£37k ‘is too much for postie on a bike’
Monday 23rd August 2010, 2:30PM BST.
POSTMEN’S wages are too high and must come down, says the island’s regulator.
Director-general of the Office of Utility Regulation John Curran (pictured) warned that their £37,000 average was simply not sustainable.
Cost-cutting had to be the number one priority for the utility – but he added that it was a challenge that the company was prepared to tackle.
He was responding to Guernsey Press questions on average costs per employee at the utility, which the annual report indicates are just under £47,000.
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Why the hell shouldn’t Posties be on £37K? Of course, the excessive salaries drawn by local Advocates and Bankers, funded by the exorbitant fees charged to Islanders, is NEVER discussed publically (£300 an hour for legal advice?).
Why isn’t there a similar campaign against over-paid Advocates and bankers calling for their wages to be reduced so Islanders can have cheaper charges? I would not moan about paying a few extra pence on a stamp to keep the Posties happy and on a decent wage.
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Has anyone looked into how many hours the posties work for this wage? I’m guessing it includes a lot of over time so what does it average out per hour.
Then and only then can anyone judge if these workers are getting paid over the odds.
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£37,000 p.a. for a postie on a bicycle. Over four times that amount for postal executives. £47,000 p.a. for firemen working at the airport. 340+ unemployed islanders. A large benefits bill. The Treasury have problems balancing their books. £3.50 per hour for foreigners working in the catering/hospitality industries.
Is this idiocy and extortion working hand in hand? Why is there no rationalisation of jobs and salaries? Why don’t unemployed islanders work in the catering industries who would then have to pay a realistic rate? Or is that the point of employing foreigners? in which case why not employ foreign posties and firemen. Or are things really very complicated and I’m just being rather simple?
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What?!?!
They might think this amount of money is not sustainable for them, but if I was a postie I’d be arguing that a reduction in salary is not sustainable for me!
At £37,000 most people would already be priced out of the housing market. Or does Guernsey Post expect it’s poor salary regime to be propped up by Social Housing for it’s employees?
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Kurt
You miss one point. Posties are employed by a public company owned ultimately by the taxpayer.
Advocates work for themselves (mostly in a private partnership)
The two are not comparable.
Also you are way out on fees, a partner in a legal firm here in Guernsey is on £675 to £700 per hour. £300 is more like associate level, i.e. quite junior.
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I don’t think this argument is about the cost of living in Guernsey and whether £37k is a living wage (which it possibly is, if the whole family work for the post office)…it’s more about indirect taxation (being charged by a States owned monopoly) to unfairly subsidise unskilled workers. £37k for the ability to read and stay on your feet for a few hours a day does seem a little bit excessive, even by Guernsey standards. I’m sure that Milkmen, Newsagents, Road sweepers and other poor souls that suffer the elements on a daily basis to provide us with life enhancing services would agree.
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If they work the over time then fair play but i suspect that many(not all) take the mick supported by strong union. Some stories of people taking sick leave once a week getting paid an hours overtime to go to read a paper in their car for a job that actually takes 5 minutes etc if true must be stopped (I stress IF true). These may be exaggereated stories that I have heard and could well be urban legend.
The difference for advocates as someone mentions, as an example, is 1) they have invested in their skill(great time and money) and it is not a widely possessed skill/qualification 2) they work in a competitive market so if they are charging too much someone can come and do it cheaper. On the other hand people are queueing round the block to be posties suggesting there are aspects of the job that are highly attractive
I say get rid of the union and the people leading it and let it work as an efficient business making a healthy profit for Guernsey. Then if(and im not saying they are) posties are over paid it will work its way out of the system.
On another note i don’t think it should be opened up to competition as it should be run to make the tax payer money not some UK Blue chip company.
Get rid of the union and its leaders and make those running the business accountable!
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Chris:
So, the message here is that when you work for the civil service you will be underpaid and that is ok because you are owned by the public. Or have I misunderstood what you are saying?
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Costs could be reduced simply by reducing the 6 day delivery and pick up.
There has been an item in the last 10 years I’ve waited for by the letter box; anything I need in an emergency is generally sent by courier.
Get rid of Saturday deliveries and pick up for a year and see what happens – then reduce it to 4 days if successful.
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The regulator should regulate and not interfere with things that do not concern him, and perhaps we the public should make the regulator account for his salary
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Truthman…Chris didn’t say they should be underpaid. £37k is probably more than 80% of the UK population earns.
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John Curran – Head of OUR and now the Post Office it seems?
I’d like to know how much he earns.
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As a teacher I earn £25,000 per year, and I’m quite sure my job is far more stressful than cycling about Guernsey delivering post.
Lower the Posties wages and increase mine!
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nothing will change. 10 people (all with a vested interest) will sign a petition and protest then any change will be bottled just like with St Andrews and St Sampsons school. The states needs money so someone needs to act pro actively.
down with the union!
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Anon
The salary you quote is significantly lower that the longer service basic rate teachers’ enjoy.
Yours will increase each year until you reach the comparatively high rate for basic teachers.
Guernsey teachers and lecturers are well paid compared with the UK
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Can open…….. worms everywhere!
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Chris,
You have missed the point; £700 per hour DOES NOT allow Islanders their fundamental right to legal advice (as set out by the Magna Carta), and £37,000 is a fair wage for Guernsey.
Pay the Posties less and more families will require social housing…. funded by who? Why, the tax payer who owns Guernsey Post of course!
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This 37K, where was this number pulled out from? Maybe, 37K can be reached with alot of overtime! Christmas, Mother’s Day etc is a hectic time for posties. If they did not do the overtime they would get behind, your post would not be delivered on time and you’d soon be moaning!! Delivering mail is only part of the job, by bike or van. Guernsey post support local businesses.
Without a decent postal service, alot of businesses would not exist or would have to pay stupid prices to other delivery companies. So first I say give the posties a break, they do work hard for it, and second, this 37K, get the facts correct before throwing numbers as I am sure they do not start on 37k per year.
