Population shake-up
Thursday 20th January 2011, 2:30PM GMT.
GUERNSEY’S population management regime faces its biggest shake-up ever with the potential for islanders to lose the right to return and the possibility of every islander getting a resident’s permit.
The Policy Council’s Population Policy Group this morning launched its long-awaited consultation on how Guernsey should manage the size and make-up of its population.
It has outlined plans for a new regime based on a system of employment and residence permits.
‘No decisions have been made yet,’ said PPG chairman Bernard Flouquet.
- More details of the report in the Guernsey Press. See below for subscription details.
- To read Guernsey Press stories in full click here for subscription details. Individual editions are now available online.
Island Life
All about Guernsey
Ambassador of the Year 2011
History & Heritage
Visitor Information
Guernsey's government
Campaigns
Voice For Victims
Voice for Victims is a campaign aimed at promoting the rights of those affected by child sexual abuse.
This is Guernsey
Guernsey Press
Useful Links
Be interesting to see how this will affect those who have been here 7 years+ but not the full 15. I’m sure the European Human Rights Laws will be tested if they are asked to change status or even leave the Island.
Report abuse
Am I right in saying this article is worded to suggest local born islanders may loose their rights to return, and non local islanders may gain local status?
What’s wrong with the local system?
Well, I can only say what I think is wrong, I think it’s wrong how foreign workers can reclaim back the tax they payed. Yes, in case you didn’t know, they don’t have to pay tax, surely if the island wants some more money charge everyone that works here tax!
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for immigration, but selective immigration, criteria such as education, integration and personal wealth is all important, at least Australia and America think so, less we introduce a drain on our system.
Some may say it’s unfair how someone born here has the right to live here above someone who wasn’t, but incase you havn’t noticed, that’s how the world works. And being born into a country means you are dependent on it, and then contribute back into it, with a sense of community and loyalty to that community and an interest in bettering it for your children.
Foreign workers I doubt will seat as much pride, you just have to look at the recent lot of graffiti in town as a display of disrespect and defacing our picturesque town which will have a negative effect on tourism.
Report abuse
If we get on to the topic of defacing this beautiful island, what about the local architects and builders that create monstrosities like Admiral Park and the planned development of Nelson Place? Paint can be wiped away – the view at the top of Smith Street will be lost forever if Oseary Estates gets its way!
Having read the population policy document, it would appear to be concentrating on 15% of the population (licence holders). What about the 85% that are local? There is a population problem on this island because of divorce and extremely large families. It is not uncommon for families to have 4+ children. On the basis that procreation and divorce cant be legislated against, I really dont see how the States can improve the population and housing situation
Report abuse
Josh
America?
which part do you mean?.
Report abuse
Are we completely trying to ruin the Open Market? Who in their right mind is going to invest in that section of the market until this is all settled? The Press say the MEDIAN figure is £18,000 and then headline it with the AVERAGE figure – there is a difference. Also those figures are for WORKING open market inhabitants. Many people in that sector are retired.
If we succeed in ruining our open market then we can all kiss goodbye to the lifestyle we take for granted in Guernsey such as the shops and restaurants etc etc. Can the States live without the duty they get on the sale of these type of properties?
The real problem are the “foreign” workers coming into the island and deliberately targeting local men and women to form relationships with. This is far more widespread than people realise with many younger people being duped into a relationship for their local qualification. Poor saps.
Report abuse
I find this extremely worrying. I`ve been on the continent for eleven years now. Does this mean I would not be allowed back on the island I was born and grew up in?! Surely this would be a breach of human rights!
Report abuse
Josh so guest workers don’t pay tax eh!
I trust you can back that up with facts right here and now. perhaps you have a statement from the head of income tax to support what you have said.
Report abuse
The current system is crazy. 15% are on licences and 10% or so are on the open market. So “locals” only make up 75% or so of the population. That figure is probably going to decrease and decrease though, as the housing department keeps giving out more and more licences and the existing licence holders never seem to leave! How can it be far more difficult to get into America than into Guernsey?
Report abuse
@bcb the states, canada, argentina, brazil and chili good enough for you?
Report abuse
Josh / Aimee – I think that the issue is that there are many Guernsey locals scattered all over the world and with the right to return, and if they do all return then we will be in all sorts of trouble (especially if they return when they retire).
I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that people born and raised here should not have preference. I think that the suggestion is that if someone leaves for, say, 20 years, should they lose that right of preference?
As long as any shake-up starts from a date in the future and does not look backwards, then everyone will know that if they leave for a long time they risk losing the right to return.
Queenbee – I don’t think anyone has said anything about the Open Market. The reasons for the open market would still stand and it still has its advantages for the island and so I see no reason for this consultation to affect that.
Report abuse
Queenbee
When you say “foreign” do you include the English in that statement?
Report abuse
Queenbee is correct, the £18,000 for average earnings are based on the social security figures and not the income tax figures. So an extremly rich person living off investments, but not in employment in guernsey would be classed as zero earnings.
In addition migrant workers on six or nine month contracts are inculded, but classed as being in the island for a whole year to work out this average.
The report in question has many pages of caveats and disclaimers which throws into doubt this £18,000 figure.
Report abuse
The population problem (and so many others) would be solved in one fell swoop if some form of birth control were introduced in the island such as a one-child policy. I cannot think why the States haven’t suggested this as an option.
As far as the existing Housing Law is concerned, it would seem that the only major unfairness that needs rectifying is the differing qualifying periods to become a local.
Why should someone married to a local (who might contribute nothing to the island) only have to do 10 years, whilst an essential licence holder (who ostensibly does contribute to the island) have to do 15 years?
And why do the children of essential licence holders (who might spend most of their time outside the island at school and university etc) only have to do 15 years when other people (who are living in the island permanently and might contribute to the island in all sorts of ways in and outside of employment) have to do 20 plus years?
Report abuse
Who would want to return at the moment?? Let me think……beautiful mountains, lakes, forests, beaches deserts, a fantastic city like Vancouver…or a small over populated rock, with a shakey economy and a world class example of unsustainability! Once Guernsey was beautiful….one day it might be again, but it is not at the moment.
Report abuse
Rejection by your home community, way to go Guernsey, you can join a long list of illustrious community like Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and the Balkans!
Report abuse
Why will foreigners be able to stay here after 7 years? Should be 15-20 at least.
Report abuse
The open market statistics in the report are pretty damning. It seems quite hard to justify having a parallel housing system in the island that allows people to get around the licence system.
Report abuse
How can anyone take away the birthright of our children? They were born and some educated in Guernsey only when the system failed them did they have to find education elsewhere! What you are proposing is removing their right and the right of any Guernsey born person to live in what essentially is their Island. Most of the people who have moved away be it permanently or only temporarily have done so to improve their situation or make more of their chosen career, as we all know there are limitations to living on an island! Surely the prospect of being without a homeland is not something that even the members of the States of Guernsey would find encouraging! Look to the immigrant workers for cut backs to the population crisis not true Guernsey men & women!
Report abuse
Certainly some “interesting” ideas contained in the document.
The newspaper’s Editor has highlighted one immediate problem in today’s comment. It concerns the risk that imported teachers would be restricted to only 4 years here before having to leave. (The same would apply to imported nurses and police officers).
Whatever comes out of this, I would hope that those who are genuinely essential to the community, and specifically outside of the commercial world, are able to be included in a separate “exempt” category, because otherwise its completely detrimental to the community as a whole.
Either that, or imported teachers, nurses and police officers should come in initially on a 4-year “probationary” permit, with the knowledge that if they prove themselves to be of the calibre which the island really wishes to keep, then their permit would automatically be upgraded to a 7-year permit at the end of their first 2 years. That gives them sufficient time to prove their calibre, and acts as a safeguard against giving out too many 7-year permits to those who really aren’t ones who we should be looking to keep for the long-term/permanently.
Report abuse
I was born on Guernsey in 1959 to Guernsey born parents of second generation French grandparents that moved to Guernsey from Britany in the late 1800s. My parents still live in the house my grandparents built in 1918. I have a document that states I have Guernsey residence. If the States of Guernsey ever tries to block my right to come back to the Island I will start legal action against the State of Guernsey. I am sick and tired of the small minded local government that has been corupted by the English and international banking system many years ago. Shame on you.
Report abuse
So lets see, under these proposals locals who leave the Island to widen their experience may loose the right to return but those who come here from elsewhere to work, mostly with a mind to stay only a few years anyway but end up wanting to stay, may get the permanent right to stay after only 7 years. How can that be right.
I think the right to return should be retained for ever by those born here to Guernsey born parents.
Creating the right to stay after just 7 years will only serve to Increase the population surely.
What needs fixing is the short term licences for teachers and the like, it must be a major problem for schools to replace a lot of their staff on a near continual basis because of the number of teachers leaving because their licence will not be renewed, It doesn’t do a lot for the quality of education either.
Report abuse
Surely the biggest problem the island faces is that thousands of foreigners form relationships with locals to stay in Guernsey? Putting it bluntly, isn’t that what is happening? Whether locals meet people on holiday, or when foreigners are over here working or if locals find them on the internet etc. Once they are here, they tend to stay and procreate. Scapegoating the dwindling number of Open Market residents, most of whom are too old to breed, just confuses the real issue.
Report abuse
If one were to lose the ‘right to return’, how would this affect that inconvenient little paragraph in the back of our passports that says, “Holder is not entitled to benefit from EC provisions relating to employment of establishment”?
Whilst it is usually overlooked by Eurocrats, it is, technically, a declaration that citizens of Guernsey are not actually entitled to the same freedom of residence within the EU as other UK passport holders. The price we pay for knowing we can always return ‘home’ is about to become a worthless and potentially problematic handicap.
Or am I missing something?
Report abuse
Terry – There has been quite an amount of coverage in the Press regarding the open market situation. Estate agents are concerned that all this negative press is going to ruin the market.
Dave Jones – Whilst not wishing to sound zenophobic you can include the English if you wish but when I said foreign I meant foreign. And why mention just the English? Scottish, Irish and Welsh people live here too.
Matt – Thank you for pointing out the biased way the income figure has been calculated.
Also as a final point – how many of the general public do the States think are going to complete the very long and very complicated consultation document online??
Report abuse
Those with longer memories will see Bernard is just re-hashing the political tactics of his former boss John L. Simply by introducing the possibility of stopping locals returning will cause a flood of objections, which is what is wanted at this consultation stage. The public resistance then forms a “prima facie” case for doing nothing. This is all hot air anyway because the Law Officers will and previously have advised that the Privy Council would not approve the legislation anyway because it contravenes human rights. Deputy Flouquet is not going to let that fact spoil his day in the spotlight.
