Ormers court case ‘a waste of money’
Friday 18th February 2011, 1:00PM GMT.
PROSECUTING two islanders for taking ormers just under the size limit was a waste of taxpayers’ money, according to Seafresh director Andy Le Prevost.
Robert Falla, 53, and John Domaille, 74, were both fined £150 in the Magistrate’s Court last week for collecting undersized ormers earlier this year off Lihou Island.
The pair both said it was an innocent mistake, with Mr Falla saying he had forgotten his measurer and Mr Domaille saying the ormers looked larger in the water. They both placed them back in the sea.
Mr Le Prevost (pictured) believed the case should have ended there, rather than spending money prosecuting them.
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When is a limit not a limit?
When there is sympathy for the defendants
‘I left my measure at home’ and ‘they looked big enough underwater’ are quite frankly very poor excuses from mature ormer gatherers
Furthermore, we do not know if the perpetrators had already had a friendly warning or two, from those checking the catches, and still chose to take a risk
Sorry chaps, no sympathy from me
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I totally agree, the law should only apply if you can be bothered to stick to it.
Of course, commercial fishermen have a long history of respecting to contents of our waters don’t they, they don’t view the creatures that dwell within as theirs to exploit for as much money as they can regardless of the affect they have on the species.
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What a surprise – a fisherman complaining when Sea Fisheries come even a little close to upholding the laws covering ormering.
If the dept dismissed the offences with a ‘slap of the wrist’ as Mr Le Prevost recommended, then dozens of shore-gatherers would be coming up the beach with undersized ormers because they had similarly ‘forgotten’ their measures.
You only have to look at other aspect of the law ignored by Sea Fisheries such as the wearing of wetsuits and the issue of ‘submerging to any degree’, to see what would happen next.
Lihou Island is covered in multi-coloured wetsuit-wearing men up to their chests in water on every ormering tide – illegal, but ignored by Sea Fisheries.
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There are many small disputes which wind up in court unnecessarily. Its a waste of time and money and is definitely an area which needs to be looked at.
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Yes, we should have laws to protect the enviroment and the public. But this is madness. I have known one of these gentlemen for a very long time, and know him to be, a caring and honest man. Taking him to court, and then showing his face on the Guernsey press is what should happen to rapists and paedophiles not to a decent Guernseyman. what a waste of both the Police and the Court’s time !
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A.J.
Well said
I know a chap that got caught a few years back and he is the most honest person you could meet. He was the one that actually aproached the sea fisheries as he was unsure of some of his catch, then they nicked him for it. It was in the local papers.
One of the things that i just hate about some of these gits that enforce the law are and have been the ones who HAVE accepted ormers from divers and one used to dive for them himself.
Prev will know exactly what i mean. Thats not me pointing the finger just incase anybody reads it wrong.
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I was fishing from the shore last week at grande harve and saw some divers in the reef omering after i saw them get in to there cars and later they were down my local selling the ormers. i think sea fisheries are picking on the wrong people and not watching out for the real criminals.
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So AJ, he’s above the law is he this honest chap?
You know what I think, Sea Fisheries had found more and more people coming up with ormers they knew were a little undersize in the knowledge that if stopped they’d just be made to take them back, as I have seen happen a few times, and decided to make an example of a couple of people.
And good on them, you’ll get less undersize taken next year as a result that’s for sure.
SEADOG, so did you report them? Give the police or sea fisheries their car reg? Take a photo of them on your phone?
And also, because I saw someone driving at at least 70mph the other day does that mean that I can drive at 50mph myself? Yes it’s illegal but it’s not as bad as that other bloke so I should be able to get away with it according to your logic.
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Yeah when I got caught doing 28 in a 25 zone I thought that was a wate of time too
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if we want to preserve the ormer (i only think it a good idea from an eco standpoint as i reckon an egg and a few chips wins hands down, now we are in 2011), strict fishing rules must apply. a mm or two seems petty but you have to draw a line. those who were nicked should have known better. the fact is many people will be far more careful now that this case is public. as for divers – shop them and sue them like all the other dodgers who nick stuff off everyone else and do it only for a quick greedy buck.
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Sea dog, Did you phone the police or buy some ormers in the pub ?
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All things look bigger under water what an excuse,
still when you have been involved with the states you think you can get away with anything!
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Beach ormerers are not so much of a problem to the ormer population as divers.
Divers don’t have to wory about the state of the tide nor of the season nor of the size of the ormers, and thus are the main reason for the shortage of ormers. DIVING FOR ORMERS SHOULD HAVE BEEN BANNED YEARS AGO.
I knew one such fisherman who dived all the time and sold his catch in Jersey and France, and who never ever got taken to task.
That said, all those who take undersize fish should be heavily fined – no excuses. Any doubt then put them back.
Bry
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For Brian and a considerable proportion of shore-gatherers…
Quote from tide tables (p.73)
“It is not permitted to take ormers by diving, which includes using masks, flippers, diving suits, any breathing apparatus and being submerged to any extent”
And also (p. 75)
“It is prohibited to take ormers (and crayfish) by diving at any time.”
