Disability discrimination to be tackled by Chamber
Tuesday 8th February 2011, 1:00PM GMT.
A CODE of practice to combat disability discrimination in the workplace could be introduced to avoid more employment legislation, the Chamber of Commerce president has said.
Julian Winser (pictured)) said the group would be discussing the possibility of such a move at its next council meeting on 21 February.
Recently, Commerce and Employment launched a consultation into employment legislation and safeguards to see whether more protection was needed.
But the Schroders chief executive said adding more laws was not necessary. ‘I think the general consensus of business is that we would prefer not to see more legislation – legislation comes at a cost to the business,’ he said.
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This is a very delicate subject especially in this crazy world of political correctness so I don’t expect many comments on this topic
I have never been an employer but I imagine that if I had been I would have always looked for the best candidate for the job …. the best being the one who would be the most likely to enhance my business bottom line at the end of each tax year
If I was in say the furniture removal business and my three applicants for one post as driver’s mate were
a)A fit young man just out of prison for dishonesty at his last place of employment
b)A married man with a family to support whose last job was lost due to lack of suitable light industry premises
c)A personable thirty something man eager and willing to work and learn the business but who had an unfortunate history of having to take several weeks off each year due to ill health
I would be quite annoyed if some well meaning legislation was introduced which gave the opening to candidate(c)to take me to a civil court for discriminating against him in favour of candidate(b)
There are ten main departments within the States.How about a code of practice whereby each department was obliged to offer meaningful employment to one or two of those who might be in danger of being discriminated against in the above circumstances?
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This is a difficult issue for employers. But the plain fact of the matter is that while there might be a cost to businesses of more legislation, there is a cost to the community i.e. all of us in Guernsey in not having legislation. The cost is that individuals who may well fit into employment are sidelined, not given employment opportunities, are kept on benefits and are carried by the community potentially in favour of off-island imports. Nothing short of legislation will change that.
Employers as represented by Chamber also appear to be taking a short sited view. From personal experience having employed many people with disabilities in Guernsey and the UK they are among the most dedicated, customer focused individuals you can hope to find. In short with minor adjustments and some flexibility they were the best people for the job.
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As I am not afraid to print my full name, guess that means it will be best to write what I mean really too. The first response is all too easy Ray and that would be thank whomever you are not an employer in the Bailiwick.
Even people who have been to prison deserve a second chance – constant recidivists perhaps need more thought and the person (c) who has been off due to long term impairment issues – are you suggesting that they would not have a family to support? Further are you suggesting that all Disabled People are not ‘personable’?
Without getting too personal against you Ray, there are so many ignorant people and I mean that only in an uneducated way in relation to Rights of inclusion. That is why the Disability Discrimination Act is now over 15 years on the British Statutes and ever evolving.
Disabled People are by and large far less likely to throw a sickie/duvet day, are generally much more reliable than many non-disabled counterparts and so glad to be employed in the first instance that they will do all the can to impress their employer that they made the right decision by employing them. This would be on the understanding that the Disabled Person’s minimum access requirements were met as part of the working contract. A simple example would be larger print for someone with slight visual impairment who is required to read as part of their duties. Someone who may have had their colon removed is afforded time during the day to care for their stoma in privacy and dignity.
Being Disabled is not caused by the Impairment (impairment is that part of the body which does not function as well as it might), A person with reduced mobility is Disabled by Society still creating buildings with stepped access, Society Discriminates against Blind and Visually Impaired People by creating ‘level access crossings’ which are 2-4 inches above the road surface. The list in not exhaustive.
What you have written Ray, is exactly why a code of practice for the most part will simply not work as it is not enforceable. Just read what Mr. Winser has written in today’s press on the same subject.
What if ‘people’ were writing in the same vein about a Black or Asian Person or indeed a Gay person. Half the Bailiwick would be up in arms. Why oh why is it every time a Disabled Person asks to be treated fairly and given fair measure do people like you Ray suggest we should not be considered and that any consideration might be borne out of ‘Political Correctness’ as opposed to the Civil Right to be included and not Tolerated within Society. I want to be included within Society not tolerated, I want to be accepted and celebrated for any difference I have. Disabled People have a valuable contribution to make within Society. Currently, there are nearly 1500 people out of work who ‘might’ be able to hold down some form of employment (if as suggested their minimum access requirements are met) and not the figures promulgated by Social Security.