Every decade Guernsey goes through this consultation and States Debate and always decides to do nothing useful because its all too difficult and bad for business.
Report abuse
It would appear reading the document and the summary in the paper that the 7 year figure has come from minimising the threat of human rights challenge cases of people wanting to stay.
Personally worst thing Guernsey did was sign up to that can of worms.
However I feel it would be worth staying with 15-20 years of living before gaining qualification and deal with the few cases who want to stay and would otherwise challenge it.
Re the rest, they most likely would leave anway. Far better situation then giving out residency to all who stay for 7 years.
Report abuse
Queenbee – I take your point about the press coverage, but the consulation document makes it quite clear that there are no proposals. Press speculation is causing any damage, not the decision to seek the public’s views on the future of the OM. Or should the public not even be asked?
It is up to all of us (and expecially the media) to not get hysterical and state that anyone is planning to end the OM, when this is nothing of the sort. Those sorts of statements are the cause of any anxiety in the market.
Bill Yeager – good point
Tim Chauvel – so do you think it is right that someone who leaves the island and 18 and works abroad can then return at 65 and be a drain on a society that they have contributed nothing towards? These issues matter when space is at a premium.
It is entirely right that locals should be able (and encouraged) to go off, experience the world, gain valuable skills and be able to return. But surely there comes a point when their return is not to the benefit of the island or those that have contributed towards its community during those intervening years? I am thinking 20 years, or maybe longer.
Report abuse
I am outraged that somone would suggest that “foreigners” would target the local population just for housing advantage. The real reason is that few foreigners can resist the good looks and charm of the average Guern and are naturally drawn to them
Report abuse
Its nice to see all the bigots and insular thinking islanders at work. I was born on Guernsey, been to war for islands who suffered similiar fates to ours, and have a foreign wife. When we came back she was subjected to terrible abuse for not been “local” and I watch the islanders selling themselves off to the highest bidder, namely the finance industry. We left after 15 years because she could no longer take the crap and I was ashamed to watch the island declining in its so called progress. I think that islanders should have the right to return but I don’t think it will be me coming back. The Donkey’s have managed to destroy what could of been something special.
Report abuse
Queenbee
You are quite right of course; I could have mentioned the Scots, Welsh and the Irish. The point I am trying to make is that to Guernsey people of long standing Norman families we are all foreigners to them and i fully accept their view.
Report abuse
kevin my wife when on contract used to claim back every penny and thoes working with her so what do you say now?
Report abuse
Dave Barrett – removing the right to return would not contravene human rights. You have a right to respect for your family and private life – which is often applied as a right to respect for your home. But if you’ve spent 20 years overseas, you could hardly claim that your home is Guernsey. It is then nothing more than your place of birth or origin and there is no human right which gives to a right to return there.
That’s not to say that I think that it should be removed, but it is worth discussing and human rights are not an obstacle.
Report abuse
I’m personally quite happy that the qualification period would be reduced to 7 years. Its nice to see human rights being considered. : )
Report abuse
When looking at whether a Guernsey-born person should ever lose their right to return, I think that a distinction must be drawn between somebody who was simply born here, and someone who was both born and brought up here. In other words there are hugely varying degrees of “birthright”.
You could be born here simply because your parents were working here on a 1-year or 4-year permit and then left, and that’s got to be different from being born and educated here with one or more Guernsey parents and one or more Guernsey grandparents. The former should perhaps have to become resident again by the age of 30 (to contribute to the economy) if their automatic right to return here is not to be surrendered.
People born here and/or brought up here (don’t forget that you could also be born off-island to two Guernsey-born parents who happened to be working away for a couple of years and then spend your entire life here) should be given some form of protected status. Whether that’s perpetual or whether it should expire at say aged 50 is a moot and controversial point.
Up until aged 50 a returning Guernsey-born person who was brought up here is likely to be able to contribute significantly to the economy by joining the local workforce for at least 10 years. As Guernsey taxpayers’ money will have been spent educating them originally, surely we should welcome a return on that investment by welcoming them back ?
Report abuse
So, after university, I will plan on living in England for a few years, to get experience in my chosen profession, and save up money to pay for our stupidly expensive houses. Are you telling me that in the process of saving up to live in the Island, I will lose my right to live in the island.
Report abuse
Was the banning of Guernsey born people returning with local residential status previously attempted in the 50 or 60′s?
I may be wrong, but I recall I was told by my Father that there was a chance that I would never be able to return and live in Guernsey.
I was serving a 12 year engagement in the RAF at the time.
Report abuse
Wow this is dilly of a pickle!!
Can open…… worms everywhere!!
Heres a question for you.
Who is more deserving of being a local resident? (these are not real examples btw, jus some food for thought)
1. Someone who was born in Guernsey, got bored as a teenager, left the island at 18 because there was nothing to do, spent 40 years in the UK, then when nearing retirement age, decided that Guernsey is a much better place to live now that they are older and now comes back with eyes firmley set on a pension.
Or
2. A non guernsey resident who has spent 9 out of every 12 months for the last 40 years working in a greenhouse in Guernsey, someone who has paid taxes here for 40 years and has a deep love of the island and would love to stay but if they want to retire they have to go back to where they came from.
Simple question, but bear in mind when you answer, its a lottery where you are born, you cannot choose that, but you can choose where you live your life, IMO someone who chooses to spend the bulk of their life living in Guernsey is far more deserving of someone who’s birthright it will always be to retun, even though they chose to live elsewhere.
Report abuse
Loving some of these “have your cake and eat it” style comments which are so typical of Guerns!!
Report abuse
Correct me if I`m wrong but don`t retired people draw their pensions from the places they worked in? If so then it shouldn`t matter if a Guern only returns at 65, he wouldn`t drain the island`s pension fund anyway.
Report abuse
Dom Juan, I doubt the non local would be paying much tax, if any as they would be a holiday worker.
Report abuse
It would be so wrong to stop someone who had been born and spent their childhood in guernsey and have a guernsey parent from returning.
Surely that would be so wrong?
Report abuse
Personally I am delighted that after 5 -7 years I won’t be slung off your Island after looking after your ageing population for so long and thoroughly enjoying it.
My partner & I both work in careers which could take us anywhere in the world, we choose Guernsey.
May I also add we both have a 5 year essential licence. It means we are working for the good of your people.
Why shouldn’t we be allowed to stay?
We don’t have children, pay our taxes and contribute to your community, we are not a drain on you at all.
Just something to consider,the hospital recently had 20 plus nursing vacancies to fill was shutting wards due to staff shortages, people need security, it works both ways, welcome the people you need and the community thrives.
Thank you for reading.
Report abuse
Mr G
You should be careful beleiving spurious rumours propogated on an internet forum!
Regardless of the contribution in taxes (I’m sure some scaremongerors will tell us the orrible foreigners never have and never will pay tax), the fact is the person in the example above would still have contributed to guernsey economy for 40 years.
Report abuse
Neither the ‘returning Guerns’ nor Open Marget residents (whose numbers have declined steadily for the last 30 years) are the cause of overpopultion. Their numbers are not huge and neither class is likely to be troubling the maternity ward. The real problem is the thousands of young, fertile immigrants of all kinds, many of whom have children with local people. We all know it happens a lot but I guess it is seen as politically correct to focus on Guerns or Brits living in Open Market houses.
Report abuse
man/woman 100% local, retires, guernsey pension,leaves because of the high cost of living at the age of 60/65. is he/she going to be stopped from returning ?
Report abuse
Nursie
I just want to make a few of points on your post. The first is, that you are not being “slung of the island” if your license was not renewed for any reason then you would only be observing the original length of your license period, that you must have agreed to before you came to the island. I would also add the community is always grateful to all the public sector employees who come to the island to work for the benefit of this community over the period of their license. Secondly the periods listed in the consultation document are for discussion only, the final decision on whether it is 7-8 or 10 years or whatever, will be decided by the States of Guernsey. It is simply not possible for everyone who comes to work in Guernsey to be allowed permanent residency, there are thousands of applications for licenses of various lengths every year to the Housing Department, most of them are employment related. If all these applicants were allowed to remain in Guernsey permanently once their license period ended, the island population would soon become unmanageable and the quality of life for everybody would deteriorate rapidly.
Finally your point on Nurses is well made, however I understand from HSSD that there are close to 40 nurses going through our local training courses at the moment, now while I accept that it is possible not all will make it through we are doing our best to get as many local Nurses as we can into our health service, in order that we have to rely less on bringing trained nurses into the island.
Deputy Dave Jones
Housing Minister.
Report abuse
I have seen a number of people, some couples / married, who have worked in Guernsey for over 5 years, or 10 years combined, in roles that were hard to fill due to specialist skillsets, told to go.
It is heartbreaking for those people who come here and make freinds across the island, give up the things they know, including friends etc, only to have to start again from scratch some years later.
I know of one couple who were enticed at the outset – before they came to Guernsey – that ‘even though we are starting with you on a 5 year licence it is very likely that this will be extended to 15 years’. They got to year 5 only to be given a 2.5 year extension with another promise it would be exterded later.
Both of them were heartbroke and had to leave with nothing, and as the States had not allowed them to buy locally (as the GV was well over the going rate) they missed out on income from property price rises.
It is shocking the way some are treated.
Report abuse
@Dave 7.53
That is idiotic scaremongering,unless we had a never ending expansion of both the public and private sector job market then all of these people couldnt stay.
The issue is that most of these licences are churning different people into the same jobs and the disruption that causes to employer and employee alike.
Of course there would be some jobs growth if you have succesful industry and of course in the bloated public sector, but dont try and kid people on here that there are hoards at the gates, without employment the vast majority could not and would not come here !
Report abuse
Ginja Ninja
I am afraid your take on the situation is not strictly true. Staff at Housing control process thousands of applications for licenses every year that is a fact and when the board is deciding on licenses it is always a question of balance, weighing up what people the island needs to run its economy and public services, against the rights and opportunity of local people to find jobs in their island home. I will give you an example, we used to give several licenses to Primary School teachers, we presently don’t give any because the situation has improved dramatically over the last few years and we have had enough local people returning to fill these primary school posts. The situation is not the same however in the secondary schools and Education is still having to recruit from outside the island to fill many of these posts. It is also worth remembering that we have no wish to block jobs for returning local candidates by issuing too many 15 year licenses and there are several instances where local people have replaced public sector employees and those in jobs the business community as a whole, who have been on a five year license.
