Cleared at last
Friday 19th November 2010, 2:30PM GMT.
GUERNSEY has finally been cleared of claims that islanders collaborated with the Germans during the Occupation.
Cambridge University archaeology lecturer Dr Gilly Carr (pictured) yesterday announced research findings that exonerated the island and dispelled any allegations that Guernsey people had teamed up with the occupying forces.
Dr Carr’s landmark study – which has been followed by the Guernsey Press since earlier this year – was picked up by the national media yesterday.
It says that books like Madeleine Bunting’s The Model Occupation, was superficial and poorly researched, resulting in many being misled about what actually happened in Guernsey during that time.
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For a full review on `The Model Occupation` please look at the CI Occupation review No 25. This review meticulously highlights the mistakes, bias, and misleading premise of this truly awful book.
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You only get ‘cleared’ by a court. Not a study by one lone professor.
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John Sawyer
Were the other claims upheld by a court? nothing to be cleared of then in that case eh.
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It is a rather bold statement to suggest that Guernsey has been “cleared” of collaboration. There is very sound evidence available that some individuals in both Guernsey and Jersey did collaborate during the occupation. Some of those individuals were States employees who did so during the course of their official duties. That evidence is unquestionable and is contained within the archives of both Islands and within the papers held at the National Archives in Kew. That said much water has passed beneath the bridge since those dark days and those involved have long since passed on. I think the time has come to forget. I see no good purpose being served in raking over matters which have been the subject of so much speculation in the past. Ms. Carr’s time (no doubt publicly funded) would have been much better spent looking at a more meaningful and relevant topic.
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Was there even any court case? Something tells me there wasn’t and this is the GP over-dramatizing, once again.
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look at thisisjersey.com tonights paper says it all
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I don’t think this report has ‘cleared’ the Island from all allegations.
As in any occupied territory in wartime there would always be a few collaborators,a few actively resisting the occupying forces and most just quietly accepting what has happened and getting on with their lives as best as they can.
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Good job my mother in law is not alive or the air would be turning blue. There were people she hated until her dying day because she said they had collaberated with the Germans.She didn’t do no landmark study she just lived through the occupation.
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So guernsey are “cleared” of the claims of one researcher, by another researcher…..
And so on it goes!
Neither claims prove anything to be frank and realistically any evidence gleaned 60 odd years after the fact is likely to spurious, for or against. This is completely aside from the fact that I have never even seen a decent description of how the phrase “collaborator” would apply in the CI’s circumstance.
I think this issue is best left well alone now because the arguments are being fought by people who have no idea what the true situation was like back then!
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What a silly headline – and very lazy writing!
Dr Gilly Carr has NOT said that no islanders ever collaborated with the Nazis – what she has said (as reported in today’s Telegraph) is that there was resistance and many of those who resisted were captured and deported to camps on the continent – and not all of them survived the war.
As the writer in the Telegraph points out, this raises another awkward question – why no public memorial to this resistance?
Or would that rather draw attention to the fact that while the vast majority weren’t ‘collaborating’, they weren’t exactly ‘resisting’ either – entirely understandably – sensibly keeping their heads down and focussing on surviving.
But do we still look on these people who resisted the occupation as ‘offenders’, as they did after the war?
And if not, why no memorial?
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Dave and Scarpia,
Sensible additions here,I too,who lived through and had my life disrupted by the war,feel its time to forgive,but not forget.
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As the Cambridge academic in question, I thought I should reply with my own words. Ignore the Telegraph article by the way. I didn’t write it. A journalist, who had not done his homework and has not, I suspect, been to the CIs in the last 15 years, did.
First of all, I am working with a team: Dr Paul Sanders, Dr Louise Willmot and I (Dr Gilly Carr) are the only academics in Europe who specialise on the CI Occupation.
Second, this file is one of many new files that we have uncovered. Our research, started this year and ongoing, will lead to the first definitive analysis of protest, defiance and resistance in the CI during the occupation. This will be published by a high profile publisher. You may be interested to know that several BBC documentary makers have been in touch about the project. This all means that the CIs will receive positive coverage, which is great. I intend to give an in depth interview to the GEP when I am over in December, so watch this space for the details of what we have discovered so far.
