Deputies are well meaning, but too weak
Tuesday 19th April 2011, 2:29PM BST.
THE States needs more people with vision who are prepared to make tough decisions and stand up for the Guernsey way of life, according to former deputy Peter Ferbrache.
He spoke at yesterday’s Chamber of Commerce lunch and put forward his views on the type of deputy Guernsey would need in the future.
In a very frank speech, Advocate Ferbrache (pictured) said he believed current deputies were honest and well meaning, but they did not deserve their current pay and pension package.
‘It is not good enough to be a well-intentioned idiot. I think they are well-intentioned people, but I do not think there are enough people in the States at the moment to make the necessary hard judgements that need to be made.’
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Peter Ferbrache for Chief Minister
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Given his forthright comments I presume Mr Ferbrache will be standing next year?
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Not worth their pay? and that comeing from an advocate.
Another one speaking from the side lines, its so much easier than actually doing something about it.
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Paul
No, he says 2016, shame really
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I doubt that very much Mr P Le Page
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Ray
I will second that.
Stewart Falla would equally be suited to the title.
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a man who knows what he is talking about
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It says in the Paper that Mr Ferbrache may stand in 2016, not in 2012. He does however suggest that some of his fellow Advocates from his Law Firm might want to stand. In addition, he suggests that Dave Jones should be CM. I question the wisdom of the latter statement; maybe it was said
tongue in cheek…
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So multi millionaire Peter Ferbrache recommends a reduction in deputies’ pay, similar to what multi millionaire Stuart Falla said recently. He also recommends multi millionaires (and colleagues) Peter Harwood and Roger Perrot.
Bearing in mind his recommendation that Dave Jones would make a good Chief Minister, and his recent bleating in the Press about losing a considerable amount of money to one of Guernsey’s dodgiest businessmen of recent times, Howard Holland, I think that we ought to think twice before paying too much attention to his comments.
For some unknown reason some people seem to afford PF almost God-like status over here, why that is I don’t know. Having seen him in action both professionally and socially, I fail to see what the big fuss is about. He’s a good advocate and quite a normal person who makes the same mistakes as a lot of other people, nothing more nothing less in my opinion.
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I am amazed that someone, supposedly learned, has been quoted in Tuesday 19th April’s Press spouting so much drivel as a guest speaker at the Chamber of Commerce lunch. My goodness – another lawyer ‘advocating’ a Government dominated and full of Lawyers (hardly surprising), with some few ‘others’ involved (a ‘liberal’ number that is). Where is the parity or balance in that? Would we not then have a Government full of law makers and those involved in advocacy rather than those with other skill sets and some degree of common sense and a sense of ‘justice’ and ‘equality’. Oh, and I am not advocating storming the Bastille (Spring after all).
My question to Advocate Ferbrache is; would he welcome some of his former business partners into the States with him when he runs for President in 2016?
Advocate Ferbrache may be a little closer to actual fact (amazingly, content considered) in stating Chief Minister Trott and Deputy Chief Minister Flouquet are not his choice or are indeed not ideal or clipped ambassadors for Guernsey on the world stage, gaffs in the past proving this. However, what they did was to stand to be elected, were elected democratically and stuck with it. They have done this despite others throwing their teddy out of the pram and resigning or not standing for re-election to the States.
Advocate Ferbrache ends his ill thought out summary of his view of our future Government by stating they (Deputy’s) should be paid no more than £20K per year. This is no doubt justified in his mind, that after he himself, Advocates Harwood and Perrot (plus other invited ‘special ones’) have made sufficient money through a learned career, they should then be able to retire without need of a survivable salary, and Govern thereafter! We would then have a much cheaper leaner system based on retired professionals, law, lodge and old school tie. My question would then be; would this form of Government not be an extension of a boys club and drag Guernsey further into the bureaucratic depths of inaction and risk averseness?
It’s all about balance; we have to have a balanced hard working (not semi retired or privileged) group of freely elected people who will represent their electorate and not themselves, or their peers. We/ you will also have to pay these fairly elected people a decent salary to ensure that we don’t lose the good ones because they can’t exist on a pittance. I’ll agree with one thing Advocate Ferbrache managed to mention, the number of Deputies needs to be reduced, as at present there are a good number who are conspicuous by their lack of effort or application. Guernsey politics and Government should never be a retirement scheme.