Report abuse
Darren, it’s not shocking at all, they had a 5 year license, they should’ve expected that they were only going to be here for 5 years, and there’s a slight possibility of staying longer.
Dave Jones, that’s great to here that the local nurse scheme is working well, let’s hope we have more local nurses in the future.
Report abuse
Darren
NO States department or private business should be telling employees that their license term will be extended and if they are doing so then they are seriously misleading applicants for these posts. The only people, who can determine the length of a license or any extension, are those at the Housing Department. Of course people build up friendships when they live and work in a country for short periods of time and it is always hard for people when they have to leave a place and friends they have become fond of. People however do have a choice as to whether they want to locate to Guernsey on a temporary basis to fill a certain job or not. People go to jurisdictions all around the world that have work permits and resident permits, visas or other document that determine the persons length of stay. The conditions of these permits are clearly laid out to make the applicant aware of their obligations under the law of the country before they move to their new place of employment or stay. You can get visas extended but it is difficult and in many countries if you overstay your visa, you can be barred from returning to the country again for significant periods. Guernsey is no different it has its own laws and people have to abide by those laws, it has a tiny land mass and simply could not sustain the number of people who want to stay.
Report abuse
The balance that the Population review Group are seeking could most likely be obtained by less generous support for too many children, tax dis-incentives for divorce, tougher licencing and time limits on returning to the island.
The statistics in the report appear to indicate that the Open Market is not the problem, although perhaps the States could buy some Open Market properties whilst prices are depressed by the scare mongering, and then remove them from the Register without risk of being sued.
Report abuse
Call to action! – For any Guernsey born Islander who grew up on the rock and now lives overseas and is reading this blog, I recommend that we organize in order to protect our right of return to the island of our birth and to also highlight the historic human rights abuses of native born islanders that were denied EU status in the 1970s and are now being threatened with forced permanent exile. I propose the setting up of an external website, international media outreach and legal action if required. Such an effort will require resources and a global team to get the message out. The States of Guernsey (and the International Banking interests) needs to be “outed” for what they have done to the local islanders. Anyone can contact me directly at chauvelt@gmail.com . More information to come soon.
Report abuse
Dave Jones,
In respose to your reply.
Perhaps “Slung off your Island” was too strong, but I cannot change the way I feel and why shouldn’t I express myself. I fully understand the agreement I made when I came to fill the Nursing vacancy over here. I’d also like to outline that like it or not there also needs to be a skill mix of people in those roles for the good of any population, despite any recruitment drive, as welcome as it is.
The recent reports in local media gave me a glimmer of hope that it may have been possible to stay, obviously I will move on, because I know my worth and experience and it’s as simple as that.
I am not about to get into a debate with the Housing Minister, that’s not why I posted initially.
Regards, Nursie
Report abuse
Tim Chauvel
I fear not only would you be misleading many Island born residents living abroad but you would be wasting your legal team’s time. No part of any new law would be retrospective; anyone who has established rights under the existing law will have those same rights under any new law.
Dave Jones
Member of the Population working group.
Report abuse
Nursie
I do not want to give the impression that I was being deliberately insensitive, I understand fully how people fall in love with Guernsey, it happened to me and my wife who is from a long standing old Norman family and who would never live anywhere else, so I am afraid the Island is stuck with me. It is possible to get a licence extension if your employer makes a case to housing that recruiting in the areas that you and your partner work in is particularly difficult, and in your case we are getting two health professionals for one licence, which is a real plus. The skill mix you refer to is vital and we fully support all the efforts being made by Health and SSD in trying to make sure the island has a regular pool of skilled people to work in the community, in all walks of life, not just our public services. The recent reports in the media basically say that everything is up for discussion and I am sorry if people read into those reports something that may or may not be future policy. The population group urges all who are effected by the present law and all members of the public who have a view on how we can move forward while at the same time keeping our population at manageable levels to get their views heard. Whatever the new law looks like, there will be restrictions, that I think has been generally accepted by everyone as a given. While I cannot discuss your particular case in detail, I am happy to discuss the present law and the avenues open to employers who wish to keep key staff beyond the original licence period agreed. I thank all our Nurses wherever they come from, for the care and professionalism they bring to our health service and I apologise to you if you thought that my post was a little cold and unfeeling.
Report abuse
There are many nations in the world who do not allow dual citizenship. If Guernsey has a population problem (and most countries on Earth no matter what their size state they have a population problem and have their own excuses why) then I suppose it makes sense that IF a person with Guernsey Residential status chooses to become a citizen of another country THEN they give up their local status. It is fair. It would be their choice after all. Put the onus on individuals to decide. If a person later decides they want to return then there is always the compassionate route.
In the area of Open Market Housing, this was put in place to entice the super rich to Guernsey. In many cases this area of housing is not being used for this purpose. Many open market properties are used to house struggling middle to working class persons who pay no more tax than average. Perhaps open market properties need to be reclassed due to their actual worth? Maybe an open market property should be defined as all those in the top 5% in each parish of Guernsey? Perhaps this could also be applied to license holders so that instead of using RV/TRP to define what kind of house they can purchase they must occupy a house above the medium purchase price for that year? Seems simpler to me but if any changes are made which decrease some property values then some compensation should definitely apply.
Another issue with open market properties is that many persons who would usually have licenses live in open market properties because their employers prefer to squash a few employees together in the one open market house to save the costs of license application and avoid retention issues. This should be looked at in conjunction with the above.
I understand that there is a certain amount of money that goes towards subsidising/funding grants or student loans etc for school leavers who go off island to attend courses or university? Why not limit financial aid/help to persons studying for jobs in essential services? for example, anything in the health services or teaching. Also it would be helpful to put in a clause that recipients of financial aid must work on island for a number of years or pay the money back straight away (just as many finance companies do with their employees when they pay for their courses).
I personally know many many license holders and know of none who come from sunnier 1st world countries who see themselves retiring here. Research would need to be done in this area to confirm this observation. If the problem is fear of persons retiring here and using the health services more (due to age) getting pensions etc then why not target recruiting to these countries and less to countries with worse climates than Guernsey.
These are just my personal thoughts. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Policy Councils Population Group in the future. Im looking forward to further discussions and future comments from Dave Jones who has taken the time to correct misinformation and gives us a clear accurate picture of what is actually going on.
Report abuse
I lived in Guernsey for 12 years. I worked in the finance industry and I was never unemployed, always paid my taxes and was involved in a lot of charity work helping to raise money for local causes.
During my time in Guernsey, I met my now ex-spouse. They just happened to be a local, it was never my intention to “pick” a local for the sake of them being local. How anyone can do that is beyond me!
Unfortunately my marriage ended in divorce. I lost everything,from my home to my right to work! I ended up living in open market market accomodation paying a fortune for what was essentially a bedroom.
Despite the fact that I had very good friendships and a life established over 12 years, a very good job and I considered Guernsey to be my home, (my whole life was in Guernsey), I had to walk away from everything. I could not rely on a relationship with a local and I didn’t want to go through losing everything again, that would have always been at the back of my mind had a decided to live with a local partner.
I could afford to buy a local market property on my own, just couldn’t live in it because of the housing laws!!! I have a friend in Guernsey who has been there over the time period when you can qualify as local, every year she applies, every year she is turned down!
It was the hardest decision I have ever made, and I miss Guernsey and my friends there very much. Those 12 years were the longest I have spent in one place, so I really really consider it to be home.
I also know that people do “play” the system, something I could never have done.
No matter what, you can’t please everyone when introducing new laws. I just hope no one has to go through what I did as a result of the new laws!! People are not just numbers or statistics!!
Report abuse
Wil
One important point re. your post above – Guernsey people are NOT “citizens” of Guernsey! There is no such thing. We are British nationals under the UK’s Immigration and Nationality Act. Having the right to reside here is not the same as being a “citizen” or a “national” of Guernsey. The British Government represents us when we are abroad.
If you go to South America, for example, and get into trouble or have an accident, you’ll have your work cut out trying to find the Guernsey Consulate’s Office to help you!
I’d like to see Guernsey, as part of these new population proposals, issue a “belonger” status for those with residential status, which would sit perfectly alongside our British citizenship.
Report abuse
the barron,
my information is that you can claim back tax if you have not earned enough to pay tax in your 9 months here. I would like Deputy Dave Jones to clear this one up for us .But I reckon you might need to take advantage of the current tax amnesty.
Report abuse
I may have missed the point (above) I’m about to throw in. Apologies if this is the case.
Surely the elephant in the room is the actual size of the population.
What is critical mass? At what point do we reach the maximum number living on the island before the infrastructure (and quality of life) falls apart?
Or are we going for the “constant growth” scenario – as has been happening over the past 60 years?
I would hope that a sustainability model has also been looked at.
I’m having trouble getting my sh*t pit emptied as it is…
Report abuse
To Dave Jones,
Thanks for all the clarification and your time spend responding to everyone. However, I suggest that as this review process moves forward, you and your team clearly outline the issues in the media. I have been contacted by some of the older folks on Guernsey and they are confused as to what is being proposed.
Report abuse
Can I just ask Mr Jones something.
If the new proposals relate to employment permits (and not to housing as is currently the case), does that mean people who have already been on the Island for 7 years (either through licence, open market or a combination of both) will subsequently be allowed to stay, work and live in either band of housing etc?
Under those circumstances, I cannot see the States being able to defy European Law on individual rights. This could mean a transfer of people from open market to the less expensive local market propoerties.
Report abuse
Gilthead
I’m about a quarter way through reading the printed document (available free at the Custard Castle)
By what I’ve taken in so far one of the major problems is not so much the size of the population ( which is already 1,000+ over the recommended 61,000), although of course that is very important,it is the AGE of the population as expected in the next ten to twenty years which is causing great concern
Far too few youngsters supporting the pensions and health needs of far too many oldies.We appear to need more babies and fewer wrinklies if Guernsey is going to survive
The whole thing looks very complex and I suspect that by the time all the necessary consultation has finished,coupled with the time it will take to prepare for States debate and then drafted into legalese and passed into law by the Queen ( probably King by then )ten to fifteen years will have flown by,and who knows what the general picture will be by then?
This exercise probably requires progression at a rate somewhat faster than the usual soporific speed of States action as we have come to know it
Report abuse
Tim
The Population Group and their staff will be doing some public road shows during the process, which hopefully the public will come to in large numbers.
