New uniforms for high schools
Tuesday 28th June 2011, 3:28PM BST.
A group of Les Beaucamps High School pupils in their current uniform.
PUPILS at Guernsey’s high schools will in future have to wear blazers, shirts and ties.
The Education Department announced the new policy this afternoon.
It wants the high schools, the secondary phase at St. Anne’s and Le Murier to adopt a more formal uniform to replace the existing polo shirt and sweatshirt option.
The department believes that different uniforms create a divide between the colleges, Grammar School and high schools.
All schools are now considering how best to introduce their chosen version of the new uniform and will be consulting students and parents about the details.
- More on this story in Wednesday’s Guernsey Press
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Would rather see skirts and trousers that fit the wearer and proper shoes instead of sports, boots or ballet pumps.
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I am a student at les beaucamps high school and i think blazers and ties are too posch for the school, because at the end of the day we are only a high school, not a higher school like collage, and the main point is they are too expensive, on a servey in my form room everyone said just wear a shirt, there is no need for blazers !!!!
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I will have a son and daughter at les beaucamps in 2012.What a rediculous idea education has dreamt up this time.I see no reason to change the clothes and if you make it compulsary you will have a long wait for me to buy them as we cannot afford those prices.Having put 1 child at grammar i know its expensive so if you want this you pay for it,not helping only supplementary people but everyone on limited means.its ok for those on sup they have it all,summer and winter uniforms paid.
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What planet is the Education Department on! A blazer and tie are one of the least useful inventions on planet earth, just as most adults and companies are ditching them, for more suitable and comfortable, we are expecting children to wear them. AND there will be an extra cost factor! It’s tough enough making ends meet as a parent in Guernsey without this extra tax. I would rather spend extra money improving the learning facilities at the schools than this riduculous policy change. Education please rethink, please focus on the needs of the children not some pseudo-class status issue. A lot of children prefer the High Schools because of the more relaxed learning environment. Utter nonsense decision by out of touch bureaucrats and politicians. Why not consult parents first?
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Good idea – about time they uopdated them, but they had better be quick as surely parents will be looking to buy for new year 7′s soon and would rather buy the new uniform than replace it all in a year.
There’s bound to be a lot of moaning over the cost – but I’m all for it, my kids go to La Mare and they don’t even have a logo on their sweatshirts or polo shirts like the other secondary schools.
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i think its a total waste of time surely its more important for the pupils to be comfortable , i have had to wear both the blazer , shirt and tie and also the polo shirt and the polo shirt wins hands down , it is not going to lessen the divide between schools because its still a different uniform the only way would be to all wear identical colours etc which would be pathetic , have the education not got anything better to do such as finding ways to deal with bullies instead of this
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@ Parent
Agreed, but think there is a more important issue here with uniforms; uniformity is a great leveller on the status front.
A lot of the senior school ‘children’ though, and that is what they are, who wear a formal uniform seem to be ‘adapting’ their uniforms though, to try and look as if they are just out of an American college type movie, St Trinians or rapper style gig – tight mini skirts, ballet pumps and ties pulled down to half mast, trousers pulled down to beyond waist level,(how do they figure that continual hitching up, but not too far, is appealing ect). To most of us it looks rather silly and immature, whilst in school uniform – plenty of time for style icon expression to come into being, after school, at weekends and so forth.
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more drivel from education, more things to pick on the kids for, no tie, lost tie, tie not done up crrectly, more expense for parents lost blazers and going to be more expensive than a lost sweatshirt, polo shirts and sweatshirts are fine if it is not broken dont fix it, watch out people, next year it`ll be straw hats!
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Good idea. I had to wear skirts blouses and blazers when i went to school and it saved a lot of time in the mornings not having to decide what to wear or worrying if Betty Gotitall was going to wear a more expensive and trendy outfit than you. It also saves money in the long run as you don’t wear out your normal clothes as quick. Plus it’s smarter and more professional looking than these polo shirts and in the case of girls, non existent skirts…(how the heck do you sit down in one of them without flashing your “bits” anyway….that’s just wrong….and we allow our children to advertise to pervs by letting them wear skirts that are no bigger than a head band…..really)??
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It hasn’t taken long for the predictable comments re cost to coming rolling in from parents. You can bet your bottom dollar though that these same parents are in the front of the queue to buy the latest trainers, football strip and other ‘necessary’ branded gear.
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Are the States helping with funding?
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I think it is a great idea the new change in school uniform, it will teach children how to dress properly for when they enter the work place, as most children have no idea how to present themselves in the work place. At the end of the day people are moaning about the cost of the uniforms, but you still have to by uniforms whatever they wear. I am a mother with 2 children at high school and yes it will cost money to kit them out, but they will all look the same.How nice it will look rather than skirts up to the girl’s backside ext.
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I can’t believe this for Le Murrier children with sensory issues it will be a nightmare and reduce levels of independence for those with motor skill problems. Expense is a major issue as well for parents, personally I don’t think it will make them any smarter, enforcing rules like wearing the proper uniform which is clean and ironed would make more difference. Surely education has some work to do instead of thinking of these ridiculous money costing ideas, oh wait they are part of the States perhaps that is their remit!!
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Even in modern day Guernsey our human rights supposedly allow us freedom of thought, conscience, religion and expression, which gives, for example, Muslim and Sikh children free rein to wear peculiar clothes and headgear to school at the whim of their religions.
It is surprising therefore that schools these days are able to continue justifying forcing pupils to wear school uniforms, particuarly when they do not make a jot of difference to education and are wasteful on the world’s resources.
It is also surprising in these modern times of so-called equality that boys and men are still forced to suffocate at all times of the year in trousers, long-sleeved shirts, jackets and strangling ties.
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Although I am all for having a better uniform for all high school pupils, is the blazer really necessary? – surely a shirt, tie and v necked jumper would be better, its not practical to wear a blazer all day as it’s so bulky, so then it has to be put somewhere, and my kids never seem to have room in their lockers for anything.
