2

John

If you cant do the time dont do the crime.

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4

colin

Seems to me he’s got 7 years left to serve of his original sentence. “Can’t do the time don’t do the crime”.

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6

ScoobyDoobyDoo

Not that I particularly think that this guy has any grounds for reasonable complaint (is 14 years not the maximum sentence for importing a large quantity of class A drugs, and therefore this was a risk he knew he was taking?), but does anyone know if he is actually from Guernsey? If not, then my blood will boil a little bit more…

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8

pyer

The extended article printed in the Press says that he spends one week a month on ‘home leave’ with his partner and son. If he thinks that is being left to rot then he ought to visit some prisons in the Far East

Long sentences help deter other would be drug smugglers from bringing drugs into Guernsey

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10

James

Let’s hope his sob story is a small warning to other criminals tempted to come here to sell drugs.
Stay away or rot in prison.
My only (small) regret is that I imagine it’s the Guernsey taxpayer that is funding his stay at her Majesty’s pleasure.
Did McKenna imagine for a moment that anyone in Guernsey would feel sorry for him?

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12

Kilroy

What? I am almost speechless! Supposedly in prison for 13 years. One week out of every four he gets to go home. If he got this benefit from day one, by my reckoning he owes “society” another 2 years at least! Also, not knowing any ages of the people concerned, I would hope that he hasn’t become a father again so that the “state” doesn’t have to support his offspring since he’s in no position to do so himself!
(Question:-When is a prison not a prison?
Answer:- When the gates are opened 1 week in 4!)

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14

eggy bread

Beanjar – “how many kids lives his 10,000 ecstacy tablets would have ended or ruined?”

Well the answer to that is easy, it’s none.

MDMA has been proved time and time again to be safer than aspirin, millions of people take it safely every weekend and it only occasionally causes problems.

Media scaremongering is far more dangerous than this drug.

The Academy of Medical Science’s paper published in the Lancet a few years ago ranked MDMA low down at position 18 out of 20 on it’s harmful drugs list. For comparison alcohol was considered very harmful at number 5 and tobacco at number 9. Put all publicans in jail for 13 years?

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16

Sandy

@edd41 ~ Whether you view ecstacy as dangerous or not is of no concern. The fact is that this man broke Guernsey Law and is now serving the sentence handed down under OUR law. I wonder if he would have tried importing into somewhere that takes a zero tolerance approach resulting in, as others have said, the death penalty? I suspect not – he probably thought Guernsey was a soft touch and has learned otherwise.

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18

Dani

Just to point out, ecstacy is probably more harmful now than it has ever been. It was one of the safer drugs but Im not going to say “safer than asprin”. Thats just silly.

That is because there is not much of it about as the chemicals needed to make are harder to obtain and people are being sold that meow meow stuff instead. Younger people who have never had ectstacy can’t tell. It is probably cut will lots of wonderful stuff too.

I do not feel sorry for this guy though. He knew the law, he broke it. 10,000 tablets is alot. Thats enough for roughly 1/6 of the population. He needs to take responsibility for his actions. Whinging about circumstances he brought on himself does not endear me whatsoever, it makes you wonder if he has actually learned his lesson.

It would be nice though if he could be in a Guernsey Prison, just so he could see his family. It must be hard on his wife and kids.

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20

colin

To the ecstasy supporters, it is completely irrelevant whether it is “safe” or not.

The law is the law whether you agree with it or not, all members of society are required to obey the law. Breaking a law because you disagree with it is no defence. If you don’t like a particular law you are welcome to campaign against it.

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22

nocon

I think Killroy got it right in the first comment.

If he comes from Scotland he can stay there, we don`t want him here. I hope he gets the message.

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24

Beanjar

I don’t believe ecstacy is safe and its certainly not legal so why does this career criminal deserve any sympathy whatsoever? If the ‘ecstasy is fun’ brigade ever do grow up and have teenagers of their own, lets see how much they enjoy seeing them targeted by drug pushers.

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26

Breda Shandy

as a Brit and former Guernsey resident, while i applaud the legislators intention to keep the island ‘safe’ by having a tough policy on drugs, the government’s (and local people’s) approach seems laughably out of touch at times.

The guy’s most pointed comment is that his sentence is longer than most people get for murder in Scotland. While UK sentencing for serious crime is often too soft, most sane people would concede that drug sentencing in Guernsey is ridiculously draconian.

These sentences ensure the street price of pills/coke/even canabis remains very high indeed in Guernsey – making it a very attractive option to drug dealers.