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Phil
Why have you got an attitude toward those with money?
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Ben – I agree with every word that you say.
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Excellent, Ben, excellent. A salary of £20k p.a. to govern is a joke – and given the close proximity of these comments to Stuart Falla’s similar rhetoric, one does wonder whether they are conspiring to transform the States into a pseudo-aristocratic club full of wealthy semi-retired lawyers and other old boys network types.
I don’t discount them though – I’m sure they are very successful people – and all credit to them – and I would be happy to see some of their number in the States. It takes more than a shrewd mind and a crock o’ gold to lead the island though. A sense of justice, fairness and integrity are far greater assets – as well as a House that is capable of representing all sections of society, not just the privileged classes.
We must ensure a system of remuneration is in place that enables every islander the opportunity to stand for office – in the knowledge they can provide for themselves on that wage alone if elected.
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Welcome to the new Guernsey plutarchy!
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well lets hope next year we have some serious hard working nominations – agree with your comments Paul, common sense approach. Balance being everything. I have a few mates who are lawyers and so I am certainly not anti lawyer, jusy anti idiot statements by lawyers.
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Paul
I don’t know what “attitude” you’re referring to.
My objection to PF’s comments is that it’s all very well advocating a £20k deputies’ salary when you have no need for income, for someone who would depend on a deputy’s salary to live on it’s an altogether different matter.
You may relish the thought of being a serf, I’m afraid that I don’t share your views.
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Howard Holland for Chief Minister
Let’s allow Howard to bring all his mates from Puerto Banus to form a government, at least that way we would know where we stand. A full movement of the Costa del Crime to Guernsey, that’s what I want.
I am sick of do gooders who critisize, put theselves first, always know better, look after their personal fortunes at the cost of the local people and expect the simple locals to just sit in the corner and nod. Some States members and prominent officials have made themselves very wealthy over the years and only pop up when they see an opportunity to personally gain. Airports, harbours, road crossings, well enough is enough, in my opinion it is time to get the real conmen to sort you all out
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Thanks for posting Ben – you are spot on! Government should be representative of the people it governs. A rich old-cronies club is the very last thing we need. these people are out of touch with the day-to-day reality of life for most people.
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I think the issue has become a little distorted and rather than looking at what wage deputies require perhaps the question should be is it really a full time job? Deputies are not (whatever they may think) the equivalent of MPs but more akin to members of local or city councils. “Ministerial” positions may justify a wage as these are posts which doutbless take up a lot of time but surely not the regular duties of a Deputy? Any council member in England gives up an awful lot of their free time to their constituents and does not expect a wage and their attendance at meetings is provided for by allowances. The council system hasn’t collapsed due to lack of interest nor is it full (in my own experience) of the old boy’s rich club so arguments of exclusivity don’t cut it. Bearing in mind how many Deputies we have for our population I’ve yet to see a convining argument as to why a payment of an allowance rather than wage would prove harmful to our very special form of democracy here. As an alternative perhaps the way to silence critics who believe that Deputies see the job as an easy means of employment is to move States sittings to evenings/weekends and divert the current wage to fund the limited civil service overtime that would be required instead?
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A Bod – have to agree. I would think between four to six hours a week on average was perfectly adequate for a deputy to discharge their duties.
It is not a job, full time or otherwise – it’s a vocation, a public service and an honour to be elected. It will be the full-time “career” politicians making most noise and wasting everyone else’s time.
It was quite something to read the comments many of them made on the deputies’ pensions, and their total ignorance on how it is funded -astounding. They know very little about their own pay – what do they know about anything else? Worthless, many of them.
Pay peanuts and get monkeys, maybe. Put out a twelve course banquet and get monkeys, ants, wasps and all manner of unwanted guests.
Pay nothing and get those that genuinely want to serve for the greater good.
That does not prevent the “ordinary” working man from becoming a deputy – the self-employed, retired.