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Mediator:
Yes, I am aware that Chris did not say they should be underpaid.
It is not relevant that 80% of people in the UK earn less than £37k.
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Stephen John:
Salaries for teachers in the UK are not relevant.
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I would be happy enough for posties to earn 37K IF it was all open and above board, IF the unions don’t prevent proper staffing, IF masses of overtime is not paid and IF the public were not being ripped off. But if these things are happening I would get rid of the unions, hire staff if needed and reduce costs so you don’t need to sell the car to buy a stamp. Technology inevitably means there will be less post, unless costs are reduced we will have bigger losses every year.
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The salaries/packages paid in all civil service posts are ridiculous and unsustainable. We are a small island of 60,000 being forced to pay more than national rates. Who sets these levels? Those who say it is not enough should consider where is the money coming from.
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I bet the regulator gets paid a small fortune,and all he does is sit in an office.Then he puts extra costs on the business,s he regulates,I say he is costing a lot and not producing anything,so should go!
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Paul:
As tax payers we do pay more than national rates to our Civil Service workers. However, due to our cost of living civil service workers here are still worse off than their counterparts in the UK. And this is done on a low tax regime.
Therefore, to make a comparison relevant and fair we must raise tax, so we can raise salaries to bring us and our Civil Service employees more in line with ‘national rates’.
The comparison does not seem so appealing now does it?!
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£37k to sort & deliver a few letters, I appreciate that the job entails early starts & so some “unsocial hours” pay is most probably included in that salary, but what responsibility do these posties have except the safe delivey of your envelope/package to your home? I earn £20k a year & my job too does involve unsocial hours, however I consider that I have far responsiblity than the posties have, I calculate the safe weight & balance trim for passenger carrying aircraft, if I get it wrong peoples lives could be at stake. The company I work for do not recognise Bank Holidays so I don’t get lieu days for any worked – I bet this is not the case for the posties either. I also bet that the posties on their high saleries want cheaper air fares too – who pays for that in the end? Yes, that’s correct me and all other airport workers who have to put up with pay that is way way below the Guernsey average.
Until I read this article I was against Guernsey Post having competition, now however I say Bring It on!
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Kettle, pot, black. What is the true cost for each and every one of us every year to fund the OUR. Remember that so far the Guernsey Post alone has spent close to a million pounds of our money just fighting the OUR and if they hadn’t agreed out of court we would all be paying BOTH of their legal bills which would have cost gods knows what.
Can somebody please show us all EXACTLY where, how and why we are all so much better off with Mr Curran playing god in our small island that simply cannot sustain the level of competition that he is hell bent on creating. I’m so glad I’m working towards self sufficiency so I dont have to pay into his HUGE salary. As you said Dave H, a whole can of worms
and possibly whoop a*se well and truly opened.
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All posties on the bikes earn around the same wage. Around £25K which is a fair wage.
£37K includes all overtime of which there is a huge amount.
Again this is an average. Some earn a lot more.
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nothing ever changes – i agree with you on the primary schools. that was a states decision where many populist deps including trott and flouquet, i think, went all emotional and vote winning.
i disagree with you on unions out! i say unins in!! anyone who has the opportunity to organise or join a union should do so. postal workers are mostly ordinary working people – they deserve to get together to stand up to their powerful boss who cannot survive without buying their labour. if you like, we could scrap the union, half the posty pay, lose half the workers to other jobs that will pay the wages needed to pay off-the-scale local housing and rental costs, and have a completely crap postal service. see how mr mega business and mrs little guern react to that.
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Paying unskilled workers £37k is fine as long as ALL the skilled workers are paid at least £45k. Skilled craftsmen are paid very poor wages when they start off on their chosen career where as most, if not all, of the posties are the sort who couldnt be bothered or didnt have the brains to do a job that requires thought and effort. They just went straight for the money. Why should they be paid more than someone who took the time to learn a skill and is far more valuable in the job market. At the end of the day anyone can do a posties job.
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If you get rid of the union and make someone properly accountable for business performance a fair rate of pay would be the result. If 37 k is fair then that is fine if it’s not a good business man would get new people in for the ‘ Market rate’
from what I have heard the level of power given to the union and it’s head leads to high inefficiencies. I would like to see some analysis of number of sick days and some on the spot checking of overtime. If a large amount of overtime is done in full and is required that is fine to earn a very good wage( what a advocate earns is irrelevant) but i suspect the union allows some poor practices.
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“The regulator should regulate and not interfere with things that do not concern him”
Decent point there Concerned. Do your job Mr Curran and let the GPO management do theirs.
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Also for what it’s worth the civil service is equally inefficiently run with too much of a sense of entitlement(pay rises, pensions). If you paid a decent wage in the states we could get rid of all of them and get some intelligent individuals in that are willing to make difficult decisions.
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I bet Curran earns far more than 37k per year & wouldnt get out of bed for a posties wage
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So what does this man earn and if he is head of the post office and employed by the people why dont you know what he earns, John Curran should look at the price of house’s for the workers in Guernsey let alone the cost of living in this Tax haven.
Look at the mess the UK is in and that is due to society being left to Market forces with little or no regulation, big business has had its go and made a mess of it its time to regulate the financial industry..
people of Guernsey stand up for your selfs no one else is going to do it, you will just be ruled by the same self interested people…
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I think this story is very misleading.
I should imagine that a postie’s annual basic wage is in fact closer to £28-£30,000 (with new starters receiving probably £20-£25,000 then yearly increments) the rest is from overtime. The easiest way to cut overtime would be to include more workers on their basic salary; however fluctuations depending on time of year cannot sustain that so instead they should hire contract workers over busy periods or bank staff.
Not sure where the OUR are coming from here. They can’t lower the existing wages and as they are highly unionised I doubt you can re-negotiate their contract and overtime rate. What they could do is freeze pay. If indeed the average are earning £37K and have been given RPI raises every year then they’re in a better situation than many other islanders who have had to deal with pay freezes, scrapping bonuses and overtime bans.
