Family business threatened as planners say it must quit shop
Saturday 16th October 2010, 2:29PM BST.
Squire, Troy and Marguerita Waterman cannot afford another move and are fighting to save their business. (Picture by Adrian Miller, 1039352)
A FAMILY are fighting to save their business after falling foul of planning rules.
The Watermans poured thousands of pounds in life savings into Griffins Grotto gift shop at Perelle Bay in St Saviour’s 18 months ago, a site once home to clothing firm Le Tricoteur.
But they say that, unknown to them until recently, the premises were not classed as a shop – although people had traded there for more than 50 years.
A retrospective application to Environment has been turned down, plunging the family into crisis. Now they say their only hope is to appeal.
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I remember going there when it was Perelle Bakery which was around 30 years ago to buy bread/cakes and since then to buy from Le Tricotuer.
So daft to say it can’t be ‘offically’ a trading/shop premisses.
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How can you suddenly decide after 50 years that this is not a shop. As the previous poster said, I also remember buying cakes from Perelle Bakery many years ago. This is just another example of bad government. I feel sorry for these people – trying to make a go of a small business in difficult times – you’d think the authorities would try to support them, instead they are doing just the opposite.
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This is a classic Guernsey fudge. The rules around change of use are truly barking. There has clearly been a retail element on this site for as long as almost anyone can remember and by the sound of it an industrial use is just not welcome by the neighbours. There is another case like this in the North of the island where not a soul wants a light industry in the property and even the neighbours have asked for change of use to retail (even though it has a retail history). Refused. Everyone looses out and planning busts another business on a site used for years for similar things. Clearly commerce and employment don’t get out enough and talk to the Guernsey public and like to hide behind policies that bear no resemblence to what the island needs. The island needs retail where customers want to go and shop. If Fred in the shed wanted light industrial where the States say they SHOULD want it; why are there so many empty properties of this type? Many classed as light industrial are just too small or don’t have good enough access. Time there was an policy that allows for some common sense!
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more proof of how the teachings of 1940 till 1945 are still in force,
Time that Guernsey people stood up to these bullies.
I’m not against reasonable laws, but in this case the place has has several owners., and always run as a shop.
Next election should clear the board and start afresh- with people with a human way about them.
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Do the “planners” have nothing else to do than to go around every building, fence, plant, door, wall, brick or any other substance on the island?
Why don’t they stop those crappy buildings being built at Admiral park etc when there are lots of offices sat empty in town?
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For goodness sake Gsy authorities, show some mercy and leave this poor family alone.
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The trouble is, its not the Deputies who make this kind of decision, its the all powerful civil servants.
What we need at the next elections are candidates who pledge to clip the wings of these paladins.
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Environment dept why now! people have been trading there for 50 yrs this should have been sorted yrs ago, this is a decent shop, you can now see why shops or businesses give up and that is why guernsey have no decent shops, the environment are part of states of guernsey which have ruined this island even as much as me a local wanting to live some ware else
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i am gutted that yet again small businesses that are out of town are coming under threat for antiquated laws that do not serve the island or its people. I have medical issues that mean being in town or among large groups of people terrify me and i rely on the smaller out of town businesses for everything. Griffins Grotto is a lifeline for me as i can cater for all gifts for all ages and any occasion without the fear of going into meltdown or having a panic attack. closing this particular business for a law that should have been changed years ago is in my opinion immoral and i feel the local people need to make a stand and save them! I for one will do whatever it takes to keep the waterman’s at perelle they are now a firm and vital fixture to our west coast. Good luck i am behind you 100%.
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Another prime example of our civil servants living in their own bubble, divorced from the real world and totally unaccountable for their jobsworth attitudes.
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Hi.
Clearly someone isnt doing their job properly. This seem to be happening alot lately and I feel its about time someones head should roll!!!
GD.
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If u all also contact deputies/planning dept. Via letter or email, i have been told they take more notice as they don’t read comments on here. That’s not to say stop commenting tho. It’s lovely to see local people supporting their local shops so keep that support going by making ur selves heard. Has anyone from Guernsey Enterprise shown any support for this small locally run business?
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It is as an earlier poster stated it is not the Board but the civil servants that need to be replaced, little men with to much power not even a Guernseyman someone brought in who is a planner!