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Dave Haslam – I couldn’t agree more.
Although I can understand the bitter memories of those who lived through those times, surely it is time to move on? What good does it do to keep digging up the ghosts of the past?
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Gilly Carr:
Could you please comment on the accuracy (or not) of Guernsey Press’ summary.
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I find this exoneration particularly strange, to issue a statement such as this would require all the details of some 20,000, islanders present during the occupation, movements during every hour.I doubt this was found by archaeology trowel.Madeleleine Bunting’s Book will i am sure be no less nor better thought out or reseached.I for one clearly remember having to repaint our Tanks during during the war, playing for the winning team is sometimes best. Collaboration is not all bad, had it not been for the occupation i doubt there would of been a blonde Guern’ till the Latvians came to Guernsey.
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Facts are facts, and I see no harm in trying to understand better what were clearly some very difficult times. I respect proper research presented properly, but I struggle to understand why people feel the need or capacity to make judgements of those living the nightmare which had become their lives.
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I can assure you that Madeleine Bunting’s book was biased and was based on superficial research. I have read her notes at the Imperial War Museum, and her interviews with people were really short, superficial, and had some very leading questions, always asking people to talk about collaboration. Her book is not well thought of among academics.
Our book will analyse statistical data (of age, sex, job) from court records, German military tribunal records, prison records, etc. It won’t be based on anecdotes, but on hard data. We’ll look at who carried out what types of resistance and when – what the triggers were, etc.
As for the GEP article – remember I don’t get the GEP in Cambridge and so have not yet read it, and so can only see the few lines online above.
As for the falla archive, which is what this particular news release is all about, please see my 5 min online video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHEHvUAI_B8
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Seems to be a battle between Nettles, Carr and Bunting at the expense of Islanders, most of whom can’t respond.
As much as the publishing of the Falla documents will provide the public access to a fascinating period of a group of committed individuals’ escapades and our Island history, I part company with the faux-spat for the purposes of pumping up book sales. Looks like publishing sales tactics are disappointingly being adopted by the world of academia.
In any occupied territory people managed those circumstances to the best of their ability. So is there any dark secret that requires exposing, or any direct accusation that requires a response? Unlikely.
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@Gilly Carr – thanks for posting on here.
Would it be fair to surmise that your research may show that there was more resistance and protest than has been believed until now?
But surely that can co-exist with collaboration (by others)?
And the press headline a nonsense and the introductory sentence a travesty of your team’s work?
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Neil – good point. I’ve got little time for ivory tower academics passing judgement on what happened – and making a few bob into the bargain. What possible good does it do to dig these things up?
My generation is fortunate to not have lived under an occupying power (and judging by the photograph, neither did Dr Carr) so who knows what we would’ve done? Would we have fought, collaborated or just sought to get on with our lives as best we can? I can’t answer that question myself, so neither will I judge any of my forefathers who lived here during the war.
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Dear all,
This is not about book sales; the book has not even been written yet! It will also be an academic book, and these do not pay the authors to write them, so there will be no royalties.
Neil comments that this is at the expense of islanders who cannot respond. Why do you think I am publicising this work, if not to get islanders’ responses? And I am getting a lot of response, and we have been interviewing a lot of people, who are sharing their archives with us. This is not about excluding islanders at all; quite the reverse.
Nettles is not part of the equation. He is not a historian or an academic; he’s an actor and a presenter. No disrespect to him, but this is a historians’ debate.
Yes, our research will certainly show that there was a lot more resistance that has been believed up till now. We will be able to produce hard statistics on this. We are also using the terms ‘protest’ and ‘defiance’, as these encompass the kind of unarmed resistance that took place in the islands (e.g. Marie Ozanne, who wrote letters to the Germans saying that they would have to answer to God for deporting Jews and ill-treating slave workers).