Guernsey la – There was a documentary a while back on the BBC where a panorama reporter went undercover in the Royal Mail. I have no doubt that some of what you speak of goes on (as in every business you get the slackers) but would hope that they’re not out of sync with other businesses. Completely spot on with your second paragraph.
I think this is due to poor business handling more than anything.
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I work in the finance industry at lower management level and I don’t earn £37k a year, far from it. To judge this we need to be told what the basic salary is for a postie, not an average amount that could include any amount of overtime.
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37k is not too much until you start comparing it to other jobs. I’ve been qualified as a nurse for 8 years. To qualify I had to have 3 years basic training, and to maintain my registration I have to have constant training and updates. I earn 28k. Let the posties earn 37k, tax the rich more (God forbid) and give essential workers ie nurses, teachers, police etc, a fair slice of the pie.
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Love this!
Seeing the usual cronies dig in at the civil servants! I know quite a few Cs’s and they work damn hard – gone are the days of sitting around drinking tea and reading books at the desk (if they ever existed!).
Also, I am told for example, a chief officer will get somewhere like £100,000. OK, that sounds like a lot, but when you think of the responsibility they have, the size of the budgets they have to manage – you would NEVER get a private company MD taking that job!
Let’s get off the bandwagon – the horses are getting tired!
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I question the validity of the article. 37K is ridiculous for an unskilled job whichever way you look at it. It is these sorts of wages that stimulate the economic trend for higher house prices.
Whoever says this wage is not relevant to the Uk is wrong, at the end of the day we have a currency of which the value is stimulated by the uk if we allow wages to get so uncontrollably out of hand like this everything is going to cost a fortune!
There are consequences for this level of irresponsibility.
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As I understand it, the figure of £37k does include a lot of overtime. But the unions ensure there is a lot of overtime to be had because of ‘sickness’ levels and working practices which were done away with decades ago in the UK. That’s my belief, perhaps somebody with inside knowledge would care to confirm or deny? If true, surely it would be better for Guernsey to have a bit less overtime and some people off the dole? Unions tend to care more about themselves than the unemployed.
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Does noone remember that Curran originally told the post office there were too many posties and forced them to retire off or let go a number of staff, now he cant under stand why theres so much overtime? I personally know a number of long term posties who are on no where near £37k, and that is on the top of the yearly increment they recieved for long term service. I also know of a few who work almost every hour the office is open, to pay for a decent standard of living, that is a moderate house with 2.4 children to fund, not exactly a life of luxury and yes, they can earn more than £37k but they are working the hours that Curran opened up for them.
Also if being a postie is such an easy desireable job, why are there not queues of people lining up at the door desperate to work there? I for one dont want to have to get up at 4:40 every morning, have no social life that Im not half asleep in ( and I do do shifts so I know all about having to leave a party early on a Saturday night) and have to ride around in the freezing rain, for hours on end, getting attacked by dogs and people because Im taking them bills they dont want.
Perhaps Curran should spend a couple of weeks actually doing the job, he WOULD change his mind.
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I can ride a bike…..
But you don’t offen see postie jobs in the paper…
now I know why..
Good wage for riding a push bike.
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Compared with a pensioner £37000 looks fantastic.
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There really should be fair wages for ALL jobs irrespective of who is doing them.
Bus drivers would need to work 15/16 hours a day six days a week to earn three quarters of the £37,000 which is what I understand the posties earn.
To pay a nurse less than a postie is nothing short of ridiculous.
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Tree: As far as I am aware positions that come up are highly over subscribed.
I don’t get the cost of living arguement. 37k a year will get a single person a flat. The amount of students I know who go away spend thousands on education get a good degree (some with first class degrees) and earn half that when they start out here is scary if you make a cost of living arguement for pay( e.g. 18k a year starting salary minus say 3k a year repaying debts). if thats the case lets set the minimum wage at 37k a year I’ll go and do a civil servants job getting 100k a year with little accountability and a fat pension.
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Fresh air, exercise, 37,000 please give me a job!
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Wow give me a red bike!
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Alice, it really boils down to what is “fair” doesn’t it though. Your definition of fair is as you indicated, and you’d probably say that a nurse is worth more than a lawyer, presumably as a nurse cares for people.
But then if you have just been correctly defended by a good lawyer for some unfair accusation, then you will perhaps think different?
Is a nurse, who made my bed and gave me the pills that a doctor prescribed to make me feel better worth more than the postie who delivered that present that made my nipper jump for joy?
In the end, we pay for people’s brains, in effect in many jobs. And it takes a very good brain to be a “profession”, doctor, lawyer, accountant etc, so those brains cost more.
And deskie, I told you the horses are tired mate!
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Truth man…ridiculous argument about cost of living again. Lets compare apples with apples here, cost of housing is the same as south east of Uk, we have low taxes for everyone, low social security, No Vat,cheap petrol, rates, mortgage relief, next to no unemployment, low crime rates, beautiful scenery etc etc. yes the odd item maybe more expensive but lets all be honest and compare reality cost of living. The biggest threat to our cost of living is finding the money to subsidise all these salaries which are not justified.
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I have no issue with a postie or any other worker earning 37k everyone needs a good wage.
Its not prices that are high its WAGES that are LOW
Low pay is subsidized by the taxpayer.
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Stupid living wage argument again. Fireman, move in a Council House. If you are a low grade postie go see the Guernsey Housing association, like the manula wrkers who paint lines in the road. Posties shouldn’t be on any more than waiting or flower pickers. It’s very simple job that requires no skills. Christ it’s barely even manual work, more a well paid exercise for of Velo Club
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Paul:
Prices here comparable to SE England?! The odd item may be more expensive?!
You’re clearly talking from a position of ignorance. I don’t mean that offensively, but Paul, you are simply way way off with your assessment.
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Last accounts for OUR on their website are 2008, and show salaries and employment costs of £417000. They seem to have three directors and four staff.
