Education is ‘out of step’ on faith schools
Monday 15th August 2011, 2:29PM BST.
THE Education Department’s admission policy relating to faith schools is out of step with other places, according to a politician and former head teacher.
Jane Stephens’ comments came after a review board panel ruled, by a majority, that a decision of the department was reasonable and complied with the law.
It followed a challenge by Rob Gregson relating to Notre Dame du Rosaire Primary School about which few details have been released because the hearing was held in camera.
‘The response of Education does not reflect the situation elsewhere in that Roman Catholic schools do accept children whose parents want a faith-based education for them providing there is room in the school,’ said Deputy Stephens (pictured).
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….when will people ever stop sending their children as fodder for indoctrination by the hawkers of fables and open lies?
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When people have not been indoctrinate as children, Vic. Chickens and eggs come to mind.
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Indeed. The sooner society adopts science as a definitive way forward, the better.
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Couldn’t agree more Vic, not to mention abuse and cruelty of course………
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Vic
If the faith schools do just one thing,and that is instil a CONSCIENCE into the minds of their young charges,then I say build more of them
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Well said Vic.
I really don’t think that religion should play any part in education other than as a subject taught as various theories or beliefs (with none given precendence over the others) that pupils can choose to adopt at such time as they are mature enough to make that decision.
Education policy within schools should be completely neutral towards religion above and beyond that. I have a 6 year old who seems to be being presented with bible stories at school as fact and it horrifies me that in this day and age that this is felt appropriate.
Stop brainwashing our kids and get on with the task of providing them with a good and solid education.
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I strongly believe faith should be kept out of schools except during Religious Education where all religions are discussed to promote tolerance and understanding of other people’s beliefs.
If you want a child to be have a religious upbringing do it at home. (To be fair even then I dislike the idea – kids should be able to choose what they believe and not be influenced into religion by their families.)
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…a little true story…when my daughter was at Nursery school, aged about 4, she came home one Easter with a childish drawing of a man on the cross…little blood stains and all…when I protested, in wriring, to the Nursery that bunny rabbits, daffodils and easter eggs would be a more appropriate icon for the time, especially with very young children, I was told that I was probably a Marxist….probably was!
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Ray
The Catholic Church and conscience are not two things that I would ever put together. Wholesale abuse of children? Telling uneducated people that condoms INCREASE the chance of HIV, trying to buy their way out of trouble when the proverbial hits the fan, and making denials where it is plainly absurd to do so? Institutionally rotten to the core, the chances of finding any child of mine in a Catholic school, other than playing them at sport maybe, is remote in the extreme.
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Conscience and morality should be instilled from the appropriate place. In the home from parents. Responsibility begins there.
It does not belong or originate from texts that have no basis of fact behind them. The texts should certainly not feature as a fact in any classroom. Religious education serves it’s purpose in tolerance and understanding.
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Secular
Now that you put it that way I have to agree with you
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I agree with you Adam
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Secular schools didn’t do much for northern Ireland it wasn’t until the initiation of cross community schools that peace came to the province. I am catholic but my son is going to vauvert as I don’t agree with segregation and all that it stands for, faith cant be learned in the home.
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Vic,
Parents are expected by society to indoctrinate their children. Generally I’m sure you would agree that parents should indoctrinate their children that it is wrong to harm others, and that it is wrong to lie, cheat and steal.
We also rightly indoctrinate our children with our own diverse values. For example, that they should seek the best paid employment, or perhaps that they should enrich the culture of their own community, or fight for global justice. There are as many doctrines being taught to children as there are children.
Notre Dame is a voluntary school. All the children are there because their parents chose opted for them to be there instead of their catchment school. The state should refrain from interfering in that choice precisely because ours is a state free from the sort of indoctrination you are promoting – that is the doctrine that even privately run nurseries should ditch the nativity and eviscerate easter, and that society has to strip all religious content from public holidays.
