‘Life is God-given. He will choose when it ends’
Tuesday 14th June 2011, 2:29PM BST.
Author Terry Prachett, pictured at The Crown Pier during the documentary Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die, which aired last night on BBC2. The film followed the journey of two men to Switzerland to take their own lives. One was local resident Peter Smedley. (BBC Pictures)
A ‘MOVING’ documentary on euthanasia, which for the first time on UK television showed an assisted death, has split the views of islanders.
Terry Pratchett: Choosing to Die aired on BBC2 last night and followed two men with terminal illnesses journey to Switzerland to take their lives.
One was local resident Peter Smedley, who had motor neurone disease. He was shown taking his life using a cocktail of toxins at the Dignitas clinic. His wife Christine stroked his hand as he died in front of the television camera.
Catholic Dean of Guernsey Canon Michael Hore said he had not watched the programme due to its ‘grizzly’ nature and he was strongly against euthanasia.
‘Life is a God-given gift and God will choose when to end it,’ he said.
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Shame the Dean doesn’t get his facts right it is not euthanasia but assisted suicide, so God chose to kill 6 million Jews in the last war plus all the other people since dont make me laugh, if there is a god why is there all the suffering in the world please give us none beleivers a break.
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I think the Dean should have watched it myself!
But it was his choice not to!! …….and after all isn’t this what its all about.
CHOICE
RIP Mr Smedley …………a brave and courageous man.
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Typical of the god brigade to judge something without seeing it. How can he know it was ‘grizzly’ without having watched it? This Canon is loose with his words about a subject he obviously has very little understanding of.
As for when I depart my own life, Canon Hore, I will decide that thank you very much. Your god will have nothing whatsoever to do with this most personal of issues that will concern only myself and my closest friends and family members.
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To The Catholic Dean of Guersey Canon Michael Hore
Your God has definetly got it all wrong!
When he can “give” cancer’s, incurable or inoperable disease to children, the young etc and yet murderers, rapists, paedophiles etc can live a long life?
Hence we should ourselves choose the way we live and possibly die.
PS. I think Religion & Religous beliefs cause more deaths than anything else
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I am very pro and it was incredibly moving and brave. The death was painless and swift. Incredible to watch if not a little heavy but I feel a real progression for legalisation in the UK.
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Well Canon Hore, you let ‘him’ choose when yours ends but don’t expect me to suffer in agony to satisfy your mystic tendencies.
Keep your ‘god’ out of my life. Thank you.
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The Dean exercised his right to not watch the programme , I exercise my right to watch the programme and to not go to church and the right to die in dignity if I so wish ..
We are all happy
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Whilst I can understand the views of Christians, and respect their belief that God Giveth, and God Taketh, my own view point is that Christians too must understand and respect the views of those who are not. Whilst I sympathise that this end of human life is not within their beliefs, it is within others. Assisted Suicide is very similar to blood transfusions, and the belief of Jehovas Witness’ that they should not have one even at a life or death situation. This is their own belief, and one not shared with many others, but that doesn’t mean we should disrespect those beliefs.
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Martino – no doubt you’re right again. But you are oh so quick to judge the god brigade, when you don’t want them to judge you.
For my part, as a Christian, I watched the programme but couldn’t bring myself to watch the scenes of drinking the cocktail. I think showing the death in this way was inappropriate and added nothing to the case for or against. It was also intersting to note that the programme did not present a balanced view of the argument just a one sided view that this should become law.
I also found it interesting to note that even the liberal Swiss placed the clinic on a back of beyond industrial estate. If this means of death is acceptable why can this clinic not be in a residential area?
Undoubtedly, the families involved were very brave but I suggest that they were not all comfortable when it came to it. The man with MS had some considerations when he got there, Mrs Smedley did not come across as entirely convinced and Terry Pratchett’s assistant seemed more uncomfortable than all of them.
For me it felt morally wrong to help those who in real terms appeared far from their natural death to take their own lives. I wonder also what the families felt afterwards, was their view the same once their loved one had died?
Whatever your belief about how life begins the individual cannot start their own life and I do not believe a law should be passed to help end it.
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John, where did you get the idea that GOD chose to kill all those Jews? Hitler and his Nazi regime were the murderers, and that empire soon fell afterwards too!
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I do not see, neither have I heard in the interim, that Cannon Hore was asked to discuss, intervene, or council, Peter and Christine Smedley. He has a right, as we all do to comment, but I really think he should have held back on this occasion.
No doubt his opinion was sort, that is how we are are in Guernsey, ‘expert’ wise. I am disappointed that his personal vanity has come before his empathy for the couple envolved, which in so doing, in my view, prolongs Christine’s personal healing and grieving process.
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`He will choose when it ends`!
Great words.
So `He` chose the time to die for the Holocaust victims, the children Hindley & brady murdered, the heretics burnt at the stake by the Inquisition etc! Nice one God.
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Oh well. If I see the (frankly moronic) Mr. Hore about to be run over by a bus, then I won’t shout at him to get out the way – I wouldn’t want to interfere with God’s big plan, now would I.
Mr. Smedley was a true gentleman. He had more courage, dignity and class in his little finger than the small-minded Mr. Hore could ever dream of having.
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RIP Mr Smedley.. a very brave and courageous man.. also want to say how brave that Mrs Smedley was too.. for the dignified way that she handled the final moments with her beloved husband.. it would be difficult enough withouth it all in front of a camera too.. my thoughts are with you and your family at this very sad time.. David.
Everyone should have the right to choose, it’s their life (or death) after all..
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Why religion is trotted out is hard to fathom given it has been the consistently worst cause of bloodshed, misery and guilt in the world.
I am the one posting on all the euthanasia threads using an onscreen keyboard as my voice has already gone and my fingers are curled up…painful to type every letter. I am a Guernseyman with MND/ALS far more advanced than Mr Smedley when he went. I am paralysed from the neck down… been in a wheelchair for 4 months. I can move my neck slightly and have a tiny bit of movement in my fingers. I can do nothing at all for myself so have to have a very understanding carer with me 24/7 who doesn’t get much sleep either… and I am on morphine so when I am awake I am drowsy and weak.
