‘Quality’ wall is out of rural character
Tuesday 19th October 2010, 2:29PM BST.
The wall on the boundary of Keller Court in Le Coudre which planners have decided is out of keeping with the area. (Picture by Steve Sarre, 1040212)
A ROADSIDE boundary wall of a property at Route de Coudre, St Peter’s, has been built without permission.
The Environment Department’s planning section has turned down a retrospective application from the owner, Oliver Smalley, for Keller Court.
In its notice of refusal, the planners said the construction of the wall incorporated dressed stone and precise joints which was essentially an urban/suburban feature.
That meant it was out of keeping with the locality, which was characterised by traditional earth banks, which were a major element of the underlying landscape type of the western plateau.
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Fair enough! Get on with it.
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Out of keeping is it?
So cars, tv ariels/dishes, aircraft overhead,
industrial type sheds opposite the parochial cemetary, the new `eyebrow` house, the old fish factory, Houguette School, etc etc are OK then?
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There seems to be a whole series of stories like this at the moment. I find the wall quite pretty actually.
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Environment’s planning section is correct, the wall is very much not in keeping with the area.In fact it looks ‘DisneyLand’ish’ -’Mickey Mouse’. So my question is, when are property owners going to grow up and develop some intelligence by accepting the fact that planning ‘permissions’ are required in Guernsey for a reason – and a very good reason at that! For instance, can you imagine the mayhem, or what Guernsey would look like, without them?
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slep, I agree, I think the wall looks very nice. Still, we shouldn’t expect what the vast majority of right-thinking people consider to be attractive to be found attractive by anyone at the Environment Department. The ‘ED’ appears to be populated by people who are utterly bonkers and who raise the most ridiculous reasons why something is incongruous. Perhaps such matters should be put to a local vote and then the people who would view these apparent carbuncles could decide whether or not they are allowed to remain.
The ED is strangely silent on other matters, such as why do so many home occupiers (I deliberately avoid the phrase ‘Home Owner’ as I suspect many of the houses involved are tenanted) insist on using a one-ton skip bag as a garden ornament? I notice that the habit of obtaining a bag, filling it with rubbish and then leaving it to rot and fester in the front garden is reaching epidemic proportions.
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If they removed an earth bank then that would definitely be a crime. Some of those have been around for centuries.
But it’s a tidy wall and a well-kept garden. Far more ‘eyesores’ are created around the island due to neglect or the dumping of old bangers and other rubbish.
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The wall seems to be in keeping with the house. Should that be removed as well?
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I thought the other Env Dep story today was even better.
Vans in car park would be out of character.
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You wouldn’t get this going on if Mike Torode and Francis Quinn was still in the States.
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This looks a really attractive wall, looks like granite has been used too.
The Environment department’s wages need a serious looking into, why don’t they spend their time sorting out a new waste strategy, they’ve known about the incinerator not going to work for a good few months now, even a primary school child could come up with a decent waste scheme.
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Hi.
Come on planners…..get a life!
GD.
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It looks a lot better than it did 7 or 8 years ago.
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I think the wall looks far preferable to Guernsey earth banks that have been covered in black plastic stuff to keep the weeds down. They look hideous!! If Guernsey banks don’t need planning as they are in keeping then they should be kept fully green or planted – not covering them in dreadful looking plasic fabric. Surely the wall in the picture with a smartly clipped hedge over it is more attractive than one of the “black” banks.
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I think they’re just declining retrospective applications to prove a point. That point being, put your application in before building.
I don’t think the look of the wall has anything to do with it really.
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Laughable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GD.
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This wall would look fine in a neat modern suburban development – it’s well built and the stone work looks excellent.
However it is totally out of character for this area and demonstrates perfectly the sort of creeping urbanisation that is taking place in parts of the island. If people thought about this and went through the correct application procedure in the first instance they would save themselves a lot of hassle.
In my opinion the department was right in refusing retrospective permission.
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@Ray Gueno
Franny Quinn is still deliberating for the SOG – you don’t hear anything at all from him, most of the time, but he is still salaried by us, nonetheless.
Mike Torode is out of politics, now, but although he boasts about his self imposed vow of silence, he never misses out on an oportunity to “have his say”. He is pensioned by us.
Ever thought of standing yourself RG?
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Well said Ian! The wall matches the house perfectly and makes a great clear line around the bend. Very attractive.
As as example of good workmanship it is excellent!
Maybe the ED employees fear losing their jobs if they do not come up with lots of no-no’s to keep the population ‘under control’!
More excellent workmanship like that on display in Guernsey would be great when one takes a drive round on a Sunday!
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Lynnie
I had the same thought myself actually.
They are showing the public they mean business.