Youing people in Guernsey are no different to UK people in that they still want the drugs, and demand is probably even higher due to the boring, small town nature of the island. As such, there will always be a market, but criminals will be more attracted than ever given the lucrative rewards they can get on the island.

when i lived there, a huge amount of resources were being thrown at the ‘drugs war’ with both police and customs heavily funded in this regard. however, your own nurses had to pay for their healthcare in the hospitals where they worked, and it was impossible to get a bus either early in the morning or after about 8pm. Additionally, the streetlighting was like something out of a Charles Dickens book!!

In other words, priorities were all wrong.

Beautiful island, but some residents need to get out of the 1970s.

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28

Dave Haslam

Phil

Excellent Post

Breda Shandy

Another good post, glad to see that 2 people at least are able to get their head far enough above their copy of the Daily Mail to think it through fully rather than just spout laughable cliches and other uninformed bile.

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30

Dave

Good rot away! That will teach you to deal drugs in Guernsey, lucky you only had 13 years!!!

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32

coyoye

eggy bread

If I was you I’d stick to eating eggy bread. Another of the all drugs are wonderful so what’s your problem brigade. My daughter is a nurse and has to deal with the results of taking ecstasy, heroin, cocaine, you name it. She is children’s nurse and she sees them all..but not the drunks. Funny that since alcohol is a top poison and drugs are not. Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for Mr McKenna. He was smuggling. He broke the law. He knew the score. Plus he sounds to be having quite a cushy life so what is his problem. In any case Guernsey does not recognise UK law or jurisdiction. Well Mr McKenna, this is a two way process. So why should Guernsey bail you out? They can’t!!!!

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34

CJG

Come off it you lot! The bloke has done a lot of time and has been seperated from his family long enough, if he has kids I’m sure they’ve been affected by this too. I know that’s his own fault but enough is enough.

There are peadophiles doing less time than this and look what upset and continuing pain they have done to innocent children, disgusting creatures get half this sentence.

I’m sure he’s learnt his lesson, 8 years is a long time. He may have had desperate circumstances which led him to try and make money in this way, no need to throw the book at him!

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36

Phil

CJG

If only your point about paedophiles getting “half the sentence” was correct. In actual fact they normally get a fifth of the sentence, or a tenth maybe.

Coyote

Your point is at total odds with all studies done on the subject. Alcohol is responsible for far more social problems than all other drugs put together. Do some research rather than talking to a children’s nurse who’s personal experience is obviously severely limited.

Your other point about Guernsey not recognising UK law is equally laughable. Where do you think Guernsey takes its case law examples from?

I’m trying to work out who is the dimmer, you or Beanjar? It’s like asking the question “which is the most effective at producing hot air, a haricot or a butter bean?”

The two of you would have a riot if you got together, you could congratulate each other on your backward views and how the “war on drugs” has been such a worthwhile, cost effective policy.

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38

eggy bread

coyoye – I don’t think all drugs are wonderful.

I do however have an excellent working knowledge of statistics and risk and MDMA, though certainly not risk free, used sensibly and in moderation is safety than the majority of products available in a pharmacy.

I do find it worrying that you have no problem with youngsters drinking. If you REALLY think there is no problem with children drinking in Guernsey here are a couple of links:-

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2010/10/14/binge-drinking-12-year-olds-go-to-school-hung-over/

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2010/07/22/know-where-your-kids-are-we-dont-want-to-see-them-drunk/

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2010/11/24/our-parents-buy-our-alcohol-say-a-majority-of-12-and-13-year-olds/

…….. and unlike MDMA alcohol certainly HAS killed many children and 1000′s of adults in Guernsey alone.

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40

Phil

Beanjar

Drug use and drug abuse are two totally different things. A person who uses a drug recreationally and doesn’t develop a problem with it is completely different from someone who becomes dependent upon a drug and whose behaviour is adversely affected by it.

Think of the person who enjoys the odd drink compared to the hopeless alcoholic, or the person who smokes the odd cigarette compared to the 60 a day man. They are all drug users but two of them have developed a problem. Those examples are no different whichever drug you look at. Unless of course you don’t consider alcohol and tobacco to be drugs?

Oh, and yes I am from Guernsey, and yes I do normally like bean jar (provided that there are no carrots in it obviously).

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42

Matt

I think as usual these threads tend to drift off coarse.

Mr McKenna believes he is being victimised and treated un-fairly by the Guernsey parole system. Lets imagine that this may be the case. Unfortunatly unlike the UK or any other western Europeon nation he has no right of appeal or higher authority to go to, short of a Judical Review.

A Judical Review is extremely expensive and Mr McKenna’s case would be on legal aid, costing the island tens of thousands of pounds. Ultimatily he would be sucessful since the current parole system is not Human Right compliant or have any of the safe guards that the UK system has.

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44

Beanjar

pbfalla: “Great post Breda Shandy.”

