‘Let courts decide who is guilty of child sex abuse’
Thursday 16th September 2010, 2:30PM BST.
Deputies wants to know why so many child abuse cases are not prosecuted. (Picture posed by model, 1007441)
A DELEGATION of States members is to question the Law Officers about why so few cases of alleged child abuse go before the courts.
It will be led by Deputy Dave Jones, who says he is ‘disgusted’ by the number of assaults of which he has been made aware that are not being prosecuted.
Since the Guernsey Press highlighted the matter in July, many others have come forward to speak of incidents that were investigated by police, who deemed them serious enough for prosecution, but were rejected by the Law Officers.
In particular, Deputy Jones is demanding to know what criteria the Law Officers adopt in deciding whether to take someone to court.
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The powers that be need to wake up and get with the times. By consistently covering up these allegations by not letting them to court will only damage Guernsey reputation unreservadley like Haut Garrene in Jersey. Of course all of this is second to the pyshical, mental, and emaotional pain suffered by the true victims of these crimes.
I must stress though, that the Guernsey culture of name and blame in the Guernsey press, must be looked at with no mention of either victim or perpertrator being named until after the case.
Once the accused is found Guilty by trial of his peers (not a magistrate) then its open day as far as im concerned.
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Maybe the Law Officers are going down the same route as the Catholic Church.
Hide and no worries. Look at how their repute went down because of that. At least the Pope is admitting the sins of a few of his flock. For a man of his age, he is doing his best
The younger lads/lassies working as Law Officers here need to think seriously
Child Abuse, on a back seat because of the age they admit to it? So what age can it be reported and acted upon. Probably until the perpetrator has died or left Guernsey
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I am disgusted that the courts waste time and taxpayer pounds on the ridiculously antiquated conveyancing court at the expense of real cases – especially ones concerning child abuse.
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i think all people involved should be named and shamed i think it is discusting ,and degradeing for those people who pray on young (victims),and try and cover up any wrong doing they have put there victims threw, i myself have 2 daughters i would not let them be harmed let alone let the person get away with it quietly,we all have our own views but all should be dealt with the highest penalties the court can give !!
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I agree with what you are say B.Wyatt-Nicolle with the way Guernsey culture is Names should not be brought into this until after and when found guilty. So are sthe States members saying that the Law officers not doing there job proply? Im sure they do a great job but like everything if ther is lack or no evidence then I beleive these cases should not go to court. I think the Law officers know what they are doing. Leave them do there job.
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The Law Officers reach a decision on whether to prosecute an alleged offender by considering the evidence and determining whether there is a realistic prospect of that person being convicted by the Court. They also take into account the public interest. These are the 2 main things that they consider.
If deputies (or indeed members of the public) have evidence that decisions on whether to prosecute are being taken in bad faith, then they must speak up and make their views public.
However, the reality is that most of these cases are dropped by the Law Officers because there is not enough evidence or the evidence available is of a sort that is not strong enough to get passed the criminal standard of proof that is required to convict somebody. The effect of deciding to prosecute and taking to Court alleged offenders on weak evidence will result in nothing more than the defendants being found not guilty by the Court. I don’t think personally that there are any grounds for conspiracy theories about this.
The Law Officers take decisions based on the evidence and the public interest. If somebody can prove anything to the contrary, then you have a duty to make your concerns knwon to your deputy.
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Chris what can anyone else say you hit the nail on the head. We all understand that there are bad things happening in Guernsey I’m sure we do not know the half of it but without evidence there is nothing that can be done.
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I would like to see more cases being dealt with through the Courts but I have some sympathy with the situation that the Law Officers are in. How would the victim feel if the case went to Court and for whatever reason, there wasn’t enough concrete evidence or some technicality which ended up with a not guilty verdict. I want to see the perpertrators of this nasty work punished severely for what they do, but not at the detriment to the victim being told that they are ‘not guilty’ thorugh a court of law – that must be soul destroying.
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i disagree wit what chris and sarah said. if an allegation of being a pervert is made, i agree wit deputy dave jones, it must go to court, and the courts must decide, even if there’s no evidence, afetr all who knows there’s no evidence until the courts have decided. so if someone makes an accusation, and there’s no evidence, yes, it must go to court in full public with all names printed, so we can know who the perverts are, even if there’s no evidence and the courts acquiit him, because until he is acquiited we don’t know tere isn’t no evidence, do we, so they should be prosecuted in the first place, just to make sure. i know what i’m talking about because my parents knew a pervert once and he wasn’t prosecuted either and they said that was just because there wwasn’t any evidence against him either.