That’s pretty clear to me – shame it is not policed.
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Nice well informed comment Brian, diving for ormers WAS banned years ago. Loving your work!
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Mr Le Prevost as owner of a seafood business would be the first to complain if a French boat came in offering him undersize fish, in whatever form, for him to sell, wouldn’t he?
As he is a regular user of the round table at a very popular harbour cafe where every day you can hear all sorts of rubbish talked about Island issues by barrack room lawyers his contributions can be heard above others.
One of our deputies said the other day that he goes there to learn about opinions of the working man. What a good source of opinion to take to the States meetings.
As he predicted, I will say it, “A law is a law and 1mm too small is as good as 100mm too small”. If Mr Le Prevost believes what he has stated perhaps the Sea Fisheries should check his stock to see if he is selling undersize fish. He shouldn`t have anything to hide…
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Brian,
If you knew someone who was diving for ormers illegally why didn`t you report them? I guess your share kept your mouth full and chewing on the proceeds did they?
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All,
I don’t really see the point of most of your comments, isn’t the point of the story about wasting money taking these people to court? Surely a fixed penalty could be applied for all minor offences and then a weekly list published in the GP naming and shaming to act as a deterrent, or is that just too simple…!?
I do enjoy reading your comments though. Cheers
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This reminds me of a case where a 70-odd year old was prosecuted for drink-driving a couple of years ago. It was his first ever conviction and he attempted to use this in mitigation (which I’m pleased to say didn’t really work). People in their 70s don’t just suddenly start drink-driving (or taking undersize ormers). More than likely they’ve been at it for years and years and have just been lucky in that they haven’t been caught.
As for them being only slightly smaller than the required size, if 1mm too small is ok then what about 2mm too small? Or 3mm to small? The limit is there for a reason, and anything under it is not acceptable. Is it any wonder that the ormer population is struggling when so many people seem to be in favour of allowing people who take undersized ormers to go unpunished?
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@BOYL
I agree with your suggestion entirely. Fixed penalties, issued there and then would be an excellent way forward.
They should also be issued for offences such as littering and especially aimed at the hoards of people who either don’t pick up their dog’s mess or bag it up and chuck in the nearest vegetation when no-one’s around.
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BOYL – your fines will prevent something like this happening…
http://www.gsyfutu.com/?p=16589
Funny, but sadly so easy to relate to.
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Has this silly escapade eclipsed the fact that there were no stories I saw, or heard of as in previous years, that the ormer gatherers were finding “good” catches and a free meal? Maybe it is time to leave these little creatures where they are and let them grow.
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Stiletto – although there were some reasonable catches again this year, the general feedback I’ve heard is that there weren’t the numbers of small (undersized) ormers to replenish the population for future seasons. It would seem that the species is only heading one way locally – perhaps it is Guernsey’s Passenger Pigeon – or Dodo.
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I note that our neighbours in Brittany and Normandy impose a 9cm minimum size on Ormers taken.
Perhaps in the interest of maintaining the species we sure be thinking along similar lines?
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Michael R – It is rather telling that the French, with a history of ridiculously small minimum sizes for various species, have an ormer limit LARGER than ours.
It appears they are more willing to accept that some species are in trouble than our Sea Fisheries, with their general ‘everything is fine’ approach.
I suspect that much of this is to do with a fear of grasping the nettle because there will be an inevitable response from local fishermen quick to say ‘but it’s our livelihood’ or ‘it’s not our fault, it’s the French/Spanish/Russians’ or the one I heard a couple of years ago ‘the water’s too cold’.
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Just my thoughts:
Were they breaking the law – YES.
Is Sea Fisheries correct in prosecuting – again YES. It wasn’t just one undersized that accidentally got taken it was a number of them. It also sends out a message that this practice is unacceptable. Assuming the limits are set correctly they should allow the ormer (and any other fish/shell fish) enough time as a sexually mature adult to breed and hence ensure the survival of its replacement. Taking undersized fish means that this can not take place and stocks decline.
Is it correct that court time (and legal costs) is wasted on minor miss-demeanours – NO. Guernsey should bring in an on the spot fining system for a wide range of offences such this, speeding etc.
Also to correct some comments made above – wearing a drysuit/wetsuit is allowed. This was changed some years ago. What is not allowed is submerging yourself to collect ormers, this includes diving.
Whilst I am sure that diving for ormers does occasionally take place I honestly believe this is more urban myth than reality. I have been diving in Guernsey for over 20 year so know and see a lot of divers. I have never seen or heard any of them taking ormers.
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Gsy Diver – I have just looked up the current law on the SOG website. It is the 1997 Fishing Ordinance.
“take by diving” means to take when totally or partially submerged
and either breathing with the aid of submarine breathing apparatus (including a snorkel and any other diving device whatsoever) or wearing a diving suit, face visor, mask or goggles: and cognate expressions shall be construed accordingly,
So my interpretation is this – to partially submerge whilst wearing a wetsuit, as a considerable number of shore-gatherers do, is an offence. And so it should be as it gives such a considerable advantage over those more sporting ormerers who don’t wear wetsuits and get much colder.