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Burdock: it didn’t take long for your type of predictable comment. I have two sons at high school who will be affected, who do not have branded gear. How many children at high school do you have? Please let’s have a sensible informed discussion not just based on prejudices, which sadly seems to be the rational behind Carol Steere’s statement.
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As has already been pointed out many working environments are moving towards a more informal style of dress. I worked in one of Guernsey’s largest finance corporations who (at the time of leaving) no longer required a tie for those below management level or staff who were not meeting clients.
Stiletto also makes a good point that having a formal style of uniform is no guarantee of smart appearance – I’m no old prude but I’d certainly not let my daughter out to school dressed like some of the students I’ve seen. In fact the irony is that those from the High Schools often look far smarter than many others – particularly Grammar, whose students often look more like the cast of a St Trinians movie or High School Musical.
The idea of a uniform is good in the sense that it is a great leveller of those from different ends of the economic spectrum. The choice of uniform is debatable though and I think a better idea would be to have a less formal uniform but with tighter enforcement of standards.
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Hold your horses people……….the same bloggers whining about declining standards in education, behaviour and values are the same ones railing against an effort to instil some sort of pride and self worth into the Secondary School Education system via pride in ones school and dress code.
Can’t have it all ways. And, as a parent, it’s been a long time coming and I welcome it.
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I think it is an absoule joke. Is this what the ministers are getting paid for?, to come up with bright ideas that cost us the tax payer more. With electricity rising and all the normal costs of living it is getting harder and harder, then you have a stupid idea like this.
The amount of school jumpers my children lose, I will be buying blazers every month at a cost of approx £50 a blazer. Ok for those who get FREE uniforms, no wonder they think its is a good idea. Not only do I pay for my childrens but have to subsidse theirs!. Come on Carol Steer surely you can do better than that in you job, this discission probably took 4 to five meetings over lunch paid for by the tax payer.
I think the working parent of today is having a hard enough job as it is with cost of living, childcare, fuel need I go on.
Do you think they will be brighter children for a blazer!? Will the kids behave more?
The education just do not know what there doing. For years we asked for a swimming pool at st Peter Port Secondary, finally after money raised we got one, to only have the school shut within years, all the expense of moving children and new uniforms for St Sampsons High and then they say St Peter Port may reopen! COME ON MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!! AND STOP WASTING OUR MONEY RUNNING ROUND IN CIRCLES do you job or re-sign. I will not be voting for Mrs Steer next election.
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What next? It is bad enough that you have to pay for a polo shirt with school Logo, when they can be picked up at Asda/Tesco etc for under fiver.
There is always an stupid person sitting behind a desks, thinking these ridulous ideas up, and guess what were paying them!
Keep it as it is, It has worked well enough for the last 30 years.
They will be changing again in few years, adding a tie or possibly losuing the who uniform. Then you have peer pressure and branded clothes. They say you have to be rich to live in Guernsey, I don`t know where this idea is coming from because my money is running out and there is not enough hours in the week to work!
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Question for Neil,
are you indicating that if you were a sweatshirt and polo that you wont have any sense of worth.
Why would you feel better in a blazer than the normal standard uniform, that I might add has proved efficent enough over the years.
St Sampsons gained a High in the name and dropped Secondary,what for? because it sounds better? ok lets drop a sweatshirt and gain a blazer, looks better?
It is a standard states run school not a university or college that fees are paid privately for by the parent. not everyone can afford this change! Listen to the kids do they want it?
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Cost of a swaetshirt – approx £15
Cost of a Blazer – approx £50
£35 difference. 2 children £70 etc etc.
Some please answer this, how is the Social security going to find this extra money for all the FREE UNIFORMS allocated each year?
Will this mean our insurance stamp will go up, pension down? to help them.
Thank you for a wonderful and money saving idea Carol Steer NOT!
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I think it’s a brilliant idea. And if Matthew’s comment “we’re only a high school” doesn’t make every adult on this island want to increase his sense of pride in his school and in his own potential, then we all should be ashamed of ourselves.
A blazer and tie will, even replaced yearly, only cost the same as a couple of takeaway meals, probably less than a month’s subscription to Sky telly. It should make the kids look and feel smarter, it also differentiates between the classic primary uniform of sweatshirt and polo shirt and a more grown up approach to education.
I can’t find any conclusive research that wearing a blazer and tie will improve the children’s behaviour, reduce bullying or make the kids instantly gain 10 IQ points. But it does mean that when the High Schools and the Grammar School and the Colleges come together for Maths competitions or Geography quizzes or workshops and seminars, the kids will have an equality of dress. They’ll start on an even playing field. What they do after that is down to the kids themselves and the quality of teaching and most importantly, the quality of parenting.
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Asda School Uniform,approx
pack 2 polo shirts = £5 (no logo)
Black Trousers x 2 = £10
Shoes + £10
Sweatshirt x 2 £10
PE Kit (shorts & Polo)= £ 10
Trainers = £10 approx total £55
Guernsey uniform
2 x polo shirts (must have logo) = £30
2 x trouser = £30
Shoes = £30
Trainers =£20
PE Kit (shorts & Polo) = £20
Sweatshirts x 2 (must have logo) +£30
approx total £160 per child
and they want blazers which cost more. This would be acceptable if we had an Asda over here, or the children could where shirts with no logo only this on blazer or sweatshirt but this is not the case. the logo has to be on every shirt and these are £15 each.
How is this going to work out better for us.I can do the math seems the education cannot.
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The current uniforms look scruffy. Polo shirts are allowed to go untucked and jumpers are not very heard wearing outer material. The kinds of jobs that most people go in to require emplyees to wear smart clothes, if not suits. It’s teaching the students the importance of presentation and taking pride in their appearance, something they will need in the working world once they have left school.
The cost is understandably an issue, perhaps something the Education Department needs to take in to account before announcing what the actual uniforms will be? Cheaper alternatives can be bought from the UK (including blazers) and the crest pockets stitched on. Blazers will last longer than jumpers so, whilst the initial cost will be higher, in the long run it will last longer than the current uniform options.