So I am supposed to wait around for another year or two being unable to move or talk… have a tube down my throat for me to breathe with the phlegm and mucous having to be suctioned day and night and the ventilator monitored 24/7… and to be fed through a tube in my stomach until such time as I suffocate and die…that is God’s way!
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What I cannot understand in this argument is that by allowing assisted suicide, you are merely giving someone back a choice that they had when they were fit and well. If any fit or healthy person wants to commit suicide, there are many ways that it can be done, some of which are painless. So to that end, surely you are just giving someone back that choice when they are no longer fit or healthy enough to carry it out for themselves.
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I find it rather sad that people have to argue about that ‘suicide’
However as has been said the Lord gave us a one item that other ‘animals have not.
To choose how we live and what we believe in.
of the items I read here I find ‘Martino’s ‘ the most vicious,
However as said we all have a choice-yet I cannot but stop for a moment and think-
“If many came to the point of a painful illness, will they, in their godless way accept… the pain the inevitable stress, on the family+
I would wager that anyone with such pain and stress will say to themselves.
“Can I get help?”
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Life is not ‘God given’. Life is created by 2 people having sex.
I thought we lived in a democracy where you could air your own opinion and make your own decisions. But it seems some people like to judge/condem others for own beliefs. If a person chooses to end their own life then so be it. I’ve seen far too many people suffer and die horrible deaths all because they did not have the choice.
Those with religous beliefs should keep them to themselves, we don’t all live in a way in which we’re told how to live our own lives.
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The Guernsey Canon said…
‘Life is a God-given gift and God will choose when to end it,’ he said.
Meister Eckhart stated:
“I see God with the same eyes God Sees me.”
Feel free to Discuss
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Nick Le P – I have no doubt the families were not ‘comfortable’ watching their loved ones die in this way but is it ever ‘comfortable’ to watch a loved one die especially when they are suffering? As for ‘morally wrong’ look up motor neurone disease and you may re-think your choice of words.
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slep if you had read my post properly you would have realised what i wrote was sarcasm,if you read the article the dean stated life was a god given right and god will chose to end it, please get your facts right before you critisise.
Rex so sorry to read of your illnes best wishes to you.
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I have a gut feeling that the UK law may change before that nice Mr Cameron has to face the electorate again
It will all be dressed up in a compassionate/right to choose/power to the people type of package,but the real reason will be the enormous monetary savings to be made by the government in NHS care,disability allowances etc
Guernsey will no doubt follow the lead about ten years later
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If my life is God’s gift to me, surely I can do what I like with it?
Including returning it if it’s broken?
After all, if God is just going to take it away from me at some predetermined point in the future, then it’s not really a gift is it…. he’s just loaning me some life.
Make your mind up God/Catholic Dean of Guernsey Michael Hore!!
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Blue
“Those with religous beliefs should keep them to themselves, we don’t all live in a way in which we’re told how to live our own lives.”
Allow me to respond initially with your own words:
“I thought we lived in a democracy where you could air your own opinion and make your own decisions.”
People whose opinions are based on their religious beliefs (such as Canon Hore) are as entitled to air them as you are to respond; or are you suggesting that people whose views you don’t like should be silenced? Not exactly conducive to a liberal democracy.
As a Christian I find listening to other’s points of view most beneficial. It allows me the opportunity to wrestle with difficult issues and scrutinise my own beliefs. There should be nothing to fear from doing such things.
For my part I cannot say I agree with everything my fellow Christians post on this forum however they are just as entitled to their say as you or I.
It might also interest you (and others) to know that Christians are not immune from extreme pain, debilitating illness and death. You might consider taking a look at the books written by local pastor Eric Gaudion – a local man who knows more about pain than most.
No doubt there will be an ongoing debate on this issue and it may well be tackled again in the States at some point. Should that happen it is important that all points of view are allowed a fair hearing.
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You know we all have our own thoughts about many things
Religion being one: people who believe do not go round insulting as those who are “Atheists” that is their choice, as our choice id to believe.
The very thought and talk about the holocaust is rather ‘out’ of tune.
Yes it happened, and I am the firdst to denounce those savages that were the cause, I visted Belsen at one time just aftyern the war. on the enough said.
Yet religion also came into the horrible and nasty affair. But people forget…
Did they not say when at the trial of our Lord…
Crucify hoim release Barrabas..
And so they forgot that our Lord had also said “Revenge nis mine”
It may take along time… but His words are the true words.
Now you can all say what you will, for it falls on deaf ears to me
I believe, and had as lot of proof of that. so save your breath you cannot intimidate me-
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Student Bob:
I think you have misunderstood that gift of life.
Sure he made a gift to you and to me and to all–
That’s fine.
So if he takes it away what have you left?
A body that’s going nowhere,, think it over.
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Perhaps Canon Michael Hore should watch the programme instead of just spouting forth about God and his wonderful works, its available on BBC iPlayer. Maybe he is worried about his faith wavering if he has to confront too many instances of ‘God moving in mysterious ways’.
I often wonder which course Christians take if their pets are enduring terminal diseases. Do they see this as God’s will and keep them suffering or do they allow the vet to euthanize the animal? Its a genuine question, how do they square this with their beliefs?
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Paul Le Page, a good post there :)
Nick Le P, regarding the location of the Dignitas clinic: I live very close to that area and the clinic has `been moved around` several times in recent years. They once even carried out a suicide in a hotel in my town! That caused major outrage.
The clinic has been and still is a major bone of contention among the locals and nobody wants it in their back yard, so to speak.
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slep – thanks for that comment. It rather supports the view that it is not as acceptable as the programme makers would have us believe.
Beanjar – I don’t think Canon Hore has to watch the programme, nor do I think his view would change if he did. I don’t know him but his view is formed from his faith and therefore he knows now what he believes in and why.
This is a weak comparison but I don’t need to watch a programme explaining the benefits of cannabis to know that I will never smoke it.
