‘Stop paying our deputies’
Thursday 24th March 2011, 2:29PM GMT.
GUERNSEY would be better off going back to the days when deputies were unpaid, a former States member believes.
One-time deputy chief minister and Commerce and Employment minister Stuart Falla (pictured) said the current level paid to deputies is too high and has attracted those who see politics as a career rather than those who want to make a real difference to the island.
‘I believe we’re going towards having career politicians who are less prepared to pursue difficult decisions and are more worried about being voted in next time around,’ he said. ‘I think the payment of politicians has contributed to that.
‘The States has become very attractive and a reasonably well paid job for a variety of people, but they might not have stood if that pay hadn’t been there.’
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I totally agree!! They get paid more than most and its only when up for election that they tend to listen to what you have to say.
Promises are made, and then broken!!
I wonder how many of them would stand if they weren’t paid?
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I disagree. The reverse side of that argument is that not paying politicians ensures only those reasonably well off can stand for office.
I like the idea that anyone can stand for Deputy knowing that, if elected, they have a reasonable income with which to support themselves. This means they can commit their time to the business of government.
With all due respect to Mr Falla – not everyone had the opportunity to inherit their father’s business.
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Like all Government based systems there will be the people that abuse it, but some deputies work very hard and deserve their wages. Perhaps a system of review that ensures the deputies are fulfilling their duties could ensure Guernsey Islanders get their monies worth?
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We should carry on paying our deputies for the reason Paul outlines but we can cut their overall wage bill by paying fewer of them. In other words do we really need 45 politicians to govern this island of 65,000?
I say cut the number of deputies by at least 10 and while we’re about it get rid of the two Alderney reps in favour of a single deputy for Alderney, which has always been grossly over represented in Guernsey’s States of Deliberation.
Also, I’m not sure if our deputies are still entitled to any special pension funded by the taxpayer but if they are ‘self-employed’ as Dave Jones and Lyndon Trott keep on saying, they should not be entitled to anything above and beyond the standard old age pension they pay their stamps for.
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Sorry, I forgot to ask. Does anyone know if Stuart is related to PB Falla, the champion of the Guernsey exodus?
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At the end of the day a lot of the deputies have alternative jobs anyway, they’re only busy for 1 day out of the month.
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Martino
I pay over a hundred pounds a month into my pension on top of my fairly hefty self employed social security contributions, Also it is not I that says we are self employed, it is the Social Security department who insist that is the case.
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Yes carry on paying them;
However now comes the opportunity to decrease the number of Deps, to a reasonable ‘flock’
I say flock because most follow my leader.
Cut the number to about 3 (Three) to a parish.
Also now it should be made quite clearly that as it’s the people who pay their wages, then they are employed by the people. and should have the same rights as employed people … which includes the right to dismissal if found wanting.
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Mr Falla thought he had the tools to be a deputy thats why (i assume) he stood?. He wanted to make a difference for the better i would hope.
How would he have achieved this if he wasen`t wealthy and the only form of income was from his wages as a deputy?.
So Mr Falla we would only get quality deputies? such as yourself if your loaded to start with?.
Thats one way to narrow the potential pool of candidates down.
I don`t want to comment on the quality of the deputies here but lets be honest for the hours many of them do and the garbage they have to put up with the pay is c**p.
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Stuart Falla was one of those few people whom one could guarantee a place in politics,once he decided to stand. Having chucked his toys out when things did not go his way did him no credit whatsoever. It is very easy for him to state, from a position of inherited wealth and standing that deputies should forego payment. I wonder though if Deps Gollop, Matthews, Brehaut, etc, etc, would stand again without remuneration, all we hear from the likes of these is time wasting rhetoric, justification of their role.
The only rich man, who incidently achieved this status on his own two feet, and stood for office was Roger Perrot. He bought about the Guernsey RAT, a means of transferring personal pensions into a more flexible arrangement, therebye earning the respect of the Guernsey people.
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I agree 100%. I,in company with a lot of other people, thought it was a huge mistake at the time.
States members used to be men with great business acumen who managed the island magnificently. Now any loud-mouthed ex shop steward or self-serving loafer can get in, merely by loudly promising the unthinking and dim-witted a free lunch.
Poor old Guernsey is on the slippery slope government-wise while all decisions are placed in the overflowing ‘Too Hard’ basket.