What does this equate to?
The more Disabled People in work the more taxes are being paid. The more taxes being paid the healthier the economy. A healthy economy is one that invests in its citizens and in turn its citizens respond by stronger work ethic.
I look forward to further discussion – Aindre
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Thank you Business Bod you said succinctly what I took two A4 pages to mean – Well done and thanks for your support
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aindre
Good reply especially your last paragraph
Perhaps somewhat spoilt by your over the top mind reading abilities in querying what I am suggesting,but please don’t shoot the messenger
I expect that this topic will be very one sided because of its very delicate nature and the likely vitriol anyone who puts his head above the parapet will receive
If I had said candidate c),because of his particular disability,would find it impossible to move a wardrobe down two flights of stairs,would you still expect me to look beyond that problem?
As an employer all I would be interested in the furniture removal example would be to employ someone honest enough to trust alone in a client’s house,and someone who could do the heavy lifting the job entails on a regular daily basis.It would not matter to me what colour or sexual persuasion he happened to be
Now if I had been looking for someone to take in the orders,visit the job site to prepare an estimate and type up the invoices then candidate c)would immediately move to the top of the list
If a person with any sort of disability gets turned down for a job which he is perfectly competent and able to do,then I agree with you that it would fall into the category of discrimination.
However I still maintain that the example I have given above should not fall foul of any code of practice or future legislation
Any thoughts on the idea of States departments employing disabled people in suitable jobs?
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Ray what you describe is an extreme and in all my years as being an employer I have never been faced with that scenario.
In my opinion employers draw assumptions on candidates disabilities rather than knowing the facts. If the role is physical and the candidate has a physical ailment which prevents them from completing the job then I doubt very much they would have applied for it in the first place. Joe Bloggs who has no legs would more than likely not apply for a drivers job, nor, would he expect to be granted one. However, Joe who is 40 and a trained accountant went for accountants job. The ad asks for a fully trained account and Joe loses out to a candidate who was 10 years his junior and only part qualified.
Before you all start banging on the PC drum just think for a moment. Any one of us could be in an accident at any time which could then make us disabled in some sort of way. Some of our jobs we would simply not be able to do anymore, however there is a vast amount of jobs that we would still be able to do and do very well.
The assumption from employers is that disability is a taboo, that person isn’t normal and not able to do the job. The question is, is there a sufficient amount of employers in Guernsey who think that and is there a high amount of disabled applicants out of work who want to work? If the answer to both these question is yes then there is a need for legislation. If there are no acts of discrimination taking place then there’s no need for the legislation, however, I should imagine there are a fair few employers who think the same way Ray does and therefore draws assumptions rather than basing their opinions on any real evidence.
Employers were sent out surveys a few months ago regarding employment legislation and I had to laugh. Really the wrong people you should be asking. Do you want more employment legislation? Of course no employers want any more employment legislation! The people you need to ask are the job seekers, the candidates who are potentially being discriminated against by the potential employers!
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If legislation stops employers discriminating against people with a disability, then legislation is what we should have in Guernsey. I don’t agree with a ‘softly softly’ approach and leaving it up to employers to decided if they feel they are being discriminatory or not. The truth of the matter is that unless you actually have a disability yourself you don’t realise how hard life and finding employment etc. can be.
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I wholeheartedly agree that nobody should be discriminated against becauce of a disability, however I also see Ray’s point of view concerning employing “the best man for the job”.
It is tough for small businesses to be all things to all employees. Maternity pay / leave, paternity leave, supporting staff who are taking exams etc, the costs of all these policies is considerable. It would cost many thousands of pounds for the company I work for to become “wheelchair accessible”, I suspect therefore that it is highly unlikely we would employ a wheelchair user. That’s not because of discrimination but because of economics.
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I have worked with disabled people and found them to be excellent colleagues. However when dealing with emotive issues like discrimination it’s very easy to get simplistic and raise the clamour for more legislation.