Small Guernsey bussiness are all going to the wall because of these so called planners!. It really is time that us Guerns stood up to these Civil servants, look at the mess they have made of the road system, why have a major road closed when it could be worked on of a night as it would be in England, a few people would be upset with the noise but then it would only be for a couple of nights till they moved to the next section.
It is a joke the way that civil servants treat the public, and we pay their wages.
They hide behind the shroud that they are not aloud to comment, rubbish (That is another topic eh)
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This is symptomatic of everything wrong and hateful about the Planning Dept.Weak politicians with no control over their own civil servants and dogmatic jobsworths bereft of any common sense and even less consideration of what Guernsey needs or wants.It beggars belief that taxpayers(including these small shopkeepers) are paying for some clown to decide their thoroughly decent business should be closed down.These individuals of the enforcement department at planning are beneath contempt.The politicians at Planning)need to explain why they clearly have allowed crass stupidity to reign but I’m not holding my breath.I have spoken with a member of the Planning committee on an identical matter and he sheepishly admitted they are subservient to their own mandarins.The rule book is king but you will never find let alone control who writes the book.
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My vies is that those in Planning i.e. Politicians and Planners should be aware of the far reaching implications of following those current Island laws – which have become outdated. Take, as a parallel, for example Tomato packing sheds which are not allowed to be used for things other than Tomato packing etc.
Our small shops and businesses are rapidly disappearing and the island loses its tourist appeal.
Leale’s yard used to provide for the Fred in the Sheds – they are disappearing and we will be left with UK stores moving in – OK great news and money for the Island Co-op and its Directors, but no individuality left for tourism.
Just how many local shops have we left now?
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I fully support the planners. What they are dealing with is the retail USE of the building. A retail use in a non-retail area will draw trade away from established retail centres (defined in the local plan), then resulting in vacant premises in these centres. Safeguarding the health and vitality of retail centres is surely a sound planning decision and not any personal indictment on Griffins Grotto or any other retail use wanting to locate itself there.
Therefore, Ray’s Lad, calling planners clowns is a bit short sighted and unfair. Think of the bigger picture!
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When you step back from using the heart to using the head then Steevo has got it right
Memo to myself. If I ever want to change the use of land or buildings check with environment first
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i totally agree with 99% of the comments made by the writers , It is time something was done . WHAT i really do not know, Maybe if the head planner was local he would know some of the history ,to me it seems all they want to do is make life as hard as possible for the true Guernsey folk after all all we want to do is make a living in such a hard time.I Had a company at Leales yard so i found another work shop so i could carry on with my trade went to the I.D.C for a change of use to be told no their reason was the biggest load of rubbish i have ever heard .If they carry on taking industrial land away from us to build offices or houses on then they MUST replace with land for small businesses .My fingers are crossed for Griffins Grotto i really hope you get some where with this but until things change with the planners i dont hold much hope (sorry)
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Let me draw you to the fact Steevo that there has been some form of retail there for many years long before many other places. As for drawing away trade from retail centers how big do you think this little island is plus it did not stop all the garages around the island turning into supermarkets. (resulting vacant premises in these centers) you will find that is often due to the very high rents or maybe you would prefer the tourists and residents to hear the sound of industry machines in a rural area rather than have a gift shop/place of interest for them. Yes that really is a sound planning? decision
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Please please please can all locals get together and put an end to the states who are making these decisions they have messed this island up and it is only the beggining just take a look whats going on we are having to pay for there mistakes big time the most expensive place to live nearly.
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This is ridiculous. The states are getting rid of too many local businesses when really they should be supporting them. Even though I have never been to Griffin’s Grotto myself, I will wholeheartedly support their cause because in my opinion with all the finance buildings popping up all over the place, Guernsey is starting albeit slowly to become over commercialised like Jersey. Now if you were a true local then you would want to hold on to the traditional shops that have made Guernsey interesting to visitors. I myself work part time in a visitor attraction, and I always enjoy meeting the visitors that come to a place of interest. Save Local Businesses, people before we get too over ran by commercialism.