You now have too many people living in too small an area with not enough housing, driving too many cars on too few roads, creating too much rubbish and too much crime. Turn the clock back before it is too late!
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I totally agree Paul Le Page, could not have put it better myself.
A good mix of candidates is far healthier than 45 business men who have retired. Oh the very thought,sends a shiver down my spine.
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I totally agree with Mr Falla. As with charity work, those going into politics should do so to give something back to the community, not for financial reward and not for a career.
If somebody claimed they we’re running a charity for the greater good and then took a big salary out, we would all have an issue with it. However politics seems to work differently.
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Thanks for the clarification Dave. I did say I wasn’t sure and I do not begrudge you one penny of what you put into your pension when you take it out. Also, I can totally empathise re those hefty self-employed contributions, which I why I do begrudge having to subsidise the civil servants’ gold plated scheme through my taxes.
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What a shame Stuart Falla did not stay as the states would be very different to what it is today particularly the Policy Council and Chief Minister.
Being paid does mean a wider cross section but does not mean it is a good thing . Probably 70/80% see it as their career and will do nothing that may effect that position.
Why did they not lower their numbers when it is clearly the right thing to do? Why did they refuse the amendment to allow the public to decide who should be our Chief Minister.
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James Ede-Golightly
Good point – aside from the small fact that almost every major charity in the world has a team of executives who are often quite well paid. If you want a good job done, you generally have to get talented people, which generally means that you need to pay them.
I do think that we need to increase the quality (and reduce the quantity) of our deputies, but not paying them is not the way to achieve that.
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James Ede-Golightly – Terry Langlois is right. You say:
“If somebody claimed they we’re running a charity for the greater good and then took a big salary out, we would all have an issue with it.”
Better start taking issue then my friend. You can start by looking here:
http://www.charityjob.com/jobs/
When I checked this morning they had 49 jobs on £50k+ and 116 between £40-50k. Not to mention plenty below that figure.
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Dave Jones,
Wow you pay more than £100 a month into your pension. Fair play to you, only………
You neglected to mention how much the taxpayer contributes to your pension.
Your £100 or so a month equates to 6% of your wages, as that’s what deputies have to contribute to their pension. What they don’t like to tell you is that the taxpayer contributes an additional 25%.
So each year Mr Jones and co contribute £1,320 to their pension (6% of £22k, which is a deputy’s basic salary), but the taxpayer puts in £5,500. Not bad eh?
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Terry Langlois
I think you are confusing who does what:
Large charities have executive employees just as the states have civil servants.
The supervisory boards of large charities are manned by volunteers.
James
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gsyforever
I don’t make the rules I am just being honest about what I pay, I have also gone on public record as saying several times, that the present States pension system is not sustainable. If I get a chance to vote on it I will vote for change.
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Surely the tax payer pays the entire cost of the deputies, not just the pension fund.
why can’t we have career politicians anyway. surely they will be making the right decisions as it keeps them getting voted in.
Isn’t that what a democracy is?
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It is embarrassing in many ways to get into a discussion on States Members pay as we will always be accused of speaking from a point of vested interest. I joined the States before we got paid and I had a business which paid me a wage to allow me to do that. When the independent pay review panel decided that States members should be paid a reasonable salary, I gave that business up. I am a director of two very small companies and I take no payment whatsoever from either of them. My salary as a Minister at the present rates of pay (which was frozen at that level for 4 years at the start of this term), is £39,000 per annum, however it is not all salary, as it includes payments for an office allowance, phone calls (average phone bill for a quarter about £120) computer equipment, cartridges, paper, pens, stamps and envelopes and any secretarial support you can afford, all this is included in the £39,000. Out of that there is £8,000 odd in tax and Social Security payments, as we are all considered to be self employed, the SS payment is fairly high because we pay all of our contribution ourselves. As for time spent doing the job, that will depend on your responsibilities. Basing it on roughly the hours I do in a week, your wage will work out at about £9.50 per hour. Of course some weeks are busier than others. I work seven days a week and my average week actually spent on States business is around 65 hours over the 7 days. It has been slightly busier of late as we have done a number of evening presentations on the Population document; however evening presentations on all kinds of things are not unusual for States members. You also have to remember there is no job security as a deputy, after four years you can be unemployed in the blink of an eye. I don’t complain about the level of pay as it is not decided by us but I know you will not get a representative cross section of the community in the States if they were forced to do the job on a voluntarily basis. Young Deputy Fallaize for instance has a young family and a mortgage; he would never have had the opportunity to serve the island without financial support from the States, which in my view would have been the States loss. On the point of charities, there are plenty of examples of the heads and other senior staff of charities receiving fairly substantial salaries.