Reasonable debate on this issue is difficult. One of the reasons few people get involved is the fear of being labelled a bigot by militants who often hijack these discussions. These are the people who see discrimination on every corner – grabbing hold of simple oversights and calling them discrimination when they are nothing of the sort. Such people stifle reasonable and open debate.
Such things don’t bother me too much though, so here’s my take on it.
There is a fine line between “discrimination” and the simple reality that some people are better suited to jobs than others. For example, someone who cannot speak English would be useless in a telesales job on Guernsey; a quadriplegic wouldn’t be suitable to work as a labourer; a paranoid schizophrenic probably wouldn’t be a good choice as a bereavement counsellor.
There is also a fine line between the rights of the employer and prospective employee. The problem with discrimination legislation is that it is very difficult to prove, which in my opinion can create a culture of fear where people are afraid of not employing people for fear of being labelled with the dreaded “discriminatory” tag and hauled before the courts.
This in turn can create an environment of “positive discrimination” where someone like (b) in Ray’s example finds himself rejected for a job simply because his prospective employer was afraid of going to a discrimination tribunal.
Although I oppose discrimination against the disabled, I think we need to tread carefully before legislating. If we must have legislation, it needs to be able to differentiate between what is real discrimination and what is a simple matter of “the best man for the job.”
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Lynnie – I read your post after posting my first one so apologies if I’m covering the same ground.
Yes, I agree with you entirely and if legislation will achieve what you say I’m all for it. I do think we need to tread carefully though – not everyone is as reasonable as you are.
Although the example Ray gave (and the examples I gave) are extreme, the unfortunate truth is there are always people who will try to play the system and abuse legislation that is meant to do good.
That is why I maintain my view – if we are to have legislation, it must as far as possible have provision to prevent abuse.
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i have been discriminated at various jobs i have had since my brain injury, no matter what law they bring out, it will happen, i always thought since i went back to work, explain what problems i have and people might understand a bit more,but they make jokes about you, and even mimick your disability, very sad
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I think care needs to be taken to differentiate between “Equal Opportunities” and “Equal Outcomes” – the two are very distinct and can be very different.
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Hi again Folks,
Although being assertive when writing and or speaking publicly about Discrimination, it is ever my intention to berate others. So if I have offended anyone here my apology is genuine and offered without reserve.
In terms of what Ray has responded firstly – The DDA has a specific part called Section 21 part III and this looks directly at ‘Reasonable Adjustment’. In reality that means as in Miss ‘P’s case scenario that she owns two hair Dressing salons in the high street one at the top and one at the bottom. Miss X has recently become a Wheelchair user (for example) and her usual hairdresser works in the upper salon which has four steps up to it. The other salon in the lower end has been completely refurbished recently and has been made ‘level access’ but Miss X’s hairdresser does not work there. Forgive me question which is not meant to sound patronising at all. In terms of Reasonable adjustment a Guernsey Equivalent DDA would not require the salon owner to refurbish also the other shop – so what is the ‘reasonable adjustment?’
I do believe in the best person for the job and positive discrimination whilst a forward thinking concept – should remain that and that alone.
What Disabled People are asking for albeit more assertively today, is a fair shake? Is that unreasonable?
Of course Ray is completely correct insofar as his example of a furniture removals firm looking for removers would have difficulty finding a spot for someone who is Blind and or a Wheelchair User – but that is not to say that this applicant could not do a certain aspects of the job (I accept I have embellished on this). However, a Deaf Person could do that work, as could someone living with a Mental Health Issue with the proviso as per my case studies, their respective ‘Access Requirements’ were met.
I would not be unsupportive the point in relation to anyone swinging the lead. However, again it is all too easy to get rid of someone without (in some cases) firstly looking at the root cause for this poor performance.
As someone who trained to become a professional Access Consultant (and this is a one off) PHIL I am offering you/your company a free visit to give an overview on access and accessibility. Just so you know, I was the senior access consultant for the whole of NetworkRail in the UK and in Guernsey have consulted on Edward T Wheadon House, Hogue A La Pere for Guernsey Housing, Frossard House for States and many others.