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Cath
I understand where you are coming from but this is a very emotive subject. I agree that I would like to see more people punished for this and more cases going to court, but how do you think the victim will feel if their abuser is taken to court and because of lack of evidence, they are found not guilty? That’s pretty much saying they are innocent and the victim is lying and whilst we know that may not be true, in the eyes of the law, it’s a verdict.
And for the record, I don’t like the word victim but I don’t know what other word to use. I have experienced this second hand (family has been abused) and I would love to see the nonce who abused them punished for what he did (preferably with a rusty knife) but I would also hate to see him go through court and come out with a not guilty verdict because of lack of evidence because what happened was a few years ago. He is already denying all knowledge of what he did and tries to convince people that he is the innocent party and a not guilty verdict would only back him up but I could find a number of people, unrelated and who didn’t know each other, who would all say the same thing about him, including his mother. It’s a very sad fact of Guernsey life.
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cath
Try this for size (Don’t worry, I don’t know you so this won’t happen )
I’m waiting in the rain at my bus stop on the way to an important job interview when you drive by through a puddle and absolutely soak me head to foot
Because the buses only come once every hour I haven’t got time to go home and change so I attend the interview in that state and lose the job of my dreams to GG which made me very angry
Luckily I took your car number and that evening I go to the Police Station and make a statement saying that I had been walking past Vale Infants school when I saw you offering children sweets to get into your car.I then saw you grab a small boy and try to pull him into your car but luckily he struggled and got away.When you realised you were being watched you quickly drove away
There is no other evidence except what I said I saw
Do you think you should be taken to Court and your name put in the paper for something I had made up just to get back at you?
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Cath can I just say I understand what you are saying put like what Ray said you just cant take someone to court with out evidence. Just say you had something against your ex and wanted to hurt him you could go to the police and say I saw him do something to a child it went to court not Gulity and the next day his name was in the paper and adress what do you think would happen then??
It would not happen it can’t happen.
Its a very hard topic and not at all nice.
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Child abuse
This is my reason for taking up this cause.
We have told our children for generations that when people do bad things to them we will protect them and bring those who harm them before the courts. The truth of the matter is that is not what happens in reality, a very large number of cases never get to court for a variety of reasons that at present remain unclear. I have very personal experience of this as one particular case affected my extended family. It started when her 6 year old daughter was sexually assaulted by a young man staying at the house as a guest of her elder brother. The case did not result in a prosecution even though the police at the time were more than happy that they had enough evidence to proceed, the medical evidence backed it up and the young girl gave a very lucid and plausable account of what took place that night. We believed that a court should have taken the decision about who was telling the truth supported by other evidence. Since that time I have been made aware of several cases where a similar situations have arisen with families feeling betrayed by the system and those who have been victims left with a sense of real injustice that the people who harmed them were never brought to book. In my view, the public have a right to expect that justice is seen to be done in open court. I have absolutely no issue with prosecutors being completely independent, I also do not question the integrity of the Law officers. I do have a real problem however with a criminal justice system that appears to constantly fail those who rely on it most, including vulnerable children who have clearly experienced horrific attacks on them, some over a period of years. Now while I accept that the Law officers abide by a strict code that governs these things, as is common with many formal procedures. I do not readily accept any code that is so prescriptive or subjective, I haven’t made up my mind yet which it is, that effectively prevents cases being the subject of the scrutiny and the rigors of lawyers and Judges open court. The Law officers should in my opinion not be acting as an impediment between those who have been offended against and their right to have the offences perpetrated against them dealt with in an open and transparent manner. I share the frustration police officers unquestionably feel on these occasions, when having painstakingly put a case together, charged the alleged perpetrator and advising the victim that it is ready to be put forward for prosecution, it hits the buffers, often because the Law officers take a different view and advise that the evidence may not be enough to secure a conviction.
