‘Golden’ pension is part of our pay
Monday 18th April 2011, 2:30PM BST.
MOST States members appear to be happy with a pension that is 80% funded by taxpayer contributions, a Guernsey Press survey has revealed.
But more than a quarter of deputies acknowledged that the States Members’ Pension Scheme was unfair and should be changed.
All 45 Guernsey-based deputies received a set of nine questions from this newspaper relating to the fairness and appropriateness of their pension arrangements, widely regarded as gold-plated because most of the risk for providing it is left with the taxpayer.
Of the 38 who responded, only 12 were definitive in their criticism of it. A further four deputies, while not fully criticising the scheme, appear to have acknowledged that it should change.
- Click here to see the full responses by those deputies who replied.
- To read Guernsey Press stories in full click here for subscription details. Individual editions are now available online.
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You will notice that many of the Policy Council replies mention that their pay and pension arrangements were were as a result of an independent panel.
I am reliably informed ( and I stand to be corrected)that in fact the Policy Council picked the Independent Panel, so with the majority of them quite happy with the current arrangement of the taxpayer paying approx 25% towards their pensions, and having picked the panel.
I would hardly call that independent.
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Dave Jones said on this forum that he is self employed, and is not employed by the states. Clearly this is not the case. If you are self employed then you take care of your own pension arrangements usually in a private scheme. If you are employed you will usually get a pension from your employer,but not usually gold plated. So if Dave Jones is self employed, then he should be taking care of his own pension arrangements no? And not taking money from the Guernsey States who are NOT his employers.
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For the record I dont know which way Dave voted in the survey. If he voted against the fairness, and feels it is unfair, then I apologise in advance. Then again, I dont know for what reasons it was chosen to be unfair.
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So the states can decide what they get paid and if they are to have a vote to say whether or not they should change it, it’s them who vote?
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Mark Dorey makes an interesting point in his response tp the questions on pension benefits for Deputies. He said “I argued in committee and, if I recall correctly, in the States that I thought it was too generous and it should be based on 1/60, the normal rate for most companies, and not 1/45 of pay”
I would suggest that Deputies receive the same as teachers 1/80 which is even less generous that the more usual 1/60.
There is no justification for the ultra generous 1/45.
Read more: http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2011/04/18/deputies-on-pensions/19/#ixzz1JwxVaRNw
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I suspect that these arrangements were cobbled together during the time of plenty when the States were awash with cash
Time now to revisit this over generous deal
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Mark
I couldn’t agree more. DJ is showing himself to be just as arrogant as the rest of the policy council, he won’t even confirm whether his Declaration of Interests form is correct. Either his shareholding in a property company doesn’t need to be declared (if it’s less than 10%) or it has been omitted from his Declaration. Come on Dave, which is it?
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Below is Dave Jones comments when asked to complete the questionnaire on Deputies pensions…
“I have nothing further to add to the comments I have already made on the subject and if you put no comment I will put that right on the Sunday phone in.”
Upon being questioned by the Guernsey Press about which comments he was referring to, Deputy Jones then sent the following comments:
“I joined in my second term as I was invited to join by letter as all successful candidates were on becoming re-elected. The pension scheme was set up by an independent review panel and is an integral part of the remuneration package for States members. Should the independent panel decide to change the scheme, then I will look at any proposals and vote on the package as a whole”.
hmmm…says it all really doesn’t it?
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Brenard Flouquet says it all and I quote “I cannot say (if it is fair) as I have no understanding of pension schemes”
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mike
BF’s quote would have made even more sense if you replace the words “pension schemes” with “anything much at all really”.
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Having read the Guernsey Press and comments from States Members, I am appalled at their collective thinking. With few exceptions, their reasoning is the same. “Take what you can get whilst you can”
This way of thinking is what is driving the Guernsey infrastructure into collapse.
What is just as surpring is a Deputy openly admitting he knows nothing about pensions! Just enough to take what he can get though.
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BF doesn`t need to understand them(or claim not to) he`s on the receiving end but i wonder if he would bother to try and understand if he was paying out?.
He didn`t know much about any waste stratergy either but that didn`t stop him trying to sell us an Incinerator that we didn`t need.
What a cop-out of an answer if i ever heard one.
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Being on a pension that is not enough to live on is difficult, but having to pay taxes to support your high income pension is ridiculous!
It should NOT be a part of your pay. You earn more than a lot of people do while you are working and should get the same pension as everyone else!!
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The golden pension is ment as a sweetner to the polititans, to continue their work as system appologists, the system will never let the general pop. change the ascension of wealth.
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…and all this from the same people who decided widows didn’t deserve a pension any more (whereas, of course, they do, and a better one at that).
interesting, not as many comments on here as you would think.
Perhaps, like I, people are entirely disgusted but sadly unsurprised by the arrogant sense of entitlement this group of retired Tetley tea monkeys that are wrecking our island and p***ing our money up the wall have, and yet still unable to find words to express how much….
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Outrageous these pensions need to be withdrawn NOW!
