‘I’m stuck here due to HSSD’
Monday 27th September 2010, 2:29PM BST.
A LATVIAN woman who claims she is the victim of a Health and Social Services administrative error might be forced to go back home with no job and no money.
Since 2004, Irina Presnakova has been working in Guernsey for nine months and going home for three to meet the terms of her short-term housing licence.
In June, HSSD, for whom she has worked under licence since 2007, told the 35-year-old she could return to the island for another nine months as an assistant housekeeper at the hospital. But she has now heard a licence was not granted as HSSD failed to advertise the job locally.
If the single mum cannot find another job by 6 October she will have to return to Latvia with no money for her two children and sick mother. But if she stays in the island after that date she will be living here illegally.
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Why is this making news? Local people are having just as much trouble finding money, why should a Latvian get first dibs? Just go home, you’ve lost.
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I agree with GG . At a time of relatively high unemployment, there are far too many immigrant workers on such a small island
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This is making the news because, a person on a short term licence, i.e 9 months, has been given her notice by her employer ( the HSSD) after already working in that job for 2 months of the 9 month period,
because,
her employer ( HSSD) failed to advertise that particular post and the housing department ( another states department) has said she is not entitled to stay due to her employers mistake.
If i was an immigrant worker who spent money on air fares, rented accomodation etc and had actually started work, then to be told to leave the island because of a paperwork issue(civil servant mistake?) i would probably be a little upset to.!!!! ( and would probably contact the press myself to highlight my situation)
I’d be even more upset knowing that HSSD actually provide housing for other cleaning staff, therefore avoiding the housing and right to work issues, but they could’nt help my situation.
and before the usual immigrant workers go home and high unemployment numbers debate, here’s my take on the situation:-
visit the PEH, castel, King Edward, care homes etc and see how much ‘local’ labour is employed by HSSD.
Without them these places would’nt be a clean environment and patients would’nt have nurses looking after them!!
as for the unemployed in Guernsey, i wonder how many would actually want to work 25hrs per week, split shifts and weekends to get paid a wage, when they could sit on their backside 24/7 and receive benefits.
and GG, its comments like yours that makes me so proud to be a Guernseyman. I do hope however your a foreigner and you take some of your own advice in this caring, sharing, tolerant little island, if you don’t like immigrants why don’t you emigrate.!!
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Once again, another lets go to the press and they will print my sob story and everyone will feel sorry for me….. There aren’t enough jobs for the locals so why are immigrant workers still being given these jobs? Good to see housing doing the right thing for once.
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GG & AA – you may not like the island’s employment laws but IF Ms Presnakova is to be believed she was perfectly entitled to come here to work legally. After all, she’s entitled to presume that a States department knows the island’s employment laws and has ensured they are acting within them before offering her a job.
Even more ironic is that, presuming Ms Presnakova is telling the truth, you’re using this story to complain about immigrant labour when it was the actions of a local HR department that caused this mess?! IF Ms Presnakova is found to be correct, the best solution I can think of is to sack the HR staff who messed her around and give her a job in their place. Given the aggravation they’ve put her through I can’t imagine she’d make the same mistake they did!
Having said all that, I would still be interested to know HSSD’s version of the story. I’m not simply presuming that Ms Presnakova’s story is 100% accurate.
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Gregory Gregson
Did you read the article at all? doesn`t seem like you did.
Where did she or anyone else say she should be first to get the job.
HSSD have admitted the mistake which has left her in a bad situation,she came here after being led to believe there was work for her.
Your all heart.
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If I want to work in Latvia do you think the government would kindly make a job available for me by putting a local on the dole? Seems reasonable to me, what do you think my chances are?
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It has nothing to do with the origin or roots of this person, and everything to do with the States who have a ridiculous system of one seperate section issuing the housing licence, after or before the employer offers the job.
It is even more galling that a States employer failed to ensure there was a guarantee from the States up front for the licence.
This is not the first time and will not be the last.
Hopeless SOG.
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The system lacks clarity for the applicants. Really HSSD should have done better to explain the process. The short term application form has to be completed by three parties. The employer, the candidate and the candidate’s landlord. Therefore they need to be in Guernsey and they need to be in rental accommodation. The form then takes around 6-8 weeks to get processed by housing . They then give them an exemption certificate after they have submitted the application which enables them to commence employment. No candidate is going to come over, stay here for two months paying rent fees and living expenses to see if they will be granted their 9 month licence (back dated to when they arrived on the island). However a lot of applicants simply don’t understand that they are requesting permission to work and live in Guernsey for 9 months and see it more as a given. As Ms Presnakova has never had a licence declined then why would she think any differently?