We are writing about resistance; our research has not been on collaboration. What I would say is this. The records clearly show that there are some people who do what they are told by day and who resist by night – e.g. the people from the Star newspaper, who continued to be involved in the German-censored paper by day (is this collaboration?) and who write the underground newspaper at night (resistance). This is typical of what we see.
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Paul, I am not passing judgement. This is about analysing statistics which speak for themselves.
And no money will be made; academic publishing does not carry royalties. We will not be paid a penny for writing the book, nor when the book gets sold.
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This work is also about highlighting the work of heroic islanders and showing how they suffered for their brave actions. Is that ‘passing judgement’?
This ‘ivory tower’ inhabitant, by the way, has a Guernsey mother and plenty of relatives living in Guernsey. Her relatives were also occupied and deported. And far from sitting in my tower and ruminating from a snug library, I should point out that I have come to the CIs monthly for the last 5 years and have spent many weeks and months at a time in the archives and sitting rooms of the Channel Islands. This work is based on extended fieldwork in the islands.
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If I recall correctly, some time ago, the GP&S had a background article on current Bailiff Sir Geoffrey Roland. Within this article I recall noting some figures which I think were approx. 17.5k of Guernsey civilians and 18k of Germans. How accurate are those figures?
I guess it would have been almost impossible for some to not at least appear to collaborate, but, bearing in mind the large force, with huge armouries and of such significance to Hitler, I wonder whether those who did offer resistance, did so in a manner that was beneficial to the general public!
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Pal le Page “What possible good does it do to dig these things up?”
Clearly, it allows us to see history through more accurate eyes. Knowledge of the kinds of resistance that our predecessors got involved with would be informative for a lot of people, and I am sure that there would be many who would read such a book with no small sense of pride. That does not stop us acknowledging that the world has moved on immensely since then.
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Dr Carr – thank you for responding. Apologies if I was a bit aggressive with my post, I just think enough books have been written on this subject already, sometimes with questionable motives – as you know not everyone misses out on a royalty cheque!
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TL – very well put and of course you’re right.
I actually really like history and agree we can learn from the past – I was being a bit blinkered by my emotions I think, being that Guernsey is my home – or perhaps on this occasion my postings were a case of “forgot to engage brain before typing.”
Happy to concede that point and agree with you!
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“This work is also about highlighting the work of heroic islanders and showing how they suffered for their brave actions. Is that ‘passing judgement’?”
Well…..isn’t the question answerd by the first sentence?
I’m all for the publishing of our social history and the likes of your team’s drive to have the time and expertise to put that kind of document together – no quibble and grateful.
The bit I struggle with is the tie up between media nd academics with consequential headline; ‘Cleared’. As other posters have said, accused by whom of what?
Even if there was an accusation that Islanders had to answer, in my view, the Frank Falla archive would have as much chance disproving the accusation as would the discovery of a Jerry Bags’ 5 year diary would prove Island complicity.
There’s a danger that the real story behind FF and the GUNS could be diluted by the wrap around ‘story’. Keep it interesting, important and academic and lose the ‘cleared’ headlines.
Said my bit – good luck with it.
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At Dr Carr’s request we’ve added a short video about resistance research to this article.
Scroll to the top of the page to view it.
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Neil – remember that we are talking about the GP here. Are you so sure that the nonsense headline and slant of the article came from the academic research team, rather than our local journos?
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‘Cleared at last’ is clearly a misleading and provocative title. Any amount of evidence proving acts of defiance or heroism does not disprove equally well documented acts of collaboration. Both occurred on an even wider scale in occupied France. Does the number of people operating crystal radio sets outweigh the number of letters received by the Commandant denouncing neighbours? Does painting ‘V’ signs on walls count for more than willingly doing paid work for the Germans?
I’m sure most Guerns trod a sensible middle course of ‘getting by’ during those terrible times – neither willingly assisting nor actively resisting the occupiers. But there is plenty of evidence that there were exceptions to the rule on both sides. And what of the role of our police? They did round up Guernsey’s Jews for ‘resettlement’ as they did in other parts of occupied Europe but did they have any other choice? And when they were caught stealing food from German stores was that an act of defiance or plain greed? If human nature was put to the same tests today, would we fare any better?