The states could sit in the evenings, which would allow most deputies to hold down full time trades or careers – that would be better than paying deputies, and would prevent very few, if any, from serving.
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Peter Ferbrache is an elderly member of the community who clearly has not used his ‘advice’ when running his own business affairs.
I shudder to think what would happen if his ‘puppet’ Dave Jones was Chief Minister. Especially after Mr Jones’ coy responses to having having his own nose deeply entrenched in the golden pension pot.
We need younger Deputies, such as Matt Fallaize, to take the Island forward and get rid of the same-old-same-old that have plagued us for so long.
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Bob
4-6 hours per week for a Deputy to do their duty?
Let’s separate the 4 hours into one hour segments then. So that’s (a) one hour to read all the documents they have to get through; (b) one hour to get themselves fully informed on all the issues affecting the island; (b) one hour to answer telephone calls and letters from the public and (d) one hour to debate the issues. To make it six hours let’s just add 30 minutes to each.
Can’t you see how laughable that is? If you can’t please don’t stand for a Deputy. Dave Jones wrote an excellent piece on this forum earlier this year about the work he does as a Deputy. I don’t know what your opinion on him is but there is no doubt he puts considerable dedication and effort into the role – and this particular post was extremely informative.
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@A Bod & Bod, could not agree more. I see no reason why deputies cannot sit during evenings, or at weekends, thereby allowing those that need to earn a living, to take or increase the hours some work during the day in “gainful” employment, thereby easing the tax payers’ current obligation to not only pay them a salary and, in most cases, it seems a hefty pension too.
Unless Dave Jones is again away at his house in France, I suspect he will shortly come steaming in with yet more aggressive rhetoric. That bit about burning the candle at both ends, etc.
I stand firm on my opinion, since judging by all the apparent transparency, (when it suits) none of our deputies can hold up their hands and say that they do a full week’s work, lots of self generated procrastination, yes, but to the magority of us this isn’t honest work.
Deputies are of course entitled to free evenings and weekends, just like most of us are and, get. Two or three evenings a week is what most us take out from family and other responsibilites to pursue our “interests”, if deputies are really up and out there to “serve the community”,they should be able to fit that in as well.
There was one deputy, Kevin Prevel, who worked I think for GEP prior to being elected, he chose to start work at 6am and work through until early afternoon, and some days (only 2/3 days a month, I remind everyone) when the States were sitting, even earlier.
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Town Dweller
I very much doubt D Jones is anyones puppet and i dont know what makes you think he is.
One of the biggest improvements i have seen over here is social houseing and that has to count for something?.
Stiletto
How many times does he go to France every year then? and does he take time off work to do so? i only ask because you seem to put it in such a way that he away to often when he should be here carrying out his duties?.
If thats not the case whats it got to do with you?.
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Hang on, Dave Jones (the Europhobe) has got a house in France?
Maybe he has shares in a property company over there? No need to declare it in his Declaration of Interests form though.
Still waiting for your response on Cougar Dave?
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Town Dweller.
I think you are seriously mistaken in your views about Peter Ferbrache and Dave Jones. Peter Ferbrache has been part of an extremely well run business i.e. Ozannes. Where he went wrong was to trust a man like Howard Holland. Ferbrache had nothing to do with the running of Holland’s restaurants – he merely invested in them and then found to his cost that he had been fleeced. Bear in mind when Ferbrache put money into those businesses they were very successful and he clearly had a view to profitting from his investments.
The idea that Dave Jones is Ferbrache’s puppet is laughable. Whatever one may think about Jones he is clearly his own man.
If Ferbrache stands in the Castel he will get my vote. I want my representatives to have brains, intelligence and to stand up for Guernsey people – and whether you like him or not he has all of those qualities.
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If you want representatives who stand “for the people”, how about asking those “citizens” who hang around outside the Town Church smoking their benefits to take a stand? They seem to represent a large proportion of the Guernsey population – get what they can from the States without putting themselves out at all!
Why shouldn’t Dave Jones have a second home if he wants one? He has probably bought it with his hard earned money – oh I forgot!!! The Guernsey way is to go on benefits and get a free house without doing anything for it. That’s right isn’t it? or at least that’s what it looks like to me.
