Schoolchildren to hear service from the Pope
Wednesday 15th September 2010, 2:29PM BST.
The Notre Dame and St Mary & St Michael pupils who will be at a service with Pope Benedict, left to right, Tabitha Martel, TJ Pinchemain, Lauren Prince, Reece Fernandes and Gabrielle Setters. In front is Nicholas Hutchinson, holding a photo of the Pope. (Picture by Peter Frankland, 1027963)
GUERNSEY children will be some of the select few to see the Pope up close during his visit to the UK this week.
On Friday three pupils from each of Notre Dame du Rosaire and St Mary & St Michaels will travel to Twickenham for an exclusive schools’ service.
Pope Benedict XVI will lead a prayer at the Big Assembly at St Mary’s University College for 3,000 students from across the UK.
Also travelling to the UK will be six Year 9 and Year 10 pupils from Blanchelande College who will attend a service at Westminster Abbey and a concert at Hyde Park on Saturday.
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http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/mr-ratzingers-rap-sheet/
Enough said!
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He hasn’t even arrived yet and I’m all Poped-out
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Brainwashed kids going to see a paedophile protecting, bigoted old man – what a lovely story….
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Surely government money in the UK would be much better spent on eradicating religion in schools rather than inviting Popes to the country and encouraging the religious schools!
We’ve seen over the past centuries that religion is a cause of many wars, so why is it still acceptable?
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Sorry, who’s letting kids near a Pope?
No seriously, I wish them all the best…
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@ Jimm
I am an agnostic, so what I see, is a few very proud little children, chosen to be where the Pope is. I no way whatsoever, condone the alternative pleasures of some priests, the whole terrible things that have and, continue to be made public, where vulnerable children, and, also, vulnerable young adults are concerned make me want to weep. This man is due to arrive in UK tomorrow, my understanding is that UK did not invite him, he chose to come here.
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Jimm – “religion is a cause of many wars” I think can probably be adapted to “religion is the cause or excuse for just about every war”
To quote Steven Weinberg “With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion”
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Stiletto – so if the UK government did not invite him, how does it become a “state visit” largely funded by the UK taxpayer? If I were such a person, I would not be happy that my taxes were being spent in this way – I feel disgruntled enough that some of my parish rates go to the parish church, a place in which I have no interest, and for which I have no use.
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According to BBC, the queen invited him.
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I believe the Pope was formally invited to Britain by Gordon Brown during a Papal Audience in February 2009 and the visit was confirmed in September 2009.
Love him or loathe him the Pope is Head of a sovereign state. This is therefore an official State visit at the invitation of the UK government, hence why the taxpayer is paying at least some of the bill. You don’t invite someone round to dinner then expect them to foot the bill!
I appreciate many people have concerns but I personally don’t see how it is any different to when the President of China is invited over. A visit by a Head of State is not just an exercise in boot-licking, it is a unique opportunity to raise legitimate concerns about the actions of the nation they represent. For that reason alone I think the Pope’s visit is justified.
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His Holiness is in Great Britain on a State Visit, and yes He has been invited by the Queen and Prime Minister. He comes as a Head of State himself. Why is there such an uproar over this humble, gentle Christian man visiting the UK. Imagine for one moment He were a Muslim Imman or such like – he would be receieved so very well and there would be none of this belittling etc. Pope Benedict and the Catholic Church defend life, natural law, and moreover human rights. I commend Stileto for his comments above, coming from a person of no faith – thank you :) Let’s rid the world of bigots, I thought we all had free will. When the Catholic Church and the Pope are mauled, I am personally offended and feel sick to the skin. I am proud to confess the Catholic Faith, I am proud of this visit, and I can say Long Live Pope Benedict!
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Dominus- were you also personally offended and did you feel sick to the skin when the Pope was trying to cover up child abuse scandals?
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Greg – Ah well everything comes back to child abuse doesn’t it? The Pope did not cover up anything, if you’ve read his writing and the documents as I have then you’ll see quite clearly that the then Joseph Ratzinger did nothing contrary to Canon Law, and all the right channels were informed of the abuse. Sometimes one needs to read the facts before one judges. For sure there are many priests who have abused and they should pay for what they have done! The Holy Father is innocent. It’s always the Catholic Church’s fault. Child Abuse happens everywhere … look at today’s Press, the Church is one minority
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@dominus
What makes me sick is a man that preaches anti contraceptive ideals to a continent that has an AIDS epidemic.
