Grotto appeal seems doomed but ‘we must keep fighting’
Tuesday 23rd November 2010, 1:00PM GMT.
Tanja Waterman with one page of the petition to keep the St Saviour’s gift shop open. (Picture by Steve Sarre, 1057118)
PLANNING officials have refused to negotiate over troubled Griffin’s Grotto, according to the owners of the business.
The Waterman family, who run the St Saviour’s giftshop, have vowed to fight on following what they describe as a ‘pointless meeting’ with the Environment Department.
The dispute is over the former Le Tricoteur/Perelle Bakery site, into which Griffin’s Grotto moved 18 months ago.
Although retailing has been carried out on the site for many years, it is classed as industrial. A retrospective planning permission was turned down, leaving Squire Waterman, 68, along with wife Marguerita, 66, and their children Troy, 39 and Tanja, 42, feeling helpless.
Troy Waterman met planning officials, but was left bewildered by their stance.
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Environment Dept really are the limit. Honest Guernsey people trying to make a living. Its always been a business there – so whats the problem ? For goodness sake have they (ED)nothing better to do with their time. They certainly are not interested in the Gsy people that is for sure. I am sick of reading in the papers every week about some other stupid decision that the ED have made. Maybe its time we got rid of them and had a new committee who work for the good of the Island and Gsy people.
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For goodness’ sake. If they hadn’t moved there without first acquiring the correct permissions then they should expect this sort of thing.
There’s no use in complaining about the system when you’re in direct contravention of it and are at the mercy of the law.
I really don’t think that these people should be given any more airtime, it’s simply ridiculous!
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Just rename it to Grotto UK Ltd, your be able to do whatever you want and will probably even get a grant interest free.
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Environment have to work to the letter of the law and I just get the feeling that they too are not particularly happy with the laws they have to uphold
Have they been deliberately petty in the last few months in order to stir up enough momentum to sail through the States with a redrafted, more user friendly law?
I hope so.If there is no end product to all this small-minded interference then they are indeed just the bunch of oppressive prats they are currently portraying themselves to be
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SB, (Steve Batiste by any chance)? Please read the comments on other articles concerning this matter before you make assumptions that we are deliberately in the wrong here. In Ref to us seeking permission before moving in. The unit we lease is between the 2 EMPTY units that are industrial,According to locals our unit has always been run as a shop of some kind since the 1940′s. The previous tennant had a gift shop there too and the fact that there has always been a retail element carried out in this unit we would not have expected to to “seek permission” for our Gift shop. You don’t go out and buy a boat then ask a sailor to make sure it’s a boat do you?. You may be fed up of hearing about us for one reason or another but we are a hardworking local family with a small business trying to make a living and quite frankly we are getting fed up of literaly being pushed out of our own Island! It’s about time locals took a stand against those who hide behind “policy” (which funnily enough seems to get bent a little when you start talking finance and larger companies,(often from the mainland), but stands rigid to the “little folk”!. There is such a thing as “Common Sense” too and if all these large companies can get around these “policies” i’m sure ED can find a way for smaller ones, but it appears they would rather kill off all what is left of the traditional local businesses and Shops and have large complexes with little customer service and hugely inflated prices. All we ask is to be allowed to run our small shop in peace. If the public was objectional to us being there then fair enough but the fact is there has been NO official public objection and it’s a FACT that people do NOT want to see us go and are quite happy that we are there, especially the surrounding residents who already objected to an industrial business setting up there as it was not a suitable area and would have caused a lot of problems for people liviing in the vincinity. And I think We have the RIGHT to complain under the circumstances, plus we are talking a small shop here not a huge store that’s taking up 1000,s of square meters! (i could have sworn we were liberated quite a while ago now). Take a good look around you and ask yourself what is happening to all the small businesses in Guernsey and why?
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Well said ‘Griffin’
I totally agree with your comments and the need for a bit of common sense but i think this is in short supply in the Environment Department.
Its all about ‘Policy’ and the ‘policy of the people’ that gets quoted by Environment.