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Truth man….Examples? Ignorance? Running business both here and UK gives me monthly bills to compare. Your ignorance based on?
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The article published in yesterday’s press was very misleading. The basic wage for a postie is about £25k. Those who are earning the figures quoted in the press would be working 50-60 hour weeks. I also think it very unfair that their wages are splashed across the press like that – how many of you would feel comfortable sharing your salaries with the rest of the island?
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Wealth only comes to those who are prepared to take it, look at the robber barons in the financial industry pay your self very large amounts of money
even when the industry is in a mess.
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Paul:
Surely, on the basis we are talking about individuals’ salary rates, we are talking about the cost of living and not the cost of running a business?
Nonetheless, I will tell you that I base my knowledge on having lived and worked in South East England, and in Guernsey, on very very similar monthly net incomes in both locations. My pound in the UK bought me considerably more than it does in Guernsey. This is the case even without comparing the price of property. If you want me to compare the price of property I will do so:
In South East England my net salary bought me a property. In Guernsey the very similar net salary gets me laughed out of the estate agents.
Ignorance on my part? I think not, and my bank statements will pay testament to that.
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Paul/ Truth Man
Having lived in both SE England and Guernsey, I can safely say that its a damn site more expensive living in Guernsey.
Paul, maybe business expenses could be comparable,(depends where your business is), but beleive me, the cost of real life living, Guernsey vs SE England (removing London from the equation), theres no comparison, in fact statistics show that the only place comparable to the Channel Islands in the UK, is London itself, and its immediate suburbs.
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Many people on lower wages in the finance industry don’t get paid overtime. Not everyone in the finance industry is on amazing salaries even with good qualifications. How come there is so much overtime when the postal business is shrinking year on year? Jersey Post are cutting some 90 jobs? How can Guernsey Post be any different with more competition?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-10683502
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We have at least one day a week (not a sunday) when we receive NO post whatsoever. This is for an entire street, not just our house. That means that the postman is working less, not more hours.
Given the fact that the post over here is no better than the appalling Royal Post in the UK – why not get rid of deliveries altogether.
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37K isn’t as much as you think. Let’s just see what you can buy with it monthly. Their monthly gross wage is 3,083. After tax ((315) and GSSA (185), possibly pension contributions (100), he is left with = 2483. If they have a 2 bedroom house (1 bedroom for the parents 1 for the kids), they have a mortgage of around £1,000 (more if they only just bought), or if they are renting their rent is at least 1,200. He pays half of that (as wife pays the other half) = £500-600. Plus utilities for a household with 2 kids in a 2 bedroom house: Electricity = 100 (at least), Water 50, Gas/Oil/whatever heating spread over the year 100. Paying half of that =£125. Food for 4 people from which 2 are adults: around £400 per month (+-). Half of it is = 200. Petrol for the family: 200 = half is = 100. Clothing: £100 per month.Half is = 50. Possible loan repayments re car, TV, fridge, washing machine…whatever (98% of people have some sort of loan). Taking a low one for £100 per month. Half is 50. School stuff = not sure, could come to around 50 per month I suppose. Half is 25. Insurances (house, mortgage/life, car) come to around 60 per month (very low that is). Half is = 30.
At this point this is what he has left: £1,353. If he wants his kids to go to University, have a driving licence, etc. he needs to save money for this. So he puts away £500 per month to a savings accounts for the kids. He also pays for social events for the kids, any costumes, possibly some after school activity (music, art, sport).
Also for all this to happen he needs his wife to earn the same wage, and the above figures are very generous.
That’s how you spend £37K a year without buying anything big, or spending all the time. Just normal stuff, that most families have.
Posties work just like everyone else, they work for a wage to keep their families up, just like all of us do. No point in arguing that they have an easier job than Joe or Pete, because Joe or Pete aren’t posties. Leave them alone, give them a fair wage, and that’s that. If you don’t earn enough, and are jealous of the £37K, get more skills and find yourself a better job. It’s only life people, ranting about it will make no difference whatsoever.
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ckai
Goodness me – that was quite a post (no pun intended). Full of assumptions and to be honest not worth a carrot.
£37k is a ridiculous amount for doing what they do (i.e. an unskilled job), there are thousands of people who do much harder jobs for far less money. Catering staff, people in growing, dare I say it even States Works employees, very very few of them earn anywhere near what the average push bike operative does.
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It astounds me the amount of animosity there seems to be toward decent hard working men and women in the post office. I know quite a few posties and also know that not only do they work hard, work long hours, work unsociable hours, and work a massive amount of extra hours to cover over the Christmas period. They can still struggle to make ends meet.
Ckai’s breakdown of the payments the postie makes is only for the 37K earner…which surely is a exaggeration of the norm. What about the average postie who is supporting a mortgage, two children and a wife who only works part time??? They way I see it if you are working 50-60 hours per week delivering absolutley essential communications and packages around the island then you are entitled to what you are getting paid. If there are some lazy blighters ripping the crack out of sickness and overtime then this is a job for managers and directors to sort out and it should be them who are dragged over the coals and have their wages scrutised all over the Guernsey Press! Not the average Joe just doing his job.
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The only place in England comparable for employment opportunities is London and the home counties so the comparison for cost of living is only relevant there. Average wages here are higher(just compare posties wages) and the big ticket items here are cheaper so where, overall, is it more expensive? Not house running costs, not car/transport, food yes but where else?
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Phil – you completely missed the point. It is very relevant that we are talking about people here, who have expenses like all of us do. It’s important to see what are the expenses/sacrifices for getting this £37K or to be honest probably a lot less.
You can’t say others work harder and deserve more. What gives you the right to say that someone in an unskilled job works less harder than a skilled person does? That’s nonsense. They earn what the managers think they deserve, you earn what your managers think you deserve.
Yes there are lots of people underpaid, but that’s their choice. I think we’re all adults and if we aren’t satisfied we do something about it. It’s not like people have to do what they do, they all choose to do it. Can’t blame the system for it, you can only blame yourself.