“the Catholic Church defend life, natural law, and moreover human rights”
I’m sorry but I disagree with that statement (because it’s wrong), the one thing we can agree on though is to “Let’s rid the world of bigots”.
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dominus – I repeat http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/mr-ratzingers-rap-sheet/ DEFEND HUMAN RIGHTS??? You are having a laugh?!?!
Were there a state visit of a Muslim Imam (please have the decency to use the correct word), or a Muslim head of state who had such an horrific record I would be speaking out just as loudly.
Ratzinger is a dangerous man to have in a position of such power.
In my personal opinion there is nobody more bigoted than a christian, and the catholics fall in to the worst category. Apparently I am damned to eternal hellfire and damnation just because I don’t worship some bloke who may or may not have lived a couple of thousand years ago. Just how intolerant is that??
Paul Le Page – What benefits are there to be gained by the United Kingdom from his visit that can justify such high cost? We already know that Cameron is not going to raise any of the sensitive issues – see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN1c33NVklI
Your comparison with the visit of the president of China is a good one, and I was equally offended by that.
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Domimus, well as long as everything was done according to Canon Law i guess we shouldn’t criticise.
I guess we can can also forgive his ridiculous views on homosexuality and contraception then?
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The views on homosexuality and contraception are ridiculous in the eyes of secular society, maybe, but why? Contraception in the case of HIV/Aids does not solve the problem. Ridding the world of Poverty would alleviate all problems. Contraception does not always prevent HIV, abstinence does. Contraception reaps promisuity. The world will never agree on everything because we have free will, but there is a happy medium to found in everything.
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Eh – as I’m neither Catholic or a UK taxpayer I can’t say I’ve spent too much time weighing up the economic and social benefits of the papal visit.
My point was that, irrespective of any personal views I hold about the Pope or the Vatican, as the invitation for a State visit was made by the UK Government it is the responsibility of the UK government to foot the bill and treat him like any other foreign head of state.
As for difficult questions, how do you know that David Cameron (or the Queen) won’t ask them? True, that broadcast you posted is all very sickly sweet but you know as well as I do that politicians in public are very different to politicians behind closed doors!
Besides, even without “official” questions, this visit has allowed the British public to express their views to the Pope very publicly. I understand for example that he was questioned about the child abuse scandal by a BBC reporter whilst still on the plane bringing him here. There have also been public protests against the Pope, again an opportunity for those who oppose him and Catholicism in general to have their say, at a time when they will get worldwide media publicity.
Finally I also understand that during his visit the Pope will be meeting (in private) victims of abuse by catholic priests. If this indeed is the case, I can only hope that some good comes out of this. If nothing else, he will have to look them in the eye and hear what they have to say. Although it won’t “miracle” the pain away, perhaps the opportunity to express their feelings in person to the figurehead of the organisation that hurt them so cruelly will help them in some small way. I’m not sure you can put a financial value on that, are you?
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Thing is dominus, AIDS is a very real and large scale problem that we (the human race) need to deal with. The Catholic church has no business interfering when you have your own agenda that has nothing to do with containment of the virus.
Fact is: the Catholic church is a wildly irresponsible institution with too much influence in today’s society.
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dominus – you are talking out of your mitre. all manner of agencies are trying to tackle poverty and HIV/ aids with education about, and provision of, birth control being a realistic and practical means of helping. cultural and financial factors make this hard enough without the misogynist catholic church (and some off-the-wall US fundamentalists) activley preventing this progress by preaching anti-contraception. that alone is a huge damning hand held up to hinder the fight against poverty and overpopulation. it is an unnecessary obstacle to the fight against HIV, and prevents women from gaining control over their reproductive lives. to oppose contraception chains women worldwide to poverty and all manner of ill health and oppression. i am so angry that what is obviously a decent and reasonable aim should be held back year after year by a male dominated, all powerful coterie of blinkered believers in what is, in the age of reason, absolute hokum. dominus – there is no ‘happy medium’ in death by aids or by poverty. you and your pope deserve as much ‘aggressive secularism’ as I can give you when the catholic church keeps its medieval foot planted so firmly on the neck of the world’s poor.