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Gsyforever
That’s interesting, how does that work with their self employed status? Surely that should be seen as income as they are not employed, as Deputy Jones keeps telling us.
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I normally have a lot of time for Stuart Falla but on this occasion I strongly disagree. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, oh and a number of politicians who don’t really need the money but stand a good chance of being accused of lining their own nest through their States membership and some who possibly will do just that.
It’s quite simple really, we need to pay politicians fairly for the work they do. We then need to vote in politicians with a backbone, who have the conviction to vote for unpopular things when the public need is best served. Stuart’s comment that it would stop people voting a certain way to protect their job is a true reflection of what some politicians will do, but by no means all of them.
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it is interesting that one of Stuart Falla’s reasons is that paid politicians are overly concerned with getting re-elected and avoid difficult decisions.
would he prefer a small cabal of people who could afford to be unpaid, who each know that there is no-one else willing or able to do the job and so they know they will get re-elected regardless of what they do? is that really democracy in action?
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@Mr Angry
I think we already have some monkey’s just more expensive ones. As for lining there own nests. Try looking at some of the outside business interests some of the states members have and how many planning applications have been given the green light where many others would not stand a chance. This is not however a reflection of all states members as there are always a few good ones.
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Dave,
You didn’t give the full picture though, instead you said how much you paid each month as a way of defending the fact deputies receive a pension. By the way, i’m not against deputies receiving a pension, i think they should receive one – i just think it should be in line with what one could expect in the private sector.
And any company that contributed 25% of an individual employee’s salary to a pension pot would go bust pretty quick.
You mentioned that, if you get a chance to vote on it, you’ll vote for change. Well then, why wait? Why wait for another deputy or department to take a motion or report to the Assembly? Why not place a requete on the issue of public sector pensions yourself, if you feel so strongly about it?
And please don’t give me the standard ‘recruitment’ line about how we have to have the same public sector pension setup as the UK. The final salary scheme as it stands is simply unfair to the taxpayer and should be changed based on those merits.
Paul,
Personally i think the ‘self-employed or employed’ argument isn’t really an issue. As i understand it deputies are self-employed purely for social security purposes (so taxpayers don’t have to pay these contributions for them as well as their hefty pension top-ups), but they are clearly ‘employed’ by the States/people of Guernsey and as such they receive a wage and pension benefits from the States/people of Guernsey
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Dave Jones,
Can you tell me what the pension would be for a deputy who only serves one term of office and can he/she claim any, or all of it on leaving The States?
For a figure to work from, because I don`t know what each deputy is entitled to, how about using the figure you quoted as your annual pay range.
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gsyforever
I could as you say bring a Requete and it would be thrown out in a few seconds, not because States members don’t want reform but because there is already a review taking place involving PSRC, HR and Treasury. The main reason there has been no States debate on it, is because everyone has been waiting for the Hutton report on end of salary pension schemes in the UK public sector. That report has said what many other people in Guernsey have said and that is that the present pension arrangements are not financially sustainable. Having said that we have lots of employees who joined the Civil service under the present agreement and you cannot just tare up these employees employment contracts overnight. However what we should be doing is preventing new entrants into the civil service from having the same pension rights, nothing should be retrospective but we could certainly stop the futures costs becoming bigger by more action now. I look forward to the debate.
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nocon
You can join the pension scheme once you become a States member for however long you serve. I think its the same rate for everybody but i would have to check
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I’m sorry Dave but when you say ‘nothing can be retrospective’ that is a disgraceful cop out. You know as well as I do that the present ‘contract’ with civil servants is a nonsense because there will not be enough money in the pot to afford their gold plated pensions in future. It’s easy to talk of stopping final salary pensions for new recruits in the future but this is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Too many deputies and civil servants still appear to regard the taxpayers’ purse as a bottomless pit to plunder when it comes to satisfying their alleged pension rights. And what about the greater ‘contract’ with the Guernsey taxpayer? That surely must override any so called ‘contract’ with your civil service friends. I’m not just having a dig at you Dave. I have no faith and confidence in Alastair Langlois to deliver the goods with the pension review you speak of. As a former career civil servant who presumably receives a final salary pension himself he simply cannot be trusted to deliver an outcome that is fair to the taxpayer. What about an independent review by an outside private pensions expert that is absolutely binding on the island’s politicians and their civil service chums?