That I assume is their intention (unless they all have hands in companies which stand to benefit from potential remedial work ;-)), but its not the reality.
The reality is they are coming accross as petty beurocrats with nothing better to do, whilst an increasing bemused public look on whilst more awful architecture gets approved at the expense of common sense.
Pretty soon something is going to have to change because this is getting to laughable proportions now and the public are losing what faith they did have with this particular bunch of civvies.
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expat80 – I do agree in principle, but the wall really does look perfectly acceptable to me(?)
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The wall looks so neat and attractive. Its lovely. So much better than a messy mound of weeds that environment supposedly prefers.
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I think this wall looks very nice, surely there are bigger eyesores than this in the island to be concerned about. Environment just seems to be upsetting everyone at the moment and being very pernickity.
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“out of keeping with the locality, which was characterised by traditional earth banks, which were a major element of the underlying landscape type of the western plateau.”
Isn’t that the point. You allow one, precedent set and hey presto, granite wall creep.
The laws are there for a reason, notwithstanding the the odd knock-downable shed appearing in fields, or a fence panle appearing on a road side, at around £130 a square metre for granite work, you have to wonder what the owners were thinking?
Having conducted extensive work on a number of properties there’s not a hope in hell I’d take that risk without checking with Planning.
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RE Stiletto,
I am led to believe Francis now works for The Carlton Hotel where he remains a Judge for the forthcoming Miss Guernsey Padgent, while Mr Torode is a consultant for the Airport, advising on the forthcoming Airport runway works and answering question others may find difficult,i was standing for election when i was called up to serve my Country.
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Many of you are missing the point
It is irrelevant if the wall looks nice or has been well built – if it does not have permission then it needs to come down, otherwise we are effectively saying that anything can be built anywhere without permission so long as it ‘looks nice’
Mr Smalley took a calculated risk, and got caught (same as that Chinese takeaway owner)
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Forget all the comments about it looking better than it did or could have done …
The real issue here is that the owners broke the law and attempted to make things better by putting in a retrospective application on the grounds that “its up now so they wont refuse it”
Imagine that your own house got broken into and squatters moved in, the Police come round and say to you ” dont worry , they are comfortable now so just leave them there” – what would you feel ?.
Not applying in the first place is stupid, regardless of what you think about of the laws , depts etc , surely its better to have an application rejected and appeal etc. then to have to rip something down at great cost ?, its the same with the family who attempted to make their house larger , if its not as per planning its unlikely to a saleable item if not as on the land registry, in these days of house prices could you afford to lose probably half a million pounds on a house sale because of an unplanned wall ? I hope you wouldnt buy a house without a survey and things like that will make the sale null and void.
Common sense prevails , we all do silly things at times , speeding , smoking , drinking etc and all of the above have consequences
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The wall looks great ! So much better than that custard castle they let through in the Charoterie.
Hideous !
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Take your point Neil about replacing earthbanks with granite walls but should we not welcome the fact that we have stonemasons in Guernsey still practicing the age old Guernsey trade.
Mind you in saying that I agree check with planning first even if you are replacing a garden gnome.
Earthbanks also need maintenance and once again people dont want the bother, build a granite wall, never to be touched again, thats one less job to do of a weekend, I can go and play squash or go for the weekend to London.
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Yesterday I visited both this site and Les Rouvets and saw for myself the two anomolies that the Environment Department Planners have turned down retrospectively. Far from being out of place I think that this site at the Coudre deserves awards for building excellence because the standard of work is certainly in keeping with the centuries of granite work this island has been famous for. The Rouvets site (wooden fence replacement) is a vast improvement on the previous fencing and must be 100% safer for the owners family.
I fully agree that proper planning permission must be applied for but surely the architect and builder or carpenter should have known about building permissions and should have informed the owners of the requirements before starting the work. If the owners weren`t informed or misguided then the retrospective permission should be granted. Some leeway must be given in these cases and perhaps a rap on the knuckles or a fine would be enough to stop any further transgressions but to destroy outstanding workmanship is vandalism. These are two examples of fine craftsmanship and once weathered will fit in with the surroundings.
The wall at the Coudre is wonderful workmanship and you should go and study the craftsmanship and pride that the builder has put into it and it brightens up a dull corner of Guernsey`s roads. The Rouvets fence is well above eye level and to most people will never be noticed. All I`m saying is be thankfull that there are people who are willing to take on the expense of replacing and enhancing parts of Guernsey that have fallen into disrepair. Grant the permissions and let these people polish Guernsey`s rough edges.
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Sammy.