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Just remember all you irate parents that you were the ones who brought these little darlings into this life.
YOU are the ones who should have thought ahead as to the cost of raising children until they can support themselves and YOU are the ones that should teach your little darlings to look after their clothes and take some pride in their turnout, even down to cleaning their own “sensible” shoes each evening.
The costs will not change that much because you won`t have to buy the other uniform when you replace it with the new one.
Pleading poverty doesn`t go far either when you probably go on holidays abroad, have plasma TVs, X boxes for the kids, and live on takeaways and junk food.
Respect for the school, the family and mostly FOR THEMSELVES is what you should be instilling in your children.
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Well said Mrs R.
As a parent of children re-located from st.Peter Port school, i think the Education department have pulled the wool over the eyes of us Guernsey residents.
Surely opening St.Sampsons high with 760 pupils with NEW uniforms etc etc should have been the time to discuss ‘POLICY’and ‘UNIFORMS’
and maybe some current deputies could research how the current ‘ Education policy’ got thro’ the States of Deliberation. St.Peter Port school was not fit for purpose and a new school was needed?
Now, it can be refurbished for higher education?
Maybe some civil servants in Education should be questioned on the bigger picture.
Build a performing arts centre, being a higher priorty than secondary schools in general.
But thats how ‘some’ civil servants work. Get the least important projects approved first and the really essential projects will get thro’ the States with plenty of support, because their long over-due.!!
Some days i just wish States deputies could be stronger and control their staff, rather than the staff controlling the deputies.!!
and as for the new Les Beaucamps high school, i hope Education have stipulated ‘Hard hats’ as part of the uniform.!!
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Neil – I agree with your sentiments but not the application of them.
The current state of many wearing more formal school uniform (especially Grammar) doesn’t indicate a pride in their school or appearance – quite the contrary actually. There also seems little point broadening the scope of formal uniforms if schools such as Grammar (and parents) don’t bother to enforce it properly – although I do accept there’s little teachers can do outside of school.
Surely it’s not a matter of the style of uniform worn; it’s simply a matter of deciding on a dress code that is fit for purpose and enforcing that…and in today’s society I’d argue that smart trousers and a polo shirt is perfectly acceptable – or perhaps smart trousers and an open neck shirt.
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Emma – absolutely spot on!
Also having a strict and formal uniform code at school (with the right ethos) does have a marked effect on disipline and results.
To those moaning about rights etc – sorry but life is about rules. Working for a living is about rules. Bringing your children up correctly is about rules. Sending your children to school is about rules…
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Just a thought folks, for those of you that are concerned about additional uniform costs.
How much do you reckon you have shelled out this year alone on very expensive football team supporter strips? And, how about all those must have status designer trainers, swim wear, tracksuits, etc, etc; don’t tell me that if your child is into these materialistic sport goods, that you haven’t been pestered into oblivion and then shelled out, regardless.
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A few years ago I exhibited at the Beau Sejour Careers Convention. The difference between the High School students and the ones from Grammar and the colleges was very noticeable, not only in what they were wearing but also in the way that they carried themselves. If I’d been one of those High School kids (and I was once in pre-sweatshirt days) then I’m certain I would have felt a degree of implied inferiority, almost as if my uniform was marking me out in society as being second rate. I know that we shouldn’t pay too much attention to appearances and it’s the individual inside that’s important but the reality is, in all walks of life, that we do.
On another note, at this same careers convention I remember seeing a few incredibly scruffy types loitering about. I imagined that they’d probably been told to attend by Social Security. Alas these weren’t the unemployed, these were the High School teachers! If the kids are going to get a makeover then make sure the teachers are also told to sharpen up their act.
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Enviroman
Yes, but the school was opened under a local head, and now we have an imported one!!!
I agree about the way the performing arts centre was ‘smuggled’ through
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If there is such a problem differenciating with the private schools and public schools on uniforms,why don’t all the schools do away with the blazer and tie.
Is there a problem with wearing a polo shirt and trousers?
Does it make education any different?
Just be comfortable, not snobbish.
It doesn’t make any difference to learning.
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Can anyone explain why as Mike Collins says wearing a jacket and tie is properly dressed? Who decides that it is only that style of uniform provides “esteem and respect” (Carol Steere). It is not the clothes that people wear but what they are like on the inside that really matters. That is what we should be teaching our children.
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I’m a fairly recent Grammar School leaver and I gotta say, I quite liked my uniform. Yeah it was expensive for my parents, but I felt like being at that school was a real achievement for me (particularly since I worked so hard on my 11+), and the style of the uniform only enforced that more. I did tend to be quite scruffy (top button undone, loose tie, untucked shirt) for a lot of the time (although the teachers did enforce uniform rules quite strongly when they saw us looking like that), but a lot of people did too. As we entered sixth form, I noticed a big change in the people around me. With the freedom to wear their own clothes, provided it’s smart, a lot of the previously scruffy people were tucking their shirts in, wearing their best ties etc (because it was no longer a forced uniform, but your own clothes, and your own style). It also bridged the gap between teacher/pupil and made them seem more approachable and human, but this was only a good thing as we got older and more mature in the sixth form.
I did look ridiculous in my first year at Grammar, wearing a two-sizes-too-big blazer, but it ended up being a good move by my parents – lasted the whole 5 years until sixth form ;)
With all of that said, I’m all in favour of keeping it the way it is. The secondary school kids are happy with their polo’s and the Grammar/College kids are happy with their uniforms. Well, as happy as they will be with any type of uniform!
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“are you indicating that if you were a sweatshirt and polo that you wont have any sense of worth.”
Nope, the point wasn’t that extreme. But I’m sure there is a correlation between dress sense, pride, attitude and discipline.
Anecdotal evidence in business: It’s relativley well understood that dress-down days equals less productivity. Ask any firm that bills in units.
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I think that it is sensible to have a smarter appearance.