Report abuse
Jim
The Population Group and their staff will be doing some public road shows during the process, which hopefully the public will come to in large numbers.On your other point on HR, section 2 of article 8 which is the section on Home & Family life says the following “There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others” (end quote) Each potential HR case is different and I think there will be challenges in the future whatever permit system we had and they will continue to be defended on their individual merits but it would be wrong to assume that because someone has been here for 7 years and is asked to leave, that is a position that is not defendable by the States. The truth is I don’t know what the new law will look like and the period of time when someone will get automatic permanent residency will be decided by the states. I hope that helps
Report abuse
Jim
It has already been recognized by the European Court that small island communities can interfere in the Human rights of individuals if it is in the best interests of the community as a whole. For instance section 2 of article 8 which is the section on Home & Family life says the following “There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others”. Each potential HR case is difference and I think there will be challenges in the future whatever permit system we had and they will continue to be defended on their individual merits but would be wrong to assume that because someone has been here for 7 years that is a position that is not defendable by the States. The truth is I don’t know what the new law will look time and the period of time when someone will get automatic permanent residency will be decided by the states. I hope that helps
Report abuse
Kevin I will try and find out the answer to your qustion on tax when I have a min
Report abuse
Dave Jones,
Thanks for your generous response and all the information provided.
It’s obviously a huge shake up for all living here
whatever their circumstances.
We had a bit of a discussion in our house about this forum and our exchange and my chap was pretty rattled about me twittering on. In the end he thrust the “Rough Guide to Canada” into my hands and we both had a good laugh about life in general.
What I am trying to express, is, however long we are permitted to stay we shall do so because we enjoy it, but when it’s time to go we’ll continue with our adventure. I shouldn’t have read into anything.
Report abuse
Ray
Thanks but I have already got a copy.
Yes there certainly is concern over the growing pension/health etc bills. I can appreciate that.
However, my point remains, at what stage do we meet critical mass? Lets assume that by widening my cesspit analogy we are almost there in terms of the current infrastructure capability. We also have a fiscal gap that needs filling because of the oldun’s. So 5000 more people are needed to fund the gap. Easy!
Except that we’ll need to expand the infrastructure accordingly – which is going to cost. So we need more people…and so it goes on.
This issue needs some clever thinking and not the canon fodder approach.
Report abuse
Flawed though our ‘local market’ / ‘open market’ system may be, it has just about managed to keep the lid on immigration for the last few decades and it has given local people a chance to stay living in their island.
Yes, it poses problems for local employers who need to find qualified staff from outside of Guernsey, but that is a fact of life when you operate in a small island – deal with it.
Never mind EU rules on human rights or political interference from elsewhere – those jurisidictions have absolutely no idea of the population pressures faced by a small island such as this. Ignore them, we have got to stick with a system that works for us.
Unless someone can come up with a better system than the one we have got now (and one which prioritises needs of islanders above all) then I suggest we leave the current system alone.
Sadly the careers of politicians like Mr Flouquet were never advanced by a policy of doing nothing – hence, I suspect – this latest initiative.
Report abuse
I am local by birth and have lived here many yeays and have a house here, but work and family reasons mean i really have no choice but to also spend quite a few years elsewhere. Should i ever be told i cannot live in my guernsey home i would think that grossly wrong.
Report abuse
Mr Jones, why have small leaflets been given out to every home owner on the island? All that information is available in the Phone book about who to call etc. if we ever get floods or earthquakes.
Shouldn’t your department be saving money?
Report abuse
To Dave Jones
Dear Mr Jones
Thank you for your help, but to be absolutely clear. I interpret your comment to Tim Chauvel of Jan 23 at 9.36 am above as being to the effect that someone born to local parents and educated in the island until the age of 21 (and therefore presently qualified to reside in Guernsey under several sections of the present law) will never be able to lose that right, irrespective of any period of absence from the island.
I trust your working group has also noted that neither the Jersey nor the Isle of Man authorities have sought to take power to deprive their people of rights of residence acquired by birth by virtue of their absence from those islands (and will give this appropriate consideration in framing the new legislation).
Report abuse
I moved away from Guernsey a few years ago, mostly to get away and experience the big wide world… I soon ended up in Bristol. I was born and raised in St Peters and while my dad has always told me to check my local status while I am living away from the island I thought it would be rediculous for the States to refuse me Local Status when I choose to move back, after all I was born in the Princess Elizabeth Hospital.
I am still astounded from the fact that some pencil sharpening statesmen will tear up my Local status because I choose to not live an island sheltered life for a few years. Yeah I agree that if my children are born some where else then they don’t get my local license but to remove someones local rights because they have travelled out of one parish, onto a boat and lived in a bigger island is disgraceful.
Report abuse
Mr G
It is not my department sending out the leaflets; it is the policy Council working group on Population. There may be some duplicate information on the leaflets but it is part of the consultation process and anything that gives the public the information they need is OK by me.
Julian
I repeat anyone who currently enjoys the right of being locally qualified under the present law, will have the same rights preserved under any new law. On your second point, I have answered it with my first paragraph
Donkey Abroad
Under the present law if you spent 10 years in Guernsey prior to your departure and can provide proof of that residency, you will keep the right to return. As for where you were born, are you suggesting that anyone born in Guernsey should have the automatic right to live here if you are then there really would be a population explosion as those who liked the island could arrange to be in Guernsey when their child is due. There are no proposals to tare up the legitimate rights of local people.
Report abuse
Just wanted to add that there are missconceptions such as that posted by Donkey Abroad.
I am taking the time to read the full proposal and am slowly making my way through doing the survey too.
I aplogise for quoting out of reference, but the following I have taken addresses those that are qualified local but have currently left the Island.
‘There is no proposal to change the rights to return of existing Qualified Residents.’
Report abuse
People here are clamouring about the idea of qualified residents losing their qualified status and right of return if they were to leave Guernsey for a long period of time, but actually there is already a far harsher provision in the existing law which strips certain people of their qualified status should they move away from Guernsey for any length of time however small.
I don’t see the population problem ever being solved so long as the States continues to allow parents to have as many children as they want (and pays them too) and doesn’t allow people to choose to end their own lives.
Report abuse
Can someone please forward me a pdf copy of the proposal/supporting information, I can’t seem to find a copy online. My email address is chauvelt@gmail.com . Thanks.
Report abuse
Tim – go to http://www.gov.gg/population
Report abuse
NewUser,
I sympathise with you….it’s best I do, as Dave Jones will not. As you can see he is keen to represent himself, but not those who have been put out of place by the system.
Dep Jones. In response to your last statement, it was a LEADING Gsy figure who promised the extension to 15 years, from the outset. So don’t kid yourself that the people who suffered were a bit simple. I witnessed it all, and those poor souls lives have been ruined, all because they chose to believe the States of Guernsey as an employer and protector of their rights.
SoG should be ashamed of itself.
Report abuse
Dave Jones,
If a person was housed on the island for 6 years, offered an extension to 7.5 years, but was told they had to leave the island for a minimum of 3 years before returning, then they surely would be eligible for permanent status, particularly under Human Rights?
This is the scenario acted out by one of my friends who had a 5 year licence, extended to 7.5 then had to leave as dictated by SoG. Surely these people, who have a life in Gsy are entitled to residency?
Report abuse
Mr Jones
I think everyone understands that population is an issue for a small island and I understand why your group has undertaken the consultation, but I wonder whether it was appropriate to raise the emotive issue that a person may lose his/her rights of residency by virtue of absence from the island in the way it has.
Art 8(2) to which your refer only appears to permit interference in the applicable right if it is “necessary”. That may be a difficult test to satisfy to a court’s satisfaction. A mere theoretical or negligible risk may not suffice. Maybe I’m missing something, but I struggle to find any analysis in the document of the numbers of qualified residents who live off island or how many of them typically return in any given period.
Absent that or similar analysis, it is impossible to assess what their risk of return en masse may represent to the island – although I have never heard of that happening before – are there any instances? Accordingly, I find it hard to see how a court could find that restricting their rights to return is “necessary” if no one has any idea of whether there is any real risk at all.
On the other hand, if that or a similar analysis exists, it should have been included in the consultation so that people can consider it (or the consultation would be flawed on this point).
Report abuse
I have lived in Guernsey for 7 years, 3 under licence to a bank, and four in open market. On the basis that I have my life here (friends, boyfriend,job etc), surely under the human rights provisions I have a right to stay? If the answer is “no, you are in OM”, then do human rights not apply to OM residents? I’m sure the likes of Guy Hands and Jenson Button would like to know that!
Report abuse
Darren
First of all I am not representing myself, the comments I make are based on the current Housing Control law passed by the States many years before I became a Deputy. Your last couple of paragraphs in your first post 8.10 am are meaningless to me, as I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to.
Your second post is perhaps easier to address
If a license holder has received an extension to his original license, in this case you tell me it was extended to 7 ½ years, that is perfectly feasible. I doubt very much the Housing department would have told him that he had to leave but could come back after 3 years that part of your statement makes no sense. A court has the power to put it to an individual that they leave the island for three yeas as an alternative to another sentence but I cannot conceive what the circumstances might be for Housing to make such an order. As for human rights every HR case is different, there is no blanket rule and the courts will make a ruling based on the evidence. Finally people have a right to residency under our laws, those laws can be challenged but as I have said before we as an island government have a perfect right to have controls where they are deemed necessary.
Julian G
In any consultation on population there are NO aspects of the subject that should be off limits in our view. The feed back we get will give us some idea of what people feel about the right to return and a host of other related issues. We will listen to all shades of opinion wherever it comes from. There are some local people who have indicated that they do not think that people who left when they were very small children, should have an automatic right to return. Some think that it is wrong for these people to come back simply because they wish to avail themselves of the excellent health and other public services that none of them have contributed towards for over 50 years. There will be others of course who will say that if you are Guernsey born and bred from a Guernsey family, then you should be able to come back to your island home anytime you choose and again that is a powerful argument. Exactly how many qualified local people there are living elsewhere? We have no real idea, I suspect it could be many thousands. But many will return at varying lengths of time, some after only ten or twelve years away, some after four or five and some will come back to retire after 30-40 years after they left, some will be locally qualified other won’t and this has been happening for decades. Also there are no human rights that I am aware of, that affords you the right if you have not lived in a place for many years to return, other than in the case of Guernsey, what is laid down under the existing law. You say Article 8/2 refers to the right to interfere if it is necessary, however if you finish the sentence it says “in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others”. Now the new law may deem it necessary to interfere with those rights in the interest of the community as a whole for several of the reasons listed in article 8. I would argue that It is permitted to do so under section 2 of article 8. Other suggestions I have had already, argue that instead of getting into arguments over human rights when people are here, it would be better to prevent them coming in the first place as there is no such human right that gives you the right to go and live in theses islands and you only really start accruing them when you are here. One other suggestion is that we prevent people on short term licenses or permits from buying properties in Guernsey, another is that all public sector employees brought in should only live in Key worker housing operated by the States. There are many more variations of the same but it is all up for discussion.