In my opinion the difference between animals and humans is just that. Humans are not animals. I don’t mean to offend anyone its just my view.
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Oh Dear Nick Le P
All those wasted years by Darwin especially..
Origin Of the Species.
I find it annoying to find that my beloved doesn’t
come from the Ape Species.
But she does get up to a lot of monkey tricks.I’ll now have to think it over again.
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Fantastic programme about a truly brave man. Peter Smedley knew what was in store for him and chose an alternative that spared him and his family much suffering. If he had chosen to gas himself in his car there would have been no controversy. I understand the concerns of those who are religious, but I am sure that rational, caring people would never allow euthanasia just because someone has an imaginary friend, so they are quite safe.
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It`s a great shame that there has been such a reaction against Canon Michael Hore. He is one of the finest Catholic priests that Guernsey has had and he is deeply respected by many people both inside and outside the Catholic Church.
As I understand it, he was asked to give his view on the programme. By making his view known he was neither being disrepectful to other folks point of view, nor to Mrs. Smedley. Sadly, this is a case of you`re damned if you do and you`re damned if you don`t. Canon Michael could have refused to comment, but then that would no doubt have been interpreted as a reaction from a priest who really couldn`t care less about the value of human life.
Of course there will never be agreement on such emotive issues between believer and non believer. Each has a point of view and these must be respected. What is surprising in this instance is that no other priest or pastor on the island has backed Canon Michael publically, unless of course they have done so behind the shield of anonymity.
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Nick Le P – indeed animals have a mortal soul whereas a human has an immortal soul.
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If a Jehovah’s Witness refuses a blood transfusion are they choosing to kill themselves?
Religion? Rubbish more like……….
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“Animals have a mortal soul whereas a human has an immortal soul”
Poppycock ….. all creatures including you and me are made of the same galactic atom soup.
Watch Professor Brian Cox program “Wonders of the Universe” Explains everything about the stars and us!….Where we came from and where we are going…. and no God insight!!
If you think your soul will be immortal you have a big surprise coming one day Nick LP.
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Islander – I am sure you appreciate that I do not accept Darwin’s assumptions, which he renounced before the end of his life. As this is not an evolution thread let’s not start that debate here.
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Is God a man or purely a creating principal. Canon Hore and the Vatican is doing rather well out of the former.
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Religion……no thanks!
If I want fantasy I’ll watch Lord of the Rings.
No one’s saying that assisted suicide should be mandatory, just an option. You religious types don’t have to partake.
Just do the rest of us the courtesy of not trying to make us feel bad about it from the lofty Mount Pious upon which you stand.
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Alex: “Of course there will never be agreement on such emotive issues between believer and non believer. Each has a point of view and these must be respected.”
Thats exactly the point isn’t it? I respect your right to enjoy years of suffering if thats what your God has in store for you. What about my right to the peaceful passing that you would demand for your dog or cat? Why should your beliefs dictate my human rights? Nominally Britain might still be considered a Christian country but what percentage share the same beliefs as you? Quite low would be my guess, but even if I was the only atheist in Britain your views should should not be the reason for me to suffer needlessly.
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Nick Le P & Veritas
You’re absolutely right of course. And God created the Earth in 7 days.
Must run, I’m off to chat to the fairies at the bottom of the garden……
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Not too sure why Darwin is here in this debate but but I suppose it serves to illustrate the mystic’s refusal to embrace that which does not fit with their particular ‘god’.
Galileo was censured for suggesting that the Earth is not the centre of universe “false and contrary to Scripture” was the official Vatican opinion……
The debate here is really whether the religious should be allowed to prescribe whether, and how, I may choose to end my days. It is not about a law that will force them to have to pop off before ‘god’ has a room ready for them.
They are trying to deny me a choice.
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Nick le P
Wouldn’t dream of going into such deep fantasies of Darwin’s theories.
However I must point out that there is in fact a lot of MONKEY BUSINESS going around.. n’est pas?
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I simply don’t know what the answer to this question is having watched the programme and reading intensely the opinions expressed on this forum.
However…
I cannot believe how rude some people can be to their fellow race… Phil, how mocking… what gives you the right to judge someone else’s opinion?
Everyone has the right of opinion or we ultimately live in an oppressed society. I’m pretty sure wars have started because of oppression.
The Canon would have been criticized had he have made no comment and he certainly wouldn’t have lied saying he agrees with assisted suicide… What was he supposed to say?
Opinions and individuals are what makes the world go round… mocking, bullying, whatever you want to call it isn’t necessary and the world would be a boring place if we all agreed :-)
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Oh dear. Religon splitting the world once again.
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@ Nick le P.Of course we are animals. We have 99% of the same genes as apes. We are hairless apes. Anyone who denies this completely obvious fact is clearly delusional. I love the loftiness of some of the posts on this thread. Looking down from above it is clear that humans have the genes of each and every animal inside them. Look how some people look like goriilas, or some look like chickens (indeed we have 75% similar genes to chickens, this is irrefutable scientific FACT) Just like Darwins Origin of the Species. Anyone who believes The Book of Genesis to be fact is patently not in touch with any kind of reality. Even Saint Augustine in the Third Century agreed that this book was an allegory of mankind and not hard fact.
I hold beliefs from many religions including Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism and Islam also. I refute most forms of extremist nonsense and in my opinion Creationists are extremists of a fashion. In the face of overwhelming scientific fact they are still vehemently opposed to obvious reality. It is embarrassing and painful to listen or read people in such denial.
This slight digression puts us back onto topic. If an animal is in pain then you put it out of it misery. When it is abundantly clear that a human is completely past the point of no return and in so much pain they have less than zero quality of life then I would have no problem (morally) at all with ending their life. My honest feeling is that “All life is precious and once it is destroyed it can never come back” Killing (self included) unnecessarily is a terrible sin and worthy of an eternity in a terrible place. In a pure and honest situation killing in mercy is a brave act.
I await the Wrath of the Creationists…
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I think it is fair he has said this, it is his belief after all.