This may or may not be still relevant but States properties do not require approval as they had (have?) their own architects , hence the monstrosity in the Charroterie , Until about 5 years ago I had the dubious pleasure of living opposite that building and even the ivy climbing up the wall to hide the monstrosity dosen’t like it as it is not growing LOL
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Wall looks fine. What is the problem with these old timers sitting on these departments telling us what is OK and not OK. How ancient do you want Guernsey to become. Start modernising I say. It is 2010 after all.
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Peter – the appropriateness of the wall has nothing to do with its craftsmanship. St Peters is a mainly rural environment – its rough edges need to be maintained.
If you paved a field with beautiful granite cobbling, would it be ok? The craftsmanship would be great, it wouldn’t be a dull field with rough edges any more, you could see the pride that the builder put into it, etc. But it would still be inappropriate.
Just playing devils advocate, but your arguments for the changes are the wrong ones.
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Get permission first seems to be the recurrent theme here. Why do people just assume they’ll be ok when they don’t ask first then every one kicks up a fuss if they are ask to sort it out?
I am behind the env dept here purely cos I don’t want people just doing what they like around Guernsey. Rules are rules that apply to everyone no matter how pretty the thing looks…I know people who have been waiting ages for permission to be granted so when people do this it makes it worse for them. People should grow up and accept that if you have to ask the answer might be no.
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I am personally disgusted by these precise joints and clean brickwork.
As we all know, the last stage in building a new wall is judicious application of dirt and random chiseling of the wall’s face. They’ve clearly done half a job and now they expect planning permission?
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TL – A fence is a great way of keeping your neighbours weeds out of your field. Constructing a fence improves the way land can be used by keeping livestock in (in the most efficient manner) and making the land more productive for farming. That is why they passed laws encouraging fences for fields in the 16th century -constructed stone or other.
I agree that all applications must be looked at on a case by case basis but adding a simple “Does this improve the look of the property? and Does this improve the function of the property?” questions into the assessment process may avoid cases like the one above where their decision does not seem like a logical one. The second question is important for fields because its not all about looks you know.
If you were to ask the average local if the fence above was in keeping with Guernsey Im sure they would say yes- and thats all that really matters.
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The house is a suburban monstrosity and is out of keeping in the first place, so the granite wall is actually an improvement.
Regardless, it is a mystery how a nicely constructed granite wall can be deemed to be out of keeping in St Peter’s or anywhere else in the island when it is littered with grotty bungalows and other houses, panel fences, stucco walls, plastic windows, glass buildings….
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I bet your bottom dollar that if the offending wall was painted white it would be acceptable !
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Everybody in Guernsey knows you can hardly park your bike for five minutes without needing planning permission. The time for arguments about whether alterations are ‘in keeping’ is when permission is applied for. Expecting things to be nodded through retrospectively is bound to get up the nose of the folks at Custard Castle. For what its worth I think the fence would look OK in time but the wall is not rustic enough, its not just a question of workmanship.
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“Regardless, it is a mystery how a nicely constructed granite wall can be deemed to be out of keeping in St Peter’s or anywhere else in the island when it is littered with grotty bungalows and other houses, panel fences, stucco walls, plastic windows, glass buildings….”
…many of which would have been approved by the very person who ran the IDC who is often now held up as the perfect example of a “Guernseyman planner” whenever the current lot make a decision that the masses do not like!
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I think that Chris said it perfectly on Oct 20 at 10.56. Excellent stone masonary, but suitable for a modern suburban development. Out of context in rural St Peters and an example of the increasing suburbanisation of Guernsey. Judging by some of the posts on here, depressingly there seems to be a lot of people who would be happy with that…… turning the whole of Guernsey into a neat suburban clos.
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Personally I think the wall looks great, I really don’t see a problem with it. I have to ask how long it’s been there before this decision was made. The hedge behind looks very mature and has ‘moulded’ itself over the wall very well.
If Environment want to preserve the beauty and improve this island how about doing something about all the ugly and disgraceful derilect greenhouse sites. Oh but there we go again with the change of use issue. ‘It can only be used for agricultural purposes’. (Griffins Grotto you have my support)The growing industry all but died years ago but we have to put up with this unsightly wasted land and they’re worried about a beautifully built wall!!! It really beggars belief.
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I know of some houses in the upper parishes that have been built, with far more glass that is not in-keeping in the area, even one with a flat roof looking more like a mini sport stadium, but with an earth bank, so I guess that is okay!
Why have a law that allows retrospective approval, if its not acceptable to build something without getting approval in the first instance?
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The wall is a smooth offending modern blight, and out of keeping just in general, let alone because of the Parish.
Green houses lie empty I expect because local people stopped buying local produce in favour of bland imports with nastey chemicals. Thankfully more people are seeing the need to grow their own and green house use is not all but dead.
