1

Truth Man

Of course it isn’t as black and white as it first appeared!!! Deputies never cease to amaze – they grab hold of an idea, decide they can sort it all out by squaring a few people away and then seem surprised to find out that their magic wand isn’t going to work as well as they had assumed!

There is no doubt, the subject of young people giving evidence in court does need addressing in Guernsey – but it will not be easy to change the legal system’s reluctance to adopt special measures.

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3

Ray

Truth Man

Ease up on Deputy Jones.At least he speaks his mind and is not afraid to call a spade a spade when necessary

He was acting with other Deputies,not only in self interest,but on behalf of many islanders who couldn’t understand why certain ‘cases’ never reached Court

The delegation now fully understands that while the investigating officers,who have personal and emotional contact with the victims ‘know’the accused is guilty,the Law Officers, who only deal with cold and emotionless paper reports,have to take into account the age of the victim,the hard evidence available and the tactics of the defence counsel

A ‘He did this to me’ …’No I didn’t’ type of report will never, and should never, reach Court,but this can be hard for the parent(s) of the victim,who also ‘know’ the accused is guilty, to accept

It is a most unfortunate fact of life that unless the Law Officers are presented with a case which is as water tight as a crab’s a*rse they will not risk further harm to the victim

Unless we move to the Labour suggestion that alleged rapists are guilty unless they can prove their innocence we are stuck with the present unsatisfactory situation

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5

Dave Jones

Ray

I thank you for your support, the facts are these.
After being approached by families and other concerned islanders on the subject of Child sex abuse cases myself and other Deputies decided to set up a meeting to talk to the Law officers about what on the face of it appeared to be a lack of support getting these very sensitive cases before the Courts. That is part of our job isn’t it?
The meeting was very useful and I and my fellow deputies were unaware before this meeting took place that there was a review being carried out in conjunction with the Guernsey police on child sex abuse cases. We were also very impressed by the huge amount of research the Law officers had done in preparation for the meeting. I never set myself up as an expert on this subject and Truth man as an ex police officer will know that there is very little in theses traumatic child abuse cases that is black or white. There were and still are numerous questions to be answered and the Law officers answered many at the meeting on Tuesday afternoon. We now intend to set up a meeting with the Police to see what can be done to improve their resources in terms of gathering the evidence needed to secure a conviction. I and my fellow deputies are grateful for the two and half hours the law officers gave us and I left the meeting with a much different outlook than I had when I first started to look into the issue.

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7

Truth Man

You’re right Ray, I was a bit harsh. I am just disappointed that (assuming he has not been misrepresented by the press) he seemed to think he could go in, make some suggestions, and fix the problem – was he being naive or is it that he holds himself in such high regard that he assumed he would do better than the law officers?

Mrs Meat: What is unbelievable about my statement? I wholeheartedly support Dave Jones in this quest – I am just disappointed that he thought it would be so easy to spot and eradicate the problems. I hope he does not lose track and leave it at “the police need to work more closely with the law officers”.

Custard of the West: Opportunities to use special measures are often not followed up in Guernsey.

Dave Jones: Have I ever said I am an ex-police officer?!

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9

Dave Jones

Truth Man

First of all I am NOT involved in any review, I learned about this joint review between the Law officers and the Police along with the other deputies who were at the meeting with myself and the law officers. This review has apparently been going on for a little while now. So the remainder of your last post is as inaccurate as many others you have posted.

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11

Custard of the West

No – there are no cases, to my knowledge, where opportunities for special measures are not followed-up. I do not know of a case, from what is reported or anecdotally, with youngsters where they have not been applied when requested. If you doubt this ask Home Affairs to supply the FACTS, please.
And as a general rule, you cannot get convictions without good evidence – nor should we in such nasty matters.

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13

Dave Jones

Truth man

You did not have to tell me you were an ex police officer, I know who you are.

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15

simon

Paul

Some have died, but that aside, I respect the rights of the victims not to go public.

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17

Truth Man

Custard of the West:

Strange, I have heard of a number of occasions where opportunities to use special measures were not taken up. I will have to check my sources, as BCB says, it does not pay to be inaccurate. If I am being informed wrongly then I will be the first to apologise (by the way – in one case my information came from a law officer).

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19

SS

Surely there could be any number of reasons why some cases may not go to court, and if it didn’t go to court, then maybe it was for very good reasons.

Paul.
As far as vigilante action goes I don’t necessarily disagree with you – as long as you can guarantee you have got the right person!!!!
If for example you went out and “batted a satisfying amount of sixes out of these pieces of filth” but you got the wrong person, does that mean we can do the same back to you as your punishment?

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21

Paul

TL

I am for justice through & through. If the legal system failed to come up with a satisfactory conclusion then I would be more than happy to step up n bat for my family & the good of Guernsey.

Even after serving a lengthy prison sentence I doubt I would be able to hold myself back from meeting out a hardcore dose of punishment.