It occurs to me that there are a lot of people out there with a huge bunch of sour grapes (lets hope they didn’t buy them from Waitrose otherwise that might make the press too…..) who don’t like other people to have money – but they don’t mind that there is a huge tranche of leeches (like the unlucky souls without any sort of aspirations who hang around Town all day) who take what they want from you, the Tax papyer…. it makes no sense.
I think Peter Ferbrache is far too old now to make any useful contribution to the States; get some youngsters in by all means – but make sure they have some life experience and a useful CV behind them first.
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Sarnia Expat
You’re talking nonsense, Guernsey has a tiny problem as regards benefits claimants.
That’s a fact, I wish it was even smaller as I begrudge paying my Social Security each month only to see it used by some people who don’t deserve it, but our problem is nothing like the UK’s.
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What we need at the next election are candidates who are, intellegent,honest,trustworthy,willing to “serve,” be it for £5,000 a year or £50,000 with an understanding for life’s requirements,for the people of Guernsey. Unfortunately many “young” people do not possess the most important Quality of all,(having not lived on this earth long enough) and that,is wisdom!
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First of all my thanks to bcb, mac, Paul le Page, Sarnia expat and all those who have shown that they have a far greater understanding of what’s involved in being a working deputy. As for Stilleto I can hold my hands up and say I most certainly do a full weeks work.
Secondly, I had absolutely no idea that Advocate Ferbrache would make the comments he did at the Chamber lunch and although it is very flattering to be mentioned, I am totally unsuited to the job of Chief Minister, it takes someone with a huge amount of treasury experience and the stamina to put in the hours talking to many of our critics who wish to make life difficult on a daily basis mostly on the financial front. It also requires extensive diplomacy skills, of which sadly I have very few and my views on the EU and some of the other bodies we are forced to deal with are well known and I simply cannot disguise them. So it is not a job I would want, nor one I would ever apply for, you will all be relieved to here that I am sure. Also Advocate Ferbrache and I have had several full and frank exchanges of views on several different occasions, one of them a very public spat at an IOD conference some time ago, so I can assure you I am not anyone’s puppet.
The house we have in France belongs to my wife and we had it nearly two years before I was elected as a deputy, the fact that I am very Erosceptic fits in very nicely with France because the French at least have the courage to defy many of the EU rules, I love it.
The pension scheme is the one I joined, it is not designed by the States it is what the independent panel decided was to be part of the States members remuneration package and at the end of it I will get £9. 60 odd for every year served. I was not being “coy” as I have been accused; I answered the question openly and honestly. Now you may not like my answer but then in 12 months time some of you will get the chance to kick me out making you views very clear at that point. Had we had island wide voting which is what we should have had, you would have all had the same chance.
Given some of the comments on this blog I have put together a job description for a serving Deputy based on some of those comments.
Job description for elected Deputy.
Walk the streets for a couple of weeks meeting the people.
Should you be elected, you will be required to work for nothing as it is only part time and you must have no other interests.
You must have all your meetings in the evenings and you must work at another job during the day so as not to be a burden to the taxpayer.
You must be prepared to provide a full office service to the public with all its associated costs free of charge.
You will be required to cram your weekly work load into 4-6 hours per week.
You will be required to sell any family homes you have abroad.
You must not take anytime off at all without notifying everyone on the GP forum.
You must be available 24 hours a day and 7 days a week, in order that you can be ridiculed at our convenience.
You must be prepared to solve all the islands problems and if you can’t then you will clearly be labled as useless.
You must be expected to be ridiculed, insulted and accept that you are worthless, dim-witted, a crook, and a trough feeder, for the duration of your term of office.
You must never get annoyed or defend yourself publicly, as that will be taken as a sign of arrogance.
You must only vote the way we tell you.
You must be prepared to vote for any service asked for by the public at whatever the cost.
You must vote to keep costs down.
You must not vote to put up any taxes or charges.
You must take on the personal problems of every individual who contacts you, transferring the responsibility for their lives to the States.
You must not join any pension scheme put forward by any independent panel, even if it is part of your remuneration and you are invited to do so.
After four years we reserve the right to blame you personaly for everything.
