its a break its laid back its not what you would get everywhere else on the mainland. If the people of the cruse ships have only come to guernsey for a cheap shop and not to see the amazing island then thats there problem, Don’t change stay closed on sunday its relaxing to walk around the harbour on a sunday lunch time with out hundreds of people walking around
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Here we go again – see the Creasey thread for an extensive debate on this subject.
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Just like to know what Cruise Ship visitors will buy on Sunday or any other day for that matter maybe the odd souvenir thats about it.
I know whem I’ve been on a cruise its to see the place not to go shopping.
Why should shop keepers have to open on a Sunday just in case they might get a few viitors in off a Cruise Ship it would’nt be worth the wages.
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Well AND
Just go to France and you will soon see who doesn’t open on a Sunday – virtually all of France!!
We recently went on a cruise to Norway and spent vitually nothing on shore. I doubt if I am different to any other cruise person, so there are no rich pickings for Sunday opening just for the sake of cruise visitors – they know we are shut and they still come here!!
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So what is wrong with taking a ride round the island on the 7/7A; stopping off at Cobo or the Guernsey Pearl for lunch/cream tea; and buying your souvenirs from the pearl/book/craft shops? This would take under three hours and most cruise liner passengers are ashore for at least three hours.
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Hi AND – putting the poor weather forecast to one side I hope you enjoyed your long weekend in Guernsey. Here are a few things you could have done on the Sunday which were open;
Guernsey Occupation Museum, miniature golf, visit to Guernsey Pearl, visit to Herm/Sark, Bowling, Go-Karting, visit to aquariam, visit to oatlands village, Guernsey candles, Catherine Best Jewellery Studio, National Trust of Guernsey Folk and Costume museum, visit to Plenimont Observation Tower, La Vallette Underground Military Museum, Guernsey Freesia Centre, Underground Hospital, Castle Cornet, Candie Art Gallery, Fort Grey & Shipwreck museum, The Guernsey Tapastry, The Little Chapel… all open Sunday. There’s more but next time you visit I would suggest looking at http://www.visitguernsey.com
The protection is for shop workers. They have the right not to work Sundays and also have the option of opting out of Sunday working after giving sufficient 3 month notice. There’s very little employment legislation in Guernsey. So where you have a limit on how many days people can work and how many hours must be in a break in a 7/14 day period we don’t have that here. There’s no obligation for employers to pay sick pay or holiday pay let alone all the other benefits people receive. However, many companies do offer these perks as due to the low unemployment levels there’s not too many fish in the pond to choose from.
For the record I’m pro opening up the law to allow retailers to open should they want to. However I don’t agree with Carolyn Spencer Brown’s comment regarding putting off tourists. I doubt very much that Joe Bloggs will decide not to holiday here because some of the clothing boutiques are closed on a Sunday.
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Lynnie
Do I detect that we agree on something about Sunday trading?
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I have been on many cruises over the last few years and called into many ports on a Sunday only to find the shops closed, but it certainly did not spoil my cruise, there is also the matter of a lot of the shops in the med closed for a siesta between 2pm and 4pm which we have also come across, so what, get over it and move on and enjoy the place you are visiting. I say if shops want to open on a Sunday let them open and stop this stupid law of you can sell this but not that it makes us seem like toytown.
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haha cor heck ey Nick! :)
The statement made by Ms Brown clearly shows she is ignorant of Guernsey. I would have thought someone in her position would know all there is to do here on a Sunday and all those lovely gift shops which would be open in the museums.
My point for opening up the law was for the residents of Guernsey. Tourists have 101 things they can do other than popping into HMV. For us “locals” we have the praticalities of life to organise around.
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Pop over to France on a Sunday and what do you find open? It’s certainly not a shopping day.
A Sunday in the UK is much like any other day whereas here and in France the whole pace & rhythm of the place changes on a Sunday. It’s not a bad thing.
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Lynnie:
I always like your posts, and have always agreed with your views… until now:
Guernsey Occupation Museum – good day out
Miniature golf – rubbish compared to UK
Guernsey Pearl – DULL
Herm/Sark – lovely
Bowling – rubbish facility compared to UK
Go-Karting – rubbish compared to UK
Aquariam – rubbish compared to UK
Oatlands village – an embarrassment to the island
Guernsey candles – poor
Catherine Best Jewellery Studio – nice
National Trust of Guernsey Folk and Costume museum – oh no
Plenimont Observation Tower – nice
La Vallette Underground Military Museum – excellent
Guernsey Freesia Centre – nice
Underground Hospital – nice
Castle Cornet – ok
Candie Art Gallery – like it
Fort Grey & Shipwreck museum – whilst on a cruise!?
The Guernsey Tapastry – no no no
The Little Chapel – why?!
When the sun isn’t shining we actually have very, very little to offer our tourists. We shouldn’t kid ourselves into thinking Oatlands, or the Little Chapel, or the Aquarium etc are worth a visit.
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Truth Man, you may have a point – certainly some of our attractions are not very exciting. There may be a case for more ‘rainy day’ entertainment for islanders and tourists alike. But I don’t think there is any case at all for opening the Town shops at the say so of a few cruisers who might want to buy a bit more tourist tat.
You can bet that if the Creasey’s don’t think Sunday trading is worthwhile, it isn’t. Despite our 500 dole scroungers, the shops cannot get enough staff to open six days a week, let alone seven. Inevitably you will just be increasing overheads without any significant increase in sales which can only have one outcome – even higher prices. Its OK for the cruise passengers, they can go back home to do their proper shopping at competitive prices whilst we are already getting comprehensively stuffed.
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hahahahaha hey, I didn’t say they were all a thrill a minute venues!
you make a good point about the shipwreck museaum…probably not the best choice for our cruisers.
But do they really want to be going into the likes of HMV and Next instead?
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And another thing… why do some people want to hold on to this romantic notion of Sunday being a day of rest? Shops being closed on a Sunday is a pain in the neck for anyone working mon-fri.
And what is it with all of our shops closing at 5.30 on the days they do bother to open? It’s like living in the early 20th century, not the early 21st century.
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Truth Man, I imagine they close at 5:30 as most people generally go home and have something to eat.
Anybody working Monday to Friday have Saturday to go shopping, or have the use of the internet.