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Ray …. The unit being leased to Griffins Grotto is the one with the shop frontage. This has ALWAYS been used as retail, (bakery, knitwear, and even a previous gift shop run by the Tricouter,(The Gift Shack), so why would there be any reason to think another gift shop could not continue to trade there as the previous one had done? The 2 light industrial units that were occupied by the industrial side of the former businesses are empty plus u don’t see many, if any, reasonably priced vacant retail units around. There ARE, however, plenty of suitable industrial and office units away from residential areas. (We would rather have a beautiful Gift shop with friendly chatty staff as neighbours in a quiet residential country lane than an industrial business that is more than likely going to disturb our piece and quiet and not look “inkeeping with the surrounding area)! For Goodness sake, we are talking about a small “country style” shop here, run by a true local family who offer traditional friendly helpful service!! It’s in the ideal surroundings for that type of shop, it appeals to locals and tourists! It’s not some huge imposing complex and is no threat to anyone least of all to the larger retail sites that appear to be springing up around similar areas in Guernsey. A little commen sense in this case please guys! Come on we need little shops like this to keep our Island’s identity and “picturesque looks” (is that the right phrase of words)? I would also really like to know re my previous post if Guernsey Enterprise who are supposed to lend support to local people and their businesses are supporting this particular local business.?
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Whilst that has been retail there for many years, the retail was an outlet for the products being made directly on the site, be it bread or jumpers.
This is a shop only, so there is a difference to what is there now to what had been there, perhaps this is what the Planner’s have issue with.
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Firestorm, I was of the understanding that the primary use of the building has never been retail (Le Tricotuer was primarily a manufacturing use with a small amount of incidental retail. Similarly, a bakery would be in the same spirit). Therefore, the solely retail use proposed by Griffins Grotto is not established on the site. You ask if I’d prefer the amenity of tourists and residents to be disturbed by industrial machines – of course I wouldn’t and I doubt the Development Plan would allow any new use to anyway. I’m a bit too young to remember, but did either of the two above-mentioned businesses create much disturbance when they were there?
No, I don’t want to see vacant premises, but it’s market forces dictating which businesses are successful. If a site becomes vacant then there’s nothing stopping a suitable business from locating there if it accords with the Development Plan. If, over time, centres don’t work then the Plan should be reviewed, but until it does then you have to stick with the Plan you’ve got and it has to be used in a consistent manner.
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Talikng about retail use how come stan brouard can retail out of a shed when fruit export was always denied permission.
If you check with the states they say oh that building has no classification,or the retail element is ancillary to his main business as it takes up less than a third of his total shed area.
Now he is building another 70,000 sq foot of shed and for what.
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@ Steevo…
Yours remarks are very direct. I know a planner who goes by the nickname Steevo !
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Steevo you say market forces are dictating which businesses are successful it looks more like the planning is dictating which ones will be successful. Planning is supposed to decide which is right and which is wrong in these matters but all they seem to do is read from a rule book and take everything literally word for word if that’s the case then there is no need for these departments we can just read the rule book.
There are so many planning decisions recently that are just so morally wrong and defie all belief it seems somebody at planning does not have a clue what they are doing. Well it seems to be coming to a head now as so many people are getting fed up with these ludicrous decisions.
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Firestorm, would Griffins Grotto not be successful if were located in an established retail zone? Having a retail use in a non-retail location will serve to draw trade away from established zones and make them suffer.
I wonder what it is you find wrong with using a rule book. Planning deals with lots of issues – if, for example, a proposal was threatening your personal amenity, would you like the rule book to be adhered to? Or would you prefer it if planners didn’t take it word for word? My point is you either have a rule book, or you don’t. If you don’t, that means you’re living in an anarchic state where anyone can do what they want!
If you find a decision ludicrous, contact the officer involved and ask for their reasoning, perhaps asking which policies the application was assessed against. You’re perfectly entitled to do so.
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Steevo not everything in life is black and white there are too many variables. Many great people of there time were seen at the time as rule breakers. I think your anarchic state where anyone can do what they want is a slight exaggeration. If you go against what the people want this will be what starts discord in society. What I am to understand is Griffins Grotto has already gained massive support. At the end of the day Griffins Grotto is selling from a place that has always had a retail shop there whether linked to production or not. Often in this day and age on the Island there is no demand for production here due to the high running costs and export cost subsequently many units remain empty. I admire them for trying to keep small business going in the island along with tourism and I will be supporting them 100%
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Firestorm, I agree wholeheartedly that if everything was black and white that would stifle innovation, but what I was alluding to is that we live in a society where the right to carry out development has been nationalised so it follows that there simply has to be a rule book. It’s part of the philosophy behind spatial planning! However, that rule book is created democratically and should reflect community aspirations; therefore, if a democracy wants it changed, it should be reviewed (with a full appreciation of the potential impacts). But until it’s changed then it is a legal requirement that it’s adhered to, no matter what amount of public support or objection a proposal has.