I worked in the hospitality for 2.15 per hour, but studied more, proved my abilities, and now few years later I do what I’m satisfied with. It’s not rocket science really.
I agree with PW Fudgedonut.
Maybe everyone should look at their own side of the fence first before saying anything.
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As Dave has mentioned many people on lower wages in finance industry work overtime without any additional pay – however unlike the posties, finance workers are generally working their way towards a promotion somewhere along the line. There are very few oppertunities for promotion in the post office.
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Hi all,
If you are “skilled” and resent the “unskilled” being paid more than you… perhaps you should become a postie and pipe down.
Obviously this only applies to finance and not healthcare etc where good people get underpaid for doing important jobs that we all need.
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Average salary for a UK postman is under £22k, ’nuff said!!
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Adam: people don’t mind if an unskilled job pays well if thats the result of market forces but not essentially susidised by the tax payer and driven by a union.
Why should other people subsidise the posties and the whole cost of living arguement is ridiculous. Most people i know earn a lot less than 37k and they survive!
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ckai
Unlike postmen, other workers do not have a powerful union behind them which fights to keep the completely ridiculous terms of employment in place. They do not earn what their management thinks they deserve, they earn what their union pushes for, there’s a big difference.
And if you don’t think that a KP or a waiter (working 60 or 70 hours a week) works harder than a postman then you’re quite frankly bonkers, and I have every right to say that.
As for your comment that people choose to be underpaid, get a grip will you? Some people have absolutely no choice but to take low paid jobs, in which they are often exploited.
We all have expenses, lots of people work unsociable hours etc etc, postmen are not unique in any way. Sorry, they are unique in one way i.e. they are the only unskilled workers who earn over £700 per week, as far as I am aware.
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Paul:
No Paul, our conversation is not about employment opportunities, it is about your claim that we are being forced to pay more than national levels and I think I have shown you why I believe we should do exactly that.
Our conversation is about how much people are paid once they are employed, not whether they find a job in the first place, as the latter would make this a conversation about benefits.
In any case, I am not sure that average wages are higher here at all. Although I do not work for the postal service, the transfer of my role to Guernsey saw me receive a very similar net monthly figure to what I received in the UK. But, I am worse off. London and most home counties salaries are bolstered by London Weighting for exactly the reason you are arguing against. The bottom line is, if you live somewhere that is expensive (Guernsey for example) your pay needs to reflect this fact.
I agree with some other posters, the postie wages might be out of sync with some other skilled roles but this means those other roles are being paid too little – not that the posties are being paid too much.
Finally Paul, to answer your question, here is where it is more expensive:
Food, utility bills, phone bill, mobile phone bill, broadband, clothes, taxi fares, rent. These are all off the top of my head and I don’t know about you, but these are exactly the things that I spend the vast majority of my money on. Not the big ticket items you mention (although frankly, you’re also wrong about those – most can be ordered more cheaply off the internet from the UK!).
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The postman provides a useful service – but the regulator …
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Phone:
I agree, I also know lots of people who earn less than 37k, but life isn’t about surviving and it should not be about bolstering one’s salary with states hand-outs such as benefits & social housing. I really do believe we need to close the gap between the top and bottom earners. The start has to be us acknowledging that the current lower salaries are much, much too low for modern day living. Equally the top end salaries are much much to high to be justifiable.
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i think the posties should be payed even more as they have to go out in bad weather and cycle up all the hills.
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Truthman, once again you do not argue the case that it is more expensive to live here than London. Yes some things are more but everyone is more than compensated for with less taxes,rates social security etc Electricity yes, oil no. Yes we can all access more on the internet and with free delivery and VAT taken off ( amazon) your more expensive broadband is taken care of as well. Guernsey’s main problem is how to pay its way with a very small positive tax population. As more and more public workers seem to expect their salary to match their expectations rather than what the job is worth or their qualifications suggest we are all in for a painful tax take future. Lets see what that does to the cost of living!
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Surely if the average posties wage in UK is 22k and the average posties wage in GSY is 25K that is about right??? 37K is a figure taking into account massive amounts of overtime I am quite sure. When you work it out there is no robbery. As for people who work in the financial sector who have compulsory overtime and do not get paid for it, I can give them little sympathy because they chose that profession with that kind of work ethic and obligation. C’est la vie? Take away the postal service at your peril. Unfortunately like the Airport Firefighters, if the postal service stops so does the Island.
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Wow, even 25k is a high wage! I’m quite shocked but now understand why part time is possible. I wonder what the Alderney/Sark posties are on?
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No wonder the cost of stamps and parcels are always rising. Drop the wages and the postage costs should drop (likely they would go up again)
Bring in Competition I say.
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they aint on a gr8 basic wage then work hard to make what they need to live here so they get damed by someone that dont live here . go on all you posties work you pedals off and take home your money BUT please dont be so dam quick with the bills tax rebates would be nicer been waiting for mine for months . keep it up lads
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PAUL and truthman
You both have valid points, im a heating engineer by trade and live up north i earn circa £32500 a year, my friend with same skills works in london
and earns circa £40000 a year. If i was to return to guernsey to maintain my living standerds i would need to earn circa £42500. where i live 3 bed lux house to rent costs £600 pcm, in guernsey £1500 to £2250 pcm kind of speaks for itself really. Guernsey needs to introduce more tax on the finance industry that would keep the eu happy and true guerns.
Guernsey is a very expensive place to live, £200000 for a flat in gsy, my area £200000 would get you a 4 bed lux house in a very nice area, once again speaks for itself.Blame the states not the postmen.
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Take this as an example of a finance job from an agency website to compare
Team Leader, New Business 20-35k
Your main responsibility of this role will be to help co-ordinate the work of a team of 4 people in the New Business Department, overseeing the processing of new business from the regional offices, validating, underwriting and issuing unit linked policies and ensuring any premium increases, decreases and top ups are actioned accurately and in a timely manner.