Not really, you’re only saying that because you think she has joined your exodus – surely it doesn’t count if she’s not from here in the first place?

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46

coyote

Phil

you have to be a Guern since you resort to personal slagging off of those who have opinions with which you don’t quite agree. I also think you should seek medical advice about the complex you obviously have about beans.

on the subject of research.
if alcohol affects children as badly as drugs then why don’t the childrens hospitals see drunks as well as druggies.
YOU research Guernsey law. The island takes pride in ignoring and being completely different to the UK. The outstanding example is Habeas Corpus. EVERY democracy and some not so democratic has Habeas Corpus. Oh but I forgot. No need since all dissenters are as mad as beans anyway.

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48

Dave Haslam

Beanjar

Firstly, if as you claim you dont pretend to know much about the guernsey drug scene, how in the same post can you say that the island is largely drug free??

Even though I dont partake I can tell you that Guernsey is not largely drug free, sorry if that ruins yours and abc’s brunch!

Guernsey drug laws are not stopping drugs from reaching the streets, for every one that gets caught, umpteen are getting in uncaught.

The only thing Guernseys (and the UK’s for that matter) archaic drug laws are acheiving are making dealers take bigger risks, getting poorer quality and ergo more dangerous products and using more desperate people as “patsies” (of which I am convinced Gary Mckenna is) and the end result is more danger for everyone except the dealers themselves.

Unless you are naive enough to think that the man in jail is the one who was going to sell these drugs?

Education and sensible regulation is the key, and by that I mean proper education, not the scaremongering and closed mindedness that flies onto the pages when something like this happens, the type of closed mindedness that invariably makes the whole thing “sexier” and pushes kids into trying.

Of course you can keep saying everything is fine and convince yourself the system is working so that you can feel better about your entrenched position.

Oh and a final point, drug use and drug abuse are COMPLETELY different, and you may also be suprised to learn that you can abuse prescription drugs too!

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50

PW Fudgedonut

Just to clear up a few minor points with people. Substanes in their purest forms like MDMA and Marijuana are not damaging in small responsible doses. Unfortuanately tablets and powdered substances are often cut with all kinds of “other” powders ranging from talc to ketamine to rat poison. Most kinds of “solid” or “Rocky” marijuana is full of impurities and very very little THC (the active ingredient that gives people the high). Most kids now have no idea what good “drugs” feel like. They have been raised on rubbish and think that it is good. It is the same pretty much with alcohol as well to be fair. The amount of chemicals and impurities added to your average alcoholic drink virtually guarantees a poor experience. Compare the feeling a cheap bottle of vino creates to a quality one. Or a poor malt whisky to a proper 16 year old malt.
It is a fundamental human desire to get out of your head a little, has been for the majority of the human race since the dawn of time. The sooner we start embracing the fact that ALL mind altering substances are dangerous and start taking them responsibly the better. Lets face it you can’t walk out your front door in the UK and not be within 10 minutes drive of Class A drugs. When illicet substances are so prevalent across society “The War” on Drugs has failed miserably. It could be argued that it was never meant to succeed but that is another topic. I am glad that Guernsey has a strong stance on illegal substances but it also needs to deal with the serious alcohol abuse problem which is endemic.

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52

Terry Langlois

what I am most surprised about is that we are talking about ecstacy. Why does anyone want to take ecstacy in Guernsey? It is at its best when you go clubbing. The clubs here are rubbish.

I agree with abc – we should not forget that the drug scene here is very different from the UK. The UK needs to adopt a more pragmatic approach, not because it wants to be more liberal but because it is losing the battle. We are not losing the battle, so we should continue to follow our line of zero tolerance. It does not matter that we are out of step with other places.

The alcohol comparison is a red herring. It has been with us for centuries and is appreciated responsibly by the majority of society. The abuse of alcohol by the minority is not a reason to compare it with drug use.

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54

abc

in fact does anyone know of any stats? I read somewhere that we have 50 drug addicts receiving treatment, but that is hardly reliable…

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56

coyote

Phil

are you for real? A nurse knows nothing about her patients?!

I have done the research on Habeas Corpus which is why I don’t make the idiotic comment you have. Guernsey has refused on countless occasions to adopt this law. Although I have to admit that researching Habeas Corpus on Guernsey isn’t easy. The police, the Royal Court, the Greffe, all plead ignorance of it and even CAB have no information [at least they tried to help!] so I would suggest to you that maybe you are the ignorant one here, not me!

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58

Matt

Beanjar,
You’ll be please to know that 2010 heorin usage and deaths in the UK where some of the lowest for twenty or thirty years.

However the story at the top of this long thread is about Mr McKenna, and why he is still in prison.

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60

stat

If Guernsey doesn’t have a drug problem…….why would Mr McKenna try to import TEN THOUSAND pills to the island?