Unfortunatly the ‘policy’ was drafted by a certain ex-chief planning officer ( non-local scottish chap) who was also influential in setting up the new law, and recruiting staff who would blindly follow in his foot steps.
Most islanders have not read the Environment Law, the departments policies or are even concerned how this department operates, until they come up against a department with the ‘Law’ on their side.
If you appeal against a planning decission, you can take your argument to a planning tribunial.
Question:- How many appeals have the Environment department won since ‘they’ introduced this system.
Answer:- Look in the press, read the articles. My guess is most tribunials are won by environment because ‘they followed procedures to the letter’ not because the descision made were right or wrong, or used common sense, purely ‘they followed policy’
Conclusion:- states members reading this. Drop this tribunial route of appeal and lets go back to the good old fashioned route of Jurats and the Royal Court listening to both sides of an appeal and making a ‘common sense’ decision.
I don’t think the Environment Department would agree as the outcome of this might actually favour the good old guern.!!!!
Rant over. Feel better now. How long until the next election. I’m feeling the need for a change in policy makers is required.!!!!
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Griffin
well said, we guernsey people are being walked over , well done for standing your ground.
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Back to the original and fundamental point: does the application conflict with the statutory, legally binding development plan? If so, it should be refused. Simple as that and the same goes for any planning application. I’m sorry to say that no amount of petitions or public opinion can change that!
Sorry, I know I’ve said what people don’t want to hear and I have little doubt I’ll get backlash for it, but I’m just stating a fact…
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‘legally binding development plan’
would that be the rural area plan that is meant to be updated every 5 years, but has’nt been changed for at least 10, because of the ‘workload’ of the Environment Dept and the Guernsey States?
Time moves on and so does public opinion, but the ‘peoples policy’ will not change until the words and plan are updated!!!
just a point on ‘same goes for any planning application’
Maybe the press could run an article on what the ‘policys’ actually are for this ‘development’ ‘use class’ ‘industrial with some retail’ etc etc.
i’ve read a few of the policys and basically they are written in ‘civil servant speak’. And the more you read the more confusing they are. One will say something might be ok and the next one will say it might not.
so who decides whats ok…….. that would be a ‘Environment planning officer’ who decides if something is to their individual taste.
some planners might say, sorry you cannot have a dormer window on your house because the ‘peoples policy’ say’s you can’t.
BUT, my neighbours have dormer windows and velux rooflights in their roof’s is my reply.
the planning departments response, SORRY just because they have them does not mean you can. They were built before this ‘new development plan’ was passed by the states, and we have to work to the policy!!!
No common sense used, just following procedure.!!
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Steevo, sometimes you have to do what’s right and not take written script word for word. FACT, a shop has been there since at least the 1940′s and there is no genuine or sensible reason why there should not continue to be a shop there.
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To cause the collapse of a business which has been there for sometime and has had something similar previously that is not causing anyone any harm or disruption which is also good for tourism and enhances an unused area where I am sure if used for industrial would cause a lot of disruption and annoyance in that area is disgusting and unacceptable you should look into the European human rights laws as peoples jobs and livelihoods seem to be at stake in this matter. One more thing for steevo (I’m sorry to say that no amount of petitions or public opinion can change that!)You sure know how to make friends with comments like that. I think you will also find they can make a difference after all Frances whole future changed after the people got upset and wheeled out Madame guillotine.
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Like I said, I was just stating a fact. This is a forum for debate and I’m just trying to balance the argument by playing devil’s advocate here.
There seems to be a lot of conjecture from people on this page and previous articles relating to Griffin’s – has anyone actually read the planning department’s reasons for refusal before jumping to the conclusion that the States don’t know what they’re doing? In 2 minutes on Google just now I found the report: http://buildingexplorer.gov.gg/Northgate/Images/Planning%20Decisions%20PDFs/FULL-2010-2551.pdf
It clearly states why it was refused and reading it objectively (and, importantly, not emotively) I find the officer’s reasoning is compelling and it’s difficult to conclude otherwise.
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Had a look Steevo 1: Policy RE4 of the Rural Area Plan indicates that proposals for the creation of new retail outlets will not be permitted unless they would support the
viability and vitality of a Rural Centre. Its not a new retail outlet as there has always been one there also If you take a closer look there are many places, shops, and attractions which are not based in the so called Rural centers.