The most important thing that all must consider here is the fact that these filthy animals prey on the young, weak & vulnerable.

Kids grow up & their confidence matures with them.

All who have suffered at the hands of these scumbags have a duty of care for their fellow neighbours so this cannot be allowed to be replicated onto others.

I would be happy to kneecap these animals & brand a large P on their foreheads.

How many do you think would dare offend, re-offend, after half a dozen of these types of punishment was dealt out?

I am flabbergasted why people take this live n let live attitude.

I know those that are close to me & would be confident that if the need ever arises I could make a calculated judgement on what is the truth of the matter.

It’s when the masses turn the other cheek, the minority see the opportunity to grow.

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23

SS

Furthermore, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Baying mobs aren’t conducive to reasoned debate. Fair enough some animals don’t deserve reasoned debate, but you have to have that reasoned debate in order to prove guilt or innocence.

We all want these animals away from the public, but not at the expense of innocent people. Theirs a saying I very much agree with: “Its better that a 100 guilty people walk free than a single innocent person goes to jail”.

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25

bcb

Paul
Simon has already suggested that the authorities have covered things up? so it would seem they are already known, what is the point of him reporting something they already know about?

I see one of these animals whilst out and about and he is well known to the police, he was done for it many years ago and got a whopping 6 months.

As for the rest of your post regarding dishing out punishment as long as you know you got the right person i feel the same way.
The punishment is not even close to being harsh enough, these animals should NEVER be alowed back into society again because they will not stop, they just become more careful not to get caught.

I do understand why this would make you so angry as is does me and i would imagine most others, but i dont think its fair to have a go at simon.

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27

Mrs Meat

Whilst I agree that severe and harsh punishments are in order, I think it’s unfair to attack Simon.

When these abusers are well known to ‘the system’ and yet go unpunished, how can one person – who probably has no authority – expect to get justice.

A similar situation faced Sue Vidamour of Animal Aid. She heard (and saw) some horrific cases. She is no coward. She tried to report person after person – farmers, pet owners, etc – but those who had the money and right friends went unhindered. She should have got a medal for her work. Instead she got an awful lot of stick.

It’s clear that there are a lot of people who feel strongly about the abuse of the vulnerable and we need to find a way of making our voices louder than those who can shut us up. There are more of us and our power is in numbers.

Vigilante actions are not the answer. Look at animal rights activists. The worse they behave the less the lethargic majority back them.

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29

London Donkey

As an islander through and through I for one have no desire to see those that abuse children, animals and people that are unable to defend themselves; walk free from justice.

Justice is exactly that, it is the rule of law laid down over centuries that make humanity who and what we are. There are good and bad people in this world and that will never change. There are people that would take a life at the blink of an eye, abuse children without a care for the consequences of their action on that child and those who violate the rights of others on many other levels.

Who are we (without mentioning names but from the content of the previous postings it would appear obvious to readers) to decide who should be “batted a satisfying amount of sixes” and who shouldn’t?

Should these individuals who abuse children be “batted a satisfying amount of sixes” for ‘hands on’ abuse? should they have ‘extra’ if penetration of the child occurs? or should they be “batted a satisfying amount of fours” if they only ‘possess’ indecent images of children? (I apologise if my cricketing terms are not up to scratch).

I have sat back and read these posts, and others of a similar nature and refrained from becoming involved in such a sensitive subject matter because everyone has their own views. That said when acts of violence in a vigilante manner become a point of ‘reasoned discussion’ there comes a time that I feel I must say my bit.

In times past I have seen the effect on victims of child abuse and of adult sexual abuse too for that matter. Whilst an element of disgust, frustration and anger may boil away at you when seeing these effects, going out and the issuing of “batted a satisfying amount of sixes” is just not acceptable. The law is there for a reason and should be followed.

There are times when cases can be taken to court and there are times when they cannot – for whatever reason.

I commend Dave Jones who, for a period of time was demanding answers and explanations as to why cases were not brought before the Court and ‘offenders’ punished with the full weight of the law without knowing the full facts of why not. Having had a meeting with the Law Officers he, and others are now more aware that there are reasons why some cases simply cannot be brought before the Courts.

It may be that the evidence is simply not there physically, with only denials from the ‘offender’ and a statement from the ‘victim’ being the available material for life changing decisions to be made on by the Law Officers. Any case of that nature is going to struggle and more so if it is historic. It may be that it is not be in the interest of the victim. By that I mean; if the victim is a young child is it right that the child is made to re-live that awful experience again many times over just so justice can be done or seen to be done.

