Town firefighters want another £5,500 a year
Friday 18th March 2011, 2:29PM GMT.
TOWN firefighters yesterday staked their claim for a pay increase of almost £5,500 a year.
That equates to a near 19% rise, but does not include a list of other demands officers outlined at an industrial tribunal convened to resolve the pay dispute.
Officers also want to see their overtime pay increased to double time from time-and-a-half, and standby payments equal to what they claim airport firefighters currently receive.
Retained/part-time firefighters would on the other hand receive an increase in line with RPI in March 2010.
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Don’t we all
Sack the lot of them
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Worth every penny, can’t believe we are even arguing about paying them.
Its funny how they are looked upon by some as snooker playing layabouts until the moment your house catches fire and they put their life on the line for you, or you or your family are involved in a serious car accident.
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Why? are they suddenly very busy?
Surely to get more money than the annual RPI one must be expected to do more for it?
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Well said wtf. Nobody else is getting another £5.5k a year in this current climate.
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Hmmm,
now that is an intelligent response. For more years than I can remember the states have artificially held states workers pay low whilst the private sector has flourished and has often been encouraged by states decisions. Huh, dare we mention bonuses and higher than inflation pay rises, not many states employees living mortgage free or in a house they probably haven’t held two or more jobs to get and keep. Some haven’t had holidays off island or even pay rises for up to seven years. Next people will be bitching about golden handshake pensions because they no longer have them. I say every states department should go to tribunal, I will pay more tax etc sweat shop workers not welcome working for our government. trim the fat, get rid of some deputies etc, why do I need so many people telling me how to do my job or live my life, they sponge off the public making mountains out of molehills, this island was ran very well with a lot less people sticking an oar in, decisions were made and so was money
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Well the hang em, flogg, em, anti lazy States Workers brigade hasn’t had anything to dig their teeth into for a while. So get ready for the onslaught!.
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The Firefighters want to try working in the U.K at the momoent.
£5,500 increase on the Year (£100 per week)..
Sack the lot and get into the Real World…….
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Pete
The onslaught is comeing from the firefighters holding the tax payer to ransom?.
I wondered how long it would be before we had someone trotting out the “running into burning buildings and saving our lives”.
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Can’t really comment on how much private/public pay scales have separated over the years as I haven’t got the figures but let me ask all the neigh sayers one question. How much money would you want before you put your life on the line for someone you don’t know? Even a simple car on fire, the fuel tank can explode let alone a building collapsing around you. All emergency services are the same. How much money would you want to tackle a person waving a knife about or deal with someone bleeding profusely that may be HIV +ve or have Hepatitis. I suspect many criticisers work behind a desk and may risk an occasional paper cut!
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Donkey Doo – but we are risking those paper cuts, often for people we don’t know all day, every day.
None of us would be sensible to take the risks “bare”. But people occasionally do, nonetheless.
Were we to receive the hundreds of hours of training in risk mitigation that the firefighters do, have the equipment that they have, and the trained back-up and support then yes, many of us would be prepared to take the same risks they do; particularly as the occasions they actually run them are infrequent, if significant.
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OK for all those outside the responsibility of government tell me what you would have done? The Airport is shut the AFF are refusing to attend a tribunal and thousands of passengers are having a pretty miserable time, including I might add several people trying to get to medical appointments at Southampton and other UK hospitals and clinics. How long would you have been prepared to tough it out? especially when some of the AFF grievances were legitimate. Over to you.
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The brave/risk-taking angle is the same one used to describe military personal and – not to detract from the work these people do – risk is the factor that draws people to these jobs in the first place.
We need the risk-takers to want these jobs, but we also need people to fill the tedious jobs that no one really wants: and they’re the ones that are worst paid.
It’s unsurprising that a testosterone-fuelled workplace would be filled with men who are prepared to fight for more money, whilst nursing – traditionally a more feminine career – is not.
(Am I wrong in thinking that the fire jobs are mostly part-time and therefore most of them have other jobs too? Or is that just in England?)
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Dave Jones,
So if you want a decent payrise then the way forward is to blackmail the States?
Thanks, will use that soon.
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Dave
If, and I stress if; the airport firefighters were to repeat the tactics of last year in May of this year,can we expect Alastair Langlois and his team to make simialar concessions as last year to settle the matter?
Or is this year different because the grievances may not be legitimate? Will the lack of legitimacy give those making the decsions the courage to resist?
Problem is whether the claim is legitimate or not, it seems the airport firefighters have the States negotiators by the proverbials.
Pressure is pressure especially when they begin to squeeze – airport shut, hospital apoinments missed etc.