I hope shops stay this way for a long time here in Guernsey, it is very nice to have nearly all the shops closed, but it doesn’t stop the old people travelling at 15mph along Vazon Coast road.
Great post Lynnie, I agree with you here.
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There is no need for any Guernsey business to open on a Sunday to satisfy cruise ship visitors.
However, to do so in order to increase the products and services on offer to the island’s inhabitants and to create more jobs at the current time of – for Guernsey – higher than average unemployment, is worth consideration.
As other posters, cruise ship visitors can enjoy the beaches, parks, restaurants, cafes, museums and other attractions that open on Sundays.
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GG – I am breaking my vow to respond to this one post only….
You’ve got your causality wrong. The reason people go home at 5.30 and have something to eat is because the shops all close then. Go to almost anywhere else in the world and you’ll see shops open till late and full of customers who go shopping after work.
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may be we could put up some poster sign’s advertising whats on(or not)on the jetty o hang prob wont be aloud or is that another topic
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Beanjar:
You possibly make a very valid point re staffing, however Sunday trading & late opening is a business model we have not tried here.
Perhaps shoppers (including locals) would make the most of the extra shopping time? I know I would.
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HDM, don’t you realise that if the shops open on a Sunday their costs will rise significantly? There are only two ways that could work – either we will all have to buy more in the shops every year or prices will rise maybe 10%. Personally, I won’t buy more and if the prices in Guernsey rise further I will spend less in the shops and more off-island. But perhaps you have so much surplus money you will make up for me and all the people like me?
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I think I’m having trouble getting through here … the point is not whether we would use the shops if they were open on Sundays or 24 hours a day. The point is whether we would buy more during every year to cover all the additional costs. Spreading what you normally buy over a longer period does not help, it only forces up prices. Personally I would rather all the shops only opened mornings or afternoons if it would reduce our shop prices.
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Beanjar, it should be left up to each individual shopkeeper to decide whether it is worth his/her while opening on a Sunday (or certain Sundays when the cruise ships come in). And without the need to go applying to a silly little douzaine for a special license. If any shopkeeper thinks it is worthwhile who are we to dictate that he/she cannot do so?
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I don’t see it. We are talking about a permanent change of attitude for the island. Tourists already have ample opportunity to buy the usual tat and we can all buy essential foods etc. I’m not the slightest bit religious but ‘quiet Sundays’ are part of our way of life and I can’t see any benefit in changing. So we can’t traipse around the High Street, boo hoo!
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Martino,
Here-here! We can all argue about whether shops costs would increase / decrease if they opened on a Sunday, the simple fact is it should be up to the shop keeper and not some bizarre, dogs dinner of a Law. If they don’t want to open, no problem!
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Don’t be so selfish Beanjar, you can’t see any benefit in changing but plenty of others can so why not let them? You live your life your way and let them (the shopkeepers who want the freedom to open and the people who want to frequent their shops) live theirs!
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Beanjar, I work from Monday to Saturday so Sunday is the only day on which I can go shopping. Therefore I buy as much as I can from the internet, on Sundays, as there are few shops open here on a Sunday. I’d much rather give my money to a local shop and support local business. I understand fully that opening on Sundays would increase costs for retailers.
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HDM, your circumstances are rather unusual – not many people work non stop six days a week. Who do you work for – Scrooge?
As for the rest of you, why don’t you just move somewhere where you can shop to your hearts’ content 24/7 rather than ruin our island?
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I’ve just been to the beach (on Sunday which is my only full day off with my wife) and whilst swimmimg I looked back towards the beach and saw families enjoying themselves and thought “you shop till you drop,24\7 folks must be absolutely out of your minds to want to go shopping on Sunday! Rain or shine. As Lynnie has stated I don’t have to work on a Sunday,I could give myself Saturday off if I wished but I don’t, so I feel really sorry for the Martino,Lynnie,HDM and the other shopoholics of this world who ,despite Lynnies’s qoute of all the things you could do on Sunday (I could add lots) would rather visit a shop than their relatives or whatever, for instance on a Sunday.I accept that food stores should be open on Sunday because food is a neccessity and they are but the rest no way! Martino if you wanna work on Sunday fine(I believe you do) but you have no right to ask anyone else to and THAT IS THE REALITY OF WHAT YOU WANT! Some countries have had referenda on Sunday opening e.g. Australia and rejected it. Martino says shops should be given the choice to open, also fine,he doesn’t want anyone else to open(a bit puzzled about that) but what the heck. Here’s how it goes SOME stores open and do o.k so the others HAVE to open then ALL stores are open and NO-ONE, I repeat NO-ONE takes more money or makes more profit, indeed stores close because they are LESS profitable and the shopoholics return to the internet because they have less choice than before and so on. The above illustrates why EVERYONE else apart from retail and hospitality , refuses point black to open their own businesses up on Sundays because they KNOW it doesn’t pay in the end. It seems that the debate here has moved a little away from Sunday opening to just opening all hours but I’ll tell you this Truth Man I went into Creaseys the first night of late shopping in town before the last Chritsmas and ,as a retailer, I thought, to open this place tonight Creasey’s must be absolutely crazy(it was the same elsewhere)! Great for me and the missus but rubbish for the retailers and soul destroying for the staff. It was deserted. Nobody else does the seven days a week model. Why should we?
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Beanjar:
Actually, I will move somewhere else and leave people like you living in the dark ages where you belong.
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Kevin:
So much blah. Lots of places run a seven days a week model as you put it, and do so very successfully.
It is ridiculous that in this day and age I cannot choose to go shopping on a Sunday because of a law.
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Calm down Kevin.
Nobody, but nobody, is saying that those families you speak of should not be on the beach enjoying themselves on a Sunday. There are plenty of people who don’t mind working of Sundays and there are some, believe it or not, who prefer working on Sundays to working on any other day of the week. If the legislation is repealed the world as you know it won’t come to an end. Just live and let live.
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Truth Man, I’m sure we will get over it. No doubt you will pop back when you are a bit more grown up and have learned to appreciate our backward little island. Wherever you go you will find that six shops open seven days sell the same as seven shops open six days. People’s expenditure is not infinite. Of course you could have one huge shop open 24/7 then you wouldn’t need any others … sounds like your sort of place.