I do feel though people like himself who share his view should respect that not everyone else believes in God and can live their lives in other ways.
Due to this I think if they were being reasonable they would be tolerant and respect the right of others to have it carried out if they wish too. The legalisation of it would not directly effect them as they would not choose to have it.
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Interesting that the Canon thought it was grizzly when they so often talk about how Jesus was treated in his final days.
As for Nick Le P, your right, humans will never be like Animals. When do you ever see what we do to each other and our environment in the animal kingdom
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@PWFudgedonut, no wrath from this creationist, although you have gone off on a bit of a rant. Nice to know you consider me deluded, I assure you I am not, although I accept I hold a different view to you. There are many eminent scientists who do not accept a big bang or evolution explanation for the origin of the universe and beyond.
I expect that there are also many with no faith who do not think that assisted death is acceptable, and for that reason this is not a faith or religious debate.
Interestingly, you have moved the debate a bit when you say “When it is abundantly clear that a human is completely past the point of no return and in so much pain they have less than zero quality of life then I would have no problem (morally) at all with ending their life”
Whilst I have more sympathy with this situation, can it be said that this applies to the people in the programme? It didn’t appear so, although I completely accept I have no knowledge of the individual’s daily suffering.
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@ Mark
“If you think your soul will be immortal you have a big surprise coming one day Nick LP.”
Can I suggest that our risk (mortal v immortal) is at very least equal here. Yours is a risk I don’t want to take. In any event if my faith is wrong I won’t know about it.
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Of course we’re animals..
Don’t we play cat and mouse with each other
Lead DOG’s life
Give BEAR hugs
FISH for compliments
Take the LIONS share
Like leopards we don’t change our spots.
Hoard things like SQUIRRELS
It never stops.
Yes we’re like animals alright
He was like an animal, she told the judge, so it must be true. An there are fairies at the bottom of my garden
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bart: “The Canon would have been criticized had he have made no comment and he certainly wouldn’t have lied saying he agrees with assisted suicide… What was he supposed to say?”
This is rot. He could simply have said he had no comment because he had not seen it. For him to say “he had not watched the programme due to its ‘grizzly’ nature” is really quite insulting to the poor people he and his kind are tormenting. The only ‘grizzly’ aspect was the miserable existances people suffer thanks to his all-seeing, all knowing God. This religious nonsense makes me sick, its not so long ago they were burning people alive for going to the wrong church. What moral right have a few fanatics got to impose their absurd and harmful views on the thinking majority?
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I love you Islander!
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Its got nothing to do with “God” or “Gods plan”. Bringing religion into the argument ignores the real issues. The problem with assisted suicide is that it makes the lives of those who choose to live that much harder. I am speaking of those who choose to live with an painful illness…. even children who have had an illness since birth. People who are proud of themselves for their achievements in life despite their painful disability or illness and who may not otherwise think of suicide will start considering it due to the precedent set by others. They have good days and bad days but it only takes one bad day to make the appointment and once the ball starts rolling it is very difficult to turn back. You think you have choice in these matters but you don’t, once the appointment is made and the ball starts rolling it takes a lot to stop it at the end- especially with an “audience” as Peter had. To stop it goes against all previous decisions you have made up to that final point. I’m concerned that at the time of being given the drink he wasnt really given the option of thinking about it further and coming back in a few weeks or after the summer or next year- it was similar to just, now are you going to do it not? Very black and white. Whilst I’m sure that Peter wanted this option and I respect his decision, I am not sure that he was certain of the timing of things- thats how I feel from my limited view of watching the program anyway.
People seem to be talking about animals and vets and seem to ignore that there is a huge difference between putting down an animal and putting down a person and that difference is that, simply put, an animals life is not worth as much (to us) as a human life. Life is valuable – even a painful one.
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Beanjar: Q. “What moral right have a few fanatics got to impose their absurd and harmful views on the thinking majority?”
A. The same right you have…
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Islander – I think you have misunderstood the concept of ‘gifts’.
If I gave you a lovely shiny train set as a gift for your Birthday, then I changed my mind and decided I wanted the train set after all, so took it off you and kept it all for myself. How would you feel?
Likewise, if I gave you a lovely shiny train set for your birthday, then three days later it broke, due to a manufacturing fault, would you expect to return it to the shop? Or would you sit there, pushing your broken trains along a ruined track…
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Nick Le P – “I expect that there are also many with no faith who do not think that assisted death is acceptable, and for that reason this is not a faith or religious debate.”
Exactly – we ended up on this religious tangent because some people brought religion into the discussion as a basis for saying that it should not happen. Religious beliefs can inform a believer’s views on matters such as assisted suicide, but the word of God cannot itself be the basis for a discussion on the matter as the argument is then irrelevant to other people.
The whole debate seems to have been diverted into this clos, and it would be better if we could get back to discussing the issue itself without bringing individual faith into it.
I do however agree that Canon Michael Hore appears to have been simply saying his own view, or the reasons for his view, and not necessarily saying that because of his view the law of the land should follow the word of his God. There is a difference and I think that some have criticised him unfairly.
My views are that there are grave difficulties in ensuring that assisted suicide is used only when appropriate, but I can see the reasons why it could be appropriate when a person is inevitably stuck on a path of unbearable pain and suffering and there is no other option for them beyond taking the painkillers and waiting for the inevitable. But it must be their own free and conscious decision.
Some will disagree, but I am not currently sure that a poor quality of life through disability is by itself enough (e.g some people in Prof Stephen Hawking’s position might have given up the will to live) and I do think that some high threshold of pain and suffering is required. Not sure how you can draw the dividing line, though.
Personal choice is important, as is protection of the vulnerable. But let’s move on from the religious stuff please.
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Nick Le P, Darwin didn’t renounce his evolution views on his deathbed, that’s just urban myth created by s desperate creationist called Lady Hope.
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In the eyes of the law it is an offence to assist a person who commits suicide, read previous articles in the press.
If one looks at suicide victims they cannot be mentally stable, more often than not they are under other influences ie family who cannot be bothered to help.