Report abuse
Aimee
Each HR challenge is considered on its individual merits. Renting OM is not the same as owning OM but I am not going to get bogged down reviewing individual housing situations on this forum.
Report abuse
Aimee
The answer is that, yes, human rights apply to you but no, your human rights are not being violated.
You are staying here and the laws allow you to stay here. It is just that you are doing so by living in an OM house.
Report abuse
Darren – Thank you very much for that comment. It is devestating to be put in that position!
Aimee – 8 of my 12 years were spent under local licence and four were open market. During that 4 year period I tried everything to stay. I tried to make them see it from this point – Until I was 16 I had to live where my parents decided I should. I was in full time eduction until I was 18. At 19 years old I went to Guernsey. I was there until I was 31 years old, therefore, I had spent the majority of my adult life to date there. I pointed out my good job, my social life, my assistance in the community and that Guernsey was in fact the place where I had spent the longest time. But it fell on deaf ears! Friends of a friend of mine came over, put their children into schools and ended up getting local market status (not sure how), bought a house and Guernsey is their home!! That was pretty hard to understand!
Please don’t get me wrong, I am not bitter, I am now re-married and have a gorgeous child. I wouldn’t swap them for the world. But just because I was not born in Guernsey, it doesn’t mean it hurt me any less or that I still don’t consider Guernsey my home! It can be hard too when you see people who don’t love and respect and appreciate the island being allowed to call it home because they were born in Guernsey when they don’t treat it well!
Report abuse
Let me see if I have this right. Over the years, Guernsey-bred islanders travelled away from the island for a period of time and for umpteen reasons. Those reasons may have included anything from needing to gain further education/work experience before returning to the island, to joining the armed services, to the simple human draw of wanting to experience some of the world before settling down. In the meantime, foreigners from nations around the globe – from the British Isles, from Africa, China, Europe, USA, Malaysia, et al – found ways and means of slipping in and settling permanently on Guernsey. Some married local girls and boys. Some produced offspring. Some have been on the island a long time. Others only a shorter time. And now it is being suggested that those islanders who had the cheek to step off the island for a while may not be able to return? Not even if Mum or Dad leaves them a home to return to?
Report abuse
Newuser – I sympathise with your situation and the Housing issue is always an emotive one.
On an objective level, the laws are required in order to control the population and protect the local population from getting priced out of the market (even more than they are already). But as soon as you look at it on a personal level there are difficult stories and heartbreaking tales all over the place.
The unfortunate truth is that even if people come here knowing that they do so on a limited time frame (as licence holders do, as you did when you were 19) they inevitably fall in love with the place and make friends and lay down roots. But for the good of the island, we cannot simply allow everyone who likes it here to stay. It is a tough situation, but I get the impression that you understand that.
I am pleased to hear that you are not bitter and I wholeheartedly agree that the bitterest part of the pill is to see people who do get the right to stay but who don’t actually seem to like the place very much. It is definitely true that we send away some people who would be better for the island than some people who we let in. But that is the nature of objective rules – you cannot legislate for every case.
Report abuse
As a PS to my last post, it is easy to spot sad stories of licence holders having to uproot and return to the UK (or wherever) at the end of their time. For them it is heartbreaking.
But it is harder to spot cases of young people whose family have grown up here for generations, who have no wish to move to a foreign land and try a new life, but they are forced to leave the land of their ancestors, and leave behind their friends and family, simply because they cannot afford decent housing. I would say that their stories are equally heartbreaking but that these people had no choice at the outset. These are people who need protection, but if you make it easier for licence holders to stay, you make it harder for those people.
There are no easy choices.
Report abuse
Dave Jones
On the whole I agree, but it is not whether you (or I) think the States can interfere in the applicable rights but, if it does and if challenged,whether the Courts agree that the way it has intervened was “necessary” to protect the interests you accurately list. In the absence of any data to assess the risk arising from returning islanders, I fail to understand how the States could demonstrate it was necessary to restrict their rights. I note your admission that no data exists.
As to whether other places give a right to return after a period of absence. Your view that there are none other than Guernsey seems surprising. Please see your own document which refers to the rights of those returning to Jersey and IOM who were born there. More generally, I am not aware of the UK resticting the rights of its subjects to return and reside in the UK.I think most UK immigration lawyers would regard that as a somewhat innovative idea.
Accordingly, were Guernsey to adopt such a position, I think it fair to say that it would a bit of an outlier.
Report abuse
Back in the 1970′s the States of Guernsey made a deal with the EU that Guernsey born island residents of French origin with no English heritage would be denied EU Citizenship in exchange for tax haven banking regulations. Is that issue also going to be covered in this new immigration review? If not, why not?
Report abuse
Expat80
Nothing of the kind is being suggested at all, read the document and send in your opinion.
Report abuse
Dave Jones,
Housing advised the people involved that after they had worked under their licence they could not return for 3 years before working again – this was, they said, to ensure there would be no continuity in residency, and thus to avoid a claim through ECHR. So basically, they could do their 7.5 years, but would have to go, and could then come back and work another 5 years.
It seems like a false economy to me to have people who are keen to stay and provide 20 years (per person in the couple) worth of quality work for the States, to spend all that money and time training and developing them, only to let them go. Senseless.
Report abuse
Terry – Thank you for your post. And with regard to your PS, I completely agree with that point. My other half is from Southern Ireland and we have had to leave there because of the job situation following the recession. I have watched countless number of people and families have to abandon their homes and move away. The fact that Ireland is where generations of their families have lived and they don’t want to go is just awful. So I do understand the importance of making sure the true local people are looked after.
I just hope that everything can be sorted out in Guernsey with as little trauma as possible! If possible!!! I will and do still visit Guernsey and my lovely friends there, thankfully my friendships have stayed strong and despie everything, I still consider Guernsey my home!!! :)
Report abuse
Whilst it might technically true that the public are at liberty to read and comment on this 188 page report, not many will. I tried to wade through it but my eyes soon glazed over and I have more patience than many. This topic affects the lives of thousands of Guernsey residents yet better market research would go into developing a new flavour of crisps.
The States always have masses of our money to throw at external consultants, perhaps now would be an appropriate time to consult the people. Now, before they further demoralize people doing key jobs on the island or deter any more wealth creating migrants.
Report abuse
Population control can start wit States HR. Every new appointment seems to be some English 55 year old who undoubtably bring their pensions rights with them, have about 5 years left before they retire taking up our houses.
Consultation? My left cheek. This will end up with CMB (english) BF (Uncle Tom) along with the authors (probably all English)deciding that every vinery site (English HNWI/already rich local) being a housing target.
Stop the waste, reduce the expectations and don’t turn this into a developer and estate agents charter to screw what’s left of a once beautiful island.
Report abuse
Queenbee
The real problem are the “foreign” workers coming into the island and deliberately targeting local men and women to form relationships with. This is far more widespread than people realise with many younger people being duped into a relationship for their local qualification. Poor saps.
Cite facts/provide a link or shut up!
My “Foriegn” wife, I actually met in the UK, and it was ME who chased HER. Sort of ruins your theory doesn’t it?
So Queenbeeand and Mr G, I am glad to announce that she will be staying here and getting an indefinite licence, and there is nothing that you can do about it :)
ooo maybe ill bring her family here too…..?
Report abuse
There is a lot of scaremongering going on here. These proposals cannot and will not affect the right to return for existing qualified residents. Any new scheme would only affect people’s rights in the future. This sounds draconian; but it is intended to sound so to give the impression that the States is considering this (clearly important issue) seriously. Such a major change of policy would need to be a) thoroughly justifed by good evidence and b) require popular support. I would imagine that a case could be made for a); but I doubt that there will ever be a decent lvele of democratic support for such measures. The States would not have the fortitude to hold a referendum on such a specific proposal as this; so it will be interesting to see if many candidates at the election in 2012 will openly support a radical shake-up of people’s rights to occupy in the local market. More likely, there will be much sitting on the fence as the would-be deputies put this on the “too difficult” pile along with countless other issues…
Report abuse
as a guernsey girl with ancestors dating back to the 1600′s I live in the Uk now so that I can be near my children ( all raised there) who cannot afford to buy a house in guernsey anymore without having a huge mortgage over their heads for the rest of their lives. This is the main problem. Have to say tho reading some of the stuff I read I wonder if I really want to return – its not the same guernsey any more
Report abuse
made a slight mistake on my posting- myu children were raised in guernsey- left to go to university after which they wanted to buy houses–
Report abuse
Sanguine, it is only right that you should stand up for your foreign born wife against what you perceive as prejudice. However, many people want to know the figures for how many relationships exist between guerns and foreigners. We all know there are a great many, but how many? In the majority of these ‘mixed’ relationships there is never a suggestion of the happy couple moving to Bulgaria, Russia, Thailand, Dominica or wherever. Why do you think that is? This is a serious issue, it seriously affects the island’s population growth and in many cases people’s long term happiness. There are certainly cases where financial betterment of the foreign spouse (and often their family) appears to be a major incentive, such relationships do not endure. Naturally, I hope this is not the case for you, Sanguine, time will tell.
Report abuse
Thank you Dave Jones, your reply is much appreciated.
Report abuse
BeanJar – Good points.
But,
We own a house in her native country also and make regular trips over there. I plan on living there for the rest of my life, and when I do, if my licence to live here has to go, then so be it.
She is also better educated than most over here, and speaks English better than an awful lot of locals! Her family is not rich either, she worked for it.
Same for a lot of the Asian workforce over here. In fact most of the Asian workers over here are much more intelligent than many a Guern I have met. (for the record i am local)
BeanJar that is however all speculation what you are saying. There is an obvious reason why someone would chose Guernsey over Russia, then there is the cynical answer, which I am assuming you beleive?
There are many who haven’t done a damn thing for the island, have gone to Uni, done a degree in something the islands doesn’t need (paid for by the island of course) complain the island doesn’t support their career choice and then they stay in the UK without paying a penny in tax to the island that supported them….
BUT expect to return to live whenever they fancy – I think those people are the people who should have their licence removed, not the foreigners here paying tax and generating revenue for the island.