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the main problem with this so called rule book is the wording can mean so many different meanings,,our advocate spent 3hours with the planners trying to work out what 1 word meant , so my point is they will always have a answer to each problem by saying yes but this word means this and that word means this . And Steevo are you sure your not one of the planners ? I’m not having a go at you in any way whats so ever but you do seem to be blowing their trumpet a bit
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Maybe planning selectivly loose their precious rule book wen it suits them Steevo? And can u honestly say that The likes of Admiral Park is inkeeping with a surrounding area? Yes It may look nice …… But it’s NOT Guernsey and it’s more suited to large cities. Ur obviously English judging by ur sterile way of thinking which also tends to come from people who put money and uncompromising politics before other important things like humanity, common sense, and community spirit. (again a reminder that we are a small Island with a reputation for being a close knit and friendly community and we don’t like outsiders coming to our Island and telling us wot to do)! With ref to all the comments i have seen on this page and others no one seems to MIND the shop being there in fact a lot are glad of it The only people that appear to be objecting are a few who work in planning. (And possibly u who may be working in planning as hinted in previous comments or maybe ur just a big businessman who wants the premises for his own gain but a little local shop is standing in ur way)!….. Or MAYBE ur just the “there’s always one” person who just wants to be different and irk people! ;-)
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Oh C’mon Environment! This is getting beyond a joke. These are real people you are hurting. This along with the granite fence article and the other fence article last week are making a mockery of your department. You really need to think your entire approach. Its ridiculous. Its a joke. If i were these people i would take action, Im sure they would have a lot of support for a protest – this is a democracy after all – isnt it?
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No I’m not one of the planners, although I have worked in the public sector for many years and try to jump in and defend the officers who make difficult and controversial decisions. Often members of the public are quick to criticise but not necessarily whilst they are in full receipt of the reasoning behind a decision, or aware of what a difficult job public sector work can be where you’re never going to please 100% of the people 100% of the time. That’s why I urge anyone who doesn’t agree with planning’s decision on this matter to find out and understand the reasoning behind why it was refused.
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Every so often there is an advert in the Press, from the gas company I think, on the lines of ‘Ring before you dig’to warn property owners and developers to check what pipework there may be in the vicinity of any building work
Perhaps environment could sack a couple of their abundance of staff members and invest in a few similar ‘Check before you act’ads instead
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@ Steevo…
Anarchy? lol.. Anarchy? Let me guess this right. Are you insinuating a rule stating a couple of hundred square foot which was being used to knit jumpers being changed into an area that sells cuddly toys will in turn somehow lead to the total dissolving of a government? Talk about being poles apart with your use of the phrase ‘Anarchic’
It’s time the States of Guernsey admitted that they are in the wrong and leave the family and their employees alone. The rear of the site has been vacant for a long time as no-one wants it as a light industrial unit, so where on God’s green earth is the floods of industrial business’ unable to trade due to their being a lack of affordable light industrial units? Simply? It’s because there aren’t any. Unfortunately small firms are drying up so please let this one survive !
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We are always being told by the States to support local businesses but they are doing the opposite.
The property has been used for different purposes in the past I agree but surely a slight change of use category is much better than the possibility of the property being left to rot.
Small businesses cant afford High Street rents, and more to the point , don’t want to.
We are losing the corner shop type properties left right and centre , next things to go will be the visitor attractions.
I look forward to the upcoming planning application to knock down Castle Cornet and the Town Church as they no longer fit in with the mordern arcticture we are seeing going up.
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Silver Saphire, I’m not quite sure why you’re trying to have a dig at me all of a sudden. All I did was try and explain where the constantly persecuted planners were coming from – nothing for my personal gain, or theirs for that matter. And as for incorrectly deducing that I’m automatically not local (how?!!), that’s ridiculous! And that I ‘put money and uncompromising politics before other important things like humanity, common sense, and community spirit’. And that I’m irksome. Really???