Look at one of your own resisidents from 2008 who had no terminal illness!!
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Back now after a couple of days in the UK. I think the points against me raised by Nick Le P in my post just before my little break have been addressed adequately by so many others on this thread. The fact remains that Canon Hore did not watch this programme. He also called it grizzly. Fact. He condemned it without having watched a second of it. Fact. He prejudged it. Incontrovertible fact.
While there are some valid concerns about the practicalities of assisted suicide and about the safeguards needed to make sure that it is administered properly/not open to serious abuse, I am convinced that no caring human being could possibly be against the PRINCIPLE of allowing assisted suicide. Unless, of course, they are so much under the grip of religious dogma and indoctrination (like Jehovah’s witnesses who are against life saving blood transfusions) that their rational, caring side is overwhelmed by their wacko beliefs. Unfortunately you fall under that category Nick Le P. Your mind is closed whereas Paul Le P’s is not.
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Bart, that is illogical. I would like the right – for myself – to die without pain under certain circumstances. Why should YOUR beliefs dictate the manner of MY death? My decision would have no bearing on your situation. Everybody should be able to state their own choice via a ‘living will’. Given the choice, I think the vast majority of people with progressive, degenerative conditions would prefer to ‘opt out’ at some point before the bitter end. If God has provided us with the means to reduce suffering, what is so wrong with using it?
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Mark
Yes great program.
But if you think that he has explained how we got here or how life started (i think thats what your saying?) then you really didn`t understand the program very well.
Nobody knows how life started and the ones that claim they do are either liars or deluded. Its all theory very well put across far to often as facts.
Most scientists belives come from their up bringing and not from their reasearch, there was a study carried out that suggested this.
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Student Bob;
I honestly thing it is you who mistakenly conjures up a solid gift as to a theoretical one
The gift is unseen, yet it’s there-
A solid gift is seen is felt. you enjoy it.
The gift I responded to was that unseen gift of TRUST.
If people have trust, all else is forgotten.
You give youth trust to worthy cause, you can’t possibly withdraw once given.
Such is the gift referred to.
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frenchpig – I think that you have missed the whole point of the debate.
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Islander – if the gift is trust, rather than life itself, then it can only be given to a believer. How can a non-believer have trust in a God in which he does not believe?
Ergo, God only gives that gift to believers. Non-believers are outside of that theoretical position and are free to act according to their conscience and the law of the land.
darn it, I’ve returned to that clos of theology again…
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@Martino, you make me smile. Please explain what wacko beliefs I have and how my mind is closed? Failing that you are just judging me without knowing, exactly the accusation you make. I take it your mind is open to Christianity?
May I ask if you did any 24/7 or Sunday shopping whilst you were here in the UK?
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Martino – Although I’m grateful for the compliment I am a little uncomfortable being used as a comparison against Nick Le P. Looking at his posts I’d say we largely share the same beliefs, although we may apply them slightly differently at times.
I’m reluctant to wade in too much more right now, suffice it to say few people would argue that the principle of alleviating pain is a good one. I still remain unconvinced about assisted suicide though – for one thing I am very concerned about the wider ramifications that have been covered in previous posts on this issue, such as the slippery slope argument. I think my current position is that I find it at best morally questionable.
The problem is that much as I would love to, I simply do not think it’s a closed case. One thought nags me more than anything else – the thought of potentially allowing a judge to lock up someone like Mrs Smedley for 14 years because she acted out of love for her suffering husband and according to his wishes. Even the most ardent opponent must question whether that is justice. For my part, despite my grave concerns about assisted suicide the thought frankly disgusts me – it is a cold legalistic thought that in my mind is more Pharisaical than Christian. It certainly doesn’t strike me as an action the Lord Jesus Christ would condone – although naturally I do not presume to speak for him.
The more I think through this issue the more I see what a grey area it is. It requires much soul searching on the part of everyone.
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Just a thought.
Whilst you lot bang on regardless, you are taking up top spot on the forum with no regard for other than your personal sideshows. Why not start a alternative club and release the spot for topical local issues.
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adam west reminded me on another thread that this debate is, or should be, about ethics. but the hollow-eyed god zombies just keep coming – creeping up relentlessly (doubtlessly powered by the word), clogging up logic and compassion. i listened to michael hore and he was brilliant – i thought it was a real bit from father ted – i couldn’t tell the difference. of all the sets of prehistoric, absurd religious beliefs, blocking up our search for universal, progressive, humane values, it is surely that of catholicism. i respect the canon as a well-meaning sort of bloke and also his right to hold his beliefs. but i will rubbish that belief system like leo messi through any flat back four if i can. get out of the way all you religion mongers – how dare you various mumbo jumbo-minded, old heretic burners, you high priests of bloody altar sacrifice, of population explosion and child abuse, of deathly jihad and explosive vests … how dare even you mild mannered man at the back of the church tell me how to end, or not end, MY life. there, that should do it … hang on though … what’s that? … it’s like singing … noooh! it’s onward christian zombies coming down the chimney … and hundreds of zombie khorans (struggling a bit here) pouring through the letter box! … and we just want to slip away early if we want, that’s all, what’s the big deal? … … … sorry, what was the question?
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Beanjar, are you telling me that if someone doesn’t agree with you then they have no right to an opinion irrespective of how it effects you? I’m pretty sure thats you’re saying.
And what’s this “YOUR” God business. I was simply backing the cannon who is as entitled to an opinion as you are. I wasn’t making a moral judgement and if you read my first post it clearly says “I simply don’t know what the answer to this question is having watched the programme and reading intensely the opinions expressed on this forum.”
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blah – those putting forward their religious viewpoint are discussing ethics. Do some research on Divine Command Theory. Your views on the other hand seem largely based on the theory of rights – your right to end your own life.
Ironically enough, by the content of your posts it would seem you are as dogmatic about that theory as you claim Canon Hore is about his.
I take your point that the divine command theory has rather taken over this forum though. So might I suggest that, instead of descending into some rather childish ranting about zombies, your time might be better spent putting a reasonable argument forward based on your view of ethics and then explain why you consider your ethical viewpoint to be better than his.