It cannot be right for any individual no matter how learned they may be, to act as Judge and Jurat, deciding by a stroke of a pen what cases will be put before the courts and those that will fall to the ground. It is neither justice, nor what any fair minded community would consider to be right. It must surely be the decision of a Court to decide whether a case stands up to legal scrutiny and for a Judge together with the Jurats if necessary, to sift through the evidence, listen to the testimony of the victim and any witnesses and to then determine whether the evidence is sufficient or otherwise, either to secure conviction of the defendant or to throw the case out. That is after all, why we call them Judges. I am also intrigued by the other reason given by St James’s Chambers, about what is in the “public interest.” to me the public interest is best served, when they see the criminal justice system working as they have been assured it would. The public interests are best served when those who commit crimes against children are imprisoned for those offences, not walking the streets, free to offend again. There is no easy way for any family to accept that a person accused of the persistent sexual assault of a child should escape retribution, without there at least being a hearing in open court to determine the facts of the matter. One other major problem is that when the Courts have not had the opportunity to review a case, the suspect can continue to be a real threat to other children wherever they are. Offences against children and how we handle them are particularly important, I wonder what kind of message we send to these children, when we say to them, “we believe you, when you tell us that you have been sexually assaulted,” however the person who committed the assault will not be punished for the offence because the case is either to difficult to prove or that someone decided that there was insufficient evidence. Or it is just too expensive to proceed, or it is not in the public interest or for a whole raft of other reasons that mean absolutely nothing to a child who has had their lives decimated in many cases by offences such as these. The whole way theses cases are dealt with and the level of discretion used in deciding who is prosecuted needs some urgent review, in order that families and more importantly the children affected by these offences don’t feel cheated by the very system that was supposed to protect them. The police on occasions encourage the public to come forward and report offences of sexual abuse no matter how long ago the offences took place. I ask you what is the point of that, if any cases that come to light have hardly any chance of coming before a Court. I believe something is seriously wrong here, whether it is a reputation issue for Guernsey, or the fear that the sheer number of cases is too great and will swamp the judicial process or whatever. There has to be a better explanation other than lack of evidence which many of the family’s dispute. I have received several new examples of the failure of our justice system in this regard the last one more harrowing than the one before and I will let you know the outcome of our meeting with the law officers
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But what can happen if there is no or lack of evidence this is what it all goes down too.
I’m sure when these cases have been told to the police thats when interviews etc will take place and if any evidence is found then the Law officers will look into it to see if it will stand up in court. I just feel sometimes people point the finger at others and say things they should not say as it may not be true that is when the trouble begins. If theses cases do go to court with evidence god know what will happen if the names of these people come out.
I have said it from the start no evidence will not stand up in court… To put a child through all that to be told sorry darling he/she will not be sent to prison?
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I have been a victim of child abuse in the channel islands after suffering years of sexual abuse by my stepfather which totally ruined my whole life and family after finally managing to atalk about it to and feeling a great weight had been lifted of my shoulders after years of thinking it was all my fault and crying myself to sleep every night because I loved my mum so much and she never knew what was going on I then spoke out to the guernsey police and after giving a whole life time of times and dates at what happened in great detail I was then told sorry all your evidence is curcumstanial this wont go to court I was so so upset and have now had to leave the island knowing that this man continues to prey on young boys an abuse them how can you prove sexual abuse and how can you not even have a right to a trial and at least let this man stand trial and have to be questioned for what he did to at least try and find him guilty to me this has changed my life I believe that the island cover these cases up all the time and the amount of child abuse that continues is very high and with no chance of anything being dealt with in the correct way how can children speak out like I did.
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I would futher like to add that I have since found out this man is now working in a school at the island of guernsey this is unbelievable
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OMG Jason he is working in a school that is so bad I throught they had to do checks on every teacher/staff member who works with children….
So sorry to read your story of what happened. Do you think that everyone should be taken to court? I think that the Law officers should carry on what they are doing because like I have said and others if there is no evidence.
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after reading all the comments on here I hope the island does do something about it so I can go to court and have my stepfather attend and he can go on trial so he will get found guilty and he wont be working at a school abusing many more children in the future if anyone wants to contact me or can help me from the press please email me as I really need something done
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Sarah, unfortunately it’s quite likely that he could be working in a school. Whilst enhanced security checks are done on everybody working with children, if he has never been tried for a crime, there is nothing to show on the security check and he will pass with flying colours.
Jason, I’m so sorry to hear that you have gone through this and I hope you get both the help and justice that you need. I would suggest you get in touch with Deputy Dave Jones. It’s not my place to publish his contact details but as he’s taken an interest in this, he may do so himself or you should be able to google him in his official capacity as Deputy.