When you see how some of the school-goers look today, they are a mess – whilst I was at St Sampsons and didn’t have a blazer, I had a smart uniform and was expected to look smart – would have been expected to go home and get changed if I didn’t.
We have had some come in to our office on work experience and they quite clearly have never been told or don’t have a clue how they should dress for work.
I accept that some offices are a little more flexible with dress-code, however there are standards and wearing the uniform makes the children respect that more and think about it more.
I do feel sorry on for the additional cost thing, however the other side of that argument is that you would be buying some form of clothing for your children any way and a blazer means that for the majority of time, they wouldn’t need a coat when at school.
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Mark Guille
I fail to see why the question ‘how many children do you have at High School?’ has any relevance to my comment. For the record the answer is none.
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Lots of interesting comments here especially regarding costs. I admit when I first heard this I thought no way can we afford this and to be honest it still does concern me. My daughter is at secondary school and we’ll have to update her uniform this year before going back as its getting smaller and a little bit scruffy. Next summer, no doubt we’ll have to replace her uniform again for similar reasons, new uniform notwithstanding.
One thing that concerns me are the white shirts. Very cheap and inexpensive we’re being told…..yeah right. They are now, that is until next year when retailers double the price because of all the extra demand…and no doubt blaming higher costs on increased freight, cotton shortages due to fire/plague/pestilience etc. :)
Seriously even if shirts are cheap I hope that they are of a decent quality that they’re not as good as see through as I’ve seen in the past. I certainly wouldn’t like my daughter to have to wear one of those!
Incidentally my daughter hates the idea of wearing a blazer……
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I have to say I come into contact every day with High school kids and I have to say they look decidedly scruffy. Not everyone can keep those awful sweatshirts smart looking and as the guy from Fletchersports says, you will not have to keep buying blazers like you do sweatshirts. I think in my grammar school life I was bought 2 blazers.
Even large High schools in very poor areas of the UK are going back to Blazer and tie.
I am sure there are lots of reasons why parents/pupils dont want to change, many because they cannot do up a tie, others they dont like being told what to do, many cant stand anything round their neck,the list is endless.
My husband is a very successful salesman and has to buy expensive suits to make him feel up to his job, is that such a bad thing? It is just like a tradesman with his tools.
I went to the Income Tax last week and could not believe male staff dressed in polo shirts and chinos, unacceptable in my view. Maybe I am just old fashioned.
But I say bring on the blazers just dont make St. Sampsons High school boys wear pink shirts, not a good idea.
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I agree with the sentiments about giving children the pride and it would look better that some styles that are currently about, however, I do take offence that some comments here believe that parents who are worried about cost would buy expensive logo’d clothes. Thats not the sort of time I find myself living in. The time I find myself living in is buying cheap used clothes from e-bay or buying cheaply at Peacocks or the like.
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i hope education are going to pay for this new uniform as i have just brought my boys uniform for the coming years, the problem is the education must be bored and stupid to think of things like this.
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I went to a school at which there was no school uniform – we could dress how we liked from head to foot, we could have our hair as long as we liked and we could have as many piercings as we liked.
This created no problems at all, it didn’t affect discipline or our education in any way and it allowed us all to develop as individuals rather than as sheep.
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Matt – I totally agree with your point about the 6th form. It’s worth noting though that by the time students reach that age they are (a) young adults and (b) there voluntarily….so you would hope they’d have grown out of the childish school uniform rebellion stage by then!
Neil – I agree with your anecdotal evidence, my experience backs it up as well. I would say though that few (if any) are suggesting full “mufti” at school but rather a less formal uniform. I personally think that would have the same positive effects the pro-formal party are suggesting….providing it was enforced properly.
As for the point about worth and self esteem, I think some parental education is needed to counter a cultural trend that in my opinion is wrong – namely that someone’s worth is measured by how they look. This could begin by parents telling children that, although it is important to follow school rules and dress respectably, ultimately their worth isn’t in what they wear. Frankly I’d be delighted if my daughter grew up knowing that and didn’t care two hoots what uniform she had on – whether it be Ladies College, Blanchelande, St Sampsons or Grammar – and stuck two fingers up at anyone from a different school who suggested otherwise.
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Mrs R
If your kids are losing their jumpers all the time, it seems you need to teach them a bit of responsibility really.
And for your information, they are not reopening St Peter Port School – the College of FE is relocating there. Didn’t you read the report properly?
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Lead by example I say! save costs. you only have to look at the soap Waterloo road and see the children there with ties and blazers do they look any tidier?
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A simple solution to this is for parents who disagree with blazers not to buy them. Education cant expel that many pupils. They dont do anything about serial bullies so not wearing a blazer is hardly going to disturb them. Then again judging by this latest idea they probably think that a childs appearance is more important than the way they act.
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Well said Mark Guille
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Dress rules from Carol Steere?? You couldn’t make it up!
Environman – the answer to the points you quite rightly raise about SPP school, the PA Centre & St Sampsons High is pretty simple. English consultants. They opine, they take their fees and the SoG do as they’ve paid to be told. Unquestioningly. After all the consultants know best as Lurgi and Suez clearly demonstrate.
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Mmm = call me cynical but would this have anything to do with the up and coming debate on the college grant system? Education wanting to make sure everyone is on a level playing field?
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According to Matt Fallaize, this change is being introduced because research evidence indicates it will improve educational outcomes. I wonder what research exactly was used, and whether we might be told what it is? The evidence for or against is pretty thin on the ground.
Also, I would have thought that if the headteachers (i.e. the professionals normally employed to make decisions on what is best for their pupils’ education) had been properly consulted and were supportive, then they would be doing so publicly. So where are they?
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Has those who children will go to this school for the first time been told that uniforms will change ?.
As I know many working parents have already brought the uniforms .
Some cannot afford to go and buy it all in one go so they spread the cost out ,by buying something each week.
will those hard working parents be repaid for this?
I think they should have said about this much earlier .when the child was going to be choosing their school choices .
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One comment that I do agree with is the state that some of the teachers AND head teachers turn up to work in.