2: Policy RE8 of the Rural Area Plan seeks to retain good quality industrial
accommodation in the rural area I think many people along with residents in the area would disagree about it being good quality industrial accommodation.
This is the best one 3: The change of use has resulted in the loss of industrial floor space contrary to the requirements of Policy RE8. There has always been a shop there so no industrial floor space has been lost.
Conclusion: It is indeed a shop and always has been a shop but if you dictate what is on paper its not a shop (although it would seem the shop outdates when the paper was written) Ill let people draw there own conclusions to this one.
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I Totally agree Firestorm. This is a classic example of why it is sometimes necessary to be a little more “flexible” with these policies (which I must say are quite cleverly written so they can be interpreted in many different ways, seemingly to benefit the ED). There are always exceptions to the rule in most things in life and it’s not as if planning has never “interpreted” policies in other ways to get what they want). Anything like this minor change of use to what appears to be only a third of this site, (I believe the 2 units either side of the shop have stood empty for quite some time), plus other small issues like fences, walls, hidden packing sheds etc being replaced or used as storage, if it hasn’t been objected to by the public, they should be judged on individual merit and if Ness, (as seems to be the case with GG it should go to a majority vote of the public, after all, it’s OUR Island and regardless of what some think, the voice of the public SHOULD be heard and SHOULD MATTER!
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Vote yes for the grotto,i just love that place,i often stand outside in the summer and winter months,thinking oh what a lovely grotto,it gives great pleasure to many people.
Vote yes for the grotto
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Just had a thought as it seems that the planning department do not use any common sense and can only dictate the small print of policy then in affect there is no need for this department this would save the island a lot of money along with no appeals section. This money could then go towards other budgets all you would need is a few lawyers to put into layman terms the polices and the police or military to enforce these policies. Their solved. OH NO! that wouldn’t work as that would be known as DICTATORSHIP. Oh well lets make perfectly good small businesses collapse, ruin tourism a bit more, put people out of work and onto benefit and upset people who replace fences build traditional granite walls amongst other things lets also totally ignore the public. Then lets pay them to do it yes this makes perfect sense well at least on paper it does (“doesn’t it?)
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I am an estate agent and a Guernseyman. I would like to say that the two empty industrial units on the site of Griffins Grotto are not wanted, however according to the States these units must all be industrial. So where are the three business’ banging at the door of the landlord in order to start using the premises? Simple answer, there aren’t any small business’ wanting to start up in that area. Small business’ are becoming are rarety and should be protected and helped by the States, not tied up in red tape. So by the letter of the law the States is going to hound a local family out of a local business which employs local people… Every person i have discussed this issue with is amazed at the stance the States has taken on the issue. This can be backed up by the FACT i am yet to hear from someone who is employed at Frossard House or by the States of Guernsey that believes they should be allowed to continue trading Absolutely no use of common sense whatsoever on the States part. Fine, don’t move the line just a little bit and watch a local business and its employees go broke…pure idiocy !
p.s. i still can’t believe the States is happy to see locals go broke for no, and i mean no reason at all…we need a shake up at Frossard house, get them off their backsides and try earning a real living. I don’t ever remember the bully in the schoolyard being paid a wage by the school!
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Today i stood across from the grotto.wondering what next from our civil servants and pen pushers,i just love to sit in this area and see the happy smiling faces of the grotto customers
vote yes for the grotto
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Griffin, well said, I support you totally and indeed have signed both your online petition and the paper one in your shop.
The states are just disgraceful, nuff said.
The only thing I’m disappointed about with regard to Griffin’s Grotto itself is that I only discovered it a couple of months ago and I’m kicking myself for not visiting it sooner, it’s a fantastic little shop and would be a real shame to lose.
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Can someone please tell me who makes these ridiculous final decisions, is it ultimately down to a senior civil servants or does the final decision come down to the deputies on Environment?
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Wombat – I’ve got nothing against Griffin’s Grotto or their campaign but your post has ably demonstrated why I pay absolutely no attention to petitions.