If your view is that the religious foundation of our society is all irrelevant poppycock, and you don’t want your children to have anything to do with it, that’s fine, and I support your right to have your children so educated. That sure as heck isn’t what I think, and I’d hope you’d equally defend my right to choose to send my children to Notre Dame.
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To those of you critising the Catholic schools we must remember why this discussion has taken place. It is, of course, because of the family who, although not Catholic, would prefer their child to attend Notre Dame rather than the relevant alternative. Does this not tell us that the ethos of the Catholic school must be perceived as a good basis for happy, successful schooling. May I suggest that these schools must be doing something right?
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Two questions :-
1) Do Notre Dame and St Mary and St Michael have spare capacity?
2) Do the Catholic authorities have any problem with children who lack a baptismal certificate attending RC schools (given a stated parental preference)?
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Sean,
Two answers:
1) Yes
2) No
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John,
The stripping away of superstition and religion is positive progress for mankind’s benefit as a whole. You don’t need religion to promote strong moral fibre!
It is an excellent move by governments to remove such content in seasonal holiday periods as it grounds people in reality.
In time it should remove prejudices, fearmongering and promote intellect, science and societal harmony.
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Adam West
Go and say that in a Moslem country!
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I agree totally with you Adam
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Whether i said it in a Moslem country or bible belt America, the point remains the same Mike.
The world needs to reject religion for all it’s faults and embrace science to truly develop and evolve.
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Adam,
I profoundly disagree with you when you use the words ‘by governments’. Governments should have no role in this.
Anyhow, I don’t see what your comment has to do with the right of parents to have their children educated at Notre Dame if they so wish?
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I think a certain degree of religious education is of benefit at an early age. Doesnt have to be studied, just portrayed in culture, songs, stories. Children soon make their own minds up later in life, but having been taugt they have an idea of the various faiths, if not to put into practice themselves but to understand other people, their priciples etc.
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Step Out Of The Box
And Keep The Faith
For a Better Life
Stamp Out The Financial Greed And Corruption For Starters
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…I cannot help but feel in these comments that Adam is the Gailileo in this story and John is the Roman Inquisition….the Roman Catholic church taught then (1615…not quarter past four, but the year!)that the earth was the centre of the universe and the the church was the centre of the earth…times may have moved on, but minds still stuck in the barmy belief of creation, transubstantiation…water to blood, Warry’s loaf to flesh and any other Paul Daniels tricks you can think of does not really give much confidence that times really have moved on.
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I don’t beleive in god or religion, but without religion for all the terrible things done in the name of god, society may, I say may, have been a worse place to live in.
I would never have sent my son to school where religion was taught to him as fact quite simply because I considered I had no right to. If he wants to beleive in god then I felt I should leave it to him to decide when he was old enough to think for himself and not have someone condition him to beleive whilst he was still an impressionable child. Children have rights to!.
Lasty the govenment of the Catholic Church is in the Vatican and they certainly make sure they have a role of what is taught in Catholic schools.
Notre Dame may be independent of the government of Guernsey in its teaching but it’s certainly isn’t independent from the teachings of the Catholic Church.
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Governments set the syllabus for schools do they not? Much the same as religion should have no role in education as there is no factual basis behind it.
I strongly believe that having faith schools are a step in the wrong direction for humanity’s progress.
The rights of parents do not necessarily dictate the rights of children with their own choices in belief.
I would rather my two children had an education based on facts proven by science.
Yes John, you do have the right to send them to Notre Dame, but this is holding them and future generations back by contradictions by what faith and science will tell.
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…sorry fingers working faster than brain…should be wine into blood, although that old fave of water into wine is recorded…but wine into blood, soap flakes into snow…’tis all the same hookum.
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Pete,
In human rights law, it is the right of a parent to have their children educated in accordance with their philosophical or religious convictions.