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I feel rather embarassed reading Dave Jones’ comments. He has no grasp of the very fundamentals of the Law, but is obviously a keen Daily Mail reader which appears to be the main source of his rants.
Undoubtedly there are child abusers all over the World who are ‘getting away with it’. But you cannot simply convict anyone for an offence which happened 10,20 or 30 years ago based on verbal evidence.
If the police arrested our extremely well read Deputy for something he ‘allegedly’ did 20 years ago based on the verbal evidence of one individual, me thinks he may just have something to say about it….
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I have a solution to this. Why don’t the States of Guernsey legislate to allow individuals or families to bring private prosecutions against alleged offenders? That way, if the Law Officers do decide not to prosecute in a given case, the victim or the victim’s family can still seek to bring a case with sufficient evidence to Court. They may even qualify for legal aid to do this if they can show good evidence. At present, it is not permissible under Guernsey law to bring a private prosecution; may be this position should be considered first, before people start jumping on the “Guernsey’s all going to Hell in a handcart” style rhetoric… Of course, none of this alters the basic fact that a Court is not going to convict someone of an allegation without there being relevant, admissible evidence proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
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thanks sarah its sad that I have had too leave the island but I dont want to see that man every day. this man has caused years of abuse and is working in a school
I really dont know how to stop this had he gone to court the judge would have decided his fate but what do the authoritys want you to do when your a 5 year old boy get a camera and record someone abusing you and most of the time when these guys are put in court they will crack and admit what they have done but its a walk in the park for these sick people when they get told they dont have too and if they get away with it once they do it again and again
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and as for verbal evidence when you can remember 15 years of a life of abuse and you put all that into a court to the person who has done it times dates the dissgusting things they did dont you think its a bit hard for them to lie in a court
but we dont even get that right I could write a book about this pervert.and I know that if i was face to face in a court with him he would admit everything
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Jason
I hope you get your day in court and this animal is tried for his crimes.
I cant believe the amount (mostly girls) that this has happend to in the past, its shocking.
I think the authorities do know just how much this goes on and many are known to them.
I also get the feeling that D. Jones has a very good point when he says the numbers could swamp the system(or words to that effect).
Trainor
Why dont you try and see that DJ is standing up for the victims and wants to see justice done?
What i`m sure he wants is a fair trial and for a “judge” to make a decision based on the evidence put forward. Where does he suggest that somone should be convicted on just verbal evidence? a lot of things can come out when your stuck in front of a judge and being questioned that otherwise would never come to light.
Is`nt it what these animals rely on to get away with their sick crimes against children “its my word against yours”?
Its what the abuser makes them believe, and they do, well why should`nt they, who they going to turn to, the autorities?
“sorry mate its your word against his” no evidence.
I know from a recent case the police get very frustrated when these animals get away with the things they do and are free to carry on doing it.
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Trainor
You ought to be embarrassed by your stupid comments. The cases I have on my desk are from people who have suffered real trauma as a result of sexual abuse and the failure of our judicial system in bring those who carried out these attacks to book. It is also nonsense to say that prosecutions cannot take place because of the length of time between the offences, there are many examples of successful prosecutions taking place many years after the events took place, recent events in Jersey show that to be the case.
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Chris
How can you say that families should be aloud to have private prosecutions you said if they have sufficient evidence then they should be taken to court. But if there was sufficient evidence in the first place then the Law offices would of taken them to court like I have always said you need evidence in the first place.But what if say mummy has split from daddy and starts to think up things in her head to get at daddy then says daddy has been doing nasty things to there daughter then its ok for mummy to take daddy to court have his name dragged through the courts and front page of the Guernsey press because mummy wanted to hurt daddy. That can’t happen everyone would be to scared to go out or bath there child or go to a school play etc….
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I know of somebody in fact 2 people who were accused of abuse by a family member who were in fact totally innocent. So there are vindictive cows around.
if you know for a fact a child is being abused and the law wont do anything expect the vigilantes to use there own law.
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Dave Jones:
Ask the law officers how they would go about putting a young child in court to give evidence. In fact, I’ll save you the time and tell you – they don’t do it.