All applicants for the job of Deputy must submit their names for vetting to certain contributors to the GP forum who will determine their worth.
Note
Only independently wealthy people need bother to apply.
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Fantastic post Deputy Jones, well done for dealing with all the muppets on this forum that have nothing better to do than slag the States off, maybe some of them will stand at the next election so we can see what a wonderful job they would do!
As I don’t need to tell you our States is far from perfect but at least some members will tell it like it is, for this you will get my vote!
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Kevin
These are people who hide behind Pseudonyms, They don’t even have the courage to tell the forum who they are and I doubt very much if any of them would ever have the courage to stand for public office.
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Dave
Still no answer on the Declaration of Interests question then? Surely it’s a very simple one to answer, your form is either wrong or right, which one is it?
Going by your job description only an idiot would choose to apply. You’re standing again aren’t you……….
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In my humble opinion, as taken by some with far greater knowledge than I have regarding politicians, the answer I got was this,
What do you all think?
Politicians and babies nappies have something in common:
They should be changed regularly, and for the same reason.
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Call me crazy, but I like Dave Jones, granted he doesn’t ever want to be chief minister but he’d be a heck of a lot better than the clown currently in charge.
From these forums, he always seems very passionate when defending soemthing or with his views and doesn’t ever seem to give wishy washy answers or do what some of the others do and give answers very carefully crafted so as not to actually clearly answer questions/accusations
He also seems to have a good sense of humour and lets face it – that always helps! Who cares if he has a house in France, there are quite a lot of people here that do, a lot of which are not particularly wealthy.
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Dep Jones, a very admirable post. One that supports the role of the Deputy. Sorry to poor water on your fire but there are many other islanders in vocational occupations who also deserve a gold plated pension for the work and grief they get on behalf of the Island.
Prison Officers, teachers, nurses, cops, social workers etc. For exactly the same commitment as you they only receive what I believe is a 1/80th or 1/60th pension.
As ex forces how many night shifts have you performed on Christmas day, New Years Eve etc? How many of your children’s birthdays have you missed as you have been working?
Had your car trashed or been at the school gates getting shouted at by irate parents? Been verbally abused while shopping with your family?
Tried to dress a wound while getting vicious bile directed at you? All this while only getting a 1/80th pension. Many States workers can give equally admirable reasons for increasing their pensions along the lines of Deputies.
I have no gripes with Deputies getting a pension on the lines of other States Workers, but at the moment you are in danger of killing the goose that has laid your very large golden egg.
Pensions will be an election issue and it will be interesting to see already how Deputies who voted for their feathered nest eggs will vote to support the Widows’ Pensions when that comes up soon…
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@Dave Jones
Nice post Dave, I did enjoy reading that.
However, in releation to the Chief Minister role you say “the job of Chief Minister, it takes someone with a huge amount of treasury experience…”.
As Lyndon Trott has a minimal amount of treasury experience it would appear that you agree with my view that he is not suited to the role!
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Town Dweller:
Thank you!
Yes thank you for the best letter I have seen and read and what’s more Understood.
My own letters are paled by the passion in your letter.
The truth of it
The meaning behind it
Oh so much thought yet honest facts
Bless you.
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“I see no reason why deputies cannot sit during evenings, or at weekends”
How about because they need to see and look after their children? Oh no! I forgot! They will have a woman to do that.
So they can have a normal 40hours a week job and then use all their free time to be a deputy. Great plan.
And as to it being part-time, maybe because that is because the wage is part time. Pay a full-time wage and expect full-time work. The position should be financially open to everyone. The best government will result from a States that is as representative as possible of the people it governs.
Fill it up with ancient men used to earning the best part of a million pounds a year and repent at leisure.
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Peter D
He has four years more than me and he has done a pretty good job as CM on several fronts, now you may not like him as a person or his style, I have no idea whether you do or not but he has represented the island well and even our many critics have given testimony to that fact. While I have a basic understanding of the intricacies of our economy that simply isn’t enough. For instance I know what a fiduciary is but I wouldn’t want to be in a room with a hundred or so international finance directors answering detailed questions on the subject. When it comes to the breadth of knowledge needed to do the job of CM, a decent grounding in financial matters is a must.