You will have an A level standard of education and will offer at least five years experience in the field of financial underwriting and compliance.
At least five years underwriting experience and in charge of four people for 20-35k..
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ckai – good posts. everything is relative, but why should not anyone work hard in an important service and be given good reward. and i mean not just posties but all those workers, private and public sector, who provide essential and important service to everyone else. most people debating i bet are workers arguing among themselves over the difference between a few thousand a year or so, while industry barons earn 10 times more. what is more important – an advertising director flogging you cat food and on-line betting, on £150,000, or a nurse on £25,000?
the other local problem is the disproportionate relationship between wages and housing costs. support the postal workers and they should support you ( though it would help their cause if they stopped texting while riding with no hands on the bars).
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AH NO WONDER YOU NEVER see postie jobs advertised even if its 25k thats v good .Iwant a postie job.
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Paul:
Firstly, you started off by saying Guernsey is comparable to South East England, and I showed you that it is not (Guernsey is more expensive).
Then, you changed your mind and decided that actually, it is London and the home counties that Guernsey is comparable due to similarities in employment opportunities (a fallacy of argument)! You then invited me to tell you in what ways Guernsey is more expensive and in response I provided you with a list of things that are more expensive here, I quote:
“Finally Paul, to answer your question, here is where it is more expensive:
Food, utility bills, phone bill, mobile phone bill, broadband, clothes, taxi fares, rent. These are all off the top of my head and I don’t know about you, but these are exactly the things that I spend the vast majority of my money on. Not the big ticket items you mention (although frankly, you’re also wrong about those – most can be ordered more cheaply off the internet from the UK!).”
I have so far, in both of my replies to you told you that my pound in Guernsey buys me less than it did in the UK and that I am worse off here even though I am on a very similar net salary. I lived in Central London, Greater London, then moved out to SE and commuted. Nonetheless, of all the places I have lived in Guernsey is the most expensive and is the place where my pound gets me the least.
Two other posters have made similar points to you.
I am uncertain why you feel I have failed to make the case that Guernsey is more expensive.
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Paul the plumber; I think your statement about true guerns is ridiculous, the finance industry employs many guernsey people and the people who aren’t from guernsey spend all their cash here suppoorting local companies. Without the finance industry there would be a lot less posties and every other profession whether that be builders, shop owners etc etc. People in guernsey should cook the golden goose.
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I once worked as a postman and it is hard, honest work. It was also the most enjoyable job I have ever had. I am now in the finance industry and do not work nearly as hard for more money.
Our posties work very hard so why shouldn’t they be remunerated appropriately?
I suspect Mr Curran is paid significantly more than the £37,000 our hard working postmen receive but does he work as hard?
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Eh
I dont dispute that finance employs many people and supports the service industry.
Guernsey is under a lot of pressure from the EU/USA/OECD with regards to tax on the finance industry and now form within with regards to tax revenues, guernsey needs to increase taxes on the rich and on finance.
Future Scene 1
Keep the EU/USA/OECD happy and increase tax on finance and say earners above 100k at 30%.
Future Scene 2
States stay as you are, the EU/USA/OECD have given up talking due to pressures form a massive soverign debt crisis, crashing economy, low tax returns, and millions of there countryman calling for action. For them the talking is over they will make changes to internationl tax agreements ( and i think that will be a lot more pain full than scene 1.
Guernsey states need to get out of there bubble wake up and realise big powerfull countrys with millions of people with a massive debt/soverign debt crisis, will look to shutdown countrys what they think are harmful in regards to there tax arrangements.
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Well done John for geeting a good finance job. How did you manage to get the job when you have had no experience in finance and probably no financial qualifications? Correct me if this is incorrect as most firms wouldn’t interview people without both. They would rather get someone on license.
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Paul
Countries (or islands) can’t just be “shut down”, there is the issue of international law to consider.
The likelihood of personal income tax rates going up to 30% on high earners is virtually non-existant, social security levels could be tinkered with but basic rates of tax are sacrosant.
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paul the plumber
Don’t give up your day job! Tax finance at 30% and you won’t have any finance !
Thousands out of work who wouldn’t be able to afford your services
Perhaps you HAD better get ready to give up your day job after all
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Ray
1.Dont plan too
2, Thanks for pointing out my mistake should have put any persons above 100k not finance.
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Phill
If the EU/USA start to put restrictions into law and pass those laws, then the finance industry would have no choice but to leave.
actual % amount stated is a place to start
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Steve…
“Well done John for geeting a good finance job. How did you manage to get the job when you have had no experience in finance and probably no financial qualifications?”
What an amazingly offensive statement/question! How do you know what qualifications John has or not? Was it an assumption that because he used to be a postie he couldn’t possibly have bettered himself or even had good qualifications before he entered the service?!?
You are very incorrect in the (yet another) assumption in that the finance industry will not employ people without finance experience. Many Financial Companies are looking for people with LIFE experience and loyalty towards previous employers. The Finance Industry does not require Rocket Scientists to be able to function. I think there is some sort of intellectual snobbery going on here and it is unfair because I know plenty of clever postmen and quite a few not so clever people in the finance industry. Indeed it seems that if pay is a reflection of intellect, posties seem to be up there with some of our more savvy politicians.
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truth man: we need facts, how are clothes more expensive??? we get vat off if as most people do now you use the net.
CAn’t say things like taxi fares etc are more expensive as travel costs in Guernsey are in general much cheaper than the UK (petrol, distance travelled etc)
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Truthman. You continue to talk about what is more expensive but refuse to acknowledge the major benefits we all recieve in less deductions from our wage packet or the major differences that low housing rates etc give to you. Yes your pound may not buy as much of some consumables but you have more pounds to spend. London,home counties includes the vast majority of the south east so don’t bleat about that. You also do not seem to acknowledge thegeneral benefits of living here maybe the ‘cheap’ S.E. is where you should go and vote for your socialist views if living here is so unacceptable.
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Take their bikes away make the blaggards walk.