One final point on this part of the thread is that unless one consults with Disabled People and in the first instance gives Disabled People a try, one cannot proffer validated opinions. LYNNIE has put that much better I in her last paragraph.
Thank you all for continuing the dialogue of ‘open, adult discussion.’ Aindre
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Paul Le Page
I wish I could hijack your last two posts and call them my own,Lynnie’s too.
My furniture removal example may well have been at the extreme end of the spectrum but legislation tends to be drafted to encompass such extremes thereby cutting common sense out of the equation
Guernsey employers are already being hit by a steady rise in employment tribunals.Thankfully our local panels tend to suss out the vexatious applicants and send them packing.Not so in the UK, where semi-professional complainers make a living out of deliberately engineering a situation from which they are almost certain to make a monetary gain
Copy that legislation in Guernsey and watch the little firms fold as it becomes too much hassle to employ ANYONE let alone the best man for the job
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Aindree – your last post is generally excellent. I totally agree with you that disabled people should get a fair opportunity. Absolutely.
I don’t agree that positive discrimination is “forward thinking” though – I actually think it is a regressive concept as it is just as bad as the discrimination you so vehemently oppose. They are two sides of the same coin.
Why? Because for every instance of positive discrimination there is a negative. For example, if a company deliberately decides to increase their “minority” quota by choosing a disabled employee, they are by definition discriminating against able-bodied people.
My desire is that we live in a society where the person best capable to do the job gets the job. If that means that reasonable accommodations have to be made (like level access) then so be it. I appreciate this is a bit of a utopian vision but it’s good to aim high.
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Paul
I completely agree with your last paragraph. We should accept that a person hired to do the job is the best person for the job (not “man for the job” as in previous posts, but let’s not get onto sex discrimination in this thread!) regardless of whether the candidate is a Disabled Person, or one without any impairment.
A lot of reasonable adjustments can be made to premises without a great deal of cost, but I do also feel very strongly that a lot of the allegedly discriminatory practices could be reduced with a bit of education to employers. They need to know that it’s not only possible to employ a Disabled Person, but beneficial to their organisations if that person is the right one for the job. I for one will be encouraging my own employer to employ a Disabled Person, should the opportunity arise (and not just to be PC but to hire the right person for a job).
However, my job would be made easier (and I suspect it would be the same for others) if we could all get a bit of education from people like Aindre who can show us just how much a Disabled Person can do. I think some of the barriers could be broken down with some positive input from him and other Disabled People.
That’s me off my soap box – have a good evening, all!
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I agree with you all, one of the better forum debates.
I see a real benefit in legislation beyond simply the rule of law. In the UK the introduction of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) forced a change in thinking about disability.
In the first instance it was: how do i avoid this huge cost. But once the emotion had died down and reasonable adjustment was understood and practical advice emerged this fear went away. Over time it became a part of the cost of doing business.
The next stage was a consideration of what disability actually meant and i dont mean the definitions. I wear glasses, is that because i have a disability? It certainly isn’t a problem for me, but a person with partial or full blindness arent they just a bit further along the scale? If i was blind wouldnt i wanted to be treated as well as anyone else?
And then finally having incorporated this thinking in the business was a realisation that the wider community and our customer base contained many many people with disabilities. How could we make money from selling and marketing to them.They were underserviced and a growth opportunity.
I don’t think any of this change in thinking would have come about by a reliance on enlightened managers, it needed the stimulus of legislation. Thats why i am a fan. I stop well short of positive discrimintion though.
I also query the role of C&E in this. They are pushing for us to have Competition legislation with all the paraphernalia of more regulators, investigations into mergers and acquisitions, and monopolies and the like on the basis that the EU requires us to have it. And without it we can’t run our financial services industry. Well how long before the EU require us to have a DDA? We should get on with it. It take us long enough anyway.
As to local panels I have defended a claim which was eventually thrown out, but not before i had consulted advocates, spent time and money worrying about it. Taken time off. The claimant lost nothing. It cost him nothing. It would have been cheaper to pay him off and walk away, but the principle was worth fighting for. It felt really unbalanced. There should be a pre-vetting stage and a requirement for the claimant to put up some cash. I think that is the case in the UK now.