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Beanjar, I don’t feel that my circumstances are unusual. I know many people who have more than one job and work six days a week, some work in the evenings too and a few even work seven days of the week.
I don’t understand why the shops have to shut every single Sunday and every single evening regardless of those of us who cannot shop at other times. Why not open on two Saturdays per month and two Sundays per month, for example? Or have a late night shopping on a week night once or twice a month?
I agree that our shops do not need to be open 24/7, but I don’t see why the existing number of opening hours can’t be a bit more flexible.
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Extending shop opening hours has to raise prices but maybe there is be a case for bringing back a half day closing (say Wednesday) and introducing regular late night opening (say Thursday). Perhaps this could suit everybody, even shop owners and staff who might be trading off perhaps four hours on a Wednesday for three on a Thursday. It wouldn’t help the cruise passengers but that argument does nothing to convince me, HDM’s does.
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Shops have evolved and changed drastically over the years. If you don’t think that will continue in the next few years then you are completely naive. Shops are lead by consumers, therefore if the consumer’s change their habits then shops must change to keep up with them otherwise a lot more money will be going off the island.
Yes people have a set amount to spend, but are they spending it in Guernsey shops?
Over the last 10-20 years people have been working for longer. Women have established themselves in the workplace whereas previously they were stay at home mums able to do the shopping whenever they liked. With people working a variety of days and hours it is important that shops remain flexible. HDM your circumstances aren’t that unusual in this day and age and will become more common too.
This will happen people. This won’t effect the average person. You can still go to the beach, you can still take a quiet stroll through the lanes, you can still go and read the Sunday papers in your garden. Oh and you can still go to church.
The main reason for the “against” argument is change. Let’s face it we’re not called Guernsey Donkeys for nothing ;)
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HDM – how do you live then if you can never go shopping?
Its not that I am against change, but this is change for change sake, more of a sheep mentality than a donkey me thinks.
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lynnie
“this won’t effect the average person”
would you expand on who you think the average person is and further tell us who Sunday opening will affect.
Martino who are the many people who want to work on Sundays?Could you tell us which part of the community is “champing at the bit” to work on Sunday?
Truth Man
Lots of places do seven day a week opening do they? Name them please.
Lynnie,
I think you are right seven day a week opening will come but hopefully I’ll be retired by then. one final thought… there is nothing wrong with change according to you ( because you won’t be affected by it) easy for you to say.
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Sunday laws are nothing short of tyranny! They should be discarded and religious freedom should fully ensue. Some people observe another day as their Sabbath – how would you like it if their day was imposed on you?
Sunday laws are a persecution of a minority. Whenever the church has gained control of the state, intolerance and persecution have been the sure result. These Sunday laws are just the beginning. They always come in 4 phases. They last phase is that one is not allowed to ever observe another day other than Sunday. They are always mild at first, but eventually get teeth and open hostility develops against those who choose not to observe Sunday as a day of rest.
Sunday laws are the equivalent of making God’s law void in the land, because Sunday is not the true Bible Sabbath anyway, Saturday is.
“The Church made a sacred day of Sunday… largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance.” – Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, p. 145.
The Founding Fathers of the United States understood the dangers of priestly intolerance and persecution, so enacted safeguards, but the churches are now trying to batter down the wall of separation between church and state every where they can, have are making great progress. Liberty of conscience is no longer respected.
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No need to change for the foreigners, especially don’t change for people who think Guernsey is part of England and should therefore be like England.
The model operating here in Ireland is very successful, shops open til 6pm allowing the 9-5 ers to do a little bit of shopping during the week. It also encourages a bit of a café culture too in those early evenings. This is supplemented by late opening til 8pm on a Thursday or Friday if the shopkeeper wants to.
Having said that, I did find it awkward to shop, especially if you play competitive sport on Saturdays, that extra half hour of opening would have been a Godsend.
I’m not saying you should change, the charm of Guernsey is that it’s Guernsey as it is. Just highlighting the worldwide folly of shops being open 9-5:30 whilst majority of people happen to be in their places of work during 9-5:30…a little bit of overlap would benefit everyone.
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Nick Le P – as per my previous post I “live” by shopping mostly on the internet and at the few shops that do open on Sundays here although mostly at hedge stalls (on Sundays) for fresh food.
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Ok so let’s say in this scenario that average is the majority. The majority of people who work tend to work in Monday-Friday jobs 9-5ish. Now before you start on your soapbox about office workers they have their place and they are entitled to shop like anyone else. They are not any less hard working because they work these hours. To be honest of the finance people I know they’re lucky if they take a lunch and are out of the office by 6. The fact of the matter is we live in an area where the majority of people work between those hours. So why are shops open Monday-Saturday 9-5.30? That means that the majority of people who have the cash to shop can only shop 32% of the time that the shops are open for. There’s also the practicalities of life that they have to fit into that space so let’s reduce that by a further 50% so that means for the length of time that the shops are open to the amount of time the average person works that leaves 16% of the stores trading hours where the average person can actually shop. That’s a rather generous percentage too.
Why should shops be open on a Monday? Because it’s always been like that? Why not open a Sunday, close a Monday? I would have thought Sundays would have been more profitable. This is not necessarily about 7 day trading this is about opening up the law for retailers to make their own decisions.
Thank you Kevin for finally uttering the words we were all alluding to. “I hope I will be retired by then”. So basically your whole argument against is because you don’t want to work on a Sunday. I’ve had to continually adapt to change in my professions otherwise I might as well have stayed in the same job I had when I left college. Changes in other industries have affected me just as this one will potentially affect you. Just for the record I guarantee that if Sunday trading happened your shop would be amongst the first to open.
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Beanjar:
Don’t take offence, I was being a bit tongue in cheek!
But let me make this clear – when I do leave, it won’t be because I am not grown up. It will be because there is more to life than Guernsey can offer. Whether I am 14, or 41 is irrelevant. The fact remains that Guernsey offers a finite number of opportunities and in fact I would say opportunities here are limited compared to many other places.
So, you stay, enjoy your finite number of opportunities and genuinely I hope you enjoy them (shouldn’t take you long to enjoy them all over, and over, and over again). I simply need more and a part of that ‘more’ is being able to choose when I shop without my choice being legislated against.