I simply cannot agree with a vigilante act or those that suggest it is acceptable. There are miscarriages of justice from time to time, and people have been known to lie in Court. I recall one case in the UK a year or so ago when a ‘reputable female lawyer’ (I use this term as that is how she was described as her identity was withheld by the judicial process and media)invited a ‘male friend’ back home to her house (where acts took place – I’m sure you get my drift). The following day she made a complaint to Police of rape as she maintained she could not remember what happened the night before so he must have raped her. The inevitable followed, arrest, searches, interviews, charging of male for rape and massive public/media attention. He was named and shamed but protested his innocence throughout. He was labelled as a rapist and had to move house two or three times following ‘vigilante attacks’. She retained her anonimity. The outcome was that he was found ‘Not Guilty’ and both she and the CPS (Crown Prosecution Serive – UK equivalent to Law Officers) were heavily ctiticised by the Court, her for being economical with the truth and the CPS for bringing the case on limited evidence. However, by that time the damage was well and truely done. In this case I would ask “should he have been administered vigilante justice” and subjected to “batted a satisfying amount of sixes” (or maybe ‘fours’ as it was an adult case).

I have also known of young persons making allegations against adults who were ‘disrespectful’ to them and who subsequently made complaints of an ‘indecent assault’ against that individual resulting in the process above being repeated and an innocent man being named as a pedophile.

Child abuse is an emotive subject and cannot be tolerated in any reasonble and educated society but at the same time vigilante acts cannot be tolerated with either. The Law is there for a reason, for us to follow and not on an ‘as and when it suits us basis’.

I’ll get down from my soapbox now.

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31

SS

Still can’t answer the question though can you? I guess you think its ok to go around “kneecapping” people without any trial because in your own opinion they are guilty. That makes you a risk to the general public.

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33

Ray

London Donkey

You could add to your list of false claims the case of the Southampton? football manager ( must be ten years ago now) who was hounded out of his job by a couple of delinquents who were only after a payout as they thought he was rich enough to pay up to avoid a no smoke without fire court case

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35

Paul

Truth Man

You say:

What is the relevance of this statement? I do not want to ‘read between the lines’ and assume I know what you mean. Hence, I asked you for clarification.

Earlier you contradicted yourself by stating:

Are you saying the victims are victims for life?

Yes.

That is exactly what they are by allowing their suffering to go unpunished & the abuser to meet out the same, or even worse, onto others.

It is a common well known fact that statistically many abusers have been abused themselves. I doubt many of these are those that speak up & do their bit to stamp it out because they know it is wrong & sick.

All victims have a duty of care & responsibility to protect others. Otherwise their pain & suffering would be for nothing.

A child does not know the difference between right & wrong. As they develop this comes with experience.

All victims have to offload their burden, on the abuser, & do all they can to see them punished.

How could any responsible victim live comfortably with themselves knowing these animals are free to do what they know they have onto others because they have chosen to forget about their past?

Every link in these chains need to be taken apart. Every one of these pieces of filth should be dragged out from where ever they’re hiding & have the spotlight shone directly on them so all can see “who & what they are.”

Until this is done they know the system is working for their benefit rather than absolutely 100% against.

Abusers are weak cowardly people. The balance of strength tips in the abused favour. This fact needs to be cashed in on by all involved once & for all.

I hope you are now enlightened.

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37

Paul

simon

No, I haven’t.

You should not allow innocent others to walk in them, or even try them on for size, because you choose to do nothing about these scumbags either.

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39

Paul

Truth Man

No, I am not. You would have seen the sicko rolling around in a wheelchair with a large capital P branded on their forehead if I were.

I am just incensed by those that can make a difference & save others from suffering the same but choose to do nothing.

Are these the abused that will go on to be abusers?

What other reason could there be for shielding
these filthy animals?

So some may not wish to relive the memories. But at the expense of others experiencing what they have, or much worse, simply does not make sense or sit well with me.

If I was to know an abuser was allowed to carry on with their crimes unhindered because a number of weak cowards could not find the courage to do something about them I would be equally enraged.

Until society learns to stand strong & demand action for the greater good, there is little hope.

simon

Your silence equals misery for innocent others.

How does that make you feel?

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41

Paul

simon

How about answering my question?

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43

Paul

CO

He is doing exactly that by remaining tight lipped & cloaking their actions.

I am sure if he is worried about being believed, or whatever reason there may be for his silence, then he could talk to or email Dave Jones about these people.

Others may have, or will do the same thing, with similar accounts & same names cropping up with historical cases.

Everything must be done so those responsible are punished & parents & children can live in a safe environment.

Doing nothing is simply inexcusable & not an option.

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45

simon

Paul
To answer your question firstly I would need to accept the preceeding statement made by yourself and secondly I would need to decide if I would be interested in offering an answer to someone who has pre-judged me so serverly.
I think your question is flawed on the first count and therefore I have no answer for you. Had your question any merit I may well have not answered it on the second count.
Simples!

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47

Truth Man

Paul:

I am sorry, but since you have no experience of the emotions and personal battles a victim goes through your opinion has little credibility. Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but perhaps you could consider that you might not be very well equipped to pass judgement on the choices victims make.

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