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Dear All,
I didn’t write the GEP article; I just gave the interview, so this was a GEP headline. But, isn’t all acknowledgement for brave islanders, who stood up against Nazi oppression and persecution, a good thing?
As for sitting in judgement – I’m not sitting as judge here; I’m just coming in as an ‘expert’ sitting on the side of the defence (if we’re using the court analogy).
My own view is this. Islanders – my people (my family moved to Guernsey as Hugenot refugees in 1680) were occupied and many hundreds – (maybe thousands – we haven’t yet counted) stood up to the Germans. This was no easy thing. They were imprisoned; a few hundred were deported to penal prisons and jails. They suffered cruelty, starvation and torture for their bravery. The testimonies are horrific. Many didn’t return and as a consequence of all of this, families were destroyed. And there are people out there who say ‘who cares? Islanders collaborated! Unarmed resistance doesn’t count’. And that makes me furious. Why let others wrongly judge? I feel we have an ethical duty to take a stand and once and for all, do this properly and produce real statistics and also show how these people suffered so it wasn’t in vain.
If that makes people think I’m sitting in judgement on them (and that is not my intention or desire), then so be it. I’m prepared to fight on their side for recognition. I think this is the morally right thing to do with the evidence I have found.
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Sorry folks, I get just as heated as you all do about this subject. It’s an emotive one. Those testimonies are just too awful to read; I only allowed those 5 to be published which have been cleared by family members.
The GEP has kindly agreed to let me write an extended article for the paper, in my own words. I’m working on it now. To be clear: I am not getting paid for any of this. I just have a bee in my bonnet and want to carry on where Frank Falla left off, fighting for recognition for these islanders. Someone has to do it. I’m very grateful to the Bailiff for supporting the idea of a memorial, but whether one is erected is up to islanders and not me.
I’m keen to keep you all posted on how the project is progressing, because I know an academic book is not for everyone. This research is not about running away back to Cambridge with your data; it’s about keeping you all informed as much as possible so you can contribute as much as possible. I have been overwhelmed by helpful emails with details of former prisoners so would like to thank those who have got in touch.
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As I was born after the war I have no right to comment except
Islanders in charge of Government etc under the occupying force must have had some terrible decisions to make
Always at the back of their mind must have been the route to protect the majority of people
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Dr Carr is right about it being an emotive subject – even after all these years. That was my first impression as a young boy upon my return from evacuation to England.
I was fascinated by the ironmongery in the German fortifications, especially the huge Russian gun at the Frie Baton, and was amazed that the island sold it all to George Dawson for scrap. He became England’s first post-war millionaire. It was understandable that the stuff was wanted rid of, but I thought it would have been a good idea to keep one fortification of each type fully equipped for historical and touristic reasons.
More painful was a family my parents had known from before the war who were considered by some to have collaborated with the Germans, quite unreasonably. The stigma never went away.
So I welcome an objective (academic) look at that period and look forwards to the publication of her work. Not least because I remember Frank Falla as he used to report on local athletics meetings.
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Piece by Telegraph blogger.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/guywalters/100065396/how-cambridge-university-is-spinning-the-story-of-the-nazis-in-guernsey/
Cambridge uni gets slammed big time
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The truth is not everyone is brave; so if someone threatens to shoot you or members of your family maybe ethics get abandoned.
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eh? – interesting link
Cambridge Uni may get slammed, but our GP doesn’t get off lighlty either – “absurd” and “rubbish”
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I would like to take this opportunity to add a comment.
My grandparents – Joe and Netta Gillingham – were founder members of GUNS. My grandfather was one of the members sent to prison in Naumberg along with my great uncle, Ernie Legg. Unfortunately, my grandfather never returned from Germany and, despite many efforts, we have never been able to establish his fate.
This left my grandmother a widow with a young baby (my mother). We have copies of all of her correspondence with various bodies trying to discover what happened to her husband – all to no avail.