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Dominus. When it comes to religion, I’ve always believed each to their own, but only if it benefits the individual and does NO HARM to others.
The level of denial, ignorance and ‘blind faith’ that your comments display truly, truly scare me (and the fact there are so many like you). It reminds me of the dark ages, witch burning, the crusaders and the like, fighting and killing in the name of the church.
‘Contraception doesn’t solve the AIDS problem’…
No, Dominus, CONDOMS stop the virus from passing from one person to another. Proven, period, and how the Catholic/christian church (that crowbarred itself into the African continent, uninvited and unwanted, to apparently teach and spread the word of ‘god’-their church), have the bare faced audacity to use their position of power over often poor and uneducated people (who are dying in their millions of AIDS), that the one thing that could actually prevent the disease spreading is against the church (and by implication, ‘god’) and there’s ‘little holes in them that help the disease spread’, beggars MY belief.
‘Contraception reaps promiscuity’…
Really? So no contraception means no sex? Ahhh, that’ll explain the countless amount of unwanted births and terminations each and every year, all over the world, then.
And of course, the Catholic church’s constant coverup’s of child abuse…
‘*sigh* why MUST people always bring that old one up, ay? Other people do it too, not just the church’…
sooo, that’s alright, then?
This isn’t a single perpetrator covering up his own crimes, Dominus, this is a worldwide organisation that has been proven time and time again to systematically cover up members of their own organisation, men of ‘god’, using their position of trust to rape and molest children.
But of course, for the believers like you (that is the fuel that runs this obscenely wealthy, incredibly powerful machine), all the evidence, proof and proven facts in the whole world will not stop you closing your eyes, blocking your ears, and continuing to believe that it’s all just lies, and that the only truth is the church…
and that, for me, is a scary thing.
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dominus – the simple and natural fact of the matter is that human beings don’t abstain! The majority of western catholics turn a blind eye to the contraception issue and go ahead and use it anyway, while those in developing countries do not see any flexibility in this dictation from the pope.
Ridding the world of poverty would not solve all problems – what are you thinking of? You clearly live in a different world to the rest of us. Yes, to rid the world of poverty is an admirable aim, and one we should all strive for, however it wouldn’t solve everything, there are other issues out there. To rid the world of religion would solve just as many problems. And just how much more good could the millions of Pounds spent on this “state” visit have done in the developing world? And the vast amounts of money in the Vatican? What is all that for? How about sharing the wealth with the rest of the world a little more?
And what is the issue with homosexuality? I understand that from the perspective of certain senior members of the catholic church, that even to have homosexual thoughts but not to act on them is a sin! And where exactly does this view on homosexuality fit in with the cover up and protection of the child abusing priests who choose to prey on little boys?
I do however agree with your closing statement – happy medium to be found in everything – it is just a shame that the catholic church doesn’t believe this!
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Excellent post Scarlett!
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I completely agree…a really good post and one that sums it up for me. Well done Scarlett.
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Been following this thread and have decided not to get involved but if I had posted I would not have summed it up as well as Scarlett. Very well said indeed.
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Eh claims that “The majority of western Catholics turn a blind eye to the contraception issue and go ahead and use it anyway”.
Well, I don’t know any, who does? Where does this claim come from?
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HM, I know plenty of catholics who use birth control.
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HM – experience, direct knowledge and numerous surveys carried out in a large number of countries.
For example the 2008 survey carried out by The Tablet on practising catholics (ie mass-goers)in England and Wales. (For those who don’t know, The Tablet is a catholic newspaper). so HM, your own cult is telling you that this is the case. Please do some research before jumping down my throat!
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To think this thread was about some schoolchildren having been chosen to see the Pope in person, what joy they must feel to meet this man, regardless of religion, and here we are arguing about the intricacies of religion, rather than celebrating the achievement of these up-and-coming adults.. I’m a devout Catholic, and I’ll leave it to one word … Conscience.
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Why have the Catholic Church such a hang up about sex?
Priests must be celibate, no sex before marriage, don’t wear a condom, HIV cannot be prevented?
