2

mhh

Are the States now officially nuts? The system works well, locals get to have outsiders – quite rightly – prevented from pushing them out of their own island, and a few incomers can settle here without upsetting anyone. As a open market resident, headlines like this frighten the life out of me. I wonder what compensation Mr Parkinson is considering for open market residents whose houses are devalued? What are the mortgage companies who lent on these houses going to do: write off the money? Full value under open market rules would be impossible to ever get back as the houses won’t be worth the original purchase price again. This is scaremongering and it is madness. Just what the island needs when it is trying to get as much tax revenue as possible. Frighen off those who might contribute more than they will ever consume from this lovely little island. Please, instead of printing (and Deputy Parkinson saying) what they might do, let’s hear what they suggest instead. Give those of us with mortages on the montster priced open market a bit of comfort. Open market people aren’t all millionaires, some of us scrape by to live here and would be sunk if the rules changed retrospectively. With Jensen Button here and a few other famous names just having moved in such headlines have the capacity to do HUGE damage to both the open market itself and to the reputation of the island as a stable and well governed place to live. I think the GP also need to take some responsiblity for running such a silly headline and creating more uncertainty than is necessary. Is this “consultation” being blown out of all proportion or is Charles Parkinson talking totally out of turn? Should he be suggesting the OM might be scrapped without a full review and the permission of the full States to be speaking about an issue that has a big impact on the economy of the island?

Report abuse

4

max

fully agree with mhh, written in a scaremongering nonsensical way that can only harm the Island’s reputation.

Report abuse

6

WATM

Dear Mr G – at which point since the end of the occupation – or even long before for that matter – has Guernsey’s food resources ever been ‘self sufficient’?!! That’s assuming you actually know the meaning of the expression…..

Guernsey has, does & always will need to import food supplies along with many other essential services regardless of how many ‘Johnny Foreigners’ live there or not. The only way Guernsey will EVER be self sufficient is to cap the local population – something which will NEVER happen. Open your eyes & join the real world.

On the point of Open & Local housing, and as an ex-resident of your fabulous island, I fully understand the need for such a system, but I feel that the current laws in place work extremely well.

However, there would be uproar on Guernsey if the same rules applied to all those Guerns who come to live in the UK….. Would the ‘one rule for one, one rule for all’ system work better in your eyes? Should you Guernsey folk be FORCED to pay extra to live in the UK as we are to live there? After all, surely you’re a drain on our resources too?? For example, some of your prisoners and hospital patients are sent here free of charge…..

I agree with mhh’s post above that this ‘story’ is nothing but scaremongering. After all, you need Johnny Foreigner more that we need Guernsey….

Report abuse

8

Open Sandwich

This is just another Media driven article to raise the public’s blood pressure.

This Daily Mail approach to reporting needs to end and soon.

Report abuse

10

jsmith

I cannot wait for the day when the prayers of the ignorant are answered and “the foreigners” are sent packing. Then all those idiots can go back to milking cows and planting tomatoes. No more good schools….no good health service…declining social spending…insufficient taxes…YES, good times on the way!! Cousin dating on the cards again? Most of these “foreigners” are in Guernsey because locals cannot do the jobs, or won’t do the jobs…that is the reality. I have encountered so many locals who hold posts they are unqualified for and would never get those positions anywhere else but Guernsey.Aah, but ignorance is bliss….so glad I got off that boring, xenophobic, small minded, in-bred toilet long ago! So come on….let me hear you stamp your clubbed foot with indignation!!!

Report abuse

12

Andy

The EU will eventually put a stop to any control and we will welcome ethnic diversity like the rest of Europe.

Report abuse

14

FlyingScot

@Paul “What is under review,is the ability open market residents now have to revert to local market houses after they have been here for 7 years or more”

No such provision exists: – essential employment licence holders have to live here 15 consecutive years and local market licence holders 20. Open market residents have NO pathway to ‘qualified resident’ status:

http://www.gov.gg/ccm/navigation/housing/housing-control/qualified-residents/

Report abuse

16

MR G

Completely agree Lisa, jsmith grow up.

Andy, let’s hope we are never part of the EU.

Report abuse

18

eric

If you read the Press article and the piece on today’s front page, you’ll see that the story IS confirmed. Both Deputy Parkinson and Deputy Flouquet have confirmed the OM is being reviewed – which means ‘a formal assessment or examination of something with the possibility or intention of instituting change if necessary’
If memory serves, this goes back to 2007 when Stuart Falla instituted a Labour Utilisation Strategy Group and one of its terms of reference was: ‘How the Open Market can be used to best advantage as part of the Island’s future.’
This is serious stuff.