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Gorilla
You haven’t answered the question, I repeat your airport is shut and thousands of people are having there lives disrupted. What is your solution? It is no good saying the nasty AFF are blackmailing us, the Airport is shut down, thats it.
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Dave Jones – has the airport shut as a result of the town firefighters pay claim, then?
That’d be twice that the states have let that happen in a couple of years…I’d sack the lot – the states that is, not the firefighters.
Worst states ever.
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There you go public workers, what ever you want just make sure you come up with a ruse to make the island suffer and you can have it all courtesy of Deputy Jones.
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Dave
I’ll tell you what I’d do – make it illegal for firefighters to go on strike.
You must be their best friend – thinking that the only option is to cave in to their demands. How long before it happens again?
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Deputy Jones has a point. It’s easy to armchair criticise but there’s no doubt it difficult to negotiate when a group of people effectively have you by the balls.
Something to put into the melting pot: Can anyone confirm whether we have legislation that prevents essential public workers from strike action? If not, is the AFF strike proof that such legislation should either be implemented or expanded to include firefighters?
I’d be interested to know what people think.
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Dave Jones
You ask Gorilla “I repeat your airport is shut and thousands of people are having there lives disrupted. What is your solution?”
The solution in May 2010 was to have had the Tribunal whether or not the firefighters joined the party or not. As you efectively say, what actually happended was total capitualation by the negotiators
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Paul and Bob
You haven’t answered the question, what would you have done? It is all very well sitting in your armchairs sniping but you don’t have a solution, other than to presumably keep the airport shut and the public suffering indefinitely while you faff about wringing your hands about how horrid a group of workers are being. Of course it was unsatisfactory what took place but when you’re in government your first responsibility is to the public and their welfare, everything else is secondary to that. As you never had to make any of these decisions your response is sadly predictable.
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Stephen I think you will find that there are much better contingency plans should there be a recurrence of this dispute, apart from that I seem to recall that part of the settlement was a no strike clause.
PS Good to hear from you again.
Dave
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guernsey press editor(ial) 19.3.11 rails against the 4.5% for town firemen because public sector spending out of control. compare previously – guernsey press editor skipping hand in hand with chief minister, but clearly bringing down the old PSRC in the penalty area to broker the mega rise the airport firemen wanted. explain please, someone?
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Dave
Good to know there are contingency plans in place if history repeats itself.
Do you or anyone know whether the no strike clause is a)legally binding and b)applicable for the term of the agreement or in perpetuity?
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Stephen
So you have had the tribunal in the absence of the men , the airport is still closed, one, two or three weeks later who knows and all the ferry’s are over booked, deputies phones are ringing off the hook as irate islanders can’t travel. I would suggest you would do what you could to get the airport open and passengers moving. As I said it was wholly unsatisfactory but the cold stark truth is that we only have one airport and without it the island is crippled.
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I expect our government to be strong and not to let the situation to get out of control in the first instance. Once again Deputy Jones attacks our legitimate concerns with his throw away attempts to belittle our ‘armchair politics’. He forgets that it is only our endeavours in running business’s which provides the tax take that he and others consume within the public sector. The airport dispute would never have happened in the private sector, when will you learn there is not a bottomless pit of money.
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Dave
The Tribunal was arranged for the Friday of the week of the invovement by the CM.
The Tribunal was arranged as psrt of Guernsey Law.
A finding of the Tribunal was likely within a day or so. Time enough for an emergency law to be brought in to keep open the airport.
Of course we shall never know if the firefighter posturing was bluff or not. With public support on the wane I wonder oif they would have held out.
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Paul
The government as you put it acted very quickly and got the Airport open again and I am certainly not attacking your legitimate concerns. What I asked you was to tell us what you would have done to get the Airport open again? bringing an end the misery of huge numbers of the traveling public who were screaming for something to be done quickly, you chose not to answer that question because I suspect it is not easy to answer. You tell us it would never have happened in the private sector, Oh! really, well it is private companies that have grounded more aircraft than almost anybody, Baggage handler’s strikes, British Airways cabin crew strikes just to name a couple. I might ask you, when you will learn, that having our airport closed costs our economy millions?
Stephen
I take your point about the Tribunal but whenever it was is immaterial as the AFF would take no part in it and would not have been bound by its findings. What emergency law would have kept open the airport? Without the co-operation of the union we had no emergency fire cover at the airport and if some of the FF had carried out their threat to quit the service altogether, we would have been in a real mess as we would not have had even enough FF to do the basic shift. You have to remember that part of the FF’s grievances was that they were loosing too many rest days because the service did not have enough trained men and there was no slack in the system to cover. For our part “holding out was not an option we had to get that airport open for all the reasons given then and since.