For starters I now know that at least one person has signed it twice. They are totally unreliable as a yardstick to demonstrate public opinion.
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If I had purchased this business and or property I would have expected my solicitors to have checked the planning permissions that the applied to the said premises.
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I have to say, I echo Paul’s point about petitions. They’re really not of that much use if you are trying to a) measure public opinion, or b) decide what is the right thing to do.
If you want proof, check out
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2217915679
- 83,000 people have signed up to a group stating that “physics doesn’t exist, it’s all gnomes”.
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Hi, thanks to everyone for their feedback and support. Paul the petitions will be checked for duplicate signitures as most petitions are before presenting, but it goes to show how strong people feel about this matter if they sign the petition more than once, (maybe that’s how Wagner stays in the X Factor then)! :) Stuart, the site is owned by the Le Poidevins who’s family have owned the premises since the 1900′s so you would assume they would know what they can and can’t do with it. The part we have leased has always been used as a shop of some kind since then so there was no reason to question its use before taking it on. I am assuming that it also came as a surprise to the Le poidevins as they appeared under the impression that had we of wanted to lease more than one unit we would have had to seek change of use for the other 2 units but the unit we are in, to their knowledge (and i believe, their architects), was for use as a shop.I hope that explains why we had no reason to suspect a shop was not a shop, especially when it’s quite obvious it is a shop by the frontage. :)
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This argument seems to be going only one way, and not the way we want as voters. Griffins Grotto is in my mind justified in having a shop where they are, and as someone here is correct in pointing out, there is no small industry banging on the door to use the two empty buildings available, and as much as we have all petitioned (over 800 I believe)against the closure, all this proves that the States take no interest what the public want,and we as the public are just wasting our breath even bothering.
I feel very sad for the landlord in this case, though he owns the buildings he has no ‘freedom’ to rent his buildings out to whoever he wants. A lot of people is going to lose out because the States cannot use a bit of ‘common sence’, allow a bit of freedom, all in the name of their law. Control freeks!
Where is the freedom to do anything in Guernsey anymore, everything we do involves a load of needless red tape, simple common sence is no more, we are all being ‘controlled’ in all aspects of our lives. This situation is a prime example, not only of the lack of freedom we have but of the governments double standards and inconsistancy.
I have written to all the deputies in the western parishes and only had two replies.
Just goes to show how interested they really are in us, the public…but thanks to the two that did. The rest, forget getting a vote from me.
The States have ruined everything on this island for the locals; horticulture, agriculture, tourism, fishing and other local industry all in the name of finance and the foreign investors. Griffins Grotto proves it, and as much as you in the States hide behind your laws, you are not interested in ‘locals and the Guernseymans way of life’, just in the control of local people. Quick enough to ammend laws to suit yourselves, or should I say finance, the banks…the only real subject the States are interested in.
The old way of Guernsey is dying, Guernsey is dying, being sold to the devil in exchange for wealth, and it is the workers of this island who have to really struggle, bare the brunt, to make ends meet with a high cost of living caused by letting the banks in. Only 2 winners here, the rich who come to invest here, and the States, the rest of us mere mortals, as long as we do what we’re told, and allow ourselves to be controlled, we’ll be fine.
The situation with Griffins Grotto is just one example of the States way of thinking. We, as locals, will never win, will never be free, always controlled, always confined, and Guernsey one day will be totally lost. Look what’s happening to Sark!! Another prime example where foreigners are coming in with a bit of cash throwing their weight about ruining Sarks way of life.
Our lifestyle is going down the drain, our freedom and our voice is not heard anymore because the ones with money are the ones who really run this island.
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Stewart R
It’s rented
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Griffin, I admire that you are acting with integrity in regard to your petition – it’s good to see honesty.
I still don’t accept petitions as a credible yardstick though as no matter how hard you try they are not properly regulated. Anyone can sign a false name or sign on behalf of someone else – it’s not like an election where everyone’s ID is checked.
I also don’t agree with your point that people must feel very strongly to sign it twice. Petitions are dead easy to sign and require little to no effort.
