Future of the open market will go to consultation
Thursday 30th December 2010, 2:30PM GMT.
ISLANDERS will be given a say in the future of Guernsey’s open market, it was confirmed yesterday.
Following Treasury minister Charles Parkinson’s comments in a States debate that the open market is ‘in question’, the Policy Council’s Population Policy Group said it would soon be seeking islanders’ views on the issue.
Chairman Deputy Bernard Flouquet (pictured) said the open market would be one of a number of population-related issues the group would ask islanders about.
‘The Population Policy Group is planning a public consultation in the next few weeks which looks at how Guernsey might manage the size and make-up of its population in the future,’ he said.
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There are a finite number of open market houses on this island and neither the residents nor their offspring can ever gain local market status. What we should be reviewing is the large number of ‘foreign’ workers who come to the island and manage by various means to stay here longer than they are allowed to. Many deliberately target local people to form a relationship with in the hope of being granted a compassionate “en-famille” licence when it is time for them to leave. I know of many ‘foreign’ workers who have been living here for a great many years under some form of licence or another. If they then have children they seem to be allowed to stay here until that child has finished it’s education. We no doubt need the ‘foreign’ workers as many locals will not take on the jobs they do but we do not need them staying here indefinitely. There will always be others who will come for the experience. If the States are serious about looking at our population increase they should be looking elsewhere than the open market – many of who contribute a large amount of money in taxes etc.
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The States have been there and done that on several previous occasions. It is just window dressing with no intention of doing anything other than let the population rise for the benefit of the economy. The quality of life for local residents in an overcrowded island will continue to be sacrificed for business interests. Deputy Flouquet when he was a member of the former Housing Authority was particularly vocal against population control, I know him too well to believe he will have changed his stripes. Another consultation with the aim of doing nothing except perhaps pacifying a few radical members of the States.
Dave Barrett
Former President States Population & Migration Committee
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Not read the article but I would think it would be wrong to take away existing open market status on properties as that would force people to leave and maybe lose money on their property, I assume they therefore mean perhaps no new ones. And as I had thought new open market places were rare, so is this a non-story?
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Jas, depends on what the review comes up with. There’s 1,600 OM homes so that’s a lot of people waiting to see what’s proposed. Government reviews rarely say, ‘everything’s fine, no need to do anything’, do they?
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An answer in the States from 2008 on housing licences:
http://www.gov.gg/ccm/housing/press-release/2008/Deputy-Hadley—Housing-Department-response-to-Rule-6-questions.en
Seems like the Open Market is absorbing some former licence holders – and the numbers involved seem pretty small.
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If a new law is made then new brooms are also needed.
I which case get rid of those who made the old laws, and lets start a new year with new government, the old ones are has beens,
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The States should be looking at licence-holders and all those that come here to work and then stay for longer. Open market accommodation restricts by the category that it is given but with local and licence-holder accommodation there is no restriction other than rateable value – this is how the population has spiralled out of control.
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Completely agree with you Queenbee, very well said.
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wow Bernard Flouquet listening to the public,
He must have decided to stand again after not getting his efw plant through. I totally agree with D Barrett. I do notice whenever there is something positive comeing out from PSD Bernard`S picture is right there for all to see.
imo the most untrusted polotician ever.
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@ Islander…a case of Triggers Broom..!!! You can put as many new handles and heads on a broom but it still is and always will be a broom.
Get rid of the those who made the old laws and start with a new government…and do you imagine there’s a whole gaggle of potential “NEW” polititians waiting in the wings to take over, I think not, it’ll be the same ones in a new suit (except Mr Gollop who I can’t imagine in new suit)
When you read the story it’s full of maybes, the last sentence is perhaps more worrying.. “how Guernsey might manage the size and make-up of its population in the future”, Social engineering? There’s a greater issue here other than the open market.