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I am an example of a current Deputy who could only take on the role if it be paid.
As a former teacher, I took a substantial drop in salary to join the States. No complaints; I fully understood the terms in advance.
As a teacher, I would be debarred from combining the two roles because of a perceived conflict of interest so I have no other job and I hold no directorships, etc.
I could then be portrayed as a “second career politician” and, as such, may be just the sort of Deputy that some in our community would regard as the wrong sort of politician.
However, to suggest that I am more motivated by considerations of re-election than of taking decisions which might make a positive difference to our community would be both wrong and somewhat patronising.
That said, if my voting, speaking and working record is of insufficient quality, the verdict will be returned by those very Castel electors who also put their confidence in Mr Falla.
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Martino – Explain please the gross over representation of Alderney?
They are roughly 4% of the population of the Bailiwick and 2 out of 45 is roughly 4%.
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Is this a Defined Benefit or Defined Contribution scheme states members get?
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Dave
Surely “self-employed” people should make their own pension arrangements? Yet another example of the ridiculous assertion that States members are self-employed.
You get the advantages of being self-employed (work whatever hours you like, take as many holidays as you like etc) and also the advantages of being employed (salary, pension scheme etc).
Noses in the trough seems quite an apt phrase don’t you think?
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Sean McManus
Lucky Castel electors
Shame about the Vale,St Sampsons,St Peter Port,St Martins,St Andrews,Forest,St Saviours,St Peters and Torteval electors
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Hello Hello, Guernsey’s population roughly 60,000, Alderney’s roughly 2,000, which gives a 30:1 ratio.
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Phil
It is not I that deem us to be self employed it is the Social Security department. I am interviewed every four years by several thousand people in the Vale, they are the ones who decide whether they wish to continue with my employment or not. That is after I have spent several hundred pounds of my own money on manifestos for the elections. As for working whatever hours we like, you are not serious are you? I wouldn’t mind betting that the vast majority of deputies work longer hours than most. Deputies who don’t put the hours in won’t be deputies for very long and will be drowned out by the protests of other deputies who they work with. They have to attend meetings at set times, often two, three or four meetings a day, they spend a huge amount of time reading all the papers for those meetings and preparing for States debates, the weekends mostly are spent dealing with parishioners problems, deputies will have a dozen letters or more to respond to in a week, some of those are easy to deal with by e-mail, others will need hard copies sent to those who don’t have computers. The Vale deputies spent a large part of yesterday morning at a parochial surgery talking to parishioners. Phil you clearly have no idea what is involved in being an elected member of the States of Guernsey.
As for holidays, I get no more holidays than many other people doing ordinary jobs, as a Minister you are never on holiday, as you always stay in touch with the department you have responsibility for no matter where you are. You have to chair your own board meetings, in my case that is Housing, attend Policy Council meetings, joint meetings between other departments, as well as giving talks to organisations and schools and attending evening presentations. And as I said, I spend many hours reading all the papers for these meetings. As for your last comment perhaps you can tell me which trough you are referring too?
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Martino.
Alderney has 2,400 residents, which gives a 25-1 ratio = 2 representatives to the nearest whole number. I believe it is usual to round upwards in such cases.
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Dave Jones
I believe you 100% about your weekly workload
That makes it all the more worrying that the CM appears to have so much spare time to travel the world helping his friends at Concept
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Dave
Just to clarify the self-employed issue, do you agree with the Social Security department’s classification or not? Deputies are the ONLY class of “workers” who are treated this way i.e. self-employed but receive a guaranteed salary and pension benefits etc. If I’m wrong on that score please feel free to correct me.
Wow, with that workload it’s incredible how some deputies manage to fit in their FULL TIME jobs don’t you think? I do not doubt that you spend more hours than most carrying out your duties, do you think that if you were a deputy without ministerial responsibility you’d be able to fit in a full time job as well?