There can be a lot of reasons why an application is declined and one of them can be because the employer did not advertise locally (as housing ask for proof that this was done). The process can be incredibly complicated and unless you are well experienced of completing these forms and know the easy reasons for why housing would decline applicants then things can be overlooked. I’ve had many applicants turn up with the blue short term licensing form thinking it’s a simple process and they can start work. They don’t understand that I have to endeavour to find local staff first (and during the last two years is really not that difficult), they may have their licence declined as they haven’t had a clear 3 month break (housing are really strict on this and will decline even if you are just one day out), that you don’t have proof that you left the island and returned (i.e. flight tickets), that they job isn’t considered essential even if you have advertised locally and even if you have declared all details of applicants who applied for the role (par names of course).
Ms Presnakova, I’m sure, is not aware of the full process and the reason for these measures. But really what she should be aware of is that there is no guarantee that when you come to Guernsey that you will be granted a 9 month licence and able to stay and work rather than coming to Guernsey for an actual job. Unless you’re an essential worker it doesn’t work like that. You take the risk sometimes it pays off sometimes it doesn’t. If she doesn’t want the risk then perhaps Jersey would be a better option or even the UK as it’s part of the EU now.
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Iactually have worked with this ladyat h.s.s.d. and can verify that her story is true.h.s.s.d, is entirely to blame for this mistake. she has done absolutely nothing wrong,and I think that she should recieve some sort of compensation from the states.
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Beanjar Im sure you’d love working for the low wages that you’d get in Latvia,oh and are you going to learn Latvian?
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I think I just need to clarify a few points here.
Firstly Lynnie is right; every employer has to advertise any local job first in the island before they apply for a licence to bring someone in to fill the post. This rule applies to absolutely everybody including all States departments. The terms and conditions of any licence is explained to the applicant when they take the job and no one should have any expectation that the licence will be renewed or extended at the end of the licence term. Now clearly in this case there has been a breakdown in communication, which has caused some confusion in the case of this particular employee. I don’t agree that the system is complicated and yes we will issue a temporary document while police and other checks are carried out, however this temporary document is NOT a licence it just allows someone to take a job in the interim period as we recognise that some applications do take time to process. If all is well and the necessary checks are OK and no local person can be found, then the actual licence will be issued, backdated to the date the applicant started work. All this ought to be explained by the prospective employer at the time any job application is made. As you are aware, our unemployment figures remain stubbornly high and we will continue to adjust the number of short term licences issued in order to try and match local people with local jobs with the help of SSD staff. Of course one of the flaws in our system is the fact that you can just arrive on Guernsey and find legal accommodation and then hunt for a job. That is because ours is a Housing Control Law, not an immigration law, The States has NEVER had a population or proper immigration policy, just control of occupation. That’s why the law needs to change and the Policy council is working on the new law as we speak. You can get a right to work document at present IF you can prove you are legally housed, which is the only bit of that procedure that interests Housing. Of course if you are not in open market and need a licence to occupy local market property, then we will not issue that licence until we are sure that there are no local people available to fill the post. Which I think is where we started from.
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usual brainless, xenophobic reaction from the usual suspects. the island’s infrastructure would fall apart without foreign workers who are generally harder working than many locals. the local workers who would normally be available in service and caring jobs are in finance and their satellite occupations. this woman should sue hssd for their negligence.
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Beanjar:
Since you are lucky enough to live in a place where there are more jobs than people, and more opportunities than opportunists I suspect you will happily remain in your little cocoon and never find out the answer to your question.
In any case, it is a pointless question to ask in this case, because the scenario you pose did not happen here either.
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Dave Jones did you ever follow up on Flybe when they were granted a handful of licences earlier this year for First Officers despite interviewing 5 local people?
They all had the relevant qualifications but still did not get the job, 2 months later and the vacancies had been filled by people who had been granted a licence.
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If this lady was to find a local boyfriend and go live with him,would she then be able to stay in the island and get a right to work document?
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Captain Oveur
We do not interview Airline pilots, that is the job of the airline and they choose the best qualified pilots for the job, if some of those pilots need licences then they would have to prove to us that there were no local pilots with the same qualifications they require to take up the posts before those licences were issued.
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It’s quite easy for companies to simply say that the local staff are over qualified and get some cheap foreign workers…
I. Le Page, I believe they can, but they have to sleep in the same bed.
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Greg Gregson (GG) –
Employers cannot state that local applicants are ‘over qualified’ on short term licence forms. They could only state that they don’t have the necessary qualifications/experience needed, however, 9 month licences tend to be for unskilled work therefore it’s difficult to prove that local applicants were not suitable. In most cases if employers were unable to get local applicants it was because none applied or they wished to work hours which were not feasible for the job but again they have to prove this.
You’re very quick to comment on things you don’t seem to know a lot about. I would do your research first before making sweeping statements.
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At least she wants to work and probably works very hard.
i have been trying to employ local people for months now but none of the currently unemployed I have seen have the necessary work ethic. They want something for nothing.
If I could I would employ her immediately.
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Lyn- I do not believe that,there may be some like that,but Im sure there are some who would bite your hand off!Or maybe you want blood?