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Terry Langlois.
Which proves you think, and in thinking digest; then having digested, further thought…
It will never go away Terry. yet one day you may just trust your wisdom to say.
Humph Maybe—
I expect funny remarks, or abuse, which also comes under FUN.
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BCB
I agree the Brian Cox program didn’t answer the ultimate question of where we came from …It may never be answered.
But at least it gave more enlightenment of the bigger picture than just saying “God did it”
We need to keep asking “Why” to move forward to be better humans to each other
And science good, or bad has helped us do that…..it could ultimately find a cure
For Motor Neuron Disease……The bible won’t!!!
That’s why the program about Mt Smedley was so important, it has got us asking questions……and hopefully we’ll find an answer for the suffering these people go through..
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Where do I start Nick Le P? Your posts are so full of nonsense.
Creationism = wacko. Believing we were ‘created’ at the whoosh of your god’s magic wand is wacko. To denigrate the science of evolution by calling it an ‘assumption’ is wacko.
Turning back to the subject, yes I believe Paul Le P’s creationist views are just as wacko as yours but the essential difference is that there is humanity in his posts. There is precious little in yours. There is real soul searching in his posts. There is none in yours. There was true empathy in his posts for the plight of this brave couple. There is hardly any in yours.
Take this typically cold and harsh statement from one of your earlier posts: “… even the liberal Swiss placed the clinic on a back of beyond industrial estate. If this means of death is acceptable why can this clinic not be in a residential area?”
This ‘means of death’ as you out it is entirely acceptable in Switzerland. Swiss people who choose it do not have to use the Dignitas clinic. However, the Swiss are understandably nervous about desperate foreigners using their country because of a lack of suitable legislation at home and so the practice is marginalised and not encouraged by the Swiss authorities even though it is perfectly legal.
It is precisely because of you and your ilk, Nick Le P, that people like the Smedleys are forced to go to a clinic on an industrial estate in a foreign. They should be free to take this course of action at home, without the need to travel to a strange country at a premature moment, but you would deny them this right, which is not god given but human. That is the essence of this sorry story. It is about human rights and nothing whatsoever to do with god beliefs that you, quite unlike your fellow believer Paul Le P, are so eager to foist onto the rest of us,
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The story was moving and couragous – I take my hat of to this man and his family for allowing us all to see, what can be a reasonable end to our lives.
If god makes a decision when life ends – why do we keep people going with medicines and drugs??
God created all “apparently” and also those people who create drugs to keep you alive and also allow you to end.
Let people make their own decisions about life – after all … I am sure thats what god intended too!
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Islander – you were talking about the ‘unseen gift of trust’?
Sorry.
Catholic Dean of Guernsey Canon Michael Hore and me were both talking about the rather more tangible, solid, seen and felt ‘God-given gift of life’.
Perhaps it’s time to let your irrelevant, random tangent die with dignity?
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Martino – I have looked back carefully at my posts on this subject. I have stated that I am a Christian, which by definition means I have faith, and I have said that I am a creationist. However, I have not mentioned God or suggested anyone needed to share my faith in any of my posts. In fact in one post I commented that this was not a religious debate. I would hardly call that eagerly foisting my beliefs on others.
I respect everyone else’s view but I don’t necessarily agree. In addition, I have not been personally vindictive or vicious in my comments.
I have asked some searching questions of those in favour, perhaps touched a raw nerve or two, but that is debate is it not?
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You know good people, one and all, without favouring one more than the other.
You will indeed get great thoughts if you read and understand the verses of OMAR KHAYYAM.
This one verse says it all;
Then to the lip of this poor earthen urn
I leaned the secret of my life, to learn:
And lip to lip it murmured ..
“While you live…
Drink!-for, once dead, you never shall return.
Think it over!!! have a nice week end.
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If the good Lord has a ledger in which is written the times and dates of everyone’s demise could it be that Mr Smedley’s time and date was already predetermined and that his assisted passing has not interfered at all with the lifespan the good Lord had in mind for him
Failed suiciders possibly only fail because it is not yet their time according to the ledger
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I was debating this issue with a friend just this afternoon.
If you have an ill patient (let’s say cancer) and they will live for approximately 6 months with no treatment but with treatment there is a chance they will be cured, or at least their life prolonged, then surely if you believe that God chooses when you die you would not take the treatment to cure or prolong your life?
Why is it any different to someone who wants to die by assisted suicide (ie taking a cocktail of drugs prescribed by the medical profession) to someone who wants medics to intervene to save them? Isn’t the outcome the same for both extremes, ie it’s not god dictating when you die but the medical profession per se?
Thoughts?
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I don’t want to comment on the programme as I am sure that this poor widow has enough to come to terms with without me adding to that burden.
What I have noted is that so many contributers to this page, have used this very sad happening to make nasty and unfounded remarks to people who attend church.
If the vicar that you are abusing happened to be a builder, would you have launched a similar attack on the building trade?
If there is no such a being as a god, why blame him for sickness and Jews etc.
I think the same thing happened when the law changed to allow kids to be involved with older men. I’m sure it was a churchman who was ridiculed for that too.
I know that religious people have done bad things and some still do, but on these occasions they try to protect sick people and kids without threat or abuse to others on the column and yet they are abused relentlessly.
Why don’t you all get together and have a good chat to sort out your differences.
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It’s simple, let the religious people suffer lingering pain and let the non-religeous people choose if they wish to end their suffering. Everybody’s happy, job’s a goodn!
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Terry Pratchett,s life was his and his alone, if he chose to end it then that was his choice.
I cannot think of any way to descibe without feeling I have grossly understated the gravity of the decision to end ones own life. For once you are gone your are gone, no heaven, no hell, your gone.
For most of my life when bad things have happened, be it natural disasters or human atrocities, I’ve heard the question of why god has allowed such things to happen, the answer is that the Lord works in mysterious ways.