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62

sammy

Serve you right you low life , you got what you deserve . No sympathy from me .

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64

Dave Haslam

bcb

I never realised you had conducted thorough surveys of foreign drug use and the correlation between that and the amount of education involved?

If so why havent you mentioned this earlier?

Education NOT scaremongering, and sensible regulation is the way forward, and trust me I HAVE done studies into this.

You are ALWAYS going to have drug abuse, our penchant for draconian laws and the subsqequent “its all fine” sweeping under the carpet that follows merely exascerbates the problems for the people that are always going to be stuck in the loop.

No-one is saying there should be free for all, which is the usual stock answer towards anyone who promotes a more open legislative policy. Merely a more sensible review and revision of the law in correlation to what the effects of the current laws do, for the real people involved, not the statistics that help you sleep at night, the actual people.

Tobacco is a completely different kettle of fish, and the comparisons to other drugs are moot. Tobacco was massivly promoted and advertised for decades due to the tax take. Society as a whole is still suffereing from the effects of years and years of it being rammed down your throat everywhere you look. It also it is a more physically addictive and harmful substance than a great proportion of illegal drugs, many people who smoke one fag, invariably do so for the next 20 years, the pringles effect, if you will.

But then only education would have told you that!

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66

Terry Langlois

Phil – you are mistaking legality for social acceptability

The current situation with smoking illustrates that the two are not the same. It is legal to sit down next to someone on a park bench and light a cigarette. But you will be likely to get a disgusted look for doing so, no matter how polite or smartly dressed you are.

Just because law makers decided not to ban drugs centuries ago does not mean that it was seen as acceptable for people to get high. Opium dens were legal but were seen as places where the wasters would spend their time.

What I mean by “socially accepted norms” is that it is normal to serve alcohol to your guests at parties and special occasions. You just expect your guests to behave responsibly. I am not sure that there has ever been a period in time when it was normal for people to offer lines of coke or ecstacy tablets to their friends and family at the christening of their child, or even to offer opium or cannabis when it was legal.

I find your last paragraph of your post of 12.18 quite staggering and to me it betrays how messed up your thoughts are on this issue. Society does not willingly accept that some people will become alcoholics – it accepts that society finds alcohol to be normal and then hopefully provides support for the minority that cannot handle it. The benefit of protecting the few that would come from trying to ban it would be outweighed by the penalty imposed on the many. That is very different from consciously creating a situation where you take a drug that is not generally considered to be normal and then allow a percentage to become legalised drug addicts just so that other people can enjoy their drugs without the threat of prosecution.

The consequence of what you seem to be suggesting has to be increased drug use. Those that are addicts now would still be addicts under your system. Those that are put off regular drug use by the fact that it is not seen as normal may well increase their usage. Those that have not tried it will have one less reason not to do so.

I completely fail to see the positive in the path that you are advocating (aside from tax revenue, which is hardly a good reason for advocating a policy that is contrary to public health).

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68

St Marcouf

From my experience most people in the pro drugs brigade are drug users and I’ve learnt not to engage in the drugs debate with them because the drugs, especially cannabis, have induced such delusion and a lack of insight in them that they may talk with conviction but it is utter nonsense.

What they fail to accept in particular is that whilst it is a matter for them whether they want to risk harming themselves using illicit drugs, what isn’t a matter for them is the short and long term effects those drugs have on their personality, behaviour, motivation and reasoning which the rest of society has to put up with in the interim.

They also fail to understand that the legalisation of two evils (alcohol and tobacco)is no reason to legalise a third.

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70

Uncle Monty

I was schooled at Elizabeth College and then the Grammar School. I left around 2004 and I have to say at that particular time cannabis was incredibly easy to get hold of, especially at the college. I knew a couple of people who sold ecstasy (relatively cheaply) at the Grammar School too. If you think that people are put off by the stricter laws in Guernsey then you’ve got your head in the clouds. From experience with friends’ parents it’s those kinds of mums and dads who are utterly oblivious to what their kids are actually getting up to. There’s so much naughtiness associated with drug-taking that people will want to have a go and Guernsey kids have so much more disposable income than children in the UK that the higher prices don’t really present much of an obstacle.