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Paul
Your idea to tax high earners would have more of an impact on the finance industry than any US or EU directives.
We provide a wide range of services and have proved very adaptable over the years, I’m reasonably confident that we can continue to be so.
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There are those who are underpaid and provide essential services,there are those who recieve a fair wage in our so called democratic society(like postmen)and there are those vastly overpaid,charging vast sums for their services,whom the world could well do without!
Who is the most important person if you have a burst pipe,need an ambulance,your house is burning,awaiting an important letter,need some food,need to catch a bus,or a taxi and so on,the most important person in the world is the person providing all these services when you need them.So why should they not recieve a decent wage which enables them to live like the responsible citizens they are?
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Paul
Truth man was talking about his net salary, so your latest comment about deductions is moot.
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PW Fudgedonut can you read it states correct me if I am wrong. Most people would not study for a qualification that is not to do with their job? From my experience and from many people I know the financial sector does not look for people without experience or qualifications for the job. Look at the agencies to see what they want! If you put your cv in it will be rejected even for people with degrees and experience, obviously you have never worked in finance.
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Phil
EU/USA/OECD TAX MOVES WILL WITHOUT DOUBT CAUSE MORE DAMAGE THAN TAX ON PERSONS. ON THE BASIS THAT HIGHER TAXES WILL HURT THE INDUSTRY YES.
SOMEHOW I DONT THINK YOU SEE THE BIGGER PICTURE HERE, THE WORLD IS IN A CRISIS AT THE MOMENT, THE CURRENT STABILITY ON WORLD MARKETS/COMMERECE HAS BEED PAID FOR BY QE (EXCEPT CHINA SOUTH AMERICA ASIA).
I AGREE GUERNSEY AS PROVED ADAPTABLE OVER THE YEARS, BUT WE HAVE NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE FINANCE INDUSTRY AND THE WORLD HAD TO DEAL WITH A NEAR COLLAPSE OF THE GLOBAL FINANCE SYSTEM AND MASSIVE QE, (WHICH IN AFFECT HAS CAUSED GOVERMENTS WORLD WIDE TO PLUNGE IN TO MASSIVE DEBTS RESULTING IN CUTS TO SERVICES FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITH NO JOBS ADDING MORE PRESSURE.
GUERNSEY VS THE REST OF THE WORLD
I DONT THINK GSY WILL WIN DO YOU.
BE PRO ACTIVE NOT REACTIVE, TAKE THE LEAD FIND A MIDDLE GROUND AND MOVE FORWARD.
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Paul:
Exactly as Omerman said, I have been talking about Net salary and have made that clear in my last three posts.
And thank you for resorting to the “If you don’t like it leave” rhetoric. Think before you speak Paul, this conversation is about salaries and cost of living, not about other issues such as beautiful beaches. At no point have I said living here is unacceptable – those are your words not mine. Again therefore your point is moot.
yftjfuytf:
I base my comment on clothes being more expensive on the basis that in the UK there is greater choice. I can buy good quality clothes in the UK from a number of mid-range suppliers at good prices. No doubt, if they all operated here you would be correct, clothes here would be cheaper. That is not the case however. It is also not the case that all internet ordering provides us with VAT relief – and many internet based sellers won’t deliver here at all!
Finally, I can perfectly well say that taxis are more expensive, because they are! I stated this in response to Paul’s request for information on what was more expensive here in Guernsey. If he had asked me where petrol was more expensive clearly I would have answered “the UK”. That however, was not his question.
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if the average amount for a postal worker is around £47,000 and at the mo it’s at £37,000, what exactly are they complaining about!?!
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Truthman still refuses to accept that the penny differences he chooses to name are more than compensated by the huge financial benefits given by reduced taxes. He further refuses to acknowledge that the example he chooses to give ie taxi fares, while per mile maybe more expensive is more than offset by the miles actually needed to be covered. As you only seem to want to respond to a direct ‘question’ perhaps he would like to answer these… UK or Guernsey for higher taxes, social security, house rates, petrol, car running costs, buses, parking etc etc.
Lets not forget mortgage tax relief, very generous pension relief, capital gains and that everything we all work so hard to accumalate can be left to our families without deduction of 40%. If we are to state Guernsey’s high cost of living at least back it up with real world comparisons. As for net pay, well mine is substantially more here and I suggest the posties is as well!
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A very interesting anonymous letter in yesterday’s Press, comparing the £37k earnings of a postman with the £26,000 of a policeman. Says it all really. No wonder there is always a shortage of policemen and no shortage of postman !
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Paul:
You don’t get it do you? My finances are not a matter for debate. I am telling you that I got more for my money in the UK than I do here. On the same net salary I was financially better off in the UK. I know perfectly well what the tax benefits are here and I know perfectly well that they are swallowed up (and then some) by daily living expenses being more expensive. Mortgage relief is completely irrelevant to me, as I told you previously that due to the price of purchasing a house (astronomical here compared to the UK) and the cost of property I cannot even get close to benefiting from mortgage interest relief (whereas in the UK I can afford to buy which rubs yet more salt in to your wound).
Two other posters on here have made similar points so perhaps you’d do well to listen to those who also know their own finances much much better than you do.
On this basis I reiterate (to bring this back to the subject of the thread) that I do not feel an average salary of £37,000 for a postie is too much. I say this in conjunction with a belief that many many people are being paid too little here, and in the UK.
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Wow, what a lot of opinions, assumptions and potential libel.
I still struggle to see what the postmen do to earn that kind of money. Mail volumes coming into the island are on the decline, so there can’t be that much overtime to be had, and if the mail plane turns up a bit late in the morning, the mail is not delivered that day, so it’s not for the extra hour or two they have to work for legitimate reasons. God forbid that any of the poor lambs should have to work a bit later than lunchtime and ruin their day and their part time jobs.
Maybe they are in fact just mickey takers who get paid an obscene salary for riding a bike (yes even in the rain like hundreds of others have to!) and pushing letters through conveniently placed holes in doors.