The trough I’m referring to is of course full of taxpayer’s cash. Being dipped in to (to some extent) by part time deputies and also paying for pension benefits for “self-employed” people.
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So Martino – on your figures Alderney should have one and a half representatives on The States and not two. This extra half a representative you regard as being a ‘gross over representation’.
So you’d happily reduce Alderney to one seat on The States which by your definition would therefore be a gross under representation.
What would you prefer?
They pay all their taxes to Guernsey which spends them as it sees fit. They have no way of knowing if they are paying more or less than their fair share of the Bailiwick’s revenue and have no mechanism by which to properly ascertain what is being spent on them.
But you begrudge them 2 seats out of 45 because you think it should be 1.5 seats and therefore should be rounded down?
Explain please…..
Rees – you’re nearer the truth.
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I’ve just caught up with this topic but talk about ‘muddied water’.
Forget all the pensions trivia [relevant but a distraction] and focus on the main issue, viz. Stuart Falla [according to the Press report] believes that “..GUERNSEY would be better off going back to the days when deputies were unpaid”.
How can anyone be comfortable with this outrageous statement?
Paul Le Page was spot on with the second comment posted, ditto Sean Mcmanus in later posts.
How ironic that Stuart Falla’s reactionary view is expressed in the midst of the inspirational ‘Arab Spring’ of democratic liberation.
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I get very depressed listening to to States debates. Although we have a handful of members who earn their salary, sadly we we also have far too many very noisy members who seem to be there on an ego trip playing to the general public with their endless and repetitive speeches. It could be argued that by paying states members, we are keeping the unemployment figures down, as some would never be able to get a proper job in the outside world. All candidates for election to the states should have a minimum standard of education, a proven and successful track record in business, good references, no criminal convictions (expired or otherwise),a satisfactory security check,and an IQ in double figures!
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Phil
I do not agree with Social Security’s clarification and have written to them to make that view known, their view is that we ARE self employed, regardless of the fact that we are paid by the States of Guernsey and we also contribute to the States pension scheme if we wish to. My view is that regardless of whether you’re a Minister or not, it would be impossible to do your job as an elected deputy properly if you had another full time job and in any event we are paid as deputies by the public to do the job we were elected to do.
As for the trough, The decision to pay deputies from taxpayers money came about as a result of an independent review looking at the job and the make up of the States, it took into consideration the fact that it was very difficult for ordinary working people who did not have private incomes to stand for the States and it was also considered at the time that it might attract more female members who would need an income to help with child care etc. The pension scheme has been available to states members for many years going right back to before States members were paid a salary and received a small attendance allowance.
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Look at my original post Hello and Rees. I’ll accept the word ‘gross’ was ott but the over-representation is still there, particularly when you consider Guernsey’s population must be 65,000 or more by now. The last census was 10 years ago so we just don’t know. How accurate is your 2,400 figure for Alderney for that matter?
Anyway, back to my original statement, you’ll see I wasn’t calling for the reduction to one Alderney rep now, straight away, but as part of a possibles slimming down of the Guernsey States of Deliberation down to 30 or 35 members. I’m sure you’ll both agree with me that under this circumstance it would indeed be a ‘gross’ over representation to have two Alderney ‘deputies’ – a bit like having two deputies to represent Guernsey’s smallest parish, Torteval. This is my final posting on this subject because it’s a side issue to the main subject of this thread.
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Dave
In that case Social Security are the ones in the wrong and they should be pushed to rectify the situation. Is the minister for SS in agreement with you on this issue do you know? We also agree on deputies having other full time jobs, it just doesn’t stack up that they can dedicate sufficient time to their political business if they are committed to 35 or 40 hours a week elsewhere.
Just to clarify, I have no issue whatsoever with deputies being paid (in fact I think they ought to be paid a lot more than they currently are, thereby attracting more, and maybe better, candidates). What does annoy me is that some deputies (i.e. those with full time jobs, significant personal business interests etc) are getting paid the same as those without, which in my view is wrong. Also I believe that deputies ought to be classed as employed and have to work set hours, meaning that if they want to pursue personal business interests they do so in their own time. At the moment some of them have the best of both worlds, hence the nose in the trough comment.
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Hold on. Can’t we just have three deputies? One for the North, one for the South, and on for the inbred?
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Phil – I agree with you that, if anything, the salary level should increase. I also think the electorate is entitled to know they are getting value for money.
