Where the blazers is Education’s evidence?
Wednesday 13th July 2011, 1:00PM BST.
EDUCATION’S decision to change high school uniforms is not sufficiently evidence-based and worries most teachers, a deputy has said.
Former teacher Sean McManus (pictured) said the decision to make pupils swap polo shirts and sweatshirts for shirts, ties and blazers, had been made without consulting parents and teachers.
‘The lack of comprehensive consultation prior to this shock announcement does strike me as being out of step with current expectations,’ he said.
The States, he said, had only recently agreed to adopt the six principles of good governance and principle six emphasised the importance of engaging stakeholders.
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I think it is a great idea to have all kids in proper uniforms!
Wearing suits increases efficiencies in the workplace, and may have the same benefits on education too.
Not sure why so many are throwing their toys out of the pram over this issue.
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Am so bored of all this whining about blazers.
If the kids who don’t want to wear a blazer had gone to the Grammar School would they have refused to wear the blazer? If the parents who are whining now had been offered a place at Grammar for their child, would they be making a fuss about paying for the uniform? I don’t think so!
Wear the new uniform and get over it! There are so many more important things to care about!
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Worries teachers? I’m a teacher and I’m not worried… why would I be worried about what uniform the states dictate my pupils should wear? If it means they’re smartly presented and take more pride in themselves, they concentrate more in class and it increases their self esteem then I am a happy teacher.
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Timbo – do you have any evidence that wearing suits increases efficiences in the workplace or is this just your personal opinion? Most people I know, including bosses, feel that a more casual dress code increases comfort and, therefore, efficiency in the office. It would therefore follow that the same would apply in schools.
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Comprehensive Consultation for something as simple as school uniforms. Blimey, you have to wonder if there is any requirement for government any more. Do like the ancient Greeks and vote on everything every 7 days!
Responsibility for anything absolved.
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Blazer Lover – it is precisely because “there are so many more important things to care about” that this issue should never have been brought up.
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Gsy Teacher
Can you please expand on “they concentrate more” in the context of wearing a blazer? I fail to see the correlation between the two? If I wear my suit jacket whilst sat at my desk I find it to hot and uncomfortable.
Also in my 15 years experience working in many different offices and for different companies I would have to disagree with Timbo it has been apparent to me that actually a more relaxed dress code actually seems to promote a better working ethic in staff.
Obviously there needs to be some compromise between smartness and comfort and I do agree that there are more important issues then uniforms as “Blazer lover” points out.
So maybe the education dept in all of their wisdom would have been better off concentrating on the more pressing issues of providing an excellent education system and stopped worrying so much about rebranding secondary schools to high schools and deciding that it is in the best interest to shake up school uniforms, so that the majority of “High School” pupils can feel as adequate as the minority of pupils that attend Grammer and College.
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@really – perhaps if you are actually a teacher your time might be better spent learning the basics of grammar, spelling and punctuation? I wonder when/if the Education Department might think about bringing in dress standards for teaching staff – is that where the problem really lies?
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Building sites must be very inefficient work places then Timbo.
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@ Questor
Did I say at any point that I was a teacher?? I see no relevance in your “point”
I apologise profusely to you if my sole spelling mistake (of the word Grammar) upsets you so. I went to a secondary school after all, and we didn’t have blazers in our uniform so I was unable to concentrate in English.
I think that you will find by reading any “your shout” that spelling and grammar are maybe not the highest priority, expressing your personal opinion/debating a subject is.
I don’t think there is a problem with the uniform as it is, that is my opinion, I was asking someone else to clarify there reasoning for their opinion.
So either be constructive, or dont post hey
(dont worry I copied this into word and grammar checked it for you, if its not good enough blame Microsoft)
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Neil,
Consultation does not absolve responsibility, it IS responsibility. Education has offered no evidence to justify this, nor even defined a measurable objective. They could still make the change if they had a mandate to do so, but to create a mandate, they would have to allow scrutiny of their deliberative process and public discourse regarding their proposals.
That doesn’t mean you have to conduct a formal consultation (workshops, written responses, audited reports, yawn!) but it does mean, at the very least, keeping people informed and inviting input from those likely to be most affected.