Vic is right that a thread of superstition runs through religion. Some people may go as far as rejecting science when it conflicts with their beliefs. But schools do not teach that because it is an unsound basis for effective education.
Beyond that, religion has a huge amount to say about matters of philosophy and human experience. I am an atheist myself, but I believe there exist truths that are the linguistic bread and butter of the established church, but which humanism and other forms of rationalist or atheist philosophy do not have the maturity to express. I believe my children have a right to be able to access the same, and I do not believe the state has a right to block me from having Notre Dame provide it to them.
Luckily, in our case, the education department eventually acquiesced to our wishes – after legal advice, a huge amount of work and late nights of letter writing on our part – and our eldest now attends the school.
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John
I don’t know much about religion, but if you want to join me and the other fairies at the bottom of the garden please feel free to do so…..
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People of guernsey who have no faith and dont believe in religion have no future and will not see a better life,they will probably suffer and endure a life of pain and be unhappy.
Sounds like a typical life in guernsey.
The monster finance created the greed and corruption,cometh the day you will all pay the price.
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pbfalla:
Greed and corruption are rife in most if not all religious institutions, along with any slant of life that mankind is involved with.
The spouting of fearmongering from your religious texts will not faze me. I’m leading a very fulfilling life expanding my knowledge through critical analysis and enjoying time with family, whilst experiencing a decent career.
If that is what a normal life in Guernsey (or anywhere else!) then I pity you.
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It all makes sense now. pb falla is a religious nutter.
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…John…it is not a thread of superstition, it is a big tug boat rope…and what an enigma you are..an atheist in support of religious propoganda…
think I will go and try to strike a match on toothpaste…
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Cometh the day the people of guernsey will pay a heavy price for its corruption and greed
The family home is broken,there is no respect,modern day guernsey has created despicable human beings.
Bring on the exodus and lets look fwd to a better life.
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Adam West
Are you local ?
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martini
The nutters are the ones who deny they have a faith,yet seem happy to use churches and other religious buildings when they need.
Hypocrites spring to mind.
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John Surcombe I wasn’t disputing your parental human rights. I was stating that I considered it was my sons right to make his own mind up about religion when he had the experience of life to make an adult decision.
It was his human rights which took president in the matter, not mine, it was his right to choose, and not for me to decide what was good for him.
Also how can an atheist, as you claim to be, place your children in a school where they will be taught to believe something that you claim fundamently not to beleive in.
Its not like they being taught something like there’s a tooth fairy or Father Christmas which they will realise when they grow is only make beleive. Religion is a whole different ball game, it’s a very serious thing which will colour their whole outlook on life, of how they look upon and treat other people.
I have met many people in my life who hate jews because they been brought up on that Catholic lie that the Jews killed Christ.
Quite simply in my opinion religion is to serious and dangerous to be taught to children.
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@ pbfalla
Yes, local – your point on that was?
It is also a little warped to blame all of society’s problems on Guernsey.
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pbfalla
Are you loco?
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pbfalla
You’re not the fruitcake who wears a sandwich board and makes a nuisance of himself at the Weighbridge and the Crown Pier are you?
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@ Pete
I was under the impression that all Guernsey state-funded schools teach Christianity?
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…pb falla…this name keeps cropping up like a plague of locals…sorry I meant the insect..surely he must be the biggest excuse we can find for introducing a curfew for some of our more wayward members of society?
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I was thinking exactly the same thing Phil. Are pbfalla and the fruitcake with the sandwich boards one and the same?
But returning to the point in hand the ultimate faith schools are the madrassas in Pakistan that produce Islamic suicide bombers by the score with which to terrorise the rest of the world so successfully. This is an extreme example but ALL religions are, essentially, death cults that persuade their adherents there is something better beyond this life. Just one of the many, many reasons why faith schools are, in general, a bad thing for humanity.
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Adam West
My point was there use to be a Adam West post ona forum i thought that it maybe you,if your local then you are not the same,
Martino
No
Phil
No
Vic
Censorship and curfews dont work in the long term.