If we raise the pay to a high level there is no excuse for Deputies to engage in other paid work.
Might I therefore suggest an idea for discussion:
- Increase the salary to a high level, say, £80,000 p.a.
- Make is an obligation for States members to declare all income from paid employ to an independent body.
- Deduct that amount from their States salary.
What do you think?
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Dave Jones,
You say any changes to the pension scheme can’t be retrospective, but that is exactly what Hutton recommended. He said ALL public sector workers should be moved off their final salary (defined benefit) scheme and on to a career average earnings scheme.
He did not say it should only be new entrants put on a careers average earning scheme, he said it should be EVERYONE regardless of how long they’ve worked in the public sector.
So if the UK adopted this approach (and George Osborne said the government supported the recommendations) are you saying Guernsey should not?
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I say £5000 a year, to cover “all expenses” Those who wish to stand should do so as a duty not as a career !
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Paul Le Page
On the face of it your proposals are not without their attractions.
Of course, some have stated their opposition to full-time Deputies.
Others would wish to reduce the number of Deputies. (I am not fundamentally opposed to a reduction provided that “backbenchers” could outvote postholders.)
Many would shrink from the level of remuneration you propose but if it were offset against alternative earnings you might have an interesting notion to develop.
Mr (Stuart) Falla’s initial comments will be seen in the light of the announced review. I assume that anyone is free to submit comments to the review team. Doubtless you will take advantage of such an opportunity.
Finally, I will not resile fron an agenda which favours more reflective practitioners in an attempt to secure improvements in our governance processes by raising the quality of our elected representatives, myself included.
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Gsyforever
I say Guernsey can do whatever it pleases on this issue.
I am aware what the Hutton report says but making any changes retrospective is something I would need a lot more convincing was fair and equitable for those who joined the civil service under one set of rules and then had the rules changed some way down the road.
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As an island community of 65,000 or so why are some hell bent in supplying any body paid by the states ( deputies included) the same rates or higher than those in Central UK government? For instance the new Finance Director for Health comes from the top job at Hants County Council, has he come for a salary drop? In an island full of locally born accountants was there no local applicants?
No matter what Deputy Jones says it is not a 7 day a week job as clearly shown by his peers, because he says he works longer hours does that mean he is doing the job any better? A time management course might be in order.
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By paying States members a salary, you inevitably attract career politcians, the majority of which are to the left of the political spectrum.
These people often have their own agenda, which is not necessarily in the best interests of the Island as a whole.
We are going to find ourselves on the road to a highly taxed, big spending, and wasteful socialist state, which will seriously undermine the prosperity and quality of life of all of us in the long term.
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Paul
The independent pay review body assesses the job of a States Deputy and then makes recommendations on remuneration accordingly. Also if you think it is only a part time or five day week job, then stand for one of the vacant seats at the next election and find out for yourself.
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Dave Jones – “making any changes retrospective is something I would need a lot more convincing was fair and equitable for those who joined the civil service under one set of rules and then had the rules changed some way down the road.”
HAHAHAHAHA! Good one!
So once again it’s different rules for civil servants/ States Members?
When I started work my States Insurance contributions were far less than they are now and I was supposed to get my pension at 65.
So how come the rules can be changed for the rest of the working population but not for you guys?
Anybody in our Government that is actually working for us (not to line their own pockets) should be doing everything in their power to reduce the huge salary and pension liabilities that we are currently lumbered with. Most of the private sector have abandoned final salary pensions so why am I still paying for yours?
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Of course Deputies should not be paid.
But this must not stop anyone from standing for and becoming a Deputy. For an employed person, the employer should be required to continue to pay the employee with the States reimbursing the employer. For those not working, they have nothing to lose.
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Deputy Jones
That old chestnut about if you can do better, clearly we cannot all give up our careers or integrate the monthly meetings of a states member. But I can contribute to this forum. I am sure with your time on here and talking and reading Guernsey politics that your days are quite full. However direct work for the benefit of Guernsey does not consume 7 days a week if it does why is it different for other deputies some arguably with greater responsibilities than yours.
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eggybread – your much lower contributions (if you were a married man) could also have covered a wife’s contribution, and provided her with a widow’s pension for life, should you have died.
The rules have indeed changed for the public at large, but let’s not forget that civil servants and deputies are members of that public too. They are also touched by those particular changes, though the CS as employees only have to pay half their stamp.