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Widows do not ‘deserve’ any special pension rights Scarlett. It’s a complete and utter myth that their late husbands ‘paid’ for them to have a pension before the age of 65 or later. Their late husbands paid no more than you or I into the pension fund and we won’t get anything at least until the age of 65. As a self employed person I’m paying a lot more in fact and I resent the fact that that fool Paint and 13 others are trying to get a special arrangements in place to subsidise the non working lifestyles of these ‘ladies of leisure’. If they are fit and able and under the age of 65 they should work for a living like the rest of us. Also, why no widowers’ pension? Utterly sexist and discriminatory.
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Martino. I’m self employed as well, and live pretty frugally, but it doesn’t change my opinion on either, the system is futu and entirely unfair.
Off your point slightly, but relative, A dear old friend of mine lost her self employed hubbie when he was 66, she draws a small pension based on the contributions that her part time job/full time mum career gave her, and sees b8gger all of the huge contributions he’d paid in as such (working 7 days a week since the age of 15), as it all just went back in the ‘pot’… to pay what, exactly?
Work shy teens making a career of being mothers, subsidising other’s rents….then on top of that, we hear that these muppets have decided they DO ‘deserve’ to fill up their pockets whilst she struggles to pay her own bills (without a word of complaint, I hasten to add).
Like I said. FUTU.
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Hi Scarlett, I would not disagree with your assessment of the state of the system – it is futu. It’s futu and nobody’s trying to fix it because too many of our politicians pick up on the emotive little vote winners, like widows’ pensions, but fail to do anything to address the big underlying problems.
I also agree with you about the deputies coining it with their pensions and about the work shy teens who are working the system while others struggle.
My gripe in this instance is with the work shy widows under 65 who are driving this little campaign. If a bereaved person of either gender is young and fit enough to work then that person should fend for himself or herself without any help from the state. I take it your friend is over the current pension age of 65, in which case I think she should be getting some help from the system.
Incidentally, the pension system everywhere is and has always been a lottery. You can work until the eve of your 65th birthday, drop down dead and not get any return from your contributions or you can carry on until 100 or more. That’s just the way life goes I’m afraid.
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@Martino
What makes you think widows are ladies of leisure? Have you any idea what it’s like to not only suddenly lose your husband but to also have to struggle on only one income? I speak from experience. The experience of a close family member being suddenly widowed at a young age with two children to bring up. Having worked hard all her adult life she most certainly was not and is not a lady of leisure. Nor a workshy widow for that matter.
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CheesedOff – but if she had passed away leaving her husband with the two children, what would have happened? He would not have a widowers pension and would have had to struggle on a single income.
Supporting people in genuine need is off course necessary, but it is bizarre to provide a pension to people of working age purely based upon the fact that they are female and have lost a husband.
The whole idea assumes that the women have been dependent on their husbands all along. That no longer reflects modern society.
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That was the point I was trying to make Terry, but in a less diplomatic way than you. Bizarre is the right word to describe this crazy, ill-conceived requete of Deputy Paint’s.
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Whilst I agree with part of what you are saying, in that the younger widow should, after a while be able to start supporting herself, there are people out there approaching their 60′s or in their early 60′s from an era where the husband supported his wife during his lifetime. I feel there is a case still for individual needs and circumstances to be taken into consideration. I would not expect a widow of say 60, supported by her husband all her life, who had paid his full states insurance contributions, to be told to go and find a job after the end of Social insurance initial payment.
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Glad you see some of the nonsense of what is being proposed Gary and I’m glad you mentioned the ‘era when the husband supported his wife during his lifetime’. This era, as you acknowledge, is no more, and if there are widows under 65 who cannot work there are other existing benefits (unemployment, invalidity, supplementary) already in place to meet their needs.
Also, consider the fact that the old widows pension was replaced for very good reason five years ago. In that time all the island’s widows will have adjusted to the change in the system and to suggest going back to the old system is ridiculous.
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I take it your not quite out of nappies yet Martino! I am a widow who goes to work, looks after my house and garden and my elderly parents get in the real world!
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I have been reading with interest the comments on Widows Pensions. Some of you are jumping to conclusions and assumptions about what the Widows Pension Requete is all about.
Have you bothered to phone any of the deputies who have signed up for the requete to find out what it is all about?
No, I thought not!!
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Get a life Martino!
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Anne, if I can borrow the PM’s line, do calm down dear… I don’t think I was getting at people like you, who go to work and do not seek special benefits in the form of a widow’s pension.
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Martino dear, you are getting at people like me because yes i do go out to work but would still seek the benefits in the form of a widow`s pension! It cost the same to heat the house whether there is one or two people living in it and the rest of the bills and is anyone going to offer to paint my house this year, don`t think so. My hubby used to take 2 weeks off work to do that. It`s bad enough coping with losing a loved one without worrying about normal day to day things, like the saying goes, you don`t know unless it happens to you1!
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Out of interest Anne, do you think widows should be entitled to a pension before they reach the age of 65 or from the age of 65 onwards (or whatever the general retirement age is set at in the future)?
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Anne
You may think its fair that you get the widows pension but what about the guys who may find theirselves in the same situation as you?.
If it were equal for both men and women i`m sure Martino would see that as equality?.
So can we have equal rights or do you think just the women should be entitled to it?.
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bcb
Yes it should be for men as well, and if you phoned any of the Deputies who have signed for this change they would explain more about it.
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