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I have posted on these forums before this thread. It is more than likely the one and the same poster you are thinking of.
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I was brought up strongly religious and extremley indoctrinated in one faith. It saddens me. I think too much of religion is about fear rather than an internal desire to serve a loving God.
It also saddens me when education is based solely upon science.
Why should any of us be told what to believe as though it were fact. Are any of us so wise?
I will only bring up my children with good morals, a belief in a kind God weighed out with a sound reason in science.
Parents have forgotten their place in bringing up their own children these days. Thats why the world is turning out the way it is.
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HM your correct, but without the direct church invovlement that happens at catholic schools. If christianity was taught in States schools in the way the catholic church appoved of they wouldn’t see the need to have seperate schools would they?.
RealisticMS. Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head.
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Adam West
The other Adam West said he was from the uk,think he was some kind of dj.
So if your local,i assume thats not you.
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Adam West,
There is research into the question of whether faith schooling leads to better or worse education outcomes. Perhaps you can point to something that indicates that faith schools produce worse science results. If not, that would be a bit of a leap of faith on your part, given that it is a question which is actively studied!
Contrary to what some of the fearmongerers here would have you believe, these schools do not teach things like creationism.
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Pete,
I also agree with RealisticMS. Parents are responsible for bringing up their children as best they can. The point is therefore that the state should not remove that responsibility by dictating what children can or cannot be taught, except in so far as is necessary to ensure that the child’s education is effective.
The human right you imagine children have, to be free from indoctrination by their parents, or a school acting on the parents’ behalf, does not exist in law. If it did, you could not possibly teach a child anything! The real right is the one which means parents are able to choose how their children are educated. That right is the right of freedom from indoctrination by the state.
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What an enigmatic man John Surcombe is – the atheist who sends his children to a faith school. Here’s someone who has taken PB Falla’s challenge to “think outside the box” to heart. In all seriousness though, I admire you John for being prepared to not toe the party line.
As for this thread, have to say the comments are as predictable as a red card in an Arsenal game. My old pal and sparring partner Vic recently told me there’s little point debating these things in any detail as we’re unlikely to ever agree, meaning we’ll just end up wasting our time. Have to say a big thank you to you for that pearl of wisdom Vic – it’s saved me a lot of time! At least that’s something we can agree on…that and whining tourists, eh?!
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……Paul, what a late entry into this little arena…I said to my wife that Paul Le Page must be on holliday….but as always, you may be in the ring late, but your brain is not swaying one iota…and a certain tourist, ( we know who,) actually got off lightly..I was nearly planning a vitriolic attack!
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As an agnostic I keep an open mind:
Science states: ‘if you put a thousand monkeys with type writers in a room, eventually they will, by chance, write the complete works of William Shakespeare.
Why not then, given enough time, should an omnipotent being have come into existence?
After all human science is looking for immortality, and searching to create life from amino acids in the laboratory. Given enough time, will mankind may evolve into gods! The creators of life!
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…sorry Paul, there are not two hells in holiday…unless you are, well you know who!
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Paul,
The current Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science is Marcus Du Sautoy. He is an avowed atheist, and a staunch defender of the need for schools to provide the best science and maths education. His children attend a faith primary school.
If you are interested, have a read of http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/06/faith-schools-jewish-education-atheism
It does surprise me that people would find mine to be that unusual a position, let alone one which they would take issue with to the point of intolerance. Partly as a consequence of that, this thread has further reinforced my conviction that I have made the right choice. It seems that there is misunderstanding and fear of religion lurking around the roots of people’s objections to faith schooling, and that is something I would not like to see in my own children. Perhaps that fear springs from people spending too much time worshipping at the Church of Richard Dawkins!
Going back to the point of the original article, I am intrigued to know what kind of policy change, if any, Vic, Pete, Adam West and Martino would like to see come out of their views.