If the children are going to be made to wear a smart uniform then the example should be set by the teachers and they should be made to turn out in smart suits and ties for the men and trouser suits for the women.
LEAD BY EXAMPLE should be the teachers motto and NO EXCEPTIONS.
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One thing I do notice is that the High Schools don’t seem to bother about a second hand shop – this is normally run by parents, and is very popular at the Colleges. This is one way to save costs.
Having a kid at school does cost money. If a blazer is needed, then we will work harder to provide it. We don’t get nor would we expect to get help from education to purchase clothing for our children.
The high school kids do look scruffy, but at least the girls don’t look as tarty as the Ladies College “girls”. What on earth are the teachers there thinking – or the parents for that matter – allowing your girls to dress like that at school for goodness sake!
I think it is generally a good thing. Now all Education need to do is perk up the teaching at the High Schools and then we would all be happy!
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ChrisJ
Your right about the research evidence failing to offer conclusive evidence that school uniforms improve pupil performance.
School uniforms are one of many factors leadingto improved performance. Good teaching is of paramount importance.
One thing we do know from experiences at the CFE is that manky facilities such as poor classrooms will count for nothing if the teaching inspires learning.
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If I were in charge I’d make compulsory the Gollop get-up for boys and the Steere mini for girls. Hang on .. that’s sexist. Have to give them both the choice.
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When I attended Les Beaucamps, I hated the uniform. It was scruffy, cheap looking, faded quickly and embarrasing to wear compared to Grammer and the Colleges. That said uniform is exactly the same as the current one being worn.
I’d like to repeat it was EMBARRASING to wear! This change can have bothing but positive outcomes.
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I think they should just leave it as it is…Do they expect the kids to sit there all day in a blazer when its hot..Are girls meant to wear just skirts,what about the girls who who dont like wearing them,have they thought about that…..
Also the teachers should be made to wear a uniform of some sort..as the woman teachers dress all different from short shirts to chunky knee high boots..what example is that showing the kids..Will thw kids be getting excluded when they dont wear proper uniform,as i know one school will be very harsh with them…
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This would seem to me to seek to reenforce the stereotype that someone in a jacket and tie is “better” than someone in more casual attire.
Personally I see it the other way around …
If all the “suits” working in the civil service , or the banks, were to disappear overnight, would we notice, let alone care ?
Now, all the people in overalls and polo shirts, emptying our cesspits, collecting our rubbish, mending our cars, unloading boats down at the docks, delivering the goods to the shops for us to buy – if they disappered overnight the island would, quite literally grind to a halt.
I know who I respect and rely on more …….
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and no doubt after forking out for uniforms the school will be having a mufti day in the first week when we can pay NOT to wear it!!!
that’s happened in the past 2 years’ at my kids schools……
I agree to do away with the polo shirts and sweatshirts with the ‘rip off’ embroidery and switch to shirt, v-neck and tie, but I don’t think the blazer is really necessary….
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When I attended Les Beaucamps some while ago uniform was voluntery, I don’t recall Carol sticking with it any longer than the rest of us.
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Having gone through the Grammar School system myself, I think this is a great idea from the Education Department. Survey’s have shown that students who attend school in what is considered a more “smart” or “posh” uniform are gaining higher grades. Those parents who are complaining that it will make no difference to their childs education should maybe consider the fact that, if they themselves had worn a smarter uniform, they would not be making horrendous spelling mistakes in their own posts about the topic. The introduction of everyone wearing similar style uniforms will lessen the divide between the High Schools, Grammar and Colleges. Having experienced prejudice myself for attending Grammar, I think this will enable more equality between the school! Bravo Education Department!
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“So far, research on the effects of dress codes and school uniform policies is inconclusive and mixed. No clear trends have emerged. Some researchers claim positive effects, and others claim no effects or, at best, perceived effects.”
So reports a Clearinghouse on Educational Policy and Management review of the detailed research carried out on this subject.
If we may assume that the Education Dep’t officers made the members of their political board aware of the research evidence, it implies that it was simply a political decision by the current board to require that a “blazers and ties” regime be extended to all our post-11 youngsters in the schools they control.
Patronising political tinkering or inspired leadership? You might think it’s for each individual to decide. That said, the lack of comprehensive consultation prior to this shock announcement does strike me as being out of step with current expectations as regards government departments seeking to engage with those who will be impacted by the consequences of their political decision-making.
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Why can’t the States spend the time and money making it the law that the Children have to wear cycle helmets on the journey to and from school? Surely Safety should be a more important issue with more cars on the roads than having to wear a ‘smarter uniform’.
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Oh dear GrammarPupil – you do yourself no favours do you? Good breeding, regardless of the school attended, would not mean resorting to pointing out obvious spelling or grammar errors in other people’s posts. I happen to believe that introducing less scruffy uniforms for all would be an advantageous move. Perhaps the prejudice you say you have experienced GrammarPupil, is more to do with your seemingly “superior” attitude, rather than the uniform you wear.
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So Education thinks a new uniform will make children learn better. Get real. This is being pushed by the likes of Peter Le Cheminant who was miffed when Beaucamps parents kicked this very idea back in his face a couple of years ago. How can Education make such a fundamental change without asking the people responsible for providing the uniform, the parents? Having underachieved on school buildings for many years, you would have to say that Education woulkd not be top of the class. Carol Steere and your fellow board members, concentrate on the important things not this.
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GrammarPupil – I’m not usually one for being petty over spelling but I’ve spotted three elementary spelling errors in your post.
Pay particular attention to your use of apostrophes and remember that the plural of school is schools.
Frankly I’m not too bothered whether people spell correctly on this forum – often posts are written quickly meaning mistakes are made – perhaps this post contains some.
If however you are going to use the quality of spelling on this forum as evidence that wearing a uniform makes for a better education it’s worth making sure you get your own spelling right when making such a claim.
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Sean McManus – Excellent post although I don’t agree that comprehensive public consultation should have taken place. In my opinion all that would have achieved is adding further costs to an already burdened public purse.