I think that is far more of a problem, does Guernsey need more degrees in Music/Drama/philosophy/Astro Pyhsics? Hence why we get in foreign labour, accountants, company secretaries, trust officers, fund managers, Doctors, Vets, Dentists because the locals wanna do what they wanna do, right?
My Vet, Doctor, Dentist are all “foreign” for example!
The flip side is some locals are too lazy so we have lots of seasonal workers to replace the more lazy elements of our society who think themselves above picking flowers, or packing boxe or working in Checkers. (all of which are necessary)
The problem with Guernsey is the the Guernsey man im sorry to say! You want to study whatever you like, you don’t want to work in what is considered jobs “below your station”, yet you don’t want foreigners!
Report abuse
Every englishman is a foreigner in Guernsey.
Report abuse
@ Beanjar….Using the “mixed” marriages is really going a bit far don’t you think? Be glad they do happen…or do you prefer the Guerns only marrying Guerns scenario?
Report abuse
Manhattan,New York City is 23 sq. miles (roughly same size as guernsey) and has a population of 1.7 Mil.Kind of puts it in perspective does `nt it?
To the person who mentioned the one-child policy,that is completely ridiculous.Why promote taking away our God-given rights?
China has 1.3Bil people,we have just under 62,000.Not really a reason to panic now is it?
Report abuse
If “outsiders” cannot live in local market accommodation, why should Guernsey locals be able to move to the UK and buy UK property? Maybe the UK should take that right away!
Report abuse
Sanguine has made a very good point which has caused me to reconsider. At first sight it seems dead wrong to take away a Guernsey born person’s right to live here under any circumstances. However, Sanguine has made the point that guerns living away from the island for many years creates a vacuum in the labour market which has to be filled by foreigners. He is right, there does need to be some control or influence over this from the States. I take the point regarding professionals being brought in to replace those lost through a ‘brain drain’. I am still of the opinion though that far too many licences are being dished out to unskilled workers. I’m afraid if growers or restaurants can’t operate using local labour it is better that they close than we continue to bring in thousands of lowly skilled economic migrants. Guernsey can’t live without doctors, we can live without so many bar workers and waiters.
Report abuse
isit?
I thought anyone who couldn’t trace their pure local ancestry back 500 years to their great, great, great, great……grandmother was counted as a foreigner.
You may laugh at the stupidity of that suggestion but judging by some of the posts on here you’d think so!
Report abuse
That is an excellent post, Sanguine and raises some issues that I’ve been pondering since this story broke.
Perhaps it is time to look at how we define “citizenship” on Guernsey?
Is it really just a matter of “birthright” or should we be taking a leaf out of John F Kennedy’s book and asking “Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country”?
Given the competition for space and generally favourable living conditions, should citizenship be a defined in a broader sense than simply where you were born or who your parents are?
Perhaps we should be taking a broader perspective on citizenship? If we become too insular, demanding our “rights” without taking into account our responsibilities, we risk becoming an island of social parasites – sucking our country dry whilst giving nothing back in return.
I must confess this is a “work in progress” and I haven’t yet made up my mind on this yet, but I’d be interested to know what others think.
Report abuse
Aimee
Your comment is ridiculous. Guernsey obviously has a limited amount of space whereas there is plenty of room in the UK!
Report abuse
I disagree. The UK population is rising considerably, and green field sites are having to be developed to keep up with the housing demand. This is particularly so in the South, where there is higher employment.
I agree with the point of “ask not what your country can do for you”. I work for one of the dreaded banks (no heckling please) and we lend to people that have spent 20-30 years in the UK, before returning here in their mid-40′s and early 50′s. With them they bring their children (often over the age of 18) whose only links to the island is the fact that a parent was born here and that they may have a granny here. Should they be allowed to buy a local market proeprty?
Report abuse
I think Paul Le Page has raised intelligently some of the thorny issues that face the Population group and subsequently the States. There is no birthright in Guernsey in terms of acquiring automatic residency by being born here. If there was, then it would have to apply to everybody, including the children of those born to very short term licences holders, people on holiday, in fact even people arranging to have their child born on the island in order to claim that right of permanent residency.
Paul’s call for the discussion to broaden in order to cover what criteria defines the right of permanent residency and the automatic right to return is exactly the kind of input we require from the public before any final proposals are formulated. So I urge all of you with an opinion on this matter to get those views down and e-mail them in or send a hard copy to the PPG group at Frossard House.
Report abuse
actually, apart from the hurtful characterisation of locals, Sanguine’s idea is nonsense
no sensible state stops its natives from living in it – not even jersey. it is precisely that which enables Sanguine’s wife to return to the country of her birth and take sanguine with her
the consequence of his argument is that he shouldn’t be able to go.
while away they don’t consume the islands resources and when they return they pay tax. if the tax they pay doesn’t cover the resources they consume, that is a tax issue. if they can’t return, the island won’t be able to recover any investment made in them.
and who paid for that investment in the first place? their parents via their taxes!
Report abuse
Aimee
the existing law doesn’t allow those children to buy and then live in a local market property until at the earliest they have been resident in guernsey for 10 years or get a licence to perform an essential job (like any other foreigner) – so your problem, isn’t a problem. You should take a look at the consultation paper.
Report abuse
dave jones – does anyone else on here not think its a bit rich for a (welsh(?))housing minister to questions local rights to return when he can always return to where he was born?
Report abuse
Juliet
First of all I am not Welsh, I was born in London to parents I never knew but they most certainly weren’t Welsh, I have lived in Guernsey all my adult life. Secondly I am not questioning anyone’s right to return, this is a discussion document read it and discuss Finally it was not my choice to live here in Guernsey, my wife to whom I have been married for 33 years is from an old Norman family and would not be persuaded to live anywhere other than her island home.
Report abuse
Juliet – impressive! It took 118 comments before someone raised that old chestnut.
In short, no. Partly because he is an elected Deputy, no matter where he originally comes from. And secondly because this is not Dave Jones with a personal agenda, but a consultation on behalf of the States as a whole.
Report abuse
Juliet
I dont think it appropriate to change the right to return. It is however acceptable to question it in order to realise it is appropriate and should remain!
I dont think DJ in less entitle to his view simply because he does not originate from here.
Report abuse
Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.
1) There seems to be no point in having the open market. If people are needed here, they can get a licence, just like anyone else – that includes extremely wealthy people – if they can show they will benefit the island, then they can get a licence. There is no point in letting them in otherwise, my experience of the very wealthy is that they do anything they can to minimise their taxes wherever they are, Guernsey included.
2) Stop giving out licences for more than 4 years. It is ridiculous that people agree to come over here for a limited amount of time, and then almost universally try to get around it to get more time. I keep seeing couples where one person gets a licence, and then when that comes to an end, the other half gets another licence, so they can end of staying for past 7 years, hence getting a potential HR claim.
3)Do more to encourage employers to hire from within the island. It seems that employers often make only half-hearted attempts to employ from within the island, doing only the bare minimum to show they have tried so that they can make a case to bring someone in from elsewhere.
4)Postpone a decision on whether to limit the right to return of qualified residents until the above measures are put in place and it can be seen whether they are sufficient to minimise overpopulation.
It sounds trite, but it is essential to protect “Guernsey for the Guerns”. Otherwise you risk creating an island with no cultural identity or heritage, whose population is merely transient for the benefit of what – the funds and trusts industry?
Report abuse
By the way, I am not a “Guern”, I just think my comments above are logical.
Report abuse
To Juliet – exactly. Dave Jones and many of the past and present states members are of UK heritage and benifit greatly by living in the islands. But a number of us poor working class locals lost EU Citizenship rights so that the international banking corporations could take over the island and create this mess in the first place. The local islanders got sold out many years ago and now we have very little rights or control. The States have never been fully transparent when it come to why the locals lost EU status. These days many people are working on the island from EU countries, but many islanders have no legal rights to live in other EU countires other then England. Why is that Mr Jones, Falla et. al!
Report abuse
Dave Jones
Wasn’t your choice to live here? Are you and your wife joined at the hip or something?
Report abuse
Tim Chauvel
Simply, the answer to your point is that in 1971 we were asked by HMG whether we wanted to become a member of the EEC now the EU. On the 15th of December 1971 a Billet was brought to the States by the Advisory & Finance committee to discuss the whole matter, we very sensibly declined Mr. Geoffrey Rippon’s offer. We did however agree to sign up to something called protocol 3 which was considered at the time to be in the islands best interests. Article 1 of protocol 3 gives all those in the EU free movement of travel through these islands (The common travel area) Article 2 gives us free movement of horticultural and agricultural goods through the EU, this was agreed because we exported lots of tomatoes to a member state (the UK) fish to France and for Jersey potatoes to the same member states. The last protocol that affects us is the clear application of the European convention on human rights.
The reason that local people with a long line of lineage do not have the same rights as those who have parents or relatives from a member state is because Guernsey is not a member of the EU. It has nothing to do with the banks or any deals done as you infer. The article that covers this is article 6 which says the following. “In this protocol Channel Islander or Manxman shall mean any citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies who holds that citizenship by virtue of the fact that he, a parent or grandparent, was born, adopted, naturalised, or registered in the island in question; but such a person shall not for this purpose be regarded as a Channel Islander or Manxman if he, a parent or grand parent was born, adopted or naturalised or registered in the United Kingdom. Nor shall he be so regarded if he has at anytime been resident in the United Kingdom for five years” end of quote.
I hope this helps.
Report abuse
Phil
My wife and I are joined in marriage and have been for many years I agreed to live where she wanted to live, as a Guernsey girl who has several generations of her family living here it seemed like a no brainier.
Report abuse
Georgia – just because others don’t do it doesn’t mean it is right.
And actually my wifes parents are third world country poor, she worked very very hard. She got a loan from her government to study and move to live in the uk.
She is now paying this back, the government of her country hands out no freebies.
So im sorry, but you are flawed, the state could easily recoup its loses by putting all the students in this basket.
Again, you are wrong, her country makes her renew her passport often, and she will lose rights she has the longer she is away. Please remember Georgis, the world is vast and bigger than Guernsey and its half wit policies!
Beanjar – I appreciate your honesty, Paul, you are right. Citizenship and responsibility are important in a global world. People are sick and suffering all over, and we discuss keeping people out. This isnt about the Guernsey man, it should be about humanity, its a shame a lot of people who beleive they are good, have none…
Report abuse
I should also mention, her country isn’t in a population crisis, but is suffering a brain drain much like Guernsey, so they are actually supporting people who return to work in that country.
Report abuse
To Sanguine
My point is that, if your wife wasn’t allowed to go home you wouldn’t be allowed to go with her – but that is precisely what you suggest to apply to non-resident locals here. So, enlighten me, where is the flaw?