Before I go off on one, I want to say that I know people who’ve died from drug use. It’s this that makes me so angry. The government (in the UK but even more so in Guernsey) has drug policy wrong and they can’t easily reform it. Education is the way forward rather than telling people what to do, but after all these years of hype, exaggeration and misinformation no government is able to radically and appropriately reform drug policy without losing political face and looking like fools. If you get people clued up rather than lying to them they’re more likely to make a sensible decision.
Anyway, the majority of drugs themselves aren’t particularly harmful; it’s the behavioural patterns which accompany the use (or abuse, in some cases) which tends to become problematic. Most of this comes about entirely because of government policy concerning drugs themselves and education about them, so it self-perpetuates. The governments of the world are wasting billions on trying to stop something that’ll always be going on. The Global Commission on Drug Policy admit that the war on drugs has failed and just released a report calling for legalisation of certain drugs and for the end of criminalisation of users. I think we should go a step further and legalise the lot. It would put an end to dealing and the associated proceeds, an end to the impurities which can potentially kill, and the crime committed by users to pay for the drugs would be significantly reduced as prices wouldn’t be so artificially high. The tax income from licensed sale could be used to tackle the problems behind the drug usage.
People will always take drugs. The sooner that this is accepted and dealt with then the better we can tackle the reasons why people take them. Reading some of this right-wing drivel on here is hilarious at first, but when I think about it properly it’s just sad. Some people are so convinced they’re right that no report, study or even flat-out proof will ever sway them. It’s you who are the problem; the pillars of society, the bastions of wisdom.

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72

bcb

Dave Haslam
No i don`t trust you have the answer, why should i? what makes you anymore right (or wrong) than myself?.

Have you tried going on and on (or educating) to a group of youngsters about drugs drink and fags? many if not most will think your a boring old git (i dont mean you personally) and take no notice. They already know the dangers and we still have all these problems. I wonder why that is?.
I will tell you why, its because they`ve heard it all before so many times they dont even listen.

I lived amongst people for a few years where there was virtually no education on drugs and i noticed there was hardly any drug problems. Ofcourse i could be wrong but that was what i observed.

Just to be clear i haven`t a clue what the answer is and i`m not even sure there is one.

Oh i would have mentioned it earlier but i was too stoned :).

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74

Phil

Really

You make a very valid point. Killers, rapists and paedophiles serve far less time in jail than people convicted of offences involving drugs proved to be less harmful than alcohol and tobacco.

Does that really make much sense?

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76

Paul Le Page

“People will always take drugs. The sooner that this is accepted and dealt with then the better we can tackle the reasons why people take them.”

What an excellent comment Uncle Monty. Taking mind altering substances has been around since year dot; it is WHY people take these substances at a damaging level that should interest us.

Personally I’ve yet to make up my mind about the legalisation of drugs but the case for it has a lot of merit in principle and so I’m prepared to listen.

The problem we get is that a grown up debate on the subject is almost impossible as long as certain elements categorically refuse to even listen to the other point of view.

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78

Terry Langlois

Phil

Why are you talking about the UK? We are talking about Guernsey. You will see from my posts above that I think that we need the recognise the differences.

The arguments for legalised regulated drugs is based on pragmatism – i.e. the current war on drugs is not achieving the goal of looking after public health, so a different tack is needed. That argument has merits in places like the UK. But I see no evidence that we are losing the “war on drugs” in Guernsey. In my view, the current policy is doing pretty well. Prohibition does not lead to zero usage, but as long as it leads to less usage than legalisation then it is working.

But you then ask the question of why I should try to deny others the opportunity to try drugs – which leads me to assume that you are not trying to promote legalised regulation of drugs as a means of improving the control of drugs, but rather as a means to allow people to take drugs more freely. If so, then we are coming at this from very different angles.

There was a time in my life when I used recreational drugs on a fairly regular basis. I enjoyed the sensation, I was attracted by their potential, but I became aware that these drugs were having a most detrimental effect on my mental ability and my motivation. I stopped, but many do not see that and so do not stop. This is why I think that drugs need to be controlled. Their immediate positives are too attractive to allow people to choose whether to take them or not.

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80

St Marcouf

“People will always take drugs” – yes, so long as they remain available.

“The sooner that this is accepted…” – it is already accepted, just as it is accepted that people will always murder, rape and steal.

“…and dealt with…” – it is already being dealt with, the article at the top of this page refers to one method.

“…then the better we can tackle the reasons why people take them” – we already know the reasons, they concern basic pharmacology, physiology and psychology.

“Taking mind altering substances has been around since year dot” – murder, rape and theft have been around since time immemorial but that doesn’t make them any the more acceptable or worthy of legalisation.

“…a grown up debate on the subject is almost impossible as long as certain elements categorically refuse to even listen to the other point of view” – a reasoned dismissal of a point of view does not equate to not listening to it.

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82

Paul Le Page

St Marcouf

“a reasoned dismissal of a point of view does not equate to not listening to it.” – I totally agree however sadly when it comes to the drugs debate not everyone responds in that fashion. A lot of reaction on BOTH sides is knee-jerk, entrenched and more based on sentimental presuppositions than reason.