Paul i like your utopian vision but would add “and everyone that is capable of working finds a job that suits them”. Or to quote the words John D Rockerfeller “I believe in the dignity of labor, whether with head or hand; that the world owes no man a living but it owes every man an opportunity to make a living.”
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Many thanks Paul very generous of you.
In my previous post I wrote:
I do believe in the best person for the job and positive discrimination whilst a forward thinking concept – should remain that and that alone.
What I meant by the above is in agreement with what you have added in your most recent post Paul – As in Positive Discrimination does not work in the majority of cases.
So hope I have cleared that point up.
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Business Bod
Good post
Just a shame you had to quote from such a person like J D Rockerfella.
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Hi as a disabled person myself ive been looking for a job to suit my disablity for the past 4 years there is nothing to help me find a job ive been for interviews but never get given a chance it really annoys me that employers have this mentality about disabilty . i want to work all i ask for is a sit down job its only my legs, states of Guernsey wake up
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While not actually disabled I personally am also discriminated against due to the fact that over the past 18 months I have been treated for a potentially fatal illness, known many years ago as “consumption” or these days more commonly known as Tuberculosis. Employers are very wary about taking me onto their workforce despite the fact that I have never been infectious and never will be. Unfortunataley we are told to be honest about things but if I hadnt been honest I would have a job now instead of being still on benefits
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Hi webbo
All sorts of people read these pages, including I would expect States Members just to get a feel of what the mostly anonymous contributors really think on the subject of the moment
Why not list on here the sort of jobs you are capable of doing and you could just catch the eye of one of those readers. Best of luck
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Thanks for that Ray. and Toady i get the same feeling they think we are infectious. At the end of the day we are willing to and want to work.I have worked all my life due to no fault of my own injury ment i had to give up work until now trying to get back is impossible so it seems . I would love a job using my hands i have C&G 383 LEVELS 1,2,3 motor machanices ,trying to find somthing along these lines would be great assembly work sit down is what i enjoy.
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Agree with Business Bod, there’s some really healthy debate on this thread.
Rest assured, this is an issue that the Guernsey Disability Alliance will continue to campaign on, particularly when Commerce and Employment release the results of their consultation on Employment Law in a few months time.
If you’d like to be kept updated on employment and other issues for disabled islanders (like benefits and respite, for example) just send an email to guernseydisability@yahoo.co.uk and we’ll add you to our mailing list.
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Hey Webbo and Toady
I think Ray is spot on – I’m sure not only States members but also plenty of other people who are employers read this website and these threads, and it’s well worth telling people what you are able to do. Your impairment does not prevent you from doing a good job or from being a great employee.
The very best of luck to you both.
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I total agree with the comments of Andre Reece Sherin. Employers wouls rather chose a “normal” person to emplor than a person they might need to make adjustment for. I think until laws are in place than the issue will not be dealt with.It seems that the emplorers are happy as it stands so they do not want to change. Unless someone close to them comes up against this problem they do not even think about it.
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Just some food for thought.
I’m all for equal oppurtunities, but unfortunatley, lawyers, as with most things in life, have a massive effect on any application of potential legislation such as this.
Back in the UK I remember a situation where a lady with MS contacted a lawyer BEFORE applying for a particular internal position. The lawyer wrote a strongly worded letter basically saying if she didnt get the job, prepare for reprisals.
Despite being the least qualified of the 75 internal applicants, 1 interview (there were supposed to be 3 to whittle the group down) and she had the job.
Equal oppurtunities for sex, disability, race etc, HAS to be applied in a modern society, but unfortunately, as with most things, we must be careful that its not the lawyers who benefit most, and that the rules are applied in a fair and transparent manner so that there is NO discimination EITHER way.
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did you see the come fly with me last episode with the increasing chain of wheelchair workers and support workers? i oppose fascism and i thought that joke was superb.
on one hand, a parent of a disabled child is bullied to suicide and takes the life of her child. on the other, the intransigence of the ‘missed the point’ leaders of the disabled revolution creeps.
everyone is best served somewhere inbetween? all are worthy, the disabled not more worthy.
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