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this is the biggest waste of time since the last paid parking debate! The small population, who live in Open market housing are demographically, some of Guernsey’s most affluent residents. This is reflected in the Open Market house price. Many of these resident also have significant business interests locally and contribute significantly to the economy. If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! I would suggest that tighter controls are placed on those who come to the island on short term licenses and find ways to stay here indefinately. There are also some foreign nationals who repeatdly appear in the Guernsey Press for crimes of violence, deception etc. Why aren;t they sent home?
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In these severe economic times when Guernsey needs to secure future inward investment and attract new wealth to the island the States appears to be scoring an own goal by even opening up this issue to debate.
The fact that the future of the open market is threatened and by inference the value of investments that open market occupiers have already made into the island is also under threat will blight the immediate prospects for the open market and the recent recovery seen in open market sales. Newcomers will already now be discouraged from buying until the outcome of the enquiry is known and the States will suffer a substantial reduction in income from document tax as a result.
However the immediate effect is likely to be insignificant in comparison to the impact that will be experienced if the States is seen to be taking deliberate action that forces discriminatory non market forces losses onto open market residents. Some open market residents at the bottom of the market may be professionals and local business owners who are not particularly wealthy and may not have much ‘clout’. However, others have substantial wealth and influence internationally and may be able to use mechanisms such as appeals for compensation in the courts on the basis that the changes are discriminatory and not being applied to the population as a whole.
Of course this could all be solved by making compensation payments to open market residents but do the States tax payers want to shoulder the costs. Open market property licenses have recently been sought out by property developers through adverts in the Guernsey Press on the basis that with the agreement of the States they can be transferred to newly built apartments. The value of the open market price element offered for such licenses has been in the range £150-£200k for properties at the bottom of the open market. However the average premium value across the whole of the open market is likely to be in the range £350 – £500k per property. With around 1650 open market properties this could amount to a total abolition compensation bill for States taxpayers in the range £600M – £800M.
The most ironic element however is that even if the entire open market population left the island it would do nothing to impact population control as the open market only accounts for around 6% to 8% of the islands total population.
Mishandling of this issue has the makings of an international ‘own goal’ for Guernsey which would eclipse the Landisbanke debacle into complete comparative insignificance.
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The open market rules are one of the few areas which most people believe the States have have got it right.
Now the politicians want to change it!
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Zeldacat said it ,theres nothing wrong with the open market it looks after itself,but there is something very very wrong with the licence holder system and it’s not as queenbee infers (as i take it she may be talking about the more swarthy skinned “foreigners”as i quite like them, but the more pasty, ginger haired, freckly ones who latch on to locals more than anyone )and heres how it works, if Mr x gets a job with Big Bank Guernsey ltd or as director of a states department, for which we have nobody locally qualified ??, although locals have been doing the job for twenty years and could fall into it with their eyes closed, then mr x moves over ,fully licensed to buy local market,and with him/her ,come the missus/hubby who if the other halfs job is well paid enough will swan around in the rangie getting hair /nails done etc, taking up room on the roads and dropping the kids off at beausie ,oh the kids, yes theres three of them aged 16 to 18 and all filling the dustbins ,using electricity and dare we say filling the drains with various things ,a couple of the kids may even have been born here and claim to be guerns, but trust me it dosent make them local, cos if my parents had been in hong kong the year i was born it dosent make me chinese does it, you have to have lived it for a bit longer than that.
Then come the grand parents who couldn’t possibly have carried on in england without the family so out they trot (drains ,rubbish road wear ,medical services etc )Hang on says Mr x i pay my tax ,and yes you do mr x, but due to some clever fenoogling on your accountants part you probably pay less than me, so for your six dependants you are not paying enough, and thanks to our governments past incompetance the bank you work for pays naff all for the privilege either
So there we are Guernsey, we are well overcrowded and this is down to the careless doling out of licences this is what needs looking at
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It is getting closer to the time when you will be FORCED to commence land reclamation schemes. Something that you have (in true head in the sand fashion) pooh poohed in the past, eh? I know one really really fat person here in Australia who, if she was to waddle north to south in Guernsey could elbow half your present population into the sea!