Also, do you really consider what is socially “acceptable” is a good yardstick? In many “respectable” quarters of society drunkenness is seen as pretty socially acceptable (consider the office Christmas party for example) and yet look how much local criminal activity is connected to it that directly harms other people?

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84

Paul Le Page

Dave Haslam – you’re absolutely right and I don’t see any sensible groups coming forward with a reasonable case for a free-for-all.

If any drugs are to be legalised there would have to be regulation and in my view also taxation. Some of the revenue from such taxation could be earmarked for education, as well as treatment and rehabilitation facilities.

Interestingly enough one potential benefit of legalisation raised by the pro-legalisation lobby is that (providing taxation revenue was appropriately used) treatment facilities for those who misuse substances might well be better off in a legal and regulated environment than at present.

As I haven’t done enough research to be certain I’ve yet to formulate a view on that. It certainly warrants and deserves closer inspection though.

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86

bruce Mac G

In reply to the posts by the likes of Kilroy and WH Bonney and others i can only suggest the following:
1. that you highly intelligent people ( i am guessing locals ) have never ventured farther than St Peters and thus Excessive quantities of Breda and Cigarettes are perfectly acceptable.
2.you probably adhere to the death penalty for an individual wanting to smoke a joint or take a pill – whether in the privacy of their own home or not
3.you perhaps think GSY is still a safe place to live and its the outsiders ( from UK/portugal/eastern europe that harm the island
4.that having 500 people registered unemployed available to work ( all locals i assume) is acceptable despite the fact there are thousands of hard working foreigners on short term licenses that are prepared to work hard
5. The problem with GSY is there are too many insular, unintelligent,narrow minded people who think they a lot but in truth know little and have had it far too easy for far too long

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88

St Marcouf

Paul Le Page – as I mentioned earlier, just because alcohol has been legalised is absolutely no reason or argument for drugs to be legalised too. It’s akin to arguing that murder should be legalised just because cannibalism is (still) legal.

Dave Haslam – you or others have argued that drugs should be legalised because they have been used since the stone ages, and in the same breath you are concerned that society is not culturally advanced enough to legalise them. A culturally advanced society wouldn’t be using drugs at all.

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90

Phil

Dave Haslam

Couldn’t agree more with the last paragraph of your 10.04am post.

St Marcouf displays nothing more than ignorance and stupidity with these ridiculous comparisons between drug policy and the legalisation of murder, rape etc.

Why should a person be prosecuted simply because their drug of choice differs from those such as alcohol and tobacco?

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92

Dave Haslam

Paul LP

Another of the potential benefits of decriminalisation and regulation, would be a reduction in drug related crime.

Basically because draconian drug clamp downs cause higher prices, this invetibaly results in the unfortunate side effect of extremely addicted users stealing to fund their habits More cause and effect that the closed minded cant see. Allied to this the fact that many drug addicts when they start may not even be known for their problems as yet, so the stealing comes as a complete suprise.

Make the drugs available at an affordable price from a regulated outlet (the soon to be vacated castel hospital would be perfect for example), but only on the proviso that as soon as you buy it, you accept that you are now “in the system” and the tax revenue taken from your purchase is going to be put to use trying to get you off the drug.

And this can also provide more help and counselling for relatives/ loved ones who’d lives are also affected by the use, by identifying the user quicker it would get them and their families into the system quicker so would also hopefully stem the extent that the user gets addicted and the extent of the associated social issues.

With regards to assault etc, certainly the vast proportion of “party drugs” have no associated violence problems. In fact cannabis has the exact opposite effect.

But if you were to report every time a drunk person assaulted another in the same manner that a drug related incident is reported, then suffice to say, there would be a different attitude towards our beloved alocohol. But then we cant have that can we? So most alcohol assaults are footnotes on page 9 whereas anything even remotely drug related would be plastered on the front of the press.

This whole thing is about perception Paul, we need to change peoples perceptions, but until we open our minds to alternatives then we will continue to have the bigots.

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94

Terry Langlois

Dave Haslam – what you propose has some merit in dealing with heroin addicts but I don’t see it having any relevance for ecstasy. People won’t be interested in being “in the system” as they have no interest in giving up the drug. They are not addicted in the way that heroin addicts are addicted, they simply like taking the drug in order to have a good time. I cannot see how a regulated system of legalised ecstasy would work – what sort of regulation would alter the current situation but without being the “free for all” that, apparently, no-one is advocating?

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96

Terry Langlois

Dave Haslam – what on earth makes you think that just saying that ecstasy is “only available through one outlet” will work?!!

If the rationing actually restricts supply below demand then you will end up with a black market and all the illegality that goes with it (pretty much as we have now). If the rationing satisfies demand then you have a free-for-all. Where is the control?