Does the CS pension also provide for a spouse’s pension on death? It used to, and I strongly suspect it still does.
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good plan Colin, although it would mean that most deputies would be paid more than they are now and the bill for the States would increase. Apart from that, it is an excellent idea.
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This is a cheap shot from the millionaire Stuart Falla. I think there is a good case for paying deputies a bit more than what they get now, especially if there is going to be a cull of the current numbers. The salaries currently on offer to be a Member of the States are pretty modest when compared with the money on offer in the professions. It is only the omnipresent anti-States rhetoric, stoked up by the finance industry, the Press and the other media, that is leading so many into arguing for a return to the days when the job of a deputy was done, in effect, pro bono. That would be a retrograde step. It would mean that the States would again become the preserve of the rich and well-connected; a chamber of business types and millionaires. Such a government would be shamelessly pro-market and anti-public sector; this would upset the balance of island life and the spirit of community cohesion that is currently manitained with a relatively mixed chamber. Non-payment of deputies would be inconsistent with democracy if vast swathes of the island were practically unable to stand for the island’s parliament through a lack of means; it would also mean that there was very little empathy once again between the government and the governed. How many people high up in the worlds of finance, the law, accountancy etc know what it is really like to work in the public sector, or to struggle on the minimum wage, or to have to subsist on the States pension or to survive on supplementary benefit?
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Paul
I did not say “if you can do better” what I said was that if you want to find out the workload of an elected deputy, then stand for election and see for yourself. Also If other deputies can cram everything they need to do into 5 days then good for them but I haven’t met many of them. For myself I am very hands on and the work I put in with my board and Housing staff is reflected in the success we have had as a department, however the phone doesn’t stop ringing on the weekends, that goes with the job and in my view that’s how it should be, so we will have to agree to disagree.
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An ‘A+’ for your post Chris
Would have been an ‘A star’ if you had mentioned island wide voting
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Personally I think the salary is pitched about right. It does allow younger blood to weigh up their options knowing that they have a fixed income for a 4 year period.
On the downside of course it’s reasonably clear that one Deputy has used it as a part time-job topper and contribution being very little ~ hopefully the Castel Parish will sort that out at the next election.
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@ Paul Le Page
Spot on as usual Paul.
It’s always a pleasure to read your pragmatic opinions
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Why stop at £80,000? Let’s face it if this was the salary on offer then I believe every man and his dog would be standing at the next election! Bring in Island wide voting, with no more than 30 seats available in total, and every voter allowed up to seven votes, which could be used all on one candidate or spread over two or more candidates upto a maximum of seven,this would ensure a truer figure of those selected to represent us, with those receiving the highest number chosen going on to be appointed as ministers
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Chris – a vast over-simplification.
Stuart’s proposals wouldn’t prevent ordinary, retired, working class people from standing; it wouldn’t prevent (for instance) union or employer-sponsored candidates, part-time workers, the self-employed or many others. Many public sector workers are able to retire in their fifties – often the age at which people stand for election for the first time.
The problem as I see it is the salaried deputies pumping up their own importance, and spinning out a voluntary, public service, part-time vocation into something it was never meant to be – a pensioned career. Part of that trend is our fault – and Dave Jones may agree with this – in our being too ready to criticise. So they spend a lot of time being careful not to be seen to be doing anything we don’t like. Maybe that puts “ordinary” people off standing, there is a perceived input of many many hard hours, whether needed or not.
Not paying would attract those that didn’t waste time on pointless speeches and endless electioneering.
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A.J.
That’s a new concept (No pun intended Mr CM)
One man seven votes !
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Just an observation, but your salary is often reflective of the level of responsibility entrusted to you within a role, hence why doctors and managing directors often have decent salaries. Deputies have a significant amount of responsibility on their shoulders as well as unavoidably having to be in the public eye. I would say a decent salary is well deserved.
In regards to the hours working, it’s often the case (and evidence-based) that those who work overtime often don’t exceed the amount of work of those who work standard hours.
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Toto
How would you determine the level of responsibility entrusted to any given political role? Do you have particular comparators in mind?
Secondly, how would you assess the quality of any indivudual politician? Are you content that the existng method, i.e. once every 4 years for those who opt to stand for re-election, is sufficient in a modern democracy?
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