Report abuse

20

calzone

@jsmith – Get dumped by your girlfriend/boyfriend while you were in Guernsey did you?

Report abuse

22

jsmith

@ Lisa…glad you like it.

Report abuse

24

jsmith

@ Calzone….spread away old chap, spread away!! I do think that people should learn to laugh things off….keeps us sane eh?

Report abuse

26

over here over there

As one who has spent many years in both I would say that at the moment I’d probably rather be here.
However, the slightly smug attitude of some residents in Guernsey can grate at times.
There are many places on the mainland as lovely as Guernsey with similar levels of crime and social dysfunction.
And, I would argue that unless you are comfortably off, Guernsey can be more inhospitable and intolerant than the UK.
For the wealthy it’s very nice here I’m sure, hence the open market amongst other things

Report abuse

28

bishopsroad

The issue is not the open market, or even licence holders. Housing control that body already. The number of persons “converting” from open to licensed status is extremely small. The amount of licenses in issue are not large, relatively speaking. Please let us also remember, and I don’t intend to be provocative, that this is the section which is contributing, either in terms of taxes, or skills, or both.
The real issue is the section which Housing do not control – whatever that means. How do you become a “local”? Birth, growing up here, parentage?
How do you cease to become a “local”? If I am born here, schooled here, then spend my working life in the UK, am I entitled to return, and expect to take benefits from an economy I did not contribute to? What does Guernsey “owe” me in terms of housing etc?
These are the real questions Housing should consider, rather than a few cheap headlines.

Report abuse

30

valeite

There are Open Market rules that in my opinion should be looked into.

I know of a non local lad that rented an open market house and then let each 6 bedrooms to his non local mates, I personally dont think that is right, any thoughts and opinions on this?

Report abuse

32

FlyingScot

@Paul – care to point to a link that supports your assertion?

We are not part of the EU (apart from the Customs Union)- so ‘EU Law’ has no relevance.

Report abuse

34

Terry Langlois

Paul

I think that you may be confusing EU law with the European Convention on Human Rights. The former has no application here, the latter does.

The ECHR draws no distinction between open market residents and local market residents – they are all human and have the same rights. But the difference is that no-one trys to infringe the human rights of the open market resident, as they can stay in their open market home forever. Occasionally a local market resident on a licence claims that their human rights are infringed when their licence comes to an end and they can no longer stay in their home. A few people, when all of their circumstances have been taken into account, have been able to win the argument.

Report abuse

36

Scarlet Pimpernel

Valeite – in regard to your story, from what you’ve said there are 6 bedrooms in an open market house, each with one person.

I don’t have a problem with that arrangement at all as I don’t see it as any different from a non local family with 5 kids living in an open market house.

Now, if there were 4 people squeezed into each bedroom I might think differently.

Report abuse

38

damo

Zimbabwe or Guernsey ?

You choose. Open market is a great thing for the island. For a start Specsavers would never be here !

Kicking the brains and wealth off the island is such a bad idea and the higher house prices mean more put into the local economy. Nt just through estate agents and legal firms, but through higher parish rates etc…

This is a disgusting example of scaremongering by the press. I am a local and am outraged. Quite how a xenophobe who openly made a golliwog comment about president Obama is still a local politician is beyond belief. Flouquet is a disgrace to Guernsey !!!

Report abuse

40

Dave Jones

Ray please see below

As a general rule people who come to Guernsey to live in the open market will never be allowed to move over to the local market. There are rare exceptions but they have to be discussed by the Housing board and it is certainly not an easy route to obtaining local market status. However the children of open market residents can gain local housing status providing they have lived with their parents for 18 years (in other words they were brought to the island at a very young age or they were born in the island) and they can then qualify for local residence providing they have lived in Guernsey for 20 years.

THE OPEN MARKET
Background History

The “open market” was effectively established in 1957 when the Housing Law was amended to exempt dwellings over a specified Rateable Value from control. At that time it was to encourage wealthy entrepreneurs to Guernsey to create jobs and contribute to the Islands economy.

During the 1960′s the relevant Rateable Value level was amended from time to time and a housing development at Fort George was specifically exempted from controls. Very controversial at the time.

In the 1969 Law a Housing Register was set up to establish whether a property was open or local market.

In 1982 the Register was split into Part A (private dwellings) and Part B (hotels/guesthouses).

In 1988 the Register was further divided to create Part C (nursing/residential homes) and Part D (lodging houses).