As a family, we are fully supportive of Dr Gilly and her team. We have met with them and they contact us regularly with updates. I am extremely proud of my heritage and personally, I am extremely grateful that the brave acts of islanders during the occupation has at last been brought to light to a wider audience.
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Who can say who colluded and who did not?
Armchair experts (or in this case ‘Doctors’) are relying on anecdotal information on which to form an opinion.
The important part is the last word in the last para – opinion. That is all it is.
Academia has its merits, but it is also subject to a lot of Groupspeak, in that those writing it do so from a purely theoretical perspective – as some people have alluded to it is quite different when someone has a luger pointed at your head, or worse still others.
Most have seen the videos of Police opening doors for German Officers – does this suggest the Police colluded? What about senior officials? The milkman?
This is a bit of a can of worms really. At the end of the day there were people in European countries who fought against, and fought for, the Nazi regime.
I wasn’t there, so I can only guess. If I was paid money for old rope I could possibly conduct a lengthy investigation of any primary and secondary evidence to establish a position and present it as a view, even better I could be paid and call myself an academic.
And before people start submitting messages telling me how flippant I am, my grandfathers and great uncles were in France, Italy, Sicily, Burma, North Africa and Norway. Some of them survived, some were prisoners and some were killed. The ones that made it didn’t like to talk about their experiences.
I think it is a bit of a sweeping statement – and a totally misleading one at that – to suggest that Guernsey is exonerated. What a load of rubbish.
Collabotation means working with and as alluded to above, many people did, fact. Whether they went one better and ‘informed on others’ or provided ‘intelligence’ is quite a different matter.
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Daft headline. Tough subject.
According to my family there was collaboration; there was theft from the homes of evacuees by locals, and there was widespread unarmed “resistance” at the same time. As Beanjar says, there were many denouncements of neighbours by neighbours. “Recognise the writing on this letter, Herr Guernseyman? You should!” and so on.
Against that background, why hold up a half-dozen individuals as “heroic”? There were hundreds, thousands, probably that broke curfews or hid resources from or worked (but very slowly or badly) for the Germans. Most weren’t caught, or a blind eye was turned (often by humane Germans, not just local officialdom).
Many verbally, quietly spread news from outside, gleaned from their radios. Certainly by committing their news to paper for distribution, the publishers of GUNS risked internment, possibly their lives, but it has to be remembered, possibly the liberty and lives of their readers too, without whom their efforts would be pointless.
Stories from other occupied countries of hundreds being shot for the resistance of a few would have been ringing very loudly in the ears of many. To hold up some individuals, as paragons of defiance and resistance because of an act of petty vandalism, say, could really be seen as an insult to the memory of thousands that did not see fit to risk the lives of others for a what would have been a largely symbolic gesture, and who saw their duty to their families, to their fellow islander, and to endure, above any to “King and country”. We need to be vey careful about lauding or condemning anyone on the strength of the residual contents of anyone’s briefcase, no matter how persuasive.
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Amanda!
You can lift your head and hold it high-
Oh yes I knew Netta and Joe , Ernie Legg, and the whole family.
They lived in the Bordage nearest neighbour were the Barbers.
Joe was betrayed by a (not allowed to say the word but a girl whose lover was German.
You know Amanda I even held that baby of Netta’s in my arms.
I suppose in a way, because of Joe, we were as we were.
Yes Amanda Joe and Netta were our heroes of the day.
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Those terrible times forced most people into acting out of character. The nazis were practiced in making occupied populations serve their purpose and the majority had no option other than ‘colaborating’ in the sense of working with them. States officials and the Police did their bidding, farmers fed them and many had their vehicles, homes, land and radios requisitioned.
A brave, foolhardy or stubborn few did not comply with occupation laws and some paid a terrible price. Others settled old scores, some did well from the war and were rewarded by having their ill-gotten reichsmarks converted into sterling after the occupation. ‘Least said, soonest mended’ was the British policy at the end of the war but perhaps that was a mistake. Maybe that is why the laundry is still being aired 65 years later.
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