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Dave
For the umpteenth time, is your Declaration of Interests form correct re your Cougar shareholding.
I’m beginning to feel like Paxman trying to get an answer out of Michael Howard……….
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Phil
I have complied fully with the requirement for States member’s declarations, I have declared my directorship of Cougar Guernsey Ltd. I am not required under the code to list the value of the shares held.
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Dave
I believe that you are obliged to state whether or not you own more than 10% of the shares issued (not the value, just whether your shareholding exceeds 10% of the issued capital) much as you did regarding Bend Ltd.
Should you have declared Cougar as well?
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Dave
Are you there?
Less obfuscation and more straight answers please!!
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@Phil
Out of interest, are your persistent requests to Deputy Jones of any relevance to anything or are they in connection with a personal issue you may have with him?
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Sandy
They should be of interest to anyone who believes that Deputies should fill in their Declaration of Interests form correctly. Let’s face it, if the forms are not correcdt they’re pretty pointless.
Do you not agree?
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@Phil
I agree wholeheartedly – and presume you have also scrutinised the Declaration of Interest forms from all sitting deputies.
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Sandy
I’ve looked at all of them and several are incorrect, I have made this known to certain deputies and also the media. Nobody seems to think it’s anything to worry about, which is quite worrying in itself.
Dave posts on here so puts himself in the spotlght more than some, that’s the only reason I’ve asked the questions that I have.
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Paul Le Page – as our states gets most things wrong, most of the time (as followers of this forum would generally seem to think), it follows that most time spent by deputies is utterly wasted.
Ministers are a slightly different matter.
They have some executive functions at least.
The CS do the research, and the members skip through the stuff and vote based on a combination of gut feel and political instinct.
Dave Jones hasn’t much idea on technical aspects of finance, as he states above – and no amount of poring over pages of figures will make any difference – yet he will still vote.
There is no need for deputies to vote on every issue, and I maintain that a handful of hours is enough to fairly discharge an honest deputy’s duties. It is those that claim a superior grasp of everything that are being dishonest, no matter how many hours they put in.
Those that wish to analyse everything, down to nothing can waste their own money on it. Those that want extensive contact with the public can charge for “surgeries”, or generally make themselves unavailable. Many choose that route anyway. Half the current house haven’t a clue, but we are paying them all.
As for debating time – electronic voting with a ten minute maximum “debating” time cut the rhetoric, cut their pay.
If the likes of Ferbrache and Falla want to run the island for free, then let them. Half the house under an unpaid system wouldn’t have a clue, either, but they’d be cheap.
Rocquaine – nobody’s forcing anyone to stand, eh? It would seem that the kiddies would need every bit as much childcare during the week though…or is the school system just a babysitting service? A woman’s place, etc.
Wholly unsuited to politics – too emotional.
Get your partner to look after them if you are going to stand! It’s not another single parent benefit.
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Alternate job description for deputy:
Don’t talk to the public unless you have to. You aren’t there to politick their individual problems and grievances. This is a democracy after all.
Go ex-directory. Publish an e-mail address, but never reply. File all incoming correspondence, without reply as most of it is unnecessary.
Have as many side interests as you want – as long as they are all declared properly and you abstain whenever there’s a conflict of interest. They will broaden your outlook.
Try to avoid talking to other deputies – they really are all whiners.
Try not to speak in the house. Guess when the vote is likely to be and only turn up for that. Don’t listen to the other deputies as it will encourage them to make longer speeches about god knows what.
Avoid talking to the media, as this is a waste of time.
Read your billet and other papers in good time, and decide which bits you understand. Seek advice on the bits you don’t . Look through the files of unanswered correspondence for guidance. If you still don’t really get it, abstain. Better still, don’t turn up.
If you are having to average more than twenty hours a week on real DEPUTY business – consider standing down, because it’s far too much. Get a life, and maybe then you’ll be more in touch with the electorate, preferably not directly, though, as that might be misconstrued.
If you are spending less than five hours a week deputying, apply for a senior directorship in a big company – you are cutting through the BS admirably.
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