Responsibility is absolved when you remove it from the people on whom it should be resting. That happened when the Education board took the matter of uniform policy out of the hands of headteachers.
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Maybe they could have sent a simple note home with every school child stating that their intentions in regards to changing the uniforms of the island and ask for the parents input by means of a a simple set of tick boxes.
The slips from interested parents could then have gone back to school and there you have it, the Education send someone to pick the forms up, split them out into the relevant responses and there infront of them would be all the reasearch they needed, parents would have felt involved and none of this would have blown up.
It’s not rocket science
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The teachers are probably worried that they’ll have to smarten up as well.
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@really
The students wear polo shirts at home and when socialising. Wearing something smarter whilst in school sets certain expectations. They’re not playing sports or relaxing, they’re there to work. If you get hot at work I am assuming you take your jacket off? I also assume that your boss would not have a problem with that? Undoubtedly students will be allowed to take their blazers off whilst in the classroom, the way they are allowed to at Grammar and the Colleges.
I am unsure as to why so many people are commenting on the smartness of teachers? The school I am at had strict dress codes for both men and women (suits and ties for the men and smart, decent work wear for the women). The PE department have their own uniformed sportswear that they must wear when teaching and the creative subjects (such as Art and CDT) abide by the same rules and wear overalls. The same can be said of the other Island schools. There aren’t any teachers that I know of who look less than presentable.
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“Consultation does not absolve responsibility, it IS responsibility”
Stop it Chris, I know you aren’t stupid; wrong often, but definitely not stupid.
Consultation is a political game of pass-the-parcel and at such a low level decision simply doesn’t need to be rolled out. Well I say doesn’t need to be, it only needs to be if those that oppose a direction want to ensure that a direction will be kicked into the long grass; often called for as a stalling process; much liek this one now.
You also know, as well as I do, and as someone who I believe is pro cycling and also pro recycling is neither binding nor an obligation of the state.
You’ll remember the public consultation group who were disbanded pre-Suez. General sentiment being that the ‘consultation’ wasn’t going the way that the political board wanted.
Politicians are allowed to make decisions, and they do often, without deferring to a consultation process.
I understand you weren’t suggesting a fully blown consultation, rounds of public meetings etc. But as a general point consultations in my view are exactly as I described and therefore a smoke screen.
I’m more than happy the Education Board can come to a decision without deferring to every HT, DHT, PTA, Union and Friends of (insert school name here).
It’s just a bloney dress code direction, so what’s the problem.
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Neil,
For the most part I agree with what you are saying – I don’t think you are disagreeing with me as much as you think you are!
I know consultation should not be binding (e.g. http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2011/01/24/states-lacks-guts-to-lead-on-population-says-estate-agent/#comment-85771).
That’s why I say that consultation does not absolve responsibility – after a consultation, politicians remain responsible for the final decision – because consultation results are not the same thing as public opinion, and public opinion is not the same thing as the public interest.
Consultation ‘is responsibility’, because politicians must be capable of defending their policies in the face of any reasoned counterargument. In this case, if they haven’t even sought the counterarguments through some kind of consultation, how can the Education Board be confident their decision is right? If they have research evidence to support their position, why don’t they present it?
Frankly, I don’t give a custard wibble what the secondary schools’ uniform policy is. The decision I’m contesting is the decision to take such policies out of the hands of headteachers, which I believe is a wholly unjustified intervention.
And uniform policy is just one highly visible area of Education policy. The wider question is this – does the Board conduct all its business like this, groupthinking bizarre policies into existence, on the hoof, without mandate, evidence or consultation?
On another note, much as I am tickled to think that I am worth pigeon-holing, I’m fascinated to know why you think I’m ‘pro recycling’. And as for ‘pro cycling’ – what on earth does it mean to be ‘anti cycling’?
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Neil
Interestingly, prior to the opening of the two new schools at Les Nicolles there was seemingly an extensive consultation exercise with stakeholders. That consultation exercise delivered a verdict and the current uniform policies at those schools are apparently a consequence.