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Kevin:
Is that a serious question?! How about you take a trip to the UK, and make a list of all the places you visit that allow their shops to open 7 days a week. That would be a very comprehensive start to filling your knowledge gap.
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lynnie,
As usual a crafty and selective response. You know full well as per my earlier post that I don’t have to work on a Sunday I don’t even have to work on Saturday either but I choose to.So that blows a hole in your last post.You also know that where I work we are open 8.00 a.m until 9.00 p.m six days a week.The convenience store on site is open 7.00 a.m. until 10.30 p.m. EVERY day of the week. How dare you insult my intelligence and that of other posters with your misinformed maths regarding when the 9.00 till 5.00 folks can and can’t shop.Call full time 38 hrs per week that leaves the “average person 70.5 hours per week (outside of their own working hours) to shop in our stores and thats inconvenient for them? Please re do your sums on the hours I’ve posted here and let all the posters see the real numbers.Why not finish your post by saying how long you would like the food stores to be open. You may, just may, have an arguement for non food stores to extend hours but the food businesses are open plenty long enough. To open the hours we do we have people in the building from 4.30 a.m. until midnight five days a week and 4.30 a.m until 8.00p.m. on Saturdays and frankly that is enough.Finally you may be right Lynnie ref the store where I work opening on Sunday but I won’t be working. I work three Sundays a year and that is quite enough. Frankly Lynnie your last post was poorly thought out you really must do better.
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Truth Man
See you!
Enjoy the shopping.
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Kevin:
If you do choose to broaden your knowledge as per my earlier suggestion, perhaps I’ll see you there!
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Er no Kevin I think YOU should redo YOUR maths!
I was never talking food stores, I suggeset you re-read my post. Quit seeing this as an attack on your food store. I was commenting on stores (which the majority of non food stores do) which open 9-5.30. Overall I think food shopping in Guernsey is well catered for. That doesn’t change the fact that the co-op (and everyone else) will open on a Sunday if they can.
Shops trading hours over 6 days = 51hrs per week (I’m going on 9-5.30 as per our debate)
Average working person 9-5 over 5 days = 35hrs (we’re excluding their lunch hour)
Difference = 16hrs to do stuff
16 into 51 is 31.3%
If we then half that by a further 50% and that’s being generous then round that up to 16% that’s 16% of someone’s time per week that they can shop in the high stree shops.
Have no idea where you got 70hrs from Kevin because shops in the high street are NOT open in excess of 105hrs a week…
Is it me that needs to think before posting? lol
Get your calculator out mate!
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Truth Man
The truth is that even where shops are allowed to open 7 days legislation means that they can only open 10-4 or 11-5 on a Sunday. This means that choice is limited and people are legislated against.
As I said on the other thread, do you really think that you will ever get the choice of the following on a Sunday? Mortgage advice from a bank, routine dentistry, a GP visit, the chance to post a large parcel, pass contracts on your next house, get advice on benefits or pay your income tax bill over the counter.
Let’s be real here and acknowledge that are onlt a small number of people who want shops to open. Those same people are not calling for anywhere else to open.
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@Kevin
Stop trying to goad Lynnie and bring something worthwhile to the debate. It appears you have yet to do so.
I think most posters on here know that Lynnie is not talking about food retailers, well apart from you that is. her working outs look fine to me.
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Nick Le P:
You are right, in respect of the UK, Sunday opening times are restricted by legislation. Start a thread called “Extend UK Sunday opening times” and I will tell you I think they should be allowed to open 24hrs! The fact remains, shops in the UK and many other places are open on a Sunday.
I will make a similar comment regarding the other services you mention that are not available on a Sunday (although mortgage advice is available on Sundays). If the thread was concerning those services I would also make the argument that it would be of great benefit to have Drs, dentists etc open to us on a Sunday.
This thread is about shop opening times – hence the focus on that topic.
Finally, you state “only a small number of people who want shops to open”. Really? Where is this information from?
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I have read all of the post above, and it seems like this provokes quite a lot of debate. I do not see why “High Street” shops need to open, but I do think it is a bit unfair that Garage shops can open on Sundays, and Garden centres can open too (albeit with a limited range of stock able to be sold on Sundays), but other stores do not have the opportunity to open. Anyone who works during the week finds it very difficult to do a proper food shop for example – you try shopping at Checkers, Safeways or Co-op on a Saturday and you will see how crowded it is. Maybe these shops (or Waitrose when it opens)could be allowed to open on Sundays to give people the choice in terms of food shopping. Also I always thought it is strange that DIY stores like B&Q cannot open on a Sunday – surely Sunday is a big day for DIY and they could make a fortune! So, I am not saying that all shops should open (I love the fact that Sunday in Town is so quiet), but just the retail outlets that perhaps would make people’s lives a little bit more convenient.
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The Crown Princess is due to drop anchor here tomorrow. I know of 3 sets of passengers from various destinations who will be coming ashore, unfortunately due only to the fact that Guernsey is on their itinerary.
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Truth Man
Whilst this thread is about shop opening hours, you were saying that you did not want your choice to be legislated against -
“I simply need more and a part of that ‘more’ is being able to choose when I shop without my choice being legislated against.”
All I did, was point out that even where shops are open on a Sunday legislation exists to limit the trading hours and therefore the choice of the consumer.
As for the numbers, I quote from the previous thread -
Martino
No definitive survey has been done but I think the recent small study among 400 islanders is about right: around 75 per cent of the people resident on this island want to see the total repeal of the Sunday trading legislation.
My response
I am grateful for your clarification on the fact that 300 islanders want Sunday trading. This equates to circa 0.5% of the population and even allowing for extrapolation based on a survey is unlikely to reach 10%. Not what I would call a huge number, you would have to get to 35-40% before you could claim that.
There is no credible evidence that a majority want all shops to open on a Sunday.
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Nick Le P:
Let me separate your fallacies of argument to clarify:
You first responded to me by pointing out that Sunday trading in the UK is also legislated against. I made the point that you are correct, and that I would also support greater choice in the UK in terms of the number of opening hours.
Secondly you made the point that other services are not available on Sundays. In response I reminded you that this thread is about shop opening times.
Regarding your comments to Martino… whilst the statistical significance of the 400 person study may not hold water scientifically, it most certainly does not support your theory that “only a small number of people want shops to open (on a Sunday)”. Quite the reverse in fact. Is this why you did not answer my question of 1016am?