That’s not because I disagree with public consultation, simply because given the lack of real evidence this issue should have never arisen in the first place.
The old saying “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” comes to mind, the problem being that in this case nobody knows for certain whether it’s broken or not!
With that in mind I cannot help but think that this whole issue demonstrates a certain degree of reality detachment on the part of Education. Surely they must have more important things to consider than a change in dress code that nobody can categorically say will improve education standards?
The lack of conclusive evidence either way convinces me that the Education Department should have frankly found a better use of their resources.
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Sadly this issue says more about the Education Department and and the people who run it, its understanding of education, than anything else.
It seems that “Education” are more interested in how things look rather than how things are. It would be far better for the island for there to be a real effort to improve real educational standards rather than the cosmetic calling the schools high schools and introducing uniforms.
Time “Education” concentrated on standards. But, that would be too hard for them!!!
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“That said, the lack of comprehensive consultation prior to this shock announcement does strike me as being out of step with current expectations as regards government ”
Deputy Mc Manus, another consultation on something as simple as school uniforms eh? that’s quite funny; you’ll be consulting on whether you are in fear of your own shadow next.
Do politicians actually make any decisions any more without a public or paid consultant?
you even got consults. in because you couldn’t manage savings. how do you justify your existance? Don’t answer that, i can’r be bovvered to wait for the consultants report.
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I go to le mare and i find this is terribly pathetic as for one of the comments above dressing posh like people from grammer and college does not affect how well we work or our grades, also i think its pathetic as myself and alot of my friends will feel embressed to wear these new uniforms which could affect our education in a bad way in not wanting to go to school in them and expecting parents and families to pay for the prices as if they do not pay enough on uniforms already stupid stupid education bord although i no its the highest of the high that made this decision as i no a high member on the education bord and he did not even no about this idea until it came out in this newspaper another stupid thin g is le mare and the others will have to change colour uniforms so that we dont get confused with grammer or collage another one last thing with all the prices of everything in Guersey we are slowely turning into an island wich favours the rich I can see all of this and im only 13
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RWC
Your post confirmms my view that “It would be far better for the island for there to be a real effort to improve real educational standards rather than the cosmetic calling the schools high schools and introducing uniforms”.
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The standard of written English on this thread makes me wonder why there is not a greater level of discussion about the standard of education in our schools than about the dress of our schoolchildren.
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Off topic but
@ Toby,
That has got to be the most narrow minded comment I have ever read. Are you one of those “I do manual labour while you sit at a desk, therefore my work is more important” types? Most people have respect for other people, regardless of what job they do. Are you saying anyone working in finance/goverment/business is doing a worthless job because they wear a suit?
And lets see if you would notice, or care?
I think you would when you couldn’t get a mortgage, loan or even have a bank account. I think you would care when public services cease and half the businesses you mentioned cease to trade. You would care when your taxes rocket and the island economy collapses.
Actually just get rid of the goverment, They wear suits and therefore can’t be doing a worthy job.
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Smart casual wear is the way forward but ties what is the point of having a kipper tied around your neck. Or is it to make the bully’s job a lot easier when he gets hold of some poor kid.
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Paul Le Page and isit? each raise the issue of consultation.
The Education board are not required to consult but readers may wish to ponder the following :-
* Parents of pupils attending Oakvale, St Sampson’s Sec. and St Peter Port Sch. were all consulted (in some detail) about uniform preferences prior to the opening of the 2 new schools at Les Nicolles just a few years ago. The Education Dep’t have been strangely quiet about the results of that exercise… perhaps because it delivered a very sound outcome which is at odds with the board’s new stance.
* The States have only recently agreed to adopt 6 principles of Good Governance. The 2 politicians who sit on Education and Scrutiny may curently be feeling less than comfortable given that Principle 6 places emphasis upon “engaging with stakeholders” and that one of Scrutiny’s ongoing workstreams is considering the extent to which individual departments engage effectively with the public.
A funny business; politics, eh?
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isit? Consultation in this case means asking parents for their views. Beaucamps did. Blazers and ties were rejected. It would appear St Sampson’s/Le Murier parents did the same. So why this pronouncement? Is this the best way the Education board can think of spending its time? Very worrying if it is. This is a department which has so many deputy directors and employs a ‘communications manager’ yet which cannot communicate with such an important group as parents.
I should add I am not affected by this directly as I no longer have children of school age
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I think the problem with giving kids these uniforms is that it is putting lipstick on a pig. The “pig” in question is the fact that kids are still suffering from a two-part system that demoralises 3/4 of our kids. No amount of cosmetic ameliorations will change this.
Luckily we have some excellent educators in our secondary schools in the modus operandi of Mr McManus, who have fortunately ensured our school children are still getting a good standard of education. All the same, you can easily see the 11+ isn’t doing us much good. ((Just look at our mental health!))
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I am the parent of a child at Le Murier School. My son is one of the children for whom a shirt and tie are totally impractical. Simply for the fact that due to his extremely poor fine motor skills he can not, and more than likely never will, manage buttons. He is just coming to the end of his first year at Le Murier and in that year, with the support of staff, has just begun to master pulling a polo shirt over his head. A small achievement to some but in fact a massive one for him (and me).
Deputy Steere is quoted as saying that ‘Members of the Board felt it was important that ALL our students have the same level of esteem and respect regardless of which school they attend’
I wonder if she could enlighten me as to how this change will enable my son to have the same level of esteem and respect as his fellow students at the Baubigny schools?
I believe that other scenarios are possible:-
a) Le Murier stay with the current uniform throughout the school – this would only create a divide between them and St Sampsons High. Many children from le Murier access St Sampsons High, how will they feel being in a different uniform?? And furthermore, the Baubigny Schools prospectus quite clearly states Quote ‘We are committed to working together. We have the same uniform, logo and aims and where possible, the same policies’. Unquote.
b) The current uniform is allowed to remain just for certain students – this will create a divide within their own school and will ‘label’ them even further.