The courts have special measures available to protect young children from the stress involved in giving evidence in court – however in Guernsey the Law Officers refuse to use them. Therefore, the primary witness cannot give evidence = no case to answer. I suspect if you can find a way of forcing the Law Officers to make use of special measures you will be more than half way to your objective of getting more cases to court.
Good luck in your quest.
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Sarah,
I’m not sure I entirely follow your last posting but what I meant arises because lawyers very often have different opinions on what “sufficient evidence” really means in a given case. If there was a legal provision to bring a private prosecution in Guernsey, then the following scenario could occur: the Law Officers might decide in a given case that charges will not follow due to a perceived lack of evidence and / or because it is considered that there is no public interest in prosecuting; but then a private lawyer may advise a family that a case against the accused could be arguable on the facts if certain steps were taken to get the case ready for trial.
All I was saying really was why not give private citizens the scope to consider taking further action themselves (via a private prosecution) if there is a perceived lack of faith in the public agency charged with the duty of bringing proceedings against criminal offenders.
Truth Man
It is not the case that special measures are routinely ignored by the Law Officers. If there are grounds for believing that a witness may need assistance in giving their evidence, either by giving their evidence by way of video link or from behind a screen, the Law Officers will often apply in Court for permission or leave to use such devices to protect the alleged victims. They do not refuse to use them.
What is your evidence for that extraordinary proposition?
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I totally agree with Ray,
Cath you’re approach wouldn’t really work,
you can’t print the names of people that have been accused of a crime they haven’t done.
SS
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Chris:
If you are saying the Law Officers make the applications, are you also saying it is the court that refuses to hear the evidence by use of Special Measures by refusing the applications?
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@sarah and chris, – all this talk of not enough evidence etc, did you read one of the case stories? a little girl had a medical examination which proved damage had been done. she was put under, and a proper examination was done. she could not sit in the bath for weeks after. hard medical fact – not enough evidence? and the family of the accused has a history of abusing children.
so the public interest is also high here.
an old man puts a shed up in his garden, without planning permission and he is taken to court.
a person is caught with a tiny amount of cannabis for personal use, not causing harm to anyone else apart from themselves, fined and sometimes prisoned.
a father rapes his three-year old and nothing gets done – there is something seriously up here.
and no, there is no checks on the island for that sort of thing, we have no sex offenders register and anyone coming into the island to work do not have to claim any previous convictions, so abusers are working in schools and near our kids – are you not concerned about this, or are you more concerned about our beloved guernsey getting a bad name?
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The problem is that the vast majority of the time it really is the child’s word against the adult’s. There are seldom any witnesses and as Jason mentioned, you’re hardly going to film somebody abusing you. Unless the adult involved admits to having done it when they are arrested, there is very little that can be done besides keep an eye on the situation.
It is not the fault of the law officers that there is no evidence, it is just a fact of life that this sort of crime is very difficult to detect. A similar problem is to be found with rape within a relationship, for example. Without any evidence besides the verbal account of a child, it is a waste of taxpayers money attempting to prosecute somebody who is clearly going to be found not guilty anyway (regardless of whether they did anything or not).
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I think many people are missing Dep Jones main point.
The police HAVE gathered substantial evidence and put a case together -evidence which the police believe is strong enough to go to court and win. The police charge the perpetrator and advise the victim.
THEN it is the “Law Officers” who are neither police officers nor judges take it upon themselves to arrogantly decide if the case would be won or lost and if they think (based on their own layperson unqualified opinion) the case would be lost then they throw out the painstakingly gathered police evidence and dont allow the case to proceed.
The “law officers” are assuming the role of “preliminary judge” – a role they are neither entitled to nor qualified. Who are they to say whether the case would be won or lost? THAT IS THE ROLE OF A (QUALIFIED) JUDGE.
Let the Judge decide.
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I just want to add that its not that the Law Officers have no qualifications – they are lawyers – but there seems to be no standard nor transparent criteria of whether to put a case through or not. It really is just opinion.
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sometimes when they are in court they hear all the facts then they could be caught out or admit to it but not if we cant get them there in the first place i think a lie detector is what they need even though they are not one hundred percent they use them on jeramy kyle and how many would admit to it before going on the detector because they know they are lying
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Cherry, Hi I total agree with that that case should of gone to court after that poor little girl was looked at and could not even sit down in the bath it is sick… I’m not sure why this one didn’t go to court but not all cases have enough evidence to go to court thats all I was saying.
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