Then you have a dig at students born and educated here who have to leave to further their education. So you’d like to be a consultant medic…. great well then that’s a min of 7 years in medical school and 10 plus in practice, if your’re lucky. You want to go home where the rest of your family remain – sorry you’re out of time.
To Dave Jones
You suggest, with great fanfare, that existing rights won’t be touched. Great – so if you aren’t even considering taking rights away why do you ask a question whether they should be taken away. That is completely contradictory. I see Peter Roffey suggests in the press that is exactly what you (or others on your committee) want.
Report abuse
Terry Langlois – couldn’t agree more.
Perhaps if we spent less time with (wrongly) questioning Dave Jones’ ancestry and more time thinking about the island’s population strategy we might get a more positive outcome!
Dave Jones is one man with one vote in the States – this is about the island’s population strategy.
Report abuse
Thank you Mr. Jones for your clarification on the 1971 EU Article 1 of protocol 3 regarding the non EU status of Guernsey born Channel Islanders. So, although back in 1971 the States decided to cut the historical mainland European (mostly French) traditional family ties for many thousands of local born islanders; and although the Population Policy Group states in the January 2011 population consultation document that legally qualified residents under the existing Housing (Control of Occupation) (Guernsey) Laws 1992 to 1990 will not be affected by future decisions; I and others consider that you are being inconsistent to say, on the one hand, we won’t touch your existing rights retrospectively and then, on the other, pose as a question in the consultation survey requesting feedback about those islanders who have left and if they have any rights of return. So what is it Mr. Jones? Do we have right of return even thought the States historically stripped us of our traditional European birth right, or are you now waiting for future public comment so that the States (made up of many English born residents like yourself) can then develop laws to permanently bar locals living overseas from ever returning to live on the island of their birth.
Report abuse
Dave J, may I just ask if an imported ‘essential’ worker (cowboy builder) can make a claim for his whole family to stay here permanently, based on the fact that his offspring accidentally fathered a child with a local girl?
Report abuse
Georgia
What I said was that anyone who is currently locally qualified will remain so under any new law. In other words for all local people and those who have become locally qualified that position will not change including the right to return. There will be no retrospective legislation, that is a fact.
As for Peter Roffey, well not for the first time he is all over the place, in his second paragraph on this issue he says “In fact, a majority actually favored this draconian action, although they seemed to lack sufficient conviction to put it forward as a firm proposal.”
In his last paragraph he says “It’s good that the Population Policy Group has backed away from making a firm proposal to exile islanders who spend a period of time away from Guernsey” So in one sentence the group is scolded for not making any firm proposals and in his final sentence it is good that we did not make any firm proposals.
Even if the group did not always agree on every suggestion that was put forward and I would be surprised if they had, what the group thinks is not important, it is what the community thinks that counts and finally what 47 members of the States thinks that will formulate what any new law looks like. I am afraid I am with Advocate Perrot when it comes to Mr Roffey.
Terry L & Paul L P
I thank you for your assistance and to those who remind me of my ancestry, I do accept absolutely that I am a foreigner in your land and I also accept that it does grate with Guernsey people when it appears that they are being governed by people from somewhere else. In my case I waited a respectable period (30years) before I thought I knew enough about the island to stand for election, the people at that point could have said no thanks but they didn’t. I would just like to say this, I want what the Guernsey people want and I have spent all of my short political career fighting to protect this islands history, it’s culture, its way of life, in any way I can and as long as the people want me I will continue to do so, my vote in any debate on population will reflect that point.
Tim Chauval
You protest that a States back in 1971 stripped you of your “European birthright” whatever that is. As far as I am concerned The States were asked if they wanted to become full members of the EEC now the EU, the States declined the offer, any restriction on Guernsey people in the EU is because of that decision. Guernsey is not in the European Union so therefore it does not have the same rights as people who live in countries or originate from countries that are members States of that Union. That does affect some Guernsey people I accept that but it also reflects Guernsey’s unique autonomous position in the world something even you I suspect would want to preserve. The only way to change the situation would be to either join the EU which would be a disaster for us and our economy or ask to be treated differently from all other countries outside the EU. The consultation document is asking for opinions on what any future law might look like, as I keep repeating anyone who is already locally qualified will remain so.
Report abuse
Scarlett
That depends on so many factors, on the age of the father of the child, what kind of application the family might make. Many things will determine who in this group is eligible and who is not. I cannot get involved in individual cases. These are questions that are better directed at the Housing Control staff at Housing.
Report abuse
Dave Jones
You have invited the population to rely on an assurance in the document that existing rights will not be touched. That assurance refers (at paragraph 4.4)to “these proposals” not affecting your rights. In other words, through your lawyers no doubt, you have attempted to leave open your ability to modify them slightly, remove those rights but still say “look I am a man of my word, the proposals are different”.
People (including Deputy Mr Roffey seemingly)are rightly sceptical of your motives given that a worthless assurance is given and immediately followed by a question as to whether rights should be removed.
It seems Mr Chauval has more reason than most to be sceptical. He has seemingly be legged over once already by the States on issues like this, for as you admit, political expediency. He now notes the committee is acting inconsistently – well I agree it is.
The fact is that you have not answered Mr Roffey’s central charge which is, I summarise, that you or the committee are in favour of removing those rights but didn’t have the nerve to say so.
On the other hand what you have done is indulged in scaremongering that the island may be engulfed by a flood of returnees at some point. You offer no evidence for this because there is none. In particular, there is no evidence that returning islanders impose a significant burden on the island now or that the number of them returning will significantly increase. By your own admission there is no data. Accordingly, scaremongering of this kind should never have been undertaken by a public body – which has a duty to act responsibly. Earlier in this stream you also defended implementing such a law even in the absence of any evidence.
The other thing you have done is misled the public. You have said, effectively, that no state other than Guernsey affords its natives unlimited rights of return. Presumably, with a view to suggesting that Guernsey is being overly generous in allowing a right of return and should remove it. That is so misleading as to be laughable (as your own document makes clear in relation to Jersey or the IOM – the other two Crown Dependencies and therefore close parallels with this island). Indeed, I struggle to find any evidence of any developed state that does not.
However, this is not a laugh – because you wish to indulge in a debate about the removal of a fundamental right. To return to one’s home. In such circumstances, you as peoples’s representative, as housing minister and as a member of the population committee, with a disproportionate influence on the outcome of the consultation, have a duty to make sure that what you say is fair, accurate and not misleading.
Report abuse
Tim Chauval – If you doubt Dave Jones’ statement that existing rights to return will not be affected, have a look at the way in which the current Housing Law has developed. Every time the rules have been changed, they have not had retrospective effect, meaning that different rules apply to different people depending upon when they were born. I am absolutely certain that any changes will be on the same basis, so that your right to return will not be touched. You are worrying about something that is not an issue.
Report abuse
I have set up a Facebook group page called Guerns Right of Return (GRR, please get the word out to all Guernsey people living overseas that they need to make comment on the States Consultation Document. I am also going to formally request that the States extend the comment period, I do not consider the Mr Jones and his team have adequately advertised the consultation process to islanders that live overseas i.e. Guerns living in the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.
Also, Mr Jones, when the States orignally made the decision to exclude Guernsey from the EU back in the 1970′s, were the people of Guernsey consulted, or was that a unilateral decison made by the States? Many like I, have been denied access to our French heritage and religated to a footnote in history. The islands may not have been permanetly invaded by the Germans, by they have been taken over by the English! I have become a second class citizen within Europe inorder that wealthy corporations and outsiders can make a lot of money.
Report abuse
Julian Gamble
The existing rights of Guernsey people WILL NOT change under any new law. So any Guernsey born person who lived in Guernsey for ten years before leaving has the right to return to live in open market property on proof of their ten year residence. What is up for discussion is what will happen in the future for those who don’t have those existing rights, in my view a perfectly reasonable position. Mr. Roffey’s opinion is a matter for him, I make no further comment on his supposition except to say that the committee was NOT in favor of removing Guernsey peoples existing rights. Pointing out that there are a considerable number of Guernsey people who already have the right to return is not scaremongering, it is a fact and one that cannot be ignored when any community is planning for the future.There will be many people who do not qualify under the present law who left Guernsey for many years and would like to return, the question is should they be allowed to under any new law. On the question of other jurisdictions the point I am trying to make is that they all have some form of control or other. I don’t think I have misled anyone the document says what it says.
Report abuse
Tim Cheuval
The decision was taken by the democratically elected States at the time. I fail to see how you are a second class citizen in Europe, or how you have lost your French heritage, your heritage is yours forever and no political agreements can take it from you, you are what you are. On the one hand you say the island has been taken over by the English and then complain you don’t have the same rights as the English because your home county is not a member of the European Union which the UK is. So it is obvious that the citizens of a member state (the UK) are going to have more rights under EU law than those from countries outside the EU, it has absolutely nothing to do with wealth corporations
Report abuse
Actually, many Englishmen and other Britons will have just as much Norman ancestry as Guernsey people.
Tim Chauvel: if your family came from Brittany your ancestors were celts who originated from parts of Britain like Cornwall and Wales and emigrated to Brittany. In which case many Englishmen who have “taken over” Guernsey may have more Norman ancestry in common with Guernseymen than you!
Anyway, Guernsey’s Norman – i.e. Scandinavian – heritage is relatively new when you consider that the Norman invasion took place a thousand years ago or so and the island has been inhabited by various peoples incuding the Spanish since several thousands of years ago BC.
Report abuse
Julian Gamble
That should read Local Market Property NOT open market properties.
Report abuse
Dave Jones
January 30, 2011 at 9:15 am
***
The existing rights of Guernsey people WILL NOT change under any new law. So any Guernsey born person who lived in Guernsey for ten years before leaving has the right to return to live in open market property on proof of their ten year residence.
***
Shouldn’t the above read “has the right to return to live in LOCAL market property”?
Doesn’t anybody (British at least) have the right to live in open market property?
If your statement is correct, what are the requirements for someone born in Guernsey, who also spent the first 25 years of their life in Guernsey – to return and have the right to occupy local market property? Conversely, if this person left, after how many years are they no longer qualified to live in local market property?
Report abuse
Note to self, refresh browser before posting :O)
Dave
Sorry to labour the point, but your statement:
***
So any Guernsey born person who lived in Guernsey for ten years before leaving
***
Under current law, effectively means being qualified to occupy local market property, after any length of absence, correct?
Report abuse
Dave Jones
Understood. Thank you for the clarification.