Well to me there aint no mystery, mankind is an animal, just like any other, and not a very nice one at that if you get rid of the most inteligent creature on the planet Bull****. We like all animals are at the mercy of the world we live in. So there aint no mystery just our arrogance.
As for Canon Michael Hore’s statement that
‘Life is a God-given gift and God will choose when to end it’ Alls I can say is thankfully we no longer live in society that considers the words of churchmen to be the word of god. Because you know where all us heretics would have ended up.
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Very moving and anyone who has seen loved ones suffer in the most appaling and horrendous manner will understand why these guys opted out of the horrors that awaited them…Swiss industrial sites are not the same as UK and the rest of europe quite the opposite.
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Isnt life in guernsey one long painful experience?
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Rachel
| June 17, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Thank you for your post. If you would like to know my views on this subject, ping me an e.mail johnhenry@cwgsy.net
I am a Christian and I am aware that many people do not want to hear about anything to do with God these days however I would be glad to answer some of the issues raised in this thread. I am happy to assist anybody else who has genuine questions, please get in touch and I will do what I can to explain things from a biblical perspective.
I would discuss this openly but I fear that it would just attract unfounded abuse from people who have no intention of learning the truth about Gods word.
If you are left confused by some of the comments made about God, Christians, The Bible etc then I am not surprised as most of the accusations and comments such as “God gives children incurable diseases” and God killed 6 million Jews” are not even true, they are merely comments made by the ill informed.
Please get in touch, I do not need a name just an email address for a reply, I am just happy to help out if I can.
John
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Don’t do it Rachel!
I don’t want you turning up on my doorstep all googly eyed selling The Watchtower!
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If you dont mind,Hore, maybe one person would not like to be forced to be yet another in the seemingly endless queue of “Lamb’s of god”
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Just checking back in to this thread, and why is everyone “ganging” up on Canon Hore. Should this Padre have been a member of the Islam Faith, none of this badgering would have taken place. Christianity seems to draw the short straw. So be it, the Christian Faith will always be prevalent, just as those who claim Atheism, or Agnoticism.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you agree with it or not, unlike most people here who have continually pushed their side / opinion of this issue of assisted suicide, Canon Michael has said nothing but his personal opinion.
Let’s leave him alone, let’s move on, for, whether you are Christian or not, you believe in assisted suicide or are against it, Mr Smedley is no longer with us, and so, let us be thankful for what we have, and live our own lives.
Thank God, or the gods, or Allah, or Mr Darwin, that we are all different!
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While hunger for and love of the truths of religion help one to live well, it is not necessary to be religious or to believe in God to see assisted suicide/euthanasia etc as gravely detrimental to society at large. History has demonstrated very clearly that a society which regards innocent human life as expendable (for ANY reason) is a society of barbarians, who will commit the gravest and most obvious wrongs against their fellow men. KILLING THE INNOCENT (i.e. the not-harming) IS ALWAYS WRONG. It does not matter what the circumstances/excuses/motivations are: innocent human life is always worthy of protection.
The horrors of the Nazi holocaust did not spring out of nothing: they arose because people had accepted the principle in the 1920s (as our own society has already done) that some human lives are expendable, that some innocent human lives are not worth protecting.
Killing the disabled, depressed, sick because they ask for it is not compassion: it is abandonment – it is concurring with them that they have a life not worth living. Those who praise Dignitas are perhaps not aware that Minelli has said that he would not turn anyone away: the desire for death, for whatever reason, ought in his opinion to be gratified. We already have abortion on demand: are we going to have death on demand too?
Those who say that their choice for euthanasia/ assisted suicide has no impact on those who do not want this state of society to exist- who do not want a society which is even more openly murderous and more involved in the culture of death than it is already – are not thinking very straight. They are like people saying ‘well, you can have your silence in this room: but we are going to talk’. Legalising euthanasia contaminates the whole of society.
The fundamental principle of law and justice is that innocent human life is to be protected: without this cornerstone, the whole edifice crumbles. Moreover, the fundamental principle of medicine, the thing which separated medicine from magic in the fourth century B.C. was the principle that doctors should do no harm, and should not prescribe or counsel any deadly drug. Since we already kill the innocent in HUGE numbers, it is hard for people to see that killing the innocent is always wrong: but it is desperately important to provide safety at least for those of us who have made it into the world. We are in a desperate state indeed if someone who says that the basic function of society is the protection of innocent (i.e. not harming) human life is regarded as a foaming radical.
There is NEVER a good reason to kill the innocent. I am not a ‘vitalist’- it is not necessary always to do everything to preserve life. However, any action or omission which intends the death of the innocent is murderous, and immensely destructive of society, and of the lives of everyone in society: be warned: we are all only temporarily able.
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Just bye the bye – the earth is not the centre of the Universe!
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jemgeach
Difficult to count the times you have used the word ‘innocent’
I take it that you are not opposed to the death penalty ?
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Jemgeah….a well writen piece but you use he words “Killing” “Murder” etc like everyone’s going on shooting spree, this is about “Suicide” the taking of ones own life and “assisted” giving someone the means to take their own life…. purely because the pain and suffering they will go through will be, to coin a phrase
“A fate worse than death”
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For my part, I think the Canon did the wrong thing in jumping into a debate about a television programme without even having seen it. Those of us who wish to see the law in Britain chenge to allow people to die with dignity in certain circumstances obviously need to make a case for it. Having anybody in essense say “I didn’t see watch it because it didn’t seem much fun, my God has told me its all wrong anyway” does not advance the debate. Had anybody who is not in his elevated position said the same thing their uninformed comments would have been completely ignored.
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Veritas
Why do you assume that if a Muslim had commented nobody would object?
In my mind they’re all as bonkers as each other, which is fine if they keep it to themselves. When they try to impose their crazy beliefs on other people that’s a very different matter though, and a dangerous one to boot.
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I was wondering why there were any Christians left to comment on this thread as they were all supposed to be gone on 21st May.
The excuse for why The Rapture didn’t turn out to be so rapturous can be found here http://www.familyradio.com//graphical/literature/whathappened.html
And to think that those how believe all this gibberish think themselves qualified to be our moral guardians. Scary.