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Indeed Lynnie, you have shown our old friend GG, or Greg as he now likes to be known, to be the same poor contributer to these forums as ever, takes more than a name change, eh GG…give it up sir. you been rumbled.
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Gregory Gregson what a dreadful comment to make, I hope you never have to use facilities operated by HSSD because you would be hard pressed to find a local, and by the way they are probably doing jobs locals will not do. It seems as if it was a clerical error, surely they can sort out this problem by letting her stay her allocated time,she will just blend in to the already overcrowded island we live in.Poor lady she has done everything by the law (which can be more than said for a few over here) and she still gets castigated.
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Lyn:
I am glad you said that – it is interesting to hear from an employers perspective.
I have long felt that the welfare state is dragging us down (same happens in the UK with a lead on us). Giving people something for nothing sends out the wrong message. Some children are now 3rd and 4th generations of claimants from welfare state, so there are some very well established family lines who have grown up believing things come to them – not that they have to go out and get them legitimately.
It would be like me giving everything to my child without teaching her that she actually needs to try to achieve to earn things. That would not be good parenting. Similarly our current welfare state is not good for our community or economics.
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Lyn,
If you`re desperate for staff, and you`d have to be, maybe you should try DECAFE, apparently, according to their postings on the closure of the said cafe, there are loads of youngsters ready to bite your hand off for a job. YEH RIGHT!!! and my Dad`s Dave Jones (God forbid).
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@NOCON
Some years ago I used to help out regularly at DeeCafe but i got disillusioned because i felt that a lot who used Dee cafe were looking for someone else to solve their problems and not willing to either try to help themselves or help others.
i recognise that a number of youngsters who use DeeCafe have issues and need help and also someone to listen to them or take interest in them. I tried but when you have driven yourself and your own children to make the most of what you have sometimes you feel like saying to these youngsters ” wake up and do something for yourself”
@I le Page
Believe what you want. I am regularly looking for staff and despite my best efforts often find that local younsters want something for nothing. They believe the Island and those who own businesses on the Island owe them a job. This is not true of all and I have some excellent local staff BUT I do find the work ethic of others who come to the island looking for work significantly better. I also find that older local staff have a much better work ethic.
I do not ” look for blood”. I offer very good pay and conditions because I recognise that a happy and contented member of staff is a loyal member of staff and will represent my company much better. My staff work with me not for me and I ensure that if my business prospers they also prosper.
I feel very sorry for Ms Presnakova. HSSD have mishandled the situation. She was not taking a job away from locals as many have said on this blog. She would have had to apply for the job the same as any local would have done and was obviously better qualified than any local applicants. To make her leave the island in this way reflects very poorly on Guernsey.
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Lyn-I know somebody local with over 30 years of work experience and some qualifications,who has been out of work for 10 months.Not knowing what business you run, cant say if they applied for any of your vacancies.I feel sorry for the way Irina has been treated,but the States need to reduce the foreign workforce by about 300 or so to reduce the unemployment rate.Since she has been doing that job for a few years she is bound to be the best qualified,but with a little training most local unemployed could do it.
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Dave Jones,
A query re your statement of ‘the system is not complicated’.
How is it, when a States employer – e.g. health, or T&R, is unable to recruit locally for a particular role, and has been unable to do so for say over 5 to 10 years, that when the employing area of the States makes a recommendation for a 15 year licence this is rejected?
There are a number of roles in areas of unusual skillsets or experienc that, because the applicant isn’t “one of the boys” seem to have been overlooked. The criteria for rejecting an application don’t seem transparent to me.
I don’t think you, or others in the States, have any appreciation how much distress is invoncenience is caused to those people who come to our Island, to live and then have to leave. This is the case regardless of period in attendance (9 months, 3 or 5 years etc). It is particularly galling to see good people, with a lot to offer have to leave – and these are people who pay taxes and support locals in rentals etc and in some longer term cases, have established complex family and social networks.
Further, some people are issued with 15 year licences well before a ’5 year’ period is up, whereas others are required to work until year 5 then leave, or undergo a small extension or another year or two.
I would like to see a disclosure or publication that demonstrates why applicants are granted with a 15 year licence, or why they are rejected. I suspect the answer to this will be a ‘privacy’ smokescreen to hide behind when in fact this is public interest material.
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Darren
unrelated to this article but……..
“States, have any appreciation how much distress is invoncenience is caused to those people who come to our Island, to live and then have to leave.”
Not as much stress as parents who have lived and contributed all through their lives, put their kids through education and tried to get jobs back in the Island only to find their’s a squatter in any given position.
I’ve worked in a number of countries under licence (work permit) fully aware when my time was up.
The concept isn’t hard. You are granted a period of time in a country to do a specific task and when your time is up you go.
Guernsey has a finite amount of resources, housing jobs and space and it has to manage its population.
People with fixed-term licences should be preparing for their departure like all transient working populations do anywhere else in the world.
Even more so now with rising unemployment.
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