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Stiletto – Sorry I don’t understand your post. Do you mean otherwise they wouldn’t have chosen Guernsey as a holiday? Well that’s true of most cruise tourists. Hence the reason they decide to go on a cruise…or they would just go to wherever for a holiday. Most international tourists don’t even realise Guernsey exists
Are you insinuating that retailing has something to play in their decisions for not holidaying here?
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Nick,
You have extrapolated incorrectly. 75% of 60,000 is 45,000.
Using your logic, a survey polling 2000 people in the UK who found that 25% were in support of the Lib Dems, would now conclude that this equated to only 500 people and therefore less than 1% of the votes of the entire voting population!
Based on this albeit small and informal survey, the majority are in favour and you have no evidence to show otherwise.
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Thanks, Mutley and Truth Man, for putting Nick right on the results of that survey.
I want to pick up on another of Nick’s points now. If doctors and dentists and advocates want to open on a Sunday I say let ‘em but the fact is that they don’t (as far as we know).
One certain fact, though, is that some traders and shopkeepers who cannot operate on Sundays because of our archaic Sunday trading laws DO want to open, and again I say let ‘em.
I’m confident that the results of the survey are a pretty good indicator that a big majority of islanders feel the same way and that the “keep ‘em closed” brigade is in the minority. I’d love to see a MORI or Gallup poll done to prove it beyond any doubt.
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I know this is off topic and doesn’t relate to Cruise ships but surely it can’t be impossible to aim for the balanced situation that used to prevail in England? Supermarkets, garden centres and DIY outlets opened if they wanted to for limited hours and meant that those who can’t get their food and DIY shopping done during the week or on Saturday could do so. I personally prefer the situation to be left in the hands of the retailers and whilst I very much doubt that it would be worth the while of the average retailer to open on Sundays at least there would be choice. As for the idea that there is “no demand” for Sunday opening the crowds in the St Martin’s M&S and the Friquet do tend to suggest otherwise plus if you didn’t want to go shopping on Sunday no-one’s going to make you!
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@Lynnie
Most of my friends and colleagues would not consider Guernsey for a resort holiday;
I have to disagree with you to a certain extent Lynnie, re our cruise, or resort visitors not knowing the island exists – in fact with most households having personal access to the net, I have found some to be more knowledgeable than so called “locals”!
I do not really think that shopping comes into the scheme of things as a number one factor – most people I have come into contact with just are fascinated that there are around 60,000 inhabitants on a bit of rock 9×4 and are keen to look around to see how they all fit in.
I would also say that Guernsey has become an “interest” place for people, walkers and the like.
Back to the cruise visitors – I imagine that if the sea is the heaving grey mass it is today, then there will not be a rush for tenders ashore anyway!.
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Lynnie,
as instructed Ive read your post of August the 9th again.You just refer to shops you do not differentiate at all You are clearly irate because that post was not researched properly and you know it. Why don’t you swallow your pride and admit that food stores are open long enough end of. You appear to be rattled maybe you should do your homework The CEO of the Co-Op has already stated in the media that he does not wish to open any more stores on Sundays. People of your ilk will force people in the retail trade,good people too, to look elsewhere for a career. I can assure you and Martino that the VAST majority of people who work in retail do NOT want to be working on Sunday why oh why cant you accept that.
Matthew Saturday is only third ranking on our customer count and takings days.
Martino why don’t you name these retailers who want to open on Sunday.Surely you would be helping their cause.
Dave I’ve brought facts to this debate just because you don’t agree with them you ignore them I suggest you re-read my posts while you’re at it read Matthew’s post.
Martino,Lynnie and Truth Man are just trying to bully people into working on Sunday and that’s the truth of it man!.
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Truth Man
There is no fallacy in my argument. You stated that you did not what your choice of shopping hours legislated against. I simply pointed out that they are, even where shops open on a Sunday.
No one has put me right on the maths or results of surveys either. What I said was that the 300 respondents did not equal a large number even allowing for extrapolation of 10%. I think you’ll find that equates to 6000 people. Not a large majority of islanders in my view
No survey ever directly extrapolates the respondents to total population as that would be statistically inaccurate.
Mutley to take your logic on the Lib Dem poll would mean that 25% of the voting public would vote for them. I am sure you do really think that. After all it would depend on which constituency the poll was taken for a start.
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Update on above post
Mutley to take your logic on the Lib Dem poll would mean that 25% of the voting public would vote for them. I am sure you don’t really think that. After all it would depend on which constituency the poll was taken for a start.
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Your argument is self defeating Kevin. If there are none – or few – retailers who actually want to open on Sundays then what’s the harm in scrapping these ridiculous laws that force people to get permits from cruise passengers and which stop those retailers who can open (the Friquet for example) from selling their full ranges of goods?
The truth is that you are and have always been on very dodgy ground on this issue. As for your statement that those who are in favour of freedom to open are bullies, how on earth do you work that one out? Nobody is forcing or bullying anyone to do anything. People will open if they want to and they will work if they want to. This island isn’t a forced labour camp. What a ridiculous argument.
PS You haven’t brought any verifiable facts to this debate whatsoever. Just sweeping assertions.
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MODerator
Meant to say FOR cruise passengers not FROM cruise passengers at the start of my 4th line!
Thanks
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Kevin I properly Lol’d at your post.
So let’s get this right. Myself, Martino, Truth Man and Dave are all wrong and bullies? It appears that you have lost the ability to debate. Well done you.
I have not mentioned food retailing. I made a brief comparison (on another thread) regarding buying a chocolate bar at something like 10pm 5 years ago and from that you have managed to weave a whole argument I haven’t even partaken in.
I’m not sure what “facts” you have brought to this debate. You’ve brought your opinions, which is all well and good but they’re not facts and shouldn’t be classed as so.
Stiletto – good to hear it. I’m only going on my experience of cruises where I’ve encountered blank looking faces when I’ve told them where I’m from. Which usually then leads into a 10min speech into where exactly it is and no it’s not part of England. :)
My original point is this. Shops opening won’t make any difference to cruisers. I’m sure they can find plenty to do whilst ashore for a Sunday.