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I’ve heard it said that the posties earning £37k “must be doing 60-70 hours a week”, i.e. around 25-35 hours a week of overtime. That’s totally unsustainable in any business. Nobody should have to work those sort of hours on an ongoing basis.
Teacher £26k, Policeman £26k, Nurse somewhat less. ‘Nuff said.
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The plumber has lost the plot. Doom and gloom, doom and gloom! You want to get back on the tools mate. According to you your new world is about to go down the plug hole. Guernsey always does well. Touched by god we are. Blessed!
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David: my expeirence of the post office is that they do not have to work overtime but there is an element of playing the system so that they do work it.
I hate the idea of consultants and the fact that they go into a business and do the managements jobs for them whilst charging huge fees but I would be fascinated to see what they make of the business and it’d be interesting to see if overtime charged went down when they were there
It says something that no of them want to move ”upstairs” for a more senior job as they are worse off.
Truth Man: I have to say I fail to get my head around your cost of living arguement(Should a postie here get c50% more than in the UK due to living costs) and the evidence of it (I.e. majority of clothes/electronics are much cheaper here if costs bother you enough to look on the net, and are we subsiding laziness on internet shoppping??) and but too be honest I’d like to hear you say something positive about Guernsey to prove your not a Jerseyman in disguise! :o)
Don’t get me wrong everyone is entitled not to be on the breadline but everyone having a luxury life is unrealistic….look at the communists!
I will give you that houses are very very expensive here but lets face it its a great place.
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Paul another bashing of civil servants. one point that I haven’t read in your exchange with truth-man is that civil servants come from the employment pool, as you point out the island has a low unemployment level which as I am sure you are aware running your businesses supply and demand, where you have a low supply you have a higher price.
As a point of interest, as I understand it the difference between the civil service and private sector for my skills is that civil servants earn about 12% less than what they could earn if they were working in the private sector. seems strange why they do it?
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The thought of easy money has brought a lot of jealousy to light, stop crying about it and do something about it for yourself…like ask the post office for an application form!
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Postman Pat Fat Cats.
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This whole thread is based on a misrepresentation of the facts. The original article stated that the cost of employment of a postie is £37000. This is not the same as the salary which would be significantly less. Employers pay states insurance, pension, sickness and holiday pay. In addition there are probably a number of other overheads which make up this total. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the actual salary is perhaps two thirds of this figure (£24000 perhaps) rather than the £37000 everyone is ranting about!
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Truthman, my apologies I was not aware of the size of the chip on your shoulder which explains your answers.
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One thing the Post Office has got and that is a good union. Unlike the TGWU who seem to likes taking union dues without doing anything for their members, the Post Office’s union, (cannot remember the name), do support their members, and I am so glad there is a work force here, that cannot be bullied by management.
There is too much of an attitude problem by so called management, an attitude of not caring, not listening, thinking they know it all and with the attitude of ‘if you don’t like it you know where the door is’. I have worked at a few of these companies and all the same. Cowboys is a nice way of putting it.
The problem is there is no protection now. The TGWU seem useless to do anything with exepetion to the firefighters dispute at the airport recently. But in fairness the firefighters always had the upper hand.
So I am glad the Post Office workers have a good union.
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Paul
I fail to see why you have gotten so persoaal with Truth Man!
Upon noticing that you are constantly moving the goalposts of your arguments, not really backing your comments up with anything as substantial as you seem to think it is, and now resorting to personal attacks I am now wondering whether your are actually my wife in the other room on our laptop!
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Paul:
Once presented with facts about my personal financial experiences you do not have the grace to either present a relevant counter argument, accept you may be wrong, or agree to disagree on the basis of differing experiences.
Instead you resort to a childish retort which completely undermines you, even more than your previous posts did.
I am sorry to have wasted so much of my time discussing this issue with you.
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Big Up:
No, I’m not from Jersey so you can relax! Please do not read in to my comments. I am specifically talking about cost of living, not about whether Guernsey is a nice place to live or not (that’s all on a whole other thread!).
I think many, many people are underpaid here and in the UK. Do I think posties should be paid 50% more here than their peers in the UK? No, they should be paid more, but probably not by 50%.
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Union Man: “I am glad the Post Office workers have a good union.”
By good, I guess you mean strong enough to dictate to management how much work they are prepared to do per day so they have plenty of energy left to do the work they didn’t get round to as overtime? And to look after the short term interest of members even though they know it is damaging the business and therefore their longer term prospects? Didn’t you guys learn anything from the 1970′s and 80′s?
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It never ceases to amaze me how many posts follow a simple article and lose the thread.
Thread was – is 37k too much for a postie?
It depends on the average wage of a Gsy person I expect.
I have met a lot of posties, and many of them are up at 5am and work until 3pm, or later if they have more senior roles. The work can be quite lonely and many of them become withdrawn socially due to the type of work.
Some bloke thinks 37k is too excessive – so what? Where was his incredible financial astuteness 10 years ago when the States were blowing money on capital projects? I suspect he was too busy reading books about how to be smug.
Leave the Posties alone, it is a hard job and deserves the pay.
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The whole point of my and many others frustration with the whole cost of living argument is that those who shout the loudest fail to back up the arguement with facts and figures. Therefore those of us who are employers have to, and along with all our advisers,every time conclude that the high cost of living is a myth. Continuing to keep calling for higher and higher wages for no logical reason will simply mean we will move our companies to more realistic ares.
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Darren
By what yardstick is being a postie a “hard job”? What special skills or expertise are required? I must obviously be missing something.
Empty letterbox into mail bag. Take to Post Office for sorting. Sort. Deliver on pushbike. Nothing there seems very hard to me. A knowledge of the alphabet and an ability to read is a definite advantage, judging by the amount of my mail which gets delivered to my neighbours and of their mail which I receive.
Compared to a teacher, policeman or nurse, it certainly isn’t a “hard” job by any means. Early mornings yes. Unpleasant in bad weather, most certainly. Hard – no!
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