If you keep a young man sexually repressed he will express his feelings with those around him… young vulnerable people.
If the Catholic Church started to live in the 21st century things may just start to change…
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Now I am just waiting for someone to tell me god moves in mysterious ways!!!!
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excellent post Scarlett.
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and HM – I have the pleasure of living in Italy – what I would call the Catholic capital of the world and I can assure you that alot of people here use contraception.
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The Catholic Church doesn’t actually have any hang ups with sex, because sex should be the culmination of the fullest kind of love between one man and one woman.
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dominus – the thread started with kids going to see the pope – which threw up a huge irony to start with, listening to their innocent, inculcated adoratiion of the smoke-signalled chosen one. BBC Guernsey interviewers asked decently of their feelings about the pope and they replied in clipped, well-heeled and well- spoken eulogy, but sadly, only reflected 100% their parents’ or teachers’ experience and influence. the decent interviewers did not ask how they felt about so many of the pope’s priests sexually and otherwise abusing so many similar children, in so many countries, for so many years. … and you call this ‘arguing about the INTRACACIES of religion??!’
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I prefer Paul Daniels. His illusions are better but even he does not believe they are real.
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Ah, Italy…. lucky you ex pat.
Dominus – I respect your beliefs, and can assure you that I do have faiths, although not affiliated to any religion, good or evil, so I have to say, each to his or her own. I was in Rome just after a prior Pope returned from America (John
Paul?) and was in the Vatican City at the time he addressed a mass of people, some 250,000 believers. The crowd feel was interesting, but despite the seemingly well thought out barrier system, the whole thing degenerated into unmitigated bedlam and as such, quite scary.During the Pope’s address, in many languages, he coughed badly; there I thought, is tomorrow’s headline and, it was. This evening on Sky news, great importance was levied on the fact that the Pope did a “first” and shook hands with a lady cleric, tomorrow’s papers will undoubtedly make much of this triviality.
Tell me, why is the Catholic wealth so unevenly distributed? I saw outside the Vatican many beggars, I have seen massive wealth poured into churches and huge poverty hand in hand, all over the world, people living in holes in the ground near massive monuments of worship. Pope Benedict seems to me to be jolly and worldly, although somewhat vain man, why does he have to wear such gaudy vestments, the simple white coat is much more becoming in this day and age of the credit crunch.
As for a State occasion, not sure if this is really the case; H M is head of the church of England and can presumably invite who she wants to, but there has been none of the normal ceremonials attached to this one, Dave Cameron is up for an audience tomorrow, but then the Queen again gives the orders, not Parliament.
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“The Catholic Church doesn’t actually have any hang ups with sex”
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh that’s funny.
That’s right dominus! The church has no hangups, as long as it’s missionary position between a dominant man and subservient women who are married and are happy to have many more children!
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Not at all Dean, that’s what the Church is perceived to believe / do but is not what she stands for at all. It’s all about mutual respect of the man and woman. THe man should be no more dominant that a woman. Both are made and equally different.
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While I do not believe everything the Catholic church teaches,I feel I need to answer those who would do away with all religion.A state without religion has been tried,the results have been Russia where Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions of his own people plus those from other countries.Then there was Germany where Hitler gassed millions,and laid waste to so many countries.
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why guernsey kids being sent to see the Pope? Have they been naughty?
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The same people who moan about teenagers having no morals are the same people moaning about these children being offered the chance to celebrate their religion which will, with any luck, cement a good moral ground that they will use to make decisions for themselves later on in life. Regardless what you think of religion, these children are being offered a chance to do something, as practicing Catholics, may be the most important thing they will ever get the chance to do. I am not religious and it is easy to judge the Papacy however these children are excited and honoured and I for one hope that this experience will serve to enhance their spiritual and moral beliefs.
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MissDemeanour – thank you! :)
I was in contact today with some of the children who came into close contact with the Pope and they were enthralled and so exilerated to go out and be better christians.
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To quote Richard Dawkins – there is no such thing as a catholic child, (nor a muslim one or any other faith for that matter), only a child of catholic parents.
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Dominus
Does being a “better Christian” involve preaching bigotry and hypocrisy, protecting paedophiles etc.?
Gotta love the Pope, he’s morally bankrupt but has millions of brainwashed Catholics bowing at his feet and hanging on his every word. A crazier situation you couldn’t hope to find.