When Sunday trading is brought in the world won’t stop turning, the gates of hell won’t suddenly open, we won’t revert into a recession… it will be because islanders want it. If they don’t then it won’t happen, simple as.
Kevin until next time, ta ta x
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Kevin:
“Martino,Lynnie and Truth Man are just trying to bully people into working on Sunday and that’s the truth of it man!”
That is called projection. I have not made any reference to me wanting people to work on a Sunday, I simply want us to be able choose as opposed to a law telling us what we can’t do.
What your projection has highlighted is that you don’t want to work on a Sunday and all of your previous waffle is a weak attempt at finding a legitimate argument to protect your unwillingness to give your customers what they want. That’s your issue however, and not mine.
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Truth Man
If your argument against law was expanded then it would be comlpetely riduculous. Your choice to speed whenever you want, drink and drive etc etc?
Whilst I don’t agree with Kevin’s point about bullying it is true that once one opens all will. To say it will simply regulate itself and those that want to stay closed will do so is a fallacy. If it were not, why is half the town not closed on other days?
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@Kevin
“You just refer to shops you do not differentiate at all”
Stop grasping at straws man. This is not just about you and your store. Lynnie has just mentioned shops but clearly stated early she was referring to high street shops in general and not food shops.
“The CEO of the Co-Op has already stated in the media that he does not wish to open any more stores on Sundays”
Really when did this happen? I would have thought with the press coverage that M&S got for a similar statement that the GP would be jumping all over this. I happen to know a senior bod who has just transferred from another big CI retailer to the Co-Op and I can tell you. He will most definatley insist on the stores opening on a Sunday if there’s a chance to do so.
“People of your ilk will force people in the retail trade,good people too, to look elsewhere for a career.”
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If they do not want to keep up with the changes then perhaps it is best to get out the kitchen.
“I can assure you and Martino that the VAST majority of people who work in retail do NOT want to be working on Sunday why oh why cant you accept that.”
Just because you don’t want to and you heard people moaning “ugh, gotta go to work now” does not validate this statement. I know plenty of people (myself included) who work on a Sunday and work there specifically because it’s a Sunday. That’s not VAST Kevin. You should amend that statement to what it is.
“Matthew Saturday is only third ranking on our customer count and takings days.”
This made me laugh. Customer count maybe, you might have an oap day or double divvie or something but takings? nope not a chance mate. Saturday is the biggest trading day for all retailers, end of. I doubt that you as a store manager (and not very clued up on what facts mean anyway) have any idea how the other stores are performing in the company other than, good, fair, poorly. I also happen to know that Co-Op managers don’t get to see their store figures so this (again) is just an assumption on your side.
“Dave I’ve brought facts to this debate just because you don’t agree with them you ignore them I suggest you re-read my posts while you’re at it read Matthew’s post.”
What facts, please highlight them along with your reference point. Assumptions are not facts.
“Martino,Lynnie and Truth Man are just trying to bully people into working on Sunday and that’s the truth of it man!.”
I’m not trying to bully anyone…man! This is like listening to a tantrum from a 2yr old who’s not getting his own way.
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Nick Le P:
This is the fallacy of your argument:
Two points were initially made:
1. Regarding legislation on Sunday opening (re: length of opening in the UK) and,
2. The fact that certain other services are not available on a Sunday.
I responded to both points individually.
By the time you responded on August 10, 2010 at 12:51 pm, you had mixed the two points together, hence the fallacies of argument.
To maintain the conversation as it was, without you putting words in to my mouth I will remind you that I said:
In response to point 1 above:
“You are right, in respect of the UK, Sunday opening times are restricted by legislation. Start a thread called “Extend UK Sunday opening times” and I will tell you I think they should be allowed to open 24hrs! The fact remains, shops in the UK and many other places are open on a Sunday.”
In response to point 2 above:
“I will make a similar comment regarding the other services you mention that are not available on a Sunday (although mortgage advice is available on Sundays). If the thread was concerning those services I would also make the argument that it would be of great benefit to have Drs, dentists etc open to us on a Sunday. This thread is about shop opening times, hence the focus on that topic.”
Nick, finally, please look again at your mathematics. A survey of 400 people which returns a 75% positive response extrapolates to far, far greater proportion than 300:65000.
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Nick Le P
Some petrol garages which could be open on a Sunday have chosen not to
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Nick Le P:
You’ve done it again (fallacies of argument)! I am not expanding my argument, you are! Stop trying to manipulate my posts. I am specifically, and only, talking about shop opening hours here.
To follow your logic, because you are happy to have shop opening times legislated against we could expand your argument to a law that tells you when you are allowed to eat, or how much, or what wrist you put your watch on! See how crazy you’re being?!
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Nick,
Oh dear, I am amazed that you still don’t seem to understand the concept of simple statistical sampling. 75% of a survey does not infer that only 300 people in Guernsey population as a whole support Sunday Trading.
Come on, we can agree to disagree about shops opening, but you have to admit you dropped the ball on this one!
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Another slant…
I hate shopping. I really, really hate it. As a life experience I’d liken it to poking pins in you eyes or inserting wasps into your bottom. Hateful.
The only reason to shop is becuase you HAVE to. People who want to shop need help – Shoppers Anonomous etc.
So I say restrict even further opening hours. 9 til 12 Tuesdays and Thursdays should do it.
If I need something in the meantime I’ll buy it on the Interweb.
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Mutley
You seem to be up on problem solving. Can you help me with this one please?
It is Lynnie’s birthday and Kevin takes her out to lunch (it being a Sunday)
The bill comes to £30 which Kevin happily pays as they are leaving
A few moments later Truth Man the manager realises that the bill should have come to £25
He hands Dave the waiter five one pound notes and tells him to run after Kevin and return the overpayment to him
Dave is quite annoyed that Kevin did not leave a tip and decides to keep £3
He returns £2 to Kevin which means that treating Lynnie has actually cost him £28
Dave has trousered £3 so where did the extra £1 come from?
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Did it come from Kevin as these were extra proceeds made from opening his shop earlier that day!? :)
I shall now scuttle off as my lack of Mathematical acumen has been uncloaked!