Parts B, C and D are all subject to controls.

Generally the Register is closed for new inscriptions – this means that any dwelling not currently inscribed in the Housing Register is a controlled “local market” dwelling.

The Housing Register
The Register is split into four parts as follows:
Part A = private dwellings
Part B = hotels and guesthouses.
Part C = nursing/residential homes
Part D = lodging houses [multiple occupation]

Part A – private dwellings
Occupants
An open market dwelling will be inscribed in Part A if it is used as a single family dwelling.
A Part A dwelling can be occupied by the owner/tenant and their immediate family for an indefinite period without the need of a licence. However, each occupant would require a Declaration of Lawful Residence if it were their intention to take up employment in the Island.
These notes are NOT exhaustive and are not to be taken as an authoritative statement of all the provisions that apply to Registered dwellings.
If in any doubt contact should be made with the Housing Control Section.

Part B – hotels and guesthouses
An open market dwelling that is used as a hotel (see definition below) under a valid Boarding Permit issued by the States of Guernsey Tourist Board is inscribed in Part B of the Register.
Occupants
The following are able to occupy a hotel inscribed in Part B without the need of a licence:
o Qualified residents;
o The owner and his immediate family;
o The principal tenant and his immediate family;
o The manager and his immediate family;
o Full time staff of the hotel [provided they are not employed elsewhere];
o Bona fide tourists (for up to 90 days in any period of 12 consecutive months).
ALL OTHER OCCUPANTS WILL REQUIRE A HOUSING LICENCE.
The terms “hotel” and “tourist” are defined in the Law as follows:-
“hotel” means a dwelling, other than a self catering unit, in respect of which there is in force a boarding permit and which, in the opinion of the Authority, is being used for the business of providing sleeping accommodation for reward to tourists in accordance with the provisions of that permit.
“tourist” means a person who is present in Guernsey -
(a) for the purposes of a holiday; or
(b) for an aggregate of not more than 10 days in any 30 day period for the purposes of his employment;
but does not include a person who has been physically present in Guernsey for an aggregate of more than 90 days in any twelve month period.

Deputy Dave Jones

Housing Minister

Report abuse

42

Ray

Dave Jones

Thanks for that.I think this story will run for a while

Report abuse

44

jsmith

Oh dear Sanguine…you married a foreigner???? I can just picture Mr G on his way to your house with a bucket of tar and some feathers mate…..RUN Forrest, RUN!!!

Report abuse

46

jsmith

@ Dave… I made those posts to illustrate to a colleague how long it will take before the anti-foreigner / non-local nonsense rears its head. Did not take long. I do find it curious that Guerns have no problem criticising the UK or other countries with such ease….but cannot seem to take a bit of stick themselves. But, let’s put the record straight once and for all:
1) I was born in Guernsey
2) I liked living there.
3) I think it is a wonderful place to raise kids and have a great lifestyle
4) I do wish that people should be a bit more open towards change.
5) No-one wants Guernsey to lose it’s essential character, but moving forward with responsible development is needed.
6) A population cap is needed…but how to achieve this is really the question. This is not as simple as it seems. How do you place limits on a growing business / family / etc?
7) I would like to know the actual percentages of local / non-locals / temporary workers / essential workers on the island. I think that without these figures a debate on the issue is not really possible. (Maybe Dave Jones can help)
8) Open market occupiers by their very nature contribute a great deal to the Island economy…to alienate these people would be a mistake. The reality is that they give much more back to the island than what they receive.
9) And finally, the previous posts were meant to provoke…but were also tongue in cheek…so c’mon…don’t be so serious!

Report abuse

48

Nick Le P

Dave – you hit the nail on the head re jsmith’s posts, I was about to post the same. In my view a “poster” turns personal when they have nothing of value to add to the debate. Also, in my experience of internet forums the same “posters” claim their offensive comments were not serious when they are challenged.

Now to the point of issue. I am a local living in the UK by choice. I love Guernsey but married a non local who didn’t want to live there. There are aspects of it I miss but others I don’t. However, it is clear that without non-locals the mainstay of employment would disappear. In this regard I don’t think you can separate non-local residents from non- local Companies, such as the finance industry on which you depend.

There may be a case for review of licences and really ensuring that vacancies cannot be filled by a local but the days of Guernsey for the Guernseyman are long gone. That said I do think that as a local I should be able to move back home if I should choose to at some point in the future.

Report abuse

50

Mr G

Sanguine, migrants and foreign money isn’t the lifeline of this island, we coped just fine before all of them came over here.