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I . Le Page, Hitler was a devout catholic.
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Of coarse these children were enthralled and exhilarated to be close to the Pope, what after all have they been brought up to believe that he is Gods representative on earth. They are innocent children who believe what their parents, teachers and Priest tells them. They are conditioned to believe in God as we all were as soon as it was possible to get at us. Did you not believe in Father Christmas as child, didn’t you get excited at the thought of seeing him in his Grotto.
The Catholic Church is a whole different ball game of coarse, they not only tell children that the Pope is God’s representative on earth, they also tell them that it was the Jews who killed Christ. And we’ve all seen the consequences of that lie over the last thousand years.
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Bryn:
I was going to say exactly the same thing.
I Le Page:
Not only was Hitler a Catholic (just read a few of his speeches or Mein Kampf and this becomes very clear) but even if he had been… Hitler and Stalin were both fascist dictators with insane ideologies. It was not their atheism that made them want to commit mass-murder – why would the lack of a belief in a god make any difference to that?
I have a feeling you’re going to tell me that atheists have nowhere to get their morals from. My pre-emptive reply is that since most Christians don’t stone children to death for disobeying their parents, for example, they don’t get their morality from their religion but from somewhere else. If being religious makes one moral, why are there so many Catholic priests who abused children?
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Eh – I’m interested to know how you would defines “children.” If I were a 14 year old for example, I’d consider it pretty insulting that people don’t consider me old enough to make my own mind up!
Still, that aside it won’t come as any surprise to you that Professor Dawkins and I don’t see eye to eye on a number of topics. On this occasion though I think he’s got it at least partially right.
Someone is not a Christian (or adherent of any faith) simply because their parents are – it is a decision they must freely make themselves. Nobody’s faith can survive unless it is personal – living off someone else’s simply doesn’t work for long. As sure as night follows day every “believer” will encounter a crisis of faith (both by conflicting arguments and difficult life situations) and in those times people who are living off someone else’s faith will often stop believing – often because they discover that they never really believed it in the first place. This is especially true, I think, for those who were raised in religious homes.
I can’t agree with his assertion that there aren’t any Christian children though: there are children whose family have no faith who have, of their own volition, professed a personal faith in Jesus – and maintained that faith throughout their lives. The reverse is also true – there are children of Christian parents who have firmly rejected the faith of their parents. So clearly, although no reasonable individual would deny the significance of parental influence, in itself that does not define an individual’s belief system.
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PS my personal story is that, although raised in a Christian home, I rejected my parents faith at a pretty early age. I only became a Christian at the age of 28 (after I had moved out) when I had what I would describe as a personal encounter with Jesus (for the record I wasn’t drunk or stoned at the time!!).
Although I would never deny that my parents faith had a significant influence on my life, I am equally certain that my “conversion” was not as a result of their upbringing – it was a personal journey that I took well and truly by myself.
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Come on now VoR, I think “so many Catholic priests who abuse children” is a bit of an overstatement. Most priests are lovely people, it’s a shame the few have tarred the majority with the same brush. Otherwise we could just as easily say “so many nursery workers” or “so many Jersey care workers” are child abusers, given other stories of child abuse that have been reported in the past few years.
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Miss Deameanour – thank you :)
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MissDemeanour:
There are quite a substantial number of Catholic priests who have abused children over the years. I am not suggesting that all, most or even huge numbers of Catholic priests are child abusers. However, if religion made people moral, one would expect there to be no Catholic child abusers at all!
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I cannot remember anyone being killed in the name of atheism, but uncounted millions have died in the name of one god or another. Unfortunately many people alive today will also die in the future in the name of god for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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What a negative thread this has turned into! And I must say, the Catholic Church must take much of the blame in this general attitude which people have towards it. However, all religions have, just like other organizations, communities etc have their failings and corruption. The difference is that, as has been said, the Church is expected to lead by example.
As a Christian, I often feel exasperated by some of the things done in the name of Christianity. On the other hand, the Church is made up of imperfect humans, who are no better than anyone else, despite what they say!
But then I don’t let religion get in the way of my faith!
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Paul Le Page – If a 14 year old is so capable of making up their own mind, why don’t they have a political vote?