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This ’75% favour Sunday shopping’ statistic seems totally bogus to me. As it stands, you have 300 supporters out of 60,000 or so population. Yes, you could extrapolate the 75% but only if you can prove that the 400 respondents are statistically random across the whole population. I don’t think anybody has ever claimed this to be the case. If I were to go round my local pub with a petition to subsidise the price of beer I reckon I would get a big vote in favour. Outside church on a Sunday morning might be a very different story. Argue your case by all means but don’t resort to dubious statistics, please.
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Ray:
There is no extra £1. The £3 tip has to come from somewhere, in this case it has come from Kevin’s pocket. £25 food, plus £3 tip = £28.
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I give up.
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Ray – it came from the pigs pocket as he was flying overhead…
:)
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Beanjar:
I do agree with you and I feel a good, statistically significant survey would ideal. However, in the absence of such a survey (or any other survey on the matter) I can see why people use 300:400 as a rough guide as to what the feeling may be.
I notice how so many people are happy to say things like “there is no support for Sunday opening” when the only piece of information is to the contrary. Perhaps you would like to challenge those people too?
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Beanjar
Thanks – at least you can see that 75% of 400 does not equal 75% of 60,000.
Mutley – please credit me with some sense. No where did I say that only 300 people supported Sunday Trading. What I said was clear about the overall statistical value of such a low sample.
Truth Man – Why can’t you accept that Sunday trading is legislated against, even where shops open? That restricts choice, its quite simple.
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Dave you are completely off this planet.Ive NEVER seen such an inaccurate post as yours anywhere on this site .Are you for real?
Managers of VERY large businesses don’t see their figures?
“I happen to know a senior bod” Good for you!
Lynnie ,Martino,Truth Man. I have given clear FACTS in my posts e.g opening hours and work schedules you just ignore them. One thing puzzles me though why are you people sooooo passionate about Sunday opening or any extra opening of shops I’ve fought my corner on this site because I am involved in retailing but you guys? Strange.
I’d be interested to know what Lynnie,Martino and even Truth Man think of Dave’s last post.
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Nick,
ex·trap·o·late:
Extend the application of (a method or conclusion, esp. one based on statistics) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.
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Ray
Ha! Ha! Kevin take Lynnie out for lunch?
Truth Man waiting on tables on Sunday!
Hell will freeze over first!
One thing is right though Dave DEFINATELY would’t get a tip.
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Nick Le P:
Re your last paragraph. You simply don’t read other people’s posts do you? I quote from my first response to you:
“You are right, in respect of the UK, Sunday opening times are restricted by legislation. Start a thread called “Extend UK Sunday opening times” and I will tell you I think they should be allowed to open 24hrs! The fact remains, shops in the UK and many other places are open on a Sunday.”
This is another example of fallacy of argument from you. It makes you a person who it is not worth debating with, because you do not listen, you manipulate what has been said, and choose to misinterpret, twist and confuse the conversation. Keep it relevant, stop mis-quoting me, and then I will happily continue this debate (although your confused approach to reading others’ texts makes it more of an impossible task of keeping you along the lines of the conversation as opposed to a meaningful debate).
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Kevin:
Can I take your last post was tongue in cheek? I accept you don’t know me, but to assume I wouldn’t work on a Sunday just shows how pointless it is to debate with you on such an issue. I have worked all week around with random days off since the age of 16 (and I am now a damned sight older than that). That is why I find lazy, selfish, small minded people like you so frustrating. You keep your Sundays off, and people like me will keep working them to fill the gap you leave. It is only your business that will suffer as a result of your desire to lie in.
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Kevin I doubt very much you’re interested in Martino, Truth Man or my opinions on Dave’s post. It appears that in your opinion if we don’t wholeheartedly agree with your argument then we are all disillusioned idiots that haven’t got a clue what we’re talking about. Despite that we are all consumers and I myself have a background in retail and have worked as a store manager, GM, area manager and now HR and business development.
Facts? No one asked about food store opening times. I think we’re all aware thanks. Staffing schedules? What was your fact about this exactly? That the vast amount of people don’t want to work Sundays? I would love to see how you managed to research all retail employee’s across the island to formulate this…fact…
I’ve made my views on this matter perfectly clear. They are not born of a selfish need to want to shop on a Sunday but rather an overview of my assessment of the benefits. I think I’ve said all I want to on this subject, as I don’t want to digress into a slanging match.
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Mutley – thank you for the english lesson. Sadly that does not alter the fact that 75% of 400 does not equal 75% of 60,000.
Truth Man – To keep it relevant I quote from you “I simply need more and a part of that ‘more’ is being able to choose when I shop without my choice being legislated against.”
If you shop in the UK you are legislated against after 4pm on Sunday, simple. You cannot twist that by saying, well if asked I would want all shops open 24 hours.
Anyway back on topic who are the retailers who want to trade on a Sunday? Let’s see. I am guessing that if there were really retailer demand then they would be pushing for change via the political process, but I don’t see that. Further, I assume that if Mr Creasey thought the trade was there he would want to be open.
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Typical Lynnie,
You didn’t bring anything to the table in terms of facts did you, not one in fact none of you did. If you look at your posts and those of Truth Man and Dave and to a,lesser degree Martino you have all insulted me to one degree or another why ? Because I didn’t tell you what you wanted to hear and Lynnie you may have been in retail but you soon got out of it! Apparently Truth Man (bit of a joke that) says I’m lazy and selfish I’ll remember this and have a chuckle on my next 16 hour shift.Dave, Martino and Truth Man all work on a Sunday which is up to them,not sure what gap I’m leaving for Truth Man to fill but if I’m lazy for not working on Sunday(read my posts Truth Man and you’ll see I do a few)then isn’t everyone including Lynnie and Mutley et al also lazy for not working on Sunday? I have never said anyone is lazy in any of my posts but I think Truth Man gave the game away in his last post, you guys think because you work on Sunday everyone should but there have been plenty of people on here who don’t want to do it.
Frankly I don’t know what the effect of full seven day a week opening will be on the economy but neither do any of you.
So I’ll stick to my statement that the VAST majority of people in retail don’t wish to work on Sunday
There will be NO benefit to any Store to open seven days a week.
People WILL be driven out of retail if seven days a week comes in.
Staff WILL be pressured into working on Sunday(Lynnie has said so on earlier posts that she agrees that this will happen one way or another.)
Of course if you open on Sunday you should be able to sell what you wish I even concede that businesses should be able to open on Sunday if they wish But… this will NOT lead to the heavenly situation you folks think. Only time will tell.