Report abuse
Reply to St Marcouf
My comments were both tongue-in-cheek and a reality check when I commented that Guernsey had been taken over by the English. But your comments were interesting in that I agree with you in regard to the common historical ancestry between ancient European and British tribes. However, why is it then that in 1971 when the States of Guernsey decided not to join the EU, a small percentage of the island population with French ancestral heritage were exploited and denied EU rights, but residents of British ancestry have full EU rights? And why is it that if a person of English ancestry becomes a full permanent resident of Guernsey through marriage, birth or otherwise do not have to give up their EU rights? I consider that I and many other Guernsey Islanders in my position have been denied their historic French birthright so that that many “naturalized” Guernsey residents of English decent or otherwise can enjoy the charm and prosperity of island life. But what did I get in return sir? Very little – overpopulation, almost complete destruction of Guernsey customs and heritage, 40,000 vehicles, an island government predominantly run by outsiders, a waterfront that looks like the banking sector of Zurich, and “NO” reparation for the loss of my cultural heritage. And what did you loose Mr. St Marcouf – probably nothing…
Report abuse
Stuie G
Yes I corrected it a couple of posts ago, It should have read LOCAL market
As for OM, anybody can live in OM of any nationality.
Report abuse
Guerns Right of Return (GRR) consultation comments is now located at:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=170&uid=159420694107405
Report abuse
Stuie G
1.51 pm
Exactly the same as those who spent the first ten years of their life in Guernsey, those who qualify under this section of the law are free to come and go for any length of period they choose.
Report abuse
Tim Chauvel – stop banging on about the States removing your French birthright. They did nothing of the sort. The French decided to limit free movement of people into France from outside the EU and chose not to include Guernsey. The UK allow free movement of people into the UK from Guernsey and the EU. Take your complaint to Paris.
Not joining the EU was one of the best decisions the States has ever made. Are you really saying that the island should now be in the EU just so that a handful of people could have a legal right to live and work in a place that their ancestors came from? You won’t get much local support for that idea.
Report abuse
Terry Langlois
Of course Terry the other big downside of being a full member of the EU and there are many, would be that nearly 700million people within the Union would have the automatic right of residency in Guernsey. All citizens from any member state have a right to live anywhere they choose within the EU as there are no effective borders within the EU
Report abuse
Stuie G / Dave Jones
Qualification after 10 years of residence following a local birth does not apply to everyone – anyone being born since 1 July 1994 would only qualify in this way if one or both of their parents were qualified and were resident at the time. If born before 1 July 1994 you can qualify in this way even if your parents were not qualified, but at least one of them needed to be resident at the time of your birth.
The rules are clear but usually depend on a combination of factors. Asking Dave Jones to state the rule for a scenario like that is a bit unfair as he would have to recite all of the factors in order to answer fully. It is worth everyone having a read of the list of categories – they are quite clear when read together but can be confusing when discussing different scenarios in isolation. Dave probably has better things to do with his time ;-)
Report abuse
Tim Chauvel: I actually agree with your sentiments in the latter part of your post.
David Jones: If you are saying that anyone who spends the first ten years of their life in Guernsey qualifies under the law and is free to come and go, I don’t think that is right.
Under section 10(2)(c) of the law, a person who who was born in Guernsey before the commencement of the law and who since his birth has been continuously ordinarily resident in Guernsey is a qualified resident. However, as soon as he leaves, whether that be after 10 years or any other length of time, he loses his qualified status and so is not free to return.
Also, I don’t think anybody of any nationality can live on the open market – British citizens and EEA nationals can, but all other nationalities have to have leave to enter the Bailiwick of Guernsey first, which they may not necessarily obtain depending on their reasons for wanting to enter.
Report abuse
St Marcouf
I have said somwhere else that it is if you qualify I can’t make it any clearer, which means you have to have had Guernsey parents and been born on the island and stayed for ten years befor moving on.
Report abuse
Dave Jones
Is that one Guernsey parent or both Guernsey parents? Not sure if its relevant but for UK nationality purposes I understand that one goes back two generations to grandparents, not just to parents, in order to determine nationality.
St Marcouf,
All EU (and I believe EEA) citizens can freely buy or rent open market property here. Obviously that includes British citizens. Those from outside the EU/EEA, i.e. South Africans or Australians, need to satisfy the UK’s own immigration requirements first, seeing as we are part of the UK for Immigration & Nationality Act purposes, and they would need a work permit (in line with a UK work permit, not just a Guernsey right to work permit) before they could work here.
Report abuse
Apologies for the shameless plug… and thanks to the moderators for allowing this message through:
This Sunday on BBC Guernsey I’m hosting a special edition of the Sunday Phone In looking at the population management consultation.
The chairman of the Population Policy Group Deputy Bernard Flouquet, fellow PPG member Deputy Dave Jones, and the lead civil servant will be in the studio from 10am to 12noon to answer any questions you may have about any aspect of what’s been put out to consultation.
You may never normally tune in to the BBC Guernsey Sunday Phone In, but if you or anybody you know as a passing or active interest in the consultation and perhaps wants to know more, you may (I hope) find the programme useful and interesting.
Tune in on 93.2FM or bbc.co.uk/guernsey and join the programme by calling 200373 between 10am and 12noon this Sunday 6 February.
Shameless plug over. Thank you.
Report abuse
Terry Langlois
Point taken. No, I don’t expect that Guernsey will join the EU. But I do think people should be educated in knowing that as stated in your own words “a handful of [Guernsey born] people… [don't] have a legal right to live and work in a place [France] that their ancestors came from.” I’m sure that simple fact is not taught in 101 Guernsey Imigration Policy at local schools.
And yes, I may forward that fact to the newly assigned EU Minister for what it is worth.
Report abuse
David
It need only be one Guernsey born parent.
Report abuse
Mr Jones
You say the PPG has not engaged in “scaremongering” in relation to rights of return; merely pointing out that there are an undetermined number of islanders with those rights. I accept that you may not have done so intentionaly, but I think that you did or something pretty similar.
True, there is a risk they may return in numbers. But there is absolutely no evidence in your document that those that do have imposed a burden on the island in the past, do now or will in the future and, in any event, it is highly probable that they will be counterbalanced by islanders leaving. Anecdontally, I think it highly unlikely that those that can afford to buy property at these inflated price levels upon returning are short of resources and will impose a burden on the state.
In fact, having stated the risk, the PPG simply washed its hands in the document of any attempt to analyse it to enable islanders to form a view of whether that risk justified taking away a fundamental right (to return to one’s home) – that is some cost! In effect, simply stating it was too difficult.
But given such a draconian step and the potential resulting hardship and heartbreak for those affected, that is precisely what it should have done. That is because, if you ask someone whether they can simply avoid a risk at no cost to themselves, they will naturally do so. Is that not “scaremongering” or something pretty close, even if unintentional?
The point about a consultation is to let people decide on the questions put to them on the basis of full, fair and balanced information. But you have given them PRECISELY NO INFORMATION.
Your document is replete with a legal analysis as to whether rights of return can be removed, yet contains nothing about whether they should be. On this point, that is entirely the wrong focus.
WELL HERE ARE SOME FACTS (JUSTIFIED BY EVIDENCE)NOT EXPRESSLY BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE PUBLIC IN THE WAY THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
The 14 year residential requirement you seek to impose is more demanding than Jersey (10 years), IOM (0 years for those born there) and nearly all developed countries such as the UK, US and France (ie all 0 years). All of these jurisdictions do not think it necessary to remove residential status if their locals live outside the jurisdiction (whatever the period) – crikey not even Turks & Caicos according to your document. All of these states have ‘citizens’ abroad. What is different about Guernsey? The answer is nothing. If it does this, Guernsey will probably be unique, but not in a way it can be proud of.
I am sorry you do not hold Deputy Roffey’s opinions in high regard. As I accept you feel you are acting in the island’s best interests, so I must think that of him. In fact he makes another very good point. That is for those born and educated on the island, Guernsey will always be their spiritual home. Certainly this is what I feel.
For these reasons and to protect the younger members of my family (whether resident in Guernsey now or not), we cannot merely acquiesce in letting the PPG be complicit in depriving a right of return to this generation or future generations (whether they have existing rights now or will only accrue them in the future).
Report abuse
Julian Gamble
Julian you really are getting upset over your own suppositions, not ours. First of all telling the population that there are significant numbers of Guernsey people who have the right to return is part of the discussion process. In any event it is not a secret. Nowhere have we suggested what effect they may or may not have on the island other than the obvious one of increasing the population but none the less, it is part of the discussion as I have said. You of course are free to put on it what ever label you like “scaremongering” is your opinion not ours. Although I am at a loss to know how you scare people with a fact that most of the population are already aware of.
On your second point, there will be many Guernsey people who will come back to live in existing family homes and so not everyone who returns will want to buy a house, some for instance may be eligible for social need housing, as always it will depend on the individual circumstances and of course their will be some who will have the funds to purchase a house or obtain a mortgage to do so. Nowhere has anyone suggested that these returnees will be a “burden on the state” again this is your supposition, not ours.
You say the PPG has washed its hands of the subject, again not true, under the existing law those who are locally qualified are free to return, that is the law and that will NOT change under any new law, so I am not sure what other information you want on that matter it is a question of fact, that’s it.
And for the umpteenth time nobody is removing the rights of anybody to return who is eligible to do so, I am at a loss quite frankly to know which bit of that you don’t understand? I would also ask Which bit of that fact is “draconian?” As many of the countries that Guernsey people have chosen to move to, struggle for jobs and incomes drop, many will look to return to their island home for well paid jobs and some security, I am aware that many have already done so.
As for not giving the public any information I find that odd, the document is littered with possible scenarios and a set of questions that people can choose to answer, or not. We are asking the public what kind of island in terms of population they want to see in the future. We are asking the public to tell us what THEY think on issues like the right to return, it would seem that you are disappointed that we haven’t laid out our own personal views on the matter, which is not what this consultation process is about. We hope that we will get firm opinions, some suggestions and reasoned argument.
Nobody is trying to impose a 14 year residency, the numbers in the document are there for discussion, the rest of that section of your post, once again shows that you are assuming far too much.
Finally I say, that Mr. Roffey is entitled to his opinion but it is only one of many and writing it in the press doesn’t give his opinion any more weight that anyone else’s. Also, it is NOT the PPG who will make the decisions on the future population of Guernsey that will be a matter for the states as a whole. Now while I am happy to engage in debate on this important subject, I will not respond further to you Julian if we keep going over old ground.
Report abuse