Our children already face all too many struggles in their daily lives and we, as parents, are constantly striving to help them ‘fit’ into and be accepted by society. This proposed uniform change is just another case whereby Education have thought only of the majority. Why for once can they not think what is suitable and practical for the minority thereby leaving the uniform as it stands.
It will take more than a change in uniform to ‘tidy up’ those that this change is aimed
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I suggest that every parent who objects,for whatever reason,to this enforced change should apply for a grant towards the cost of the new uniform
Start the ball rolling with a brief letter to the Education Department on the lines of … Dear Sir,I would like to apply for a grant towards the cost of the proposed new uniform at XYZ school … keep it very basic so that they would then have to write back for further details
If several hundred parents apply perhaps the resultant several months of paperwork (form filling / means testing / rejection letters / appeals etc) will finally make the authorities think again
It would be a peaceful sort of ‘never let the bu**ers get you down’ civil disobedience exercise for the price of a stamp
Parents without children at any of the affected schools could also join in the initial stage to further clog up the system
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Uniforms, no uniforms, it’s all the same to me, really.
My personal experience was wearing a uniform that had to be strictly adhered to at a pretty rough Secondary. I don’t remember us having to go begging on the streets because my parents had to buy the occasional blazer, as in all honesty, we had b*gger all in the first place.
I guess what uniform did do was remind us that there was a distinct difference between home and school (little hooligans that we were) and that, perhaps, wasn’t such a bad thing.
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Ray – it’s only too obvious that instead they’d raise taxes.
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Maybe it’s time to get rid of the 11+, then all schools would be the same, no feelings of anyone being at a better school with a posher uniform, You’d still have the Private schools, but there will always be those who choose to send their children down that path.
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By Heck
Not so.There is no way Guernsey could move above the Jersey tax rate without losing the precious Finance houses who rescued us from the dying tomato and tourism industries
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Readers will note that some people are linking what is seemingly an otherwise cosmetic tinkering with an existing uniform policy towards blazers and ties in order to make all our post 11 schools more similar… at least on the face of things.
Of course “parity of esteem” sounds more socially acceptable than “social engineering” or ” a compensatory move to assuage any feelings of inferiority on the part of some adults”.
However, if there was any consideration of preparing the ground for an Education attempt to revisit the current level of subsidy to support college funding, the board may have blundered. If Education’s budget can and will be used to assist parents pay for expensive blazers, the department cannot so readily sustain claims that it lacks funds. As such, it will prove far more difficult to persuade the States that the department should reconsider its support of the fee-paying sector.
On the other hand, even if the Financial Transformation team advise a reduction of subsidy to the private schools, many Deputies will waver when they consider such advice in the context of Education’s willingness to fund a vanity project with taxpayer’s money.
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Sean
You’ve hit the nail on the head there – it is, after all, very much a vanity project indeed.
Can’t see you getting Christmas cards from Mrs Steere and Mr Neale now though.
Ray
Nice idea but they’ll probably just recruit a load more civil servants to read the extra mail [on the advice of newly recruited consultants of course].
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Stan,
No, what Education will actually do is write the same letter back to everyone saying ‘Your application for a grant will be considered when we get round to it. In the meantime, please ensure your children are correctly attired for September 1st, or they will be sent home and you will be prosecuted.’
They will then stuff all the letters in the bottom of a drawer marked ‘whingers’ and sit on it until most of them give up.
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Keep the uniforms the same, pump the money that would have been spent into grants to make uni more affordable for the lower classes. Regardless of type of uniform, the gifted will make their way into either a good start to a career, or uni, when they leave school, but not if they can’t afford the latter.
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Stan
You tell Sean McManus “Can’t see you getting Christmas cards from Mrs Steere and Mr Neale now though”,
Many would regard this as a result!!!!
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What upsets so many people is that a decision like this can be made with no consultation whatsoever with the people it most concerns.
It makes people feel that even though, it is their children that will be affected, someone else’s opinion is all that matters. This whole palaver merely highlights how far Mrs Steere views are, from the majority of the people, who will be affected by her misguided and poorly thought out brainstorm.
I think it maybe time for Mrs Steere to consider her position. It must be very hard for someone so out of step with public opinion to continue in their job.
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To be fair, i do think that the secondary school girls wear their skirts far to short. In my day we had to wear our skirts below the knee, and were sent home if they were shorter. The schools should clamp down on this as they are just children after all.
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Stan, Stephen.
There are issues upon which senior Education Dep’t officers and I may agree and others where we may take a different view… but I continue to believe that we are still perfectly able to conduct ourselves professionally and without personal rancour.
However, this thread follows a political decision made by the board and not by the officers. For all we know, the officers may have advised against it given the far more serious matters the Department is likely to be bringing before the States.
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Sean
You say about Education “still perfectly able to conduct ourselves professionally and without personal rancour”
Just read the Jane Stephens tribunal judgement to see the reality.
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It is very interesting to note that the police force, a sector that takes pride in its smart appearence, is this week ditching the white shirts and adopting the black polo shirts, which are 1. more comfortable and 2. cheaper
Sounds ideal as a basis for a school uniform really hmm…
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Really
… and they don’t half look sexy!
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Stephen
I have read the judgement you allude to… but that is not a matter for this thread.
Really
My understanding is that the new police uniforms reflect the belief that such garments are appropriate for the role their wearers carry out.
By extension, one might still question whether a blazer and tie contributes to the quality of teaching and learning in our secondary schools; or indeed in our primary schools or at the FE College.
Of course the politicians who approve such a policy aren’t the ones who will have to apply it and, as responses from island teachers filters through, it seems that many are left wondering whether the Education board will be prepared to support their teachers when the policy is tested.
Against a background of ongoing problems with the current behaviour policy for a small but significant minority of pupils in our schools, I can understand the comments of staff who feel that the political board might defend this new “blazers and ties” policy to the last teacher.