I thought this was a forum for a debate; just because my view differs from yours there is no need to be nasty.
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Not meaning to be nasty Steevo, just pointing out how ur coming across and showing my support for a family that stands to loose everything just because a minority of power tripping politicians are trying to play God. (this isn’t the first pedantic decision to hit the headlines of As people keep trying to point out, the unit being leased has ALWAYS BEEN A SHOP! Forget the industrial parts, they can still be used as such (as long as the neighbours don’t object as they have done in the past. (none of them or other members of the public for that matter appear to have objected to a shop being there tho so surely that should have told people in planning something)! Your views do appear to be a little cold and “English” as there is a big difference between true Guernsey culture and English culture which is why u don’t come across as a being a Guernseyman, (are u by the way? u didn’t clarify) I apologise if u are but I have never met a fellow local who has such a black and white view of how things should be. Personally i think things like this that recieve no reasonable objections from the public should be passed or put to some sort of public vote. :) that would give more time for the planning department to deal with more intrusive and objectional issues.
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OK, so the place has been used for the ‘wrong’ purpose for fifty years. If the planners won’t authorise a change of use why can’t they just go back to sleep for another 50 years? The current owners seem to be upsetting nobody except a few jobsworths, live and let live.
Since the Waterman family bought the ‘shop’ 18 months ago would their advocate not have confirmed to them the allowed ‘use’ of the premises. If the advocate did, the family have taken a grave risk. If not, presumably they can seek recompense for negligence?
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If the problem is that the shop is standing alone and not selling goods made in the factory then here would be my solution:
Rent out the factory space as small art’n'craft workshop units so that locals without the space in their homes to make their hobbies a business can go ahead.
The goods can then be sold in the shop as genuine Guernsey crafts. There must be many people who would like bigger worker areas but don’t have the money to rent large premises. By creating a Craft Co-Operative both problems could be solved.
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If the place was to be used by a finance company, I bet nothing will be said and rules about the usage of the premesis soon altered. Lets face it, our beloved government suck up to the finance, give our hard earned money to people who do not want to work whle making life difficult for those who realy do work. There is no room for real hard working families in this island. If you got money, the red tape is soon cut.
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Steevo asked “Firestorm, would Griffins Grotto not be successful if were located in an established retail zone?” Here we hit another problem for the small business. High rents and lack of trade, especially in our main town.
Griffins Grotto is in a great place, easy parking and accessable for shoppers who ‘cannot’ get around very well. I have been to Griffins Grotto many a time, and love it.
Personally, I never go town to shop. I prefer the Bridge and out of town places to go shopping. Griffins Grotto used to be at the Strawberry Farm. What is happening with Farm now?
I hope Griffins Grotto stays just where it is. It is great place for unique gifts, cards etc. The Waterman family have been running this business for a long time, so leave them alone.
I remember an elderly gentleman once said on Radio Guernsey, There are more rules and regulations now than when the Germans where here. How true he was!
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I find it rather pathetic, that the control (if one can call it that, bullying is more appropriate)
They complain it isn’t registered as a shop.
My goodness, when one thinks of all that has gone on due to these people- they say a little power is dangerous.
When the ‘Queen Bee’ of commerce was ruined by these people, selling it to outsiders; that ‘Queen Bee’ was our markets. life and business revolved around those markets.
Then once again they built Admiralty park,. people had to travel a distance to get their daily goods.
Is it any wonder that small shops had to close result of that self same ‘Park’
Leale’s Yard will be another cause for local shops to bridge shops will be forced to close.
This is not progress, on the contrary, it’s back to middle ages where all was inside the ‘Walls’
Enterprise is killed stone dead by these ‘Bullies hiding behind their Official status.
It’s about time that a big shake-up. occurred in Guernsey. Get rid of these little dictators.
Bring out once more that post card just after the Occupation- The card that depicts a Donkey kicking out those unwanted dictators-
To my way of thinking they’re still here
COME ON DONKEYS KICK ‘EM OUT!!!
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Many comments expressing disgust at the planning depts decision not to allow Griffins Grotto to continue trading and only one,(steevo) in favour,go on steevo admit it you are in real life Jim Rowles head of planning.
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