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Stephen John / Dave Jones
more to the point – what are the repurcussions if they break the “no strike” clause? At the end of the day, whether or not it is a legal strike doesn’t matter if there are no firefighters working.
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Mark
Good point. I asked this question earlier this morning. No one has yet answeres it. I would presume the no strike clause is limited to the current agreeement.
Problem is.Is the no strike clause an promise, that can be ignored, or is it legally binding. If it is legaly binding what happens if they ignored the clause and stopped work.
Dave Jones
This gets potentially worse by the minute. Give in or else.
If you recall the climax last year was when the firemen stopped work completely, just after the Editor and CM intervention. Seems they can stop work regardless of the cover issue and still close the airport.
Game, set and match to firefighters?
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This article was with regard to the Town FF…
I can see why they want the same money as the AFF, they are the ones that actually work for it and attend (occasionaly) fires. How often do the AFF actually do anything other than sit about or train?
Incidently, i know 2 members of the AFF and both have other, near full-time jobs, nice work if you can get it!
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Stephen
I checked yesterday on the no strike agreement and it is for the term agreed at the time of the settlement.
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Dave
Thanks.
I assume the agreement was for one year?
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I think for the job they do I hope they get what they want the deserve it.
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Stephen John – so what if there’s a legally binding no-strike bribe, or ransom. It’s utterly meaningless.
You are faced with a choice. Let’s say you let them strike – airport shut. Let’s say you enforce the legal agreement – firefighters locked up in prison – airport shut. How else could you enforce the no-strike agreement – you cannot force people to work – it’s contrary to human rights. So they break their agreement, and you ask for the no-strike money back. Airport still shut.
In UK at least they have other airfields, and other crews available if need be.
So who can step in to man the airport equipment? Have the Town FF been adequately trained in its use?
Dave Jones – “As you never had to make any of these decisions your response is sadly predictable” What response was that, then? The one where I asked you if the airport had really closed again as you stated in your earlier postings (Mar 21, 12:56 and again, Mar 21, 3:57)?
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Stephen
I think that is right.
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Bob
The town FF’s are not trained to tackle aviation fires as I understand it, if they were then we might have been able to call them in when cover at the airport fell short of acceptable levels. My comment was made because, it is very simple for people to say that this shouldn’t have happened or we should have done so and so but when you are in government you have to do whatever you can to protect your people, sometimes that might mean making decisions that you would rather not have to make, however making people suffer just to prove a point to a group of employees is not the way any government should behave and however unpalatable the alternative is, you have to do what is right at the time. Which is why I said that the response from those not required to make these decisions was predictable.
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Replace the “no strike clause” with an ongoing yearly no strike bonus which is a percentage of their annual pay. The percentage of pay paid will increase for every year that they do not participate in a strike, for example, the bonus may start at 5% of salary in the first year and then increase 1% each subsequent year to a maximum of 10% after five years of continuous service with no strike action.
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I am sick of people slating the firefighters for asking for a pay rise. Lets get something straight here. IF they firefighters do have a second job, how is this different to any other person in Guernsey having a second job? Well I will tell you how, their second jobs are extremely limited because of the fact that they have to be able to leave at a moments notice and how many of you commenting on this story actually have a boss that would employ somebody knowing they could be halfway through something and then just leave for potentially the rest of the day? I guess not many.
The latest annual report available online indicates that in one year the service attended 821 calls, of these 154 were fires, so for those of you saying they dont deserve the pay rise, investigate what they actually do, because when they are not attending emergency calls they are carrying out training, safety checks at public buildings and workplaces (over 1000 a year) to ensure your safety, but if something did go they wrong and you were in trouble they would not think twice about risking their lives to saves yours, but its ok they dont deserve to be paid adequately for that.
Lets face it, if you work in a bank and don’t like your payrise and bonus, you leave, I guess they can easily do the same cant they? Oh no wait, they do a specialised job which involves 16 weeks of off island training, 2 years probation and the only chance of promotion arising if somebody leaves which is rare because they love their job and the rewards it brings through helping the people who feel they should be sacked and don’t earn their money.
Rant over and I await all the backlash I get from it, and yes I know several people in the fire service and have unfortunately failed the fitness test on more than one occasion because it is that difficult, some people go to the gym for fun, these guys do it to save your life if it is needed and because if they don’t keep a high level of fitness it could result in the loss of YOUR life
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Scott
I understand the difficulties and drawbacks of being a fireman, such as risking your life, not being able to move jobs etc. I also understand the advantages, such as an outdoor lifestyle, flexible shift work, physical activity, states pension etc.