So, what has changed since that consultation?
a)The appointment of new headteachers at those schools.
b)A new political board at Education.
Reports suggest that staff, parents and pupils at Le Murier have no problems with the current uniform policy.
It seems that the balance of opinion among the secondary headteachers has changed since the appointment of the new postholder at Les Nicolles. However, I am given to believe that any discussions with staff, parents and pupils have been cursory at best across the schools.
So, Neil, the Education board DO have the power to take political decisions.
However, questions must remain as to whether taking arbitary political decisons without seeking to engage stakeholders can be regarded as sound governance in the modern age.
Further, even arbitary decisions may come with a price tag and the cost will fall squarely upon either the parents or a combination of parents and other taxpayers.
What price accountability, eh?
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Deputy Mc Manus
It’s ‘arbritary’ because, one must assume, that you don’t agree with it; that’s why you are calling for it. Of the hundreds of decisions that are taken every year by the States of Guernsey I’ve never seen you calling for consultation; I can only assume therefore that you want to use that mechanism to long grass it.
In 4 years this is the first time I can put a face to a name. I’m intrigued, of all the issues that the Island has had to make (very few requiring a consultation) why is this the big issue of your term? Why is this the day Deputy mc Manus sticks his head above the parapet? Odd.
Chris
The point I was trying to make, possibly clumsily, is I thought that you were anti-incinerator and therefore referencing the ‘consultation’ over the Suez proposal was a way of illustrating my contention as to how consultations are used.
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Sean McManus
Can you please explain what the term “stakeholder” means in the context of your post. Preferably not in political speak.
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Spot on Phil about Sean’s use of the term ‘stakeholder’. In this particular context I am afraid it is another of those awful PC perversions of a perfectly decent word.
Nothing wrong with using ‘stakeholder’ to describe someone who, for example, has a financial interest in a business but in this context it looks and sounds ridiculous.
They are parents. They are pupils. They are teachers. Most definitely they are NOT stakeholders. Try writing your next post in plain, proper English for goodness sake.
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Phil
Stakeholders include parents, pupils and staff.
Neil
The decision is arbitary because it reflects political opportunism rather than being based upon any clearly developed policy programme. This view is reinforced by the board’s apparent lack of willingness to defend their decision other than by a generalised reference to “parity of esteeem”.
As regards your reference to my own stance re. governance, consultation, etc. I’m more than willing to explain my background in education and in politics more generally. To avoid boring other readers, can I suggest you call me and I’ll respond accordingly?
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I don’t give a damn whether secondary school kids wear blazers, polo shirts or anything else. But surely it makes sense for the same standards of dress to be enforced at all schools equally otherwise we are merely preparing some children for ‘suit and tie’ jobs and some for building sites or similar. Whilst it may generally work out that way it cannot be right to deliberately channel children into life changing patterns of behaviour from the age of 11. It should be decided and enforced by the Education Board, not at the whim of individual Heads.
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Deputy Mc Manus
The only thing that appears arbitary, with the greatest respect, is the use of or calling for consultation.
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There still does not seem to be a valid arguement to change over to blazers and shirts.
If wearing a blazer, shirt and tie made you perform better then we would all want our surgeons to wear one when they operate instead of scrubs!!
As far as I can see, parents only have to buy the official school jumper and then the rest of the uniform can come from anywhere. The washing and care of polo shirts and skirts/trousers seems easy, in the washing machine and off you go.
Going to Blazers and shirts seems to add expense, and time and effort on the part of who ever does the ironing in the house and lets just hope that the Blazers can be machine washed!
So it seems simple to me, keep what we have now and lets concentrate on the job of educating the children rather than messing about with what they wear.
Teachers manage to get their PGCE without wearing a uniform!
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Neil
I note and respect your remarks re. consultation.
My offer to respond to your other concerns still stands.
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Hello Deputy Mc Manus
Thanks for engaging and there’s nothing I’ve asked on a public forum that can’t be answered on a public forum. So I’m still intrigued as to why this is an issue of the moment.