The Island will slowly loose it’s charm if building works such as this continue to creep in. Tourism is still an industry but one that will be overlooked by visitos if more of this takes hold over the island.
Guernsey will slowly loose it’s appeal, who wants to pay to see a suburban England.
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Why don’t the powers that be take a drive along Sous Les Courtils road at Albecq and tell us how much longer we are going to have to put up with the rotting old greenhouse that has been in this state for years. When we have a high wind you can hear the glass dropping out and smashing.
I am suprisd that in this day and age that such a lovely area is permitted to have this ugly, dirty not to mention dangerous remains of a greenhouse ruining our beautiful island.
There are many of these eyesores around the island, could you please concentrate on these rather than persecuting people who are trying to improve their properties.
Mind you the IDC have always been the same in my experience. “If the face fits” Need I say more.
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I have’nt really read the article, but the photo looks lovely.
In my line of work i have dealt with the Environment dept a couple of times. The ‘new’ planning laws do have an excemptions list.
16. gates,fences,walls and earthbanks.
b) ‘basically the height of any structure, i.e wall that faces a highway does not exceed 90 centimetres in height above any land’
and
e) any wall is of natural stone or rendered blockwork.
Both comments extracted from an environment document.
So, looking at the photo, Why does it need permission??
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environman – the key thing is, the owners took out a traditional Guernsey earthbank before building their wall.
Also, the stone is not native to St Peters but rather the red-pink-orange stuff you get around Cobo. It certainly is a nice piece of work but the house has fields on three sides and is in a rural location.
It is just this kind of urban creep that is reducing the island to little more than 28 square miles of garden and horse paddock.
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If it is the case that without permission that a traditional earth bank was removed and the wall built, then they should be told to reinstate what was removed and the wall taken down.
Othersise it sends a message don’t worry do what you want permission will be granted afterwards.
Always, if in doubt ask first!
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Sorry, did’nt realise you had to apply to remove an earth bank.
obviously my copy of the Environment Department Guidance note 1, ‘Do i need permission for my development? Householder’s Guide’ is now probably out of date.
The wording regarding exemption 16.
‘the erection of a gate,fence,wall or earthbank within or along a boundary of the curtilage of a dwelling house provided that:-
The list of exemption requirements is then listed.
The point about these exemptions is to speed up the planning process.
Therefore it is my understanding that if all the boxes are ticked building a new roadside wall IS possible without the need to get permission.
and i stand to be corrected, but the removal of a earth bank and replacement with a wall, is therefore possible given the Environments own guidelines?
but as with most of these GP / environment stories, the devil is in the detail, which is over-looked by some!
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Just had another couple of thoughts.
Is it possible to knock down an existing granite wall and replace with an earth bank?
Is it possible to knock down an existing granite wall and replace it with a timber fence?
And finally, are any of the exemptions to ‘The land planning and development(Guernsey) Law,2005′ actually possible to achieve successfully, or were they put in the law by civil servants to aid its passage thro’ the States of Guernsey aproval process?
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It is quite simple. They should have sought planning permission but were either too lazy or too ignorant to do so.
You break the law you suffer the consequences. Simples!
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Lyn.
Can’t remember the words but ‘in hindsight’ or something similar to that rings a bell.
unless you know the individuals and all the details, i don’t think your lazy or ignorant comments are justified.
Have you considered they may have ‘acted in good faith believing permission was’nt required’.
very similar to ‘fencegate’ in the Rouvets?
remove a fence and replace a fence!
This Environment Law will continue to produce good articles for the press reporters.
should only be a matter of weeks before someone puts a boat in their front garden for winter storage and the environment dept ask if they have received permission for their moveable structure.!!!!
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SHEDS.!!!!Lets hear the comments about GARDEN SHEDS….. Why can`t you have a shed in your field.? which is free standing out of site of the public takes up less than 1% of the field. And is used to store Agricultral machinery,harvested crops from the veg plot (which had to be removed because it was a domestic size)….animal feed you know the stuff you need to mantain your land.
Told to remove trees from field. Untill it was pointed out to THE ENVIROMENT DEPT it was they who supplied them, planted them on the SITE.
Why don`t they stop picking on the little man and stop letting the money people build and do as they like? the eyebrow house a tradional guernsey cottage turned into a wooden box with what looks like a floating roof sat on glass,or the small bungalow which has been replaced with a three story look alike hauff house.or even that yet to be build space age house at portelet… i could go on but you know what i mean..
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Niggles
I totally agree with environment that garden sheds, etc should NOT be put onto agricultural fields. Hard luck if you have not got a garden large enough for your veg to grow. Leave agricultural fields alone for farmers.
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