People take ecstasy through choice, not addiction. You either ban it or you legalise it, I cannot see a middle ground.

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98

Dani

Dave Haslam

What I have is a FACT and it is very arrogant to say it is a Jeremy Kyle show scare tactic. It is offensive to demean what I am saying in this way.
It is listed on all drug awareness websites, adverts and is witnessed in every day life. You even say it occurs youself in your own comment.
It is dangerous to potential users of a drug to downplay the negative effects. I have no intention of perpetuating a incorrect stereotype for the benefit of your arguement.

The quality of the cannabis will not effect whether this is experienced or not. Again this is a matter of FACT. Neither will the length of time someone has been a user affect this, all though it will make it more likely.

It is also a fact that even if pure cannabis is smoked without tobacco there are many chemicals in it that irritate and can harm the lungs.

I would also like to point out the ever growing stronger link with schizophrenia being developed in younger users and in those predispositioned to mental illness. Depression can also occur in long term use. I want you to consider the costs of treating these people, they are long term conditions and whilst being treated these individuals cannot work. I want you to think about the effect of having these illnesses on their lives and on their family and friends.

There are many other areas where research is showing negative effects. Reduced sperm count in men, interfering with a womans reproduction cycle and the accelerated thinning of the bones.

Now I would like to remind you that mentioning these things is not scare tactics but putting all the facts out there so people who are considering whether legal use should be allowed can make a more informed opinion. Mentioning negative effects of a drug is not a scare tactic.

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100

Dave Haslam

Terry

Dont try that old chestnut with me just because I havent got time to go through the ins-and outs of how usage will be monitored, at what levels of usage is considered enough to be put on medical records etc etc and what level of each drug is considered a dose.

This isnt a debating tactic Terry, as much as you would love it to be.

The reason why I have used the Jeremy Kyle and Daily mail comparisons, is because unfortunately, that is largely the level of ignorance that you are shooting at. And largely the level of a heck of a lot of the above comments, so dont give the whole “intellectual superiority” jibe at me just because I decided to throw a few barbs at the ignorance on display above.

You have already stated that some aspects of what I am proposing have merit, but suddenly I’ve offered nothing of merit!

All in the same day no less And you accuse me of interesting debating tactics!

Dani

I did say “dont take offence” so well done on that!

A couple of questions for you.

Where is the information listed again, and can the presentation of it be deemed impartial??

I’m sorry but Drug awareness websites, sadly for the most part are not impartial. Nor are the way the results of their “studies” are handled. You are passing off agenda driven studies in capital as FACT. When a lot of independent medical research is saying otherwise. So we will have to agree to disagree on most of what you are saying, because I suspect no amount of me telling you will convincve you otherwise.

Yes I did state there are dangers, there are dangers in everything we do in life. But what is also FACT is that Cannabis is proven to be safer than Alcohol, Nicoteine, Barbituates Opiates, to name but a few all freely available from the local supermarket or the docs prescription pad.

Also I would strongly refute your fact that the quality of the cannabis has no difference to the side effects, that is just wrong, sorry, but it is.

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102

Terry Langlois

Dave Haslam – as I said above, regulated access to drugs has merits for heroin addicts, but I was saying that I cannot see how it could work with ecstasy (which is where this discussion started).

You are not helping the debate by assuming that those who do not agree with you are Daily Mail reactionaries. As stated above, I’ve taken a fair few pills of ecstasy in my time. I know why I tried it, why I kept doing it and why I stopped. If you cannot convince me that there is a coherent plan with legalising ecstasy then you have no chance.

Of course you do not need to explain yourself or your proposals to me. If you don’t have the time that is your prerogative (although I note that you have sufficient time to post some lengthy comments). But if you cannot back up your arguments you have no basis for criticising those who cannot see the point that you are making.

But trying to decipher your proposals it seems to boil down to the fact that people can legally get hold of as much ecstasy as they like (you say that demand never outstrips supply) but that it goes on medical records. So what happens then? Do people keep taking as much as they like, without control? Or if people want to by-pass controls do they just buy them on the black market?

Rehab programmes won’t work with ecstasy as the users do not see themselves as addicts. They don’t want rehab, they want a good night out.

I am trying to see how it works but all I can see is young kids getting their hands on as much ecstasy as they like, which I don’t think is a good idea because, as I know from personal experience, young kids consider themselves invincible and live for the moment. They are not the best at deciding what is in their own best long term interests. I’d just like you to help me see if there is merit in your plans regarding ecstasy.

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104

Mr Lloyd

Did anyone see the Jeremy Kyle special on how Cannabis can cause Scizophrenia??

I found it particularly amusing in light of the above exchange between Dani & Haslam.