Genuinely interested in your “personal encounter” though. Are you willing to give us more information about that? I understand if you wish to keep it private of course.
Donkey’s Wotsits – not negative at all, just a healthy debate!
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Pete, maybe people aren’t killed in the name of atheism but that’s because if people fight for what they believe in, then atheists are left twiddling their thumbs!
On the other hand, atheists may eventually discover that they backed the wrong horse ie. no horse!
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@Pete: Religion doesn’t kill people, people kill people. That’s like saying “I didn’t run the cat over, the car did”.
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A few points:
@Pete – read your history, sir. Try starting with Albania (the self proclaimed first atheist state) then go on to revolutionary France, the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia (under Pol Pot) etc. In all of these regimes people of different religious beliefs were (and in some cases still are) persecuted and killed by “godless” regimes purely due to their adherence to a faith. Nobody (with even a cursory knowledge of history) is suggesting that religious people have done any better of course, but it demonstrates Ron’s point that people will kill for pretty much any ideology you can think of.
@Eh – Happy to oblige on the personal encounter thing. It’s a very long story but I posted a very brief personal account on my blog (http://pdlepage.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-god-changed-my-life-brief-testimony.html) which, although doesn’t give a detailed explanation is a start. Feel free to comment (or get in touch) via the blog.
Interesting question about the voting age. I personally wouldn’t have a problem with 14 year olds voting as the whole question of adulthood is a far broader issue. To take a scientific angle, human beings are the only living creature where adulthood isn’t defined by physical maturity, or to put it more bluntly, breeding age.
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Paul Le Page – As it appears you are happy to take a ‘scientific’ angle on adulthood, are you happy to replicate that stance on ‘god’?
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Paul Le Page
Human beings (or at least some of them) are also the only creatures who believe in God as far as I’m aware, unless of course any animals with a herding instinct are actually holding some form of mass.
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I fail to see how anyone can kill in the name of atheism. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god or gods. There is no ideology at all in atheism because there are no beliefs involved.
Once you start believing in the divinely revealed truth of a book like the Bible, you instantly have at your disposal verses which instruct you to kill atheists (which includes people of other religions, because of course yours is the only god) for instance.
I will admit, however, that it is possible to kill in the name of anti-theism – i.e. the positive belief that religion is bad. This said, most anti-theists don’t go so far as to suggest that the way to solve the problem of the persistence of religion is to kill anyone with religious beliefs. Personally, rational debate is my weapon of choice!
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@VOR – I’m sure the religious people who were killed were really bothered whether it was atheism or anti-theism that motivated their murderers to kill.
Just as you fail to see how anyone can kill in the name of atheism, I fail to see how anyone can kill in the name of Christ who has actually bothered to read his words – “love your enemy” comes to mind for starters. Unfortunately for humanity there are those on both sides who do.
@Bryn – you show me a scientific experiment that is capable of proving or disproving the existence of an omnipotent, omnipresent being and I’ll start using it as a yardstick to define my belief in God.
@Phil – perhaps they are! :-)
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Paul Le Page
Of course it isn’t possible to prove that God doesn’t exist, just as it isn’t possible to prove that a monkey in pink pyjamas doesn’t orbit Mars.
The likelihood of these two examples is about the same though…………
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Exactly my point, Phil! (the fashion conscious monkey bit aside)
If God does exist and is truly God then by nature He transcends the realm of scientific analysis. As the creator of all that we observe and study He would not be subject to the feeble conditions of finite human reasoning. How can the finite test the infinite? It’s like asking an amoeba to study the anatomy of a biologist, except the gap in intellectual capacity is infinitely greater.
Incidentally if you read my post you’d have noticed that not only did I say we cannot prove by scientific methods that God doesn’t exist, I also said we couldn’t prove by the same methods that He does. Given that we all agree on this, why suggest that I apply scientific reasoning to something that transcends it? That was my point to Bryn.
The belief in a deity requires faith – something all Christians are happy to accept – and that’s why people like myself, you and Bryn will never agree!
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Phil
Theres another theory with the same likelihood
and its the belief that life came from none living matter.
Why are so many scientists not convinced? the likes of Francis Collins for example? makes you wonder eh.
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