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I rarely read Peter Roffey’s inane opinions but his latest headline regarding “blazers” caught my attention. So he would like to see our school children in sweat/polo shirts ( and probably joggers ). Why not go further and let them dress like hippies as some sutely would if given the opportunity. Has no one any pride in their uniform anymore?
The 11 plus has served education well for many years and to call it outdated and destructive is barmy.
Roffey’s weekly Press offering irritates me and many others just by the headlines alone. Thank goodness he is no longer a Deputy and lets hope he keeps to his promise to not stand again.( Don’t hold your breath )
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Mr Roffey’s stance on the 11 plus, and indeed that of Mr Langlois in his letter published in yesterday’s Press, are probably widely known.
However, despite an understandable temptation to capitalise upon a degree of overlap, the selection debate should not be conflated with that about blazers and ties.
The Education board’s main contention seems to be that “parity of esteem” falls unless the pupils are similarly attired in a very formal uniform. That contention will be met with approval by those who can be persuaded that the standard of teaching and learning in our schools is contingent upon a dress code imposed by politicians.
The “standards” pitch is superficially attractive but, given the lack of meaningful consultation, one would (at the very least) expect an evidence-informed argument to be deployed by those who would surely expect our pupils to provide examples to support their assertions in written examination responses.
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Sean McManus
This is another ‘we have spoken’ edict by a States Department .. much like the ‘we will not speak’ edict over the secret under the counter payment agreed re the fishing limits debacle
Are you ‘McManus’ enough to ask a fishing limits payment question of our glorious leader Trott at the next States meeting?
As far as I am concerned if not one of our Deputies will pose a question they should all be kicked out next April
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Ray
Rather than waiting for a States’ meeting, I have e.mailed Deputy Trott this afternoon drawing his attention to your concern.
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Thanks for that Sean but I fear that the curtains will remain firmly shut unless the question is posed under States meeting rules
Even then I would expect a load of bluster but at least the voters will have something to add to their list of grievances to be aired when the ‘honest Joe manifestos’ are being delivered in April
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Ray
I hope to have a answer for you within the next 24hrs.
Back to the main thread… some reaction has reached me over the weekend from a number of former colleagues in our secondary schools. I will summarise the responses shortly.
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As promised, here is a resume of responses which have reached me from serving teachers. Significantly and worryingly, I am told that individual teachers feel they cannot approach their headteachers to discuss an issue upon which their employers have made an arbitary ruling.
Feedback has now reached me from each of the three secondary schools but only indirectly from Le Murier.
The majority of teachers seem keen to point out that their schools currently operate a uniform policy… it simply doesn’t involve blazers, ties or (for the girls) skirts.
The move to a more “formal” uniform at a time when the police and many in the business world appear to be moving in the opposite direction attracted much sceptical comment.
However, two key responses emerged :-
1. This decision is regarded as the arbitary use of political power without proper consultation with stakeholders and without the support of solid educational research evidence. To require someone to do something simply becasue you want it and believe you have the power to have others enforce it for you is generally regarded as unacceptable. Such behaviour carries a different label in most playgrounds.
2. The potential damage which could result to those who need most educational support seems not to have been afforded sufficient consideration by the political board at Education. Many caring professionals claim that much time and effort will be expended on enforcing a “retrograde” ruling.
All this leads me to wonder whether this matter reflects a decison-making process which is at significant variance from that expected with modern forms of political governance?
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Sean
I read in the No 1 daily newspaper ( The Daily Mail) that Ed Milliband has ordered his troops to stop mocking Cameron over his recent bout of
U-turns because it has been discovered that the general public quite like the idea that the UK Government is listening to the people, and is not ashamed of dropping an idea if it looks bad on closer examination
I wonder if Carol Steere has the balls to give this retrograde ruling a second look?
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Think of the money Mrs Watson will have to shell out for these uniforms!
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Ray, just hope that the people commenting on “Watson-gate” dont join the two issues up, I dont think that the Gsy press computers could cope with the uproar
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Ray
In this case it is the whole political board at Education that appear to have signed up to this Cameronesque move.
Time for a “pause”?
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Can’t see what the fuss is about.
The Beaucamps mob pictures above are of far nicer appearance than those of us that attended secondaries in the seventies – I don’t recall any secondary school uniforms at all (save the 3 Colleges and 2 Grammars), despite all of us (boys and girls) having had to wear uniforms and ties at primary school!
I’m in favour of uniforms for schools, the smarter the better in my view. Will it make anyone brighter? No.
But it might just increase the self-respect and discipline of some kids, which would have a positive effect on the others. Not so much a levelling up, but a cessation of factors which (I think) tend to level down, indirectly.
Sean’s speculating that the outcome of the parent/pupil consultations are being kept quiet because they don’t support this policy change. But maybe this policy change is as a result of that consultation? However, you’d think that a new school, a new start would be an ideal opportunity for a new policy, and to set a standard from the outset. So possibly Sean’s right, as St Sampson’s High didn’t go for it.
But when Beaucamps re-opens, all shiny and new, having spent millions on it, wouldn’t it be nice to see the youngsters looking even smarter, prouder and walking that bit taller?
In this day and age image is very important. Not many can look smart while casually dressed, yet most can instantly command more respect when traditionally well-dressed, and even more so when conditioned to it.
Many employers don’t give a hoot in public, but privately discriminate. Many kids won’t even get a look in, and they’ll never know why.
Many will say that’s the employers’ loss – but that really is where we don’t give a hoot, because we can usually find someone who wants to do it “our way”.
In any event, maybe Beaucamps should introduce it now, being new. Then those that don’t like it should be able to swap with those that want a “full” uniform from La Mare, or St Sampson’s.
See how we get on – abandon the current catchments, and give us some real choice?
Then you may get the “middle class” filling Beaucamps places, the school getting better results (not because of the uniform, but because the middle classes may have more resources for educational support and homework enforcement, and their kids would very likely be concentrated on Beaucamps, because the parents would be attracted by the uniform).
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Did I speak too soon?
A rumour now suggests that there may be some toning down of the original encyclical.
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