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106

Dave Haslam

Dani

Here you go seeing as you wont point me in the direction of any of your sources, have one of mine!!

This is as impartial as it gets btw!

You need to register to read it, but its free and I’m sure if you are that interested……

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60464-4/abstract#

I was asking for your sources because I wanted to point out to you that they probably are not impartial, your refusal to name them merely confirms my fears.

I’m not belittling or mocking any survey, I’m just merely asking you to use your noggin when it comes to any potential agenda behind a survey. Really, I thought I’d made that obvious, then again, when are so ready to jump to conclusions it doesnt suprise me that you missed that point.

Oh and I found your last paragraph amusing. If not a little bit petty coming from someone attempting to come accross as learned. True colours shining through maybe? But then I find thats usually the case with the pseudo’s!

Terry

There is a difference between lenghthy comments and the type of detail needed to do it justice.

I have a little bit of time so I will garnish a little bit of detail.

For starters, a dosage level is based on a persons age, sex, and size. They will be allowed to have what is basically enough for a damn good trip but not enough to be medically detrimental. The regularity of allowed dosages would be a bane of contention, in that clearly in the case of a party drug you wont be needing it every day, however gauging what is and isnt reasonable safe use is dependent on a variety of factors, such as the persons employment status, thier hours, background, their personality type, all taken into account so as they are not getting too much. Oh and people can only get their own.

Not getting enough is a difficult one, some people will always say, “thats not enough, I want double” and head to the black market, however, it is my contention that once this system has been in place for a while, people will soon become cautious of the illegal E-run, particularly if hefty on the spot fines are levied for anyone in possesion of a non-legal product.

It will only take a couple of people fined and eventually people will be happy with what they get in a legal environment rather than risk the E-run just for an extra hit. Eventually we’d be rid of the entire seondary market.

Medical records become involved when a user exceeds a certain amount of drugs, but then this must be confidential, as potential employers could have a field day, however, it is my beleif that putting in on your record would automatcially make you think more about your own health, and think twice about whether you need to trip this weekend as the doctor is going to nag you the next time you have a cold.

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108

Ray

Whilst it’s quite entertaining to follow the Dave v Terry battle,at a time when our leaders are clamping down on the sale of cigarettes ( never mind whacky backy)do either of you expect things to change on the Guernsey illegal drugs front in the next twenty/thirty years?

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110

Terry Langlois

Dave – thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I certainly wasn’t looking for details such as exact dosages, but the principles that you have outlined at least make it possible to see what you are proposing.

However, I still don’t quite see the point of it all, or see it working in practice. You seem to assume that the black market would just not take off, but we know from the sale of black market ciggies in the UK how easy it is to circumvent the system. People would be getting pills “for themselves” and selling them to people who need extras. Once sold, there would be no way of knowing whether a particular pill was obtained via the system or on the black market. Same applies to the under 18s. If you lock them out of the system, they will get them on the black market. If the police cannot enforce drugs laws against the use of ecstasy now, what hope when a lot of users will be legal? The police simply would not bother.

But my main concern is the fundamental message that this system sends out – that taking ecstasy is absolutely fine just as long you only take the amount that “we”, the people in authority, say you can take. That is not a healthy message in my view.

I certainly don’t think that ecstasy causes much physical harm, but I do think that the knock-on consequences of party drugs are detrimental. It is damned hard to dance till 8am on just water, beer and vodka red bull. It is easy with the aid of a few pills. Missing a night’s sleep every other weekend is not good for your health or for the nation’s productivity. Going on an alcoholic bender as a young man makes you seriously rough the next day, but come Monday morning and you’re good to go to work again. Take a few pills on Saturday night, dance till dawn, chill on Sunday and you won’t have a big hangover but you’ll be feeling the effects into the week. I have found myself still dancing when going to work on a Monday morning, standing on the train platform with beats going through my head and forcing my body to not move with them. A nice feeling, but it certainly did my employer no good. If I had not stopped, my career would never have taken off and I would not have the more fundamentally fulfilling life that I have now. I left plenty of friends behind in London who were just continuing on that track – partying hard into their late 20′s and 30′s, having a good time but wasting their potential. Your system would appear to encourage that kind of behaviour and I think that it is a crying shame.

Ray – absolutely not!

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112

Terry Langlois

Dave – I do see what you are saying and certainly agree that dogma of whatever kind is never good for a grown up debate or for ensuring that policies achieve the best results.

I suspect we’ve taken the discussion as far as we can.

All the best.

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114

Dave Haslam

Terry

Thanks for reading it all and giving it consideration!!

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116

Ray

Mr Lloyd

I believe your 11.39 post was tongue in cheek

However most of it happens to be 100% accurate because I read about it in the Daily Mail

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