As I said, I’ve nothing against your campaign whatsoever, I just haven’t been duped by the the current Guernsey fad of using petitions.
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Hi.
Griffin, surely if Griffin Snr started stripping, repairing antiques as he used to and place them for sale in the shop then wouldnt your problems be solved?
From his old next door neighbour!
GD.
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@ gsydonkee – I agree in principle, but presumably that would mean ‘the Griffins’ having to pay rent on another unit to comply with the laws.
Alternately, the ‘industrial’ units could be sub-divided into mini units for rental by artists/craftsmen who could sell their wares in the shop. Must be plenty of people who could do with bigger studios to paint/create.
Best of all would for the States to bow to public opinion and have a vote on whether the shop itself can be rezoned to act as solely a shop.
Open voting would dispel any suggestion (in today’s Press) of ‘one rule for them…’
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Hello GsyDonkee/Mrs Meat, We approached planning about making a few things ie Silver Jewelry/ greeting cards etc but were told as long as we made 90% of what we stock in the shop it would meet with their “policy”. (There is no where in Guernsey that i am aware of that produces 90% of what they sell in their “ancillary” shops as planning like to reffer them as, plus this would like Mrs meat pointed out mean we would have to spend more money on renting out one of the industrial units either side of us to have the space to work. My Father is now retired and unable to produce the amount of restored furniture required to make it acceptable plus there is no room for that set up in the area we rent. We also asked about distributing stock for our ebay shop and the new website shop that we hurridly had to start due to this matter, only to be told this would not be allowed either as this was another category! No matter what reasonable suggestions we came up with they made it quite clear that we were mainly retail and would not be able to remain there and although we were entitled to appeal, we would lose because the new law prohibits retail shops from trading outside the rural area plan and that is why they can not change the use!! (what about all the other shops outside of rural planning areas then? talk about turning a “blind eye)”
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I read with interest the current plight of Griffins Grotto and the environment department’s stance on the situation in that they want all retail outlets to be herded into designated shopping areas or rural centres. Whatever next? Do they intend in the future for those elderly residents who cant get out much or go far along with some of the disabled to be also herded into designated areas not far from these centres to give them easy access. There are also other effects that need to be taken into consideration. You will inflate already high rents in these areas as demand grows. Alternatively cause the collapse of many small businesses. These areas would also become more congested with traffic. Can you also see something like the gift shop at the Gouffe lasting more than five minutes in the high street. Will places like the Guernsey pearl, Bruce Russell, The Friquet centre, Colour care, Smilers, Martyn Guille to name but a few be also made to conform to the environment departments policy and be moved to rural centres or do they have some kind of magical exemption from policy. I suppose the environment department would consider moving all historic monuments into one area as a good idea. They could all be looked after more easy and less staff required to look after them and tourists could look at all of them at the same time instead of hunting around for them. Come on environment department wake up it’s a small gift shop that promotes Guernsey and enhances the area not just a big chain store out for profit.
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Perhaps someone with a lot of clout/wonga has their eye upon the entire property.
Give the Le Poidevins a few years of two empty industrial units and an empty shop and suddenly they’ll see the benefit of selling…to someone who will magically manage to have it rezoned as housing and build a nice new estate upon it.
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That sounds about right Mrs Meat
Are our masters still considering open government in Guernsey? It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when they’re considering the bad publicity over Grottogate,even though they are technically correct under the present dog’s breakfast of an inflexible law to refuse a change of use
What we need in the absence of open government is a disgruntled civil servant to spill the beans on a local version of Leakypedia
I am told that disgruntled civil servants are leaving the island in their droves
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i know this is responding to an older post but i while i wouldn’t go to a sailor to check that a boat was a boat i would probably go to someone who knows about boats to check that it is in useable condition and in line with regulations.
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@ the States.
Question, all this about Griffins Grotto, not allowed this that and the other, got to produce 90% of its won produce etc, well, you allowed Ken Smith to turn the strawberry farm into a furniture market, though its closed now, it was a ‘tourist attraction’ so why was Ken Smith allowed to sell his pine and cane stuff from the Farm and use that as a retail outlet and Griffins Grotto cannot??
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