In any event, on the subject of consultations, it might be of use for the SoG to do an exercise as to when and where they should be used and at what level they are conducted and how much store governement puts in the responses; especially so if they don’t go the way of the politica lthinking of the day. A “Public Engagement Pact” so to speak.
At one extreme there’s no point engaging if the views of the majority of contributors are largely ignored and the other extreme there’s no need for Deputies to roll out ‘we need consultation’ on triviality.
Population Consultation – yep, dandy. Dress code for schools – come on eh?
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Post holders?
Stake holders?
SM – you do talk a load of old tosh…
You will be talking about “clients” next!!
Is there an election due within 12 months?
Can we expect more random chuntering from the elected shepherds?
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Neil,
Problem is, if school dress-code is ‘triviality’, why does it need a Board-level dictat at all?
There might be a good answer to that, but we haven’t heard it yet. Far from improving ‘parity of esteem’, the only significant outcome of this exercise has been to alienate a lot of ‘stakeholders’, which in the sphere of education is a very damaging result.
The best way Education could improve ‘parity of esteem’ would be by respecting the wishes of all parents, not just those with the wonga to use the independent schools, and recognising their right to have some say in how their children are educated.
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Neil
The Scrutiny Committee is surrently looking at the ways in which the States of Guernsey engages with the public. Results will be published. Education will doubtless be sent a copy.
Ed
Cheap shot but fair point.
Election due? Yes.
Random chuntering (with “old tosh”)? Probably
With the school holidays due to begin at the end of this week, this whole “blazers and ties” issue can be expected to die down until the autumn… but I suspect that it will not go away.
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“Problem is, if school dress-code is ‘triviality’, why does it need a Board-level dictat at all?”
We’ve drifted a bit on to consultation and how and when they are used or called. FWIW; I’m warm to smartening up the dress code for the Secondary schools – but equally ain’t gonna die in the trenches over the issue.
Deputy Mc Manus
It will be an interseting Scrutiny Review. Thanks again.
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Neil,
Ironic you should mention going to war over this. The next development on this story will be when someone points out that state-dictated school clothing policy is borderline totalitarianism, since it encroaches on fundamental freedoms enshrined in the ECHR.
Just leave it to the headteachers… it’s much less messy…
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As a teacher, I am not worried about this. I don’t feel strongly either way… whatever my school decides uniform-wise I will support. Most teachers in the high school I work in are actually in favour of introducing a smarter uniform.
I really do get fed up with the teaching unions (NASUWT and NUT) professing to speak for teachers… it is them who need to do some consultation with their members!!!
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I honestly can’t see it making much if any difference. If a student doesn’t want to be in school in the first place do you really think a blazer will change them? Yes they’ll look smarter, but teenagers aren’t going to change due to new clothing very quickly (if at all). P.S surely it would be more productive to use the income on new equipment for these schools rather then a new un-needed uniform?
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Local Teacher
Both the NUT and the NAS have regular association meetings. You have every opportunity to attend and to influence local policy choices. Don’t get fed up; get involved.
If you need further details or contacts, give me a call and I’ll point you in the right direction.
Would you care to post the results of the vote that was taken in your staff meeting re. the “blazers and ties” policy?
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Blimey it’s questionable consultation central today.
@Local Teacher
Before you take up Dep Mc Manus suggestion I’d suggest he poses the same questions to Mrs Bowker vis article:
http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2011/07/02/uniform-announcement-without-consultation-a-poor-move-union-rep/
I would have assumed that as a Union Rep her comments would have been based on ‘consultation’ with her members.
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Does seem bizarre to me that our ‘high powered’ Education board should even discuss this. Surely they should be discussing strategic matters? This was a decision for managers/head teachers. Suspect they weren’t trusted with it because they knew the flak they would get. And just as bizarre that Education is trying to move majority of pupils to formal dress when huge numbers of businesses are doing the opposite. A piece of cheap cloth around the neck doesn’t make someone a better person nor improve their output. But nothing will stop the States’ second scruffiest dresser and her bunch of petrified yes men.
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Sara Thompson
I doubt whether they can spell strategic, let alone enagage in strategic thinking!!!
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