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Yes Veritas, like Phil I resent the suggestion that nothing would have been said if these proclamations had come from an Islamic mullah. IMO Islamic extremism, the raison d’etre for most of the terrorist outrages on the planet, is worse than Christian extremism. I suppose we can be thankful that Canon Hore hasn’t issued a fatwa at least.
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Because, Mr or Mrs Hello, not all Christians belive in the so called Rapture …
Christ came first 2,000 years ago and will come only once at the end of the world to conquer evil and end time on earth as we know it. There is no rapture. This theory was started by a Scottish visionary and has no basis in Scripture or Tradition.
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But this is COMPLETELY off topic.
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@Hello – I didn’t take that guy seriously so perhaps that’s why I got left behind? ;)
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@ Paul Le Page – Harold Camping got left behind too though I think he could have taken the opportunity to perform a wonderful ‘Reggie Perrin’.
@ Veritas – It strikes me that ‘Scripture’ can be made to say whatever you want it to say and therein lies both the key to it’s longevity and possibly it’s greatest weakness in the eyes of those without a need for faith. For it appears to me that men created gods and adapts them from place to place and time to time.
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“For it appears to me that men created gods and adapts them from place to place and time to time”
Like it
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Sorry not answering for a few days, been otherwise engaged.
Not that anything of great value has come to light
We each have our own thoughts and values of what ever we think, and that is how it should be.
If a man wishes to go his way, as a non believer; then he unknowingly is a believer,he chooses not to believe, that’s part of life, and it is life that was given.
Now the talk of Gifts has some funny answers, and no matter how any of us try his wit at explaining.,we’ll never agree with all
As an a example to those words by an American a long time ago.
“You can please all the people some of the time…
You can please some of the people all the time. But by golly you cannot please all the people all the time.
But one of the explanation(In my view) is the thought of food, Yes food; we eat our food and are happy and well satisfied.
Then that remarkable miracle begins; the food is all mashed up, then thinned out… then turns to blood, to give us… Yes LIFE!
Animals are no different, take the bears of the north lands, I think now of Canada and Russia.
The bear goes to his winter lodgings and sleeps till spring: He has no food, but the food he ate in Autumn is now taken from his body to feed him. Then (and it’s not crude to say) his urine is turned into drinking water.
When the female goes to winter sleep, most are pregnant, when spring comes they have tiny cubs, yes life is given.
Yet I do not wish to try and convert anyone, deep down I’m sure they know their own minds.
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FYI: I use the word innocent 11 times in 502 words.
The reason for this is that the defence of innocent (there it is again!) human life is the reason for the existence of society. If this protection no longer pertains, we do not have society: we have barbarism.
I use the words murder and killing, because that is what assisted suicide/euthanasia (whether voluntary or involuntary, active or passive) is. The proposal that private individuals (at the moment, doctors are preferred) should be allowed to kill another is cutting away the roots of law, of justice, of a civil society.
As to the death penalty: I hold that we as a society are rich enough, secure enough, not to have recourse to it. But it is not absolutely wicked; killing the innocent is.
As for those who sneer because some of the people who oppose this massive evil are Christians: such sneering ill befits those who profess to believe in ‘choice’, and is in any case totally irrelevant to the argument.
The concept of a life not worthy of life was introduced by the Germans in the 1920s: and as Leo Alexander pointed out, that shift in perspective made the horrors of the death camps possible. People are inclined to jeer at slippery slope arguments: in this matter, it is not a matter of theory, but of fact that where euthanasia has been legalised, from its modest beginnings of killing the terminally ill, with their consent, it has moved to killing the non-terminal; handicapped new borns, people with cancer who are ‘bed blocking’; people suffering from depression because of terrible crises in their lives. (For facts and figures, see the Remmelink Report). Because of the practice of euthanasia, pain specialists and hospices are poorly developed in Holland, as a 1988 study by the BMA showed.
I did see some of the programme: I am ashamed of having seen it, for grizzly does not begin to cover the horror. It was in stark contrast to other death beds which I have attended in person.
About ‘choice’: people are apt to speak as though in some cases ‘it’s my choice’ was a silver bullet which ended an argument. But no one would listen to a child molester who said it was his ‘choice’ to molest children – a choice may be one’s own, and still objectively, horribly, wrong. And the appeal to autonomy which lies behind the idea that my choice is a final end to a discussion relies on a concept of human dignity which is utterly vitiated if innocent human life is not protected.
People also talk about others imposing their views if they oppose euthanasia. But the legalisation of euthanasia is also imposing a view – and a very deadly one. Legal euthanasia is not a private act, which only affects the killers and the killed: it affects the whole of society, for it utterly alters the whole framework of law and justice, and has a dreadful effect on the practice of medicine. Thus in Belgium, where euthanasia has been legal since 2002, they have used the organs from some victims for transplant organs ( see Telegraph 14th June). O brave new world.
Baroness Warnock has already spoken of a ‘duty’ to die: has indicated that caring for the sick, the disabled, the mentally incapacitated is a waste of time, energy and resources. That is, she seems to be saying that love, sacrifice, duty and real compassion (the very things that make us human and enlarge us morally and spiritually) are a waste. And notice that even before euthanasia has been accepted, the ‘right’ to die has become a ‘duty’ to do so.
It is not necessary to be a Christian, or to believe in God to stand aghast at the society which would emerge were euthanasia made legal. There are no safeguards except absolute prohibition of murder which could protect the weak, the vulnerable, the despairing from being done to death, with or without their ‘consent’.
The fact is that legalised killing makes the heart hard, and means that instead of regarding our fellows as ends in themselves, they become a means to an end; instead of loving and respecting people because they are, because they exist, we look to extraneous qualities to give them value.
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BTW: I meant to say the SUN is not the centre of the Universe: Galileo was condemned for saying that it was.
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jemgeach
Any thoughts on Sansie’s 6.09pm June 16 post on the thread entitled ‘He preferred suicide to a lingering death’a bit further down the page?
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