Wakey wakey there donkeys and start by kicking all the illegal immigrants out.
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OK freeze the open market allocation and policy, but eliminate all those other loop holes and licenses and don’t let anyone else in.
No one is essential no matter how large their ego or how important they think they are.
Our quality of life is being degraded by letting too may people in, so be firm and don’t let them in or we will all end up living pitiful low quality lives in tiny an extremely expensive shoe boxes.
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We mustn’t overlook the demographic time bomb. Freezing immigration will give us massive problems in 30 years time when there won’t be anywhere near enough islanders of working age to pay the pensions of the retired islanders.
Controlled immigration is required, not a total freeze on immigration.
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How ironic that the government is considering new ways to let more people in when just a short while ago, 24 Dec, there was an article titled Rising Rents Force People To Seek Help. The only thing more development helps is the developers line their pockets not the locals who can no longer afford to buy a home here.
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If it isn’t broken, why try and fix it? Surely there are many more pressing issues to debate, such as why we still pump raw sewage into the sea…
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Oh Indeed Mrs W.
Let more in, and still no sewage plans.
What a shambles-
Let more in then there will be even more sewage;
No it’s time these states people got a grasp on running things- as it is they couldn’t run an old Ford jalopy
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Isn’t this the same as selling off residence permits/ citizenships?
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I agree that it is the local licencing system that is flawed. I work for a bank and live in open market digs. I rent a room and chose to do that. However, some colleagues came over to the island, were given 15 year licences, allowing their wife and kids to settle. They buy a local market house and the wife and 4 kids attain local status, thus taking housing at a future time.
On an environmental note, a senior manager said to me that his family “HAVE TO HAVE” five cars, or else he and his wife would be ferrying the kids around all day, and they couldn’t possibly get the bus. A separate note, but no wonder the island is over populated with cars too!!!! Something the states should be looking at too.
One further point – why are people from Guernsey allowed to move to the UK and take up housing there?
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Jo, a UK person could move to Guernsey and take up housing here, living in an open market house. However a Guernsey person could move to the UK and take up housing there, but they wouldn’t be able to work, as a Guernsey person with local parents cannot work in the EU.
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The number of open market properties remains virtually static so by implication can be no threat to population growth.
The suggestion that “the open market is in question” has caused very considerable damage already. I know of two high net worth entrepreneurs planning to move to the Island who are now reviewing their position and looking at other offshore destination” which might prove more “friendly”
This Island needs as much tax as it can collect to provide the benefits and infrastructure we currently enjoy. Open market residents contribute considerably in financial terms and indirectly by their spending habits, not the least is the amount invested in upgrading property and the contribution in financial and employment terms for the construction industry.
Estate agents tell me there has been virtually an instant negative effect within the market and one which will only change when a satisfactory outcome is announced. The suggestion that ” a review will take place within weeks” is just not good enough! Bad news spreads quickly, and damage is escalating. The Island needs to know VERY QUICKLY”. Guernsey needs open market owners for their tax, this is not the time to frighten them away!
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What about Guernsey residents with a UK born parent? They can work in the UK. I have friends that have done it and then moved back here, 10 years before retirement. The parents in question were born in the UK in the 30′s and 40′s and came here after the war.
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Mr G, I don’t think that’s quite right. As British citizens we’re all allowed to live and work in the UK, but by acession rules local Guerns with no link at all to the UK are not allowed to live in the EU. (ie. EU countries other than the UK.)
Stand to be corrected…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law
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Mr G,
Only Guernsey-born people none of whose parents and grandparents were born in the EU have no automatic right to work in the EU. However, this does not affect their right to live and work in the UK, because they are British citizens.
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Couldn’t be bothered to research, knew it was something like that.
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