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Guernsey Diver
You may not have heard or seen anything but i can tell you of at least 4 pro divers/fisherman that used to do it all the time also diving for crawfish off the south coast. And i bet you would know at least one of their names as he is high profile in the industry.
I am going back a good few years and am sure these same people are not even fishing anymore.
Takeing underize fish directly to France was another popular practice.
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Hi Guys,
Re Wetsuits etc:
Please follow link below and then on the right hand side is a further link for ormering tides and legislation. Very clear: A wetsuit may be worn while gathering ormers but it must not be used in
combination with any other diving apparatus…
http://www.gov.gg/ccm/navigation/commerce—employment/sea-fisheries/information/
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Where’s Takey when you need him? A house built on ormering…………..
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Phil
Just ormers??? :)
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Gsy Diver – thanks for providing this additional information. I have to say that I’m disappointed that the law is both contradictory and confusing.
In permitting the wearing of wetsuits for shore-gatherers, Sea Fisheries are more to blame for the decline of ormers than anyone.
Ormer numbers have crashed over the decades from a time when anyone could gather as many as they wanted to the current situation where only the more determined gatherers can find a reasonable number.
Now, throw in the reports of fewer small ormers and the risks faced by smaller, more vulnerable populations and you have the potential recipe for a local extinction. It’s happened before.
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Hi Donkey’s Wotsits
I recall when the Sea Fisheries changed their policy regarding wetsuits the reasoning was that you can get wetsuits for other sports – canooning/yachting/surfing etc and therefore it would be almost impossible to prosecute someone for wearing a wetsuit as diving equipment when they could be used in so many other pursuits.
Would very much like to hear from Sea Fisheries as to whether any monitoring of ormer stocks is taking place. There is a lot of hear-say about the health of the ormer population but I’ve heard nothing scientific to support or counter these comments.
BcB
Yes divers used to collect ormers but as you say that was in the past. (you only need to look at some of the archive photo’s from the 70′s to see boats with ormers covering the decks). Whilst there is likely to be a small handful (as with any walk of life) who break the law the vast majority of divers enter the hobby due to their love of the environment and diving for ormers really is seen as a big no no.
The reason I am saying this is that it seems to me that far too many people are looking to blame divers for the apparent decline in ormer numbers and if we are to prevent the ormer being confined to history the Sea Fisheries need to take action based on evidence and not conjecture.
My own feeling is that shore gathering is doing a lot more damage than many be people appreciate. Yes there is the direct taking of the ormer but with correct size limits and policing this shouldn’t cause stocks to decline. My concern is the damage is done by turning stones and not returning them to their original position. By leaving the stones upside down animals that live on the protected underneath are exposed to the sun and die. Algae and seaweed that lives on top is trapped underneath and dies without the sun to photosynthesis. Unfortunately it’s this algae and seaweed which the ormers graze on. If you go down to any of the rocky bays in March and April you will see that all the stones at the low tide mark are bare and sun bleached from where they have been turned.
So what should be done – first of all establish the facts – Sea Fisheries need to monitor ormer stocks and provide factual evidence to confirm the current population and whether it is in decline.
If it is in decline what next.
1. Out right ban would be a real shame ormering is part of our heritage and one of the few local activities that passes down generations with grandparents showing grandchildren their secret spot.
2. Increasing size limits – probably part of the solution but not always the complete answer for fisheries management
3. No take zones. This principle has worked really well in some other fisheries particularly where relatively sedentary shellfish are involved. Potentially the Island could be separated into 4 zones with 1 permanent no take zone and in the other 3 zones only being allowed to take ormers for 2 years out of 3.
Sorry about the rather long post and thanks for reading.
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excuse my ignorence…what is an ormer?
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Dave Riley
Basically it’s a Haliotis Tuberculata,a coastal marine gastropod in the family Haliotidae
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Undersized ormers in a catch ?
On the spot fines should be imposed, failure to comply should result in a visit to the courtroom,
Done.
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Gsy Diver – I agree that shore-gathering is extremely damaging in its current form. Even by the end of January (after just two of the season’s eight spring tide cycles) large areas of the beach are white with upturned stones.
You are correct that this destroys the ormer’s habitat as virtually everything on the stone dies. Gatherers have argued that replacing the stone crushes life underneath and while that is true on a very minor scale (a small number of squashed crabs and fish), it isn’t on the scale of destruction from leaving the stones upside down.
Gatherers should be honest and say what they really mean – turning back stones slows them down in the hunt.
A friend of mine told me that if he left stones turned when he was a kid, he’d get a clip round the ear from his father. Sadly, this awareness of the environment and efforts to care for it is clearly lacking.
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I think there should be bag limits. 12 ormers per person per tide. You don’t need any more unless you’re doing it for commercial gain.
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Dave Riley
You dont know what an ormer is my boy? cor blimey you haven’t lived, you ain’t a Guern till you have eaten an ormer.
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