One final note on an earlier post,on a similar thread to this one, Lynnie you said you had come back from doing your degree about five years ago(the chocolate bar one) and in that time you’ve been a Store manager,General Manager,Area Manager and now Head of H.R. interesting.
That’s me done on this subject.
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Truth Man, this isn’t the UK mate.
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Having been told about this site from a freind and I have finally got round today to having a good old read (And laugh)
I just have one comment to make. Even if they did change the law to allow the shops to open 24/7 when would you guys find the time to shop, as you all seem to be too busy on your computors slagging each other off. I wish i had all the spare time you seem to have to go on about such a trivial subject. I can thing of a number of things the island should be addressing first that are far more inportant!
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What do you want me to say Kevin? As Lynnie writes, what difference does it make what we think about Dave’s post? I think you’ve worked out already that it would be difficult to put a cigarette paper between mine, Dave’s, Lynnie’s, Truth Man’s and Mutley’s stance on this issue.
As I said in one of my own previous comments, I’m extremely confident that most people do want to get rid of these backward Sunday trading laws. And Beanjar, that survey was not in the least bit bogus. I don’t think you know the meaning of the word. Nearly 75 per cent of the 400 who responded want to see total deregulation and while it was not a truly representative sample (nobody was pretending that it was) the results are a very strong indicator that you and Kevin and Nick Le P and Gilthead the anti-shopping grudge are swimming against the tide. Bring on a proper, professional pollster to put the whole issue beyond doubt is what I say.
To conclude, it is not a case of if but when our Sundays are deregulated. It’s all down to socio-economics, stupids, and however much you guys who are living in the past stamp your little feet there is no doubt that the world around you has moved on. People have changed and still are changing their lifestyles, faster than you think, and it is the consumers who dictate. Wake up and smell the coffee.
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GG, go back to sleep.
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Nick Le P & Kevin:
I support Sunday opening and greater choice in respect of shop opening times. I see no reason why legislation is needed to restrict it.
I don’t need either of you to agree with me, as this is just my preference. There is no point in continuing down the current path, which is more like bickering than debating.
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Please do not go to sunday shopping.We love the fact Guernsey has traditions when we are on holiday there.It destroys family life with more people having to work.
Enjoy your beaches etc at the weekend,just got back from a fantastic break .Back in England in the rat race now.
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Nick,
simpleton terms – 300 people out of 400 surveyed who state they like Sunday shopping equates to 75%, if you extrapulate that figure to the population sampled in question it would be 75% of that population. To keep it really simple, if guernsey had 1000 citizens, that would extrapulate to 750 people which is still 75%. The figures you referref to earlier are nonsense and no-one is suggesting a survey of 400 represents guernsey
public opinion, it is a possible representation. However you cannot rubbish these figures if you then choose to use them in support of your argument. I suggest you check your posts.
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Martino – why don’t you move somewhere that allows full Sunday trading? You may well change your view then.
And, even if a mori poll was conducted over 2000 respondents, a 1500 in favour result would still not translate to the 75% of the population you keep quoting. I agree it may be more significant but it would not be conclusive.
Ray I take your point about petrol sales, but I would guess that if 2 garages were next to each other, if one opened they both would. That said why anyone needs to buy petrol on Sunday in Guernsey is beyond me. Even in my heady days of driving laps of the island on Sundays, I couldn’t burn a tank of juice and that was in my 3 litre Capri!
I still stick to my basic view. Guernsey should be different, it doesn’t need Sunday trading.
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“that survey was not in the least bit bogus. .. Nearly 75 per cent of the 400 who responded want to see total deregulation and while it was not a truly representative sample …
Martino, you have got ‘nearly 300′ votes out of 60,000. You are deliberately promoting the idea that 75% of the population wants Sunday trading. When you are basing that on 300 out of 400 people (supposedly) saying so under completely biased conditions (probably) then I say your statistics are TOTALLY BOGUS.
By the way, I just conducted a poll of nearly five people in my living room and we are 100% in favour of keeping the status quo. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Nick,
I am not sure that you will ever understand my point about sampling, however on a completely different matter I do respect your choice of motor so there is something we do agree on!
I won’t say anymore on this matter for fear of going insane but best of luck to those that continue.
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Thanks for putting it all in perspective for us Louise. Freedom to buy and sell on Sundays will come because most people want it, end of story. Cheers all!
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I think a better poll would be to look at how much people spend a month on internet shopping and then ask them why they buy on the internet.
I spend around £200 a month on goods from the internet which I would have bought from a Guernsey shop if they had been open when I wasn’t at work and I am sure there are people that spend more than me (I am on a tight budget).
Oh and where are these shops that are open until 5.30 as the ones I have seen, some shut at 4pm, most at 5pm.
I would love a few shops to get daring and stay open until 6pm or 6.30pm and then tell us if they had more customers than they do at 9am in the morning!
Just to be clear, I am NOT talking about food shop opening times above but I am about to!
BTW Kevin, if staff don’t want to work on sunday and opening sunday does not pay, why did the Co-op spend all those years trying to get a petrol station at St Martin’s so that it could open a mini shop on sunday?
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Maz, you’d end up paying about £400 a month if you bought locally! Unfortunately the English landlords who own all the shops in town charge far too much rent.
Truth Man, I should go back to sleep? If you really want Sunday Trading why not live somewhere that has Sunday Trading? If it’s that life changing.
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Lynnie! Please come back! GG keeps talking to me!
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GG
On what factual basis do you claim that “English landlords own most of the shops in Town”?
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plus GG’s way off comparing the rents charged here with equivalent locations in the UK – they are lower here (and yes I’m qualified to comment on this!). Besides, would locally resident commercial landlords charge less? (..lights touchpaper, retires and waits for usual comments…)
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David, as I used to be in the property market.
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haha oh GG how you make me laugh! you’ve stated on this forum you’ve basically had every occupation and studied every degree under the sun!
Really GG your embarrassing yourself.
Everyone knows your lying about what you’ve done/worked/studied just give it up your silly opinions dont matter to anyone.
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Missy
You beat me to it.
GG, not only are you wrong with your “facts”, you are a very poor liar. You can’t even remember what you’ve previously lied about !
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