I get bored with hearing about firefighters greivances. I would much rather be a firefighter than stuck in an office job but, for me earning more money was more important so I had to undertake different qualifications (which take a lot longer than 16 weeks) and work in a different industry. This is a career choice.
The point is that we have a choice about which profession we enter and know at the start of our careers generally what the benefits and drawbacks are. It seems to me firefighters want the best of both worlds – all the advantages and none of the drawbacks. I understand there are over 100 people waiting to become firemen on the island at the moment, and that is on current benefit levels. Intersting to know what the pro-firefighters think….
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Interesting topic, and read through all the views and it is clear that the Fireman are trying to hold Guernsey to ransom. Its human nature to want to be paid well and have decent standard of living which is most reasonable, but the Government nor the people of Guernsey should have their lives dictated to by people working in a public sector department.
Dave Jones points out that the back, was firmly against the wall during the airport strike but he is mostly wrong and partly right.
If the fireman had continued their strike leaving thousands stranded, appointments for a hospital in the UK missed, lost business from the tourists not arriving. It would not have been long, before the people would have turned on a greedy group of states workers, the airport fireman, holding the island to ransom, not the politicians.
Do people working evenings and weekends in the private sector, earn a more? do they have gold plated pensions, do they retire early when the rest of us are being asked to work longer………………………… no.
Do the members of the fire service have a very dangerous job, possibly, but how much more dangerous than years ago, with elf and safety so prevalent these days.
Should they be paid more than a soldier working a night shift in Afghanistan or a man women employed to work for 38 hours a week down the sewer system.
The States are responsible for spending hard earned taxpayers money prudently. This is important, If those working in the fire service are not happy leave and go to work in the private sector see if you get paid any where as much there.
Unless the states get a grip, and further pay awards are resisted, claims for wage discrimination will flood in probably from the police, the traffic wardens, the street road inspectors wanting danger money the list is endless.
Time to get a grip States members while you still can. This does take the right politicians in the right job, business acumen and back bone both needed to protect the public finances, and indirectly the ill, infirm, pensioners and others as there is only so much money in the pot.
Davey West
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Thing is, Dave, many of us outside the states are required to make that kind of decision on a regular basis. All of us in the private sector have clients and contacts that would be grossly inconvenienced should industrial action occur. We too could allow matters to reach crisis point so that the staff walk out. We’d lose many customers and do untold damage to our reputation. Inconvenience and delay would spread, and cost the island jobs and businesses beyond our own.
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First off I must say that emergency workers are relatively low paid and should not be.
However, that does not mean they should be able to hold the States to ransom to get what they want. Employment contracts should be amended to include clauses stopping employees from having a second job and forfeiting all pay for the duration of any strike action. That would certainly help.
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lets train the town firemen to cover the airport pay rise earnt.
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I would like to know if there has been a consideration to amalgamate the town and airport services? The town station does not need to be where it is and could easily be situated in a more central area without cutting average call out times. The valuable town site could be sold and would more than cover any relocation costs. The benefits in rota training and working practice should be beneficial to both sides in fact it is hard to see any negative points at all.
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ARMY PAY SCALES
(April 1 2010 – March 31 2011)
Level 1 £17,014 £17,014
Level 2 £18,341 £17,485
Level 3 £20,250 £17,956
Level 4 £21,773 £19,529
Level 5 £24,074 £20,581
Level 6 £25,245 £21,441
Level 7 £26,404 £22,358
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales.htm
——————————————
Pay Rates for UK Fireman
Firefighter ( 2009 figures )
Trainee £21,157 £ 9.66 to £14.49 per hour
Develop. £22,038 £10.06 to £15.09
Competent£28,199 £12.88 to £19.32
Crew Manager
Development £29,971 £13.69 to £20.54 per hour
Competent £31,263 £14.28 to £21.42
Watch Manager
Development £31,940 £14.58 to £21.87
Competent A £32,827 £14.99 to £22.49
http://www.politics.co.uk/briefings-guides/issue-briefs/policing-and-crime/firefighters-pay-$366553.htm
It is certainly not faultless way to compare rates from different countries but the UK authorities could be used as a rough rule of thumb as you would expect the training to be up to UK standards.
Interestingly and to add balance to the Guernsey airport and town fire fighters dispute,I looked for the rates of their pay scales to confirm they are indeed being badly rewarded hence the extra £5,500 per year wage increase asked for by the town station employees.
Nothing appears to be in the public domain under Guernsey public sector pay scales, which is unusual theses days, or am I looking in the wrong place? I suggest this to be clearly wrong, as they are paid by the public and the public have a right to know that the fireman are being treated fairly, and equally how much they cost the public purse in a detailed breakdown. They will be aware also that the UK Fireman suffer a more aggressive tax regime.
Davey West
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