Report abuse

52

Andy

The EU are already exerting pressure to make us join – it is an empire by the back door and I doubt our ruling elite will be able to resist the incentives offered. I hope however I am wrong.

Report abuse

54

Hello

Alderney needs more residents so if you don’t want them there in Guernsey kindly show them on the map how they can get to us up here. We’re the little island, just to the right, as you look north on a good day.

Report abuse

56

G Hall

Well here we are meddling again lost tourism,,banking finance slipping away,
010 stil in wonderland more regulation
than required and open the mouth
before engaging the brain and bingo you
have just stalled the OM well done chaps
perhaps we should change Guernsey and call
it the Titanic

Report abuse

58

bcb

jsmith
You must be very dissapointed with the result? how many anti foreigner/non-local postings where there after your?.
The fact that you posted such garbage just to get a response for your friend to look at beggers belief.

Report abuse

60

Gary

Didn’t anyone read the article 24 Dec
Rising Rents Force People To Seek Help ?

Bringing in more people will just make rents higher. The States will have to pay more out on subsidized housing.

Report abuse

62

Darren

There are plenty of locals who have open market properties and rent them out to business, or have had them and sold them on at a huge profit.

I am sure that whatever scheme is drafted will keep a few wealthy locals in the manner in which they have become acustomed, i.e. loaded.

Report abuse

64

Paul Le Page

R – I cannot agree with your criticism of the GP. They remind me of those levelled at the BBC when they televised their report about corruption in FIFA before the 2018 World Cup bid.

We don’t want Jo Moore style “bury bad news” spin doctoring. Issues such as this have huge ramifications for the island and it is therefore entirely appropriate that the people of Guernsey are made aware of what is going on as soon as possible.

Unfortunately due to the nature of media communications that means the rest of the world will know as well, but as far as I’m concerned that’s a fair price to pay.

I’m not usually one to defend the GP but as long as their reporting is accurate (that’s a big if!) then as far as I’m concerned they should continue.

Report abuse

66

Eric

Jenny
I don’t buy that at all. Bernard Flouquet had the chance to made that strong statement in favour of the OM and didn’t. He actually confirmed that there is a wide ranging review going on and that it included the OM sector.
What more do you need?
Plus, the main thrust is a look at population control – that’s going to be done ignoring the open Market?

Report abuse

68

g

Isn’t this the same as selling off residence permits?

Report abuse

70

OMandhappy

Sadly, the GP is harming the island by reporting what is effectively an untruth. There have, to date, been no proposals at all for a change in the open market system [source - one of the policy committee]. This is just scaremongering by the GP to sell papers.

The open market system is self regulating and does not contribute to the expansion of the population of Guernsey. As you have seen from Dave Jones’s response, there is almost no crossover between open and local market.

Whereas I normally have little sympathy for Estate Agents, consider the position they are now in on the open market side. That side of the business has been effectively switched off. Also, with no open market sales until this matter is clarified there will be no large document duty payments to the States on open market transactions. This runs to many tens of thousands of pounds per transaction. A revenue stream that has now been stopped in its tracks.

Considering the fact that a review of the open market happens every 10 years and this is no different, the Press have done huge amounts of damage with their inept reporting.

Of course, we could abolish the open market and let anyone come in. House prices on the local market will then feel the full effect of the demand for people to leave the UK and be out of the reach of almost all local people.

That will be the death of the Guernseyman. What politician is going to vote for that?

Report abuse

72

Sanguine

Mr G – Sanguine, migrants and foreign money isn’t the lifeline of this island, we coped just fine before all of them came over here.

Oh yes, how could i forget our tomatoes, flowers, tourism and fishing…. what happened to those again……?

Also how many of our teachers are from the UK, doctors, nurses etc?

I was in hospital recently, and there must have been at least 3 girls from thailand working in nursing (fine job they did to, in fact all of Vic wing did a good job!).

There aren’t enough local people to do the work required here, so face facts…..

Report abuse

74

Sanguine

OMandout

youre quoting the wrong person, i said nothing about coping.

As for your beliefs on tax dodging capital who are you referring too then? Because surely a wealth indivudual moving over and paying tax in guernsey rather than the uk, is beneficial which everway you slice it?

Im sure the stamp duty mr Button paid, was substantial, more than you will pay in your entire life, yet he doesn’t use the services, he pays his own way – net benefit to the island…

Or are you talking about the finance industry, someething which you are clearly in the dark about when it comes to income.

Report abuse