If you look to secular France, even there faith schools are heavily subsidised. France imposes its secular will by requiring that subsidised schools do not discriminate on grounds of religious affiliation. If that is the direction people want things to go in, then in fact I agree with them.
As it is, Guernsey is in the screwy situation where the religious authorities would provide a school which is openly accessible but, for reasons which Education won’t fully explain, the government insists on clamping access down to the ‘sufficiently Catholic’. It makes that judgement solely on the basis of possession of a baptismal certificate from a Roman Catholic church, which is a discriminator not intended or fit for that purpose. And it doesn’t actually follow the stated policy, because Education clearly does admit some children without an RC baptismal certificate to the Catholic primaries.
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…John, it must be patently evident from the threads you refer to that there is a gaggle of us who do not wish to have religion taught in schools at all…as for the Marcus Du Sautoy story I can see a whole lot of sense in what he is trying to achieve for his child…the Jewish religion is somewhat different from the teachings of the Catholic, or indeed the Protestant church…Jews belong to a race, a culture and as Du Sautoy himself says, it is not a religion of dogma…so I fear your agruement holds no holy water with me…
Paul I did write to apologise for giving holiday two ‘lls but somehow it has slipped by…I said two ‘lls were what our whinging tourist compalined about…maybe the moderator did not find it funny?
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In answer to your question John Surcombe, one urgent policy change that comes to mind is a legal requirement for faith schools not to indoctrinate their pupils with religious homophobic propaganda. Just try googling or see below. This has become a serious problem in the UK and god (sic) only knows what pupils are being ‘taught’ here on this subject.
http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/430
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-faith-schools-must-confront-homophobia-2274747.html
Turning to the article that you point towards, Marcus Du Sautoy and his Mrs have made it clear that they are putting their children into a Jewish faith school because they want their children to be culturally Jewish or ‘part of the tribe’ and I can sort of understand where they are coming from. Even Richard Dawkins describes himself as ‘culturally Christian’ and, without worshipping him one iota, I would be happy to be so described. However, I cannot see a ‘tribal’ reason for you, Mr Surcombe, wanting to send your own kids to a faith school.
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When I tell people that I went to a Catholic school (Blanchelande), I always get an interesting response. People assume I’ve been brainwashed, that I’m a creationist, judgemental, prudish/slutty, ignorant… all sorts of nonsense.
Having spoken to many people who went to non-faith schools, I count myself very, very lucky in the education I had.
Our religious education classes covered so much more than Bible stories – we discussed euthanasia, abortion, sexuality, ethics, feminism, racism, pre-marital sex, marriage itself and the very idea of religion. We were told, “this is the official stance of the Catholic church, but what do you think? Is this an outdated view? Is this still relevant?” – we were encouraged to debate and bounce ideas off each other, to see the bigger picture. Nobody felt out of place and we all were able to express our views in a safe and respectful environment. NONE of us were just blindly believing what we were told, nor were we ever expected or encouraged to. Through this we were taught an intelligent way of learning which was reflected in our other classes.
Not everyone who went to my school was Catholic. Some were not Christian at all and a lot of my school friends were from strongly athiest families. All were equal and their views respected. Outside of Religious Education, the only time religion was involved was during assembly when we sang a hymn and said a prayer, and on major feast days, when we would have a short mass. Those who were not Christian were mature enough to go through the motions of this without being a) brainwashed or b) offended. Give the kids some credit.
This is Guernsey, not Bible-belt America. We were not taught that abstinence is the only way, in fact we had a better sex education than many our age. And yes, we were taught science like everyone else and to my knowledge there were no creationists anywhere to be found.
We were taught that blind faith is foolish and dangerous, and that only after a lot of research, reading, searching and questioning should you decide to embrace or reject religion. This is a lesson that I and my schoolmates have used in so many aspects of our lives, and it boils my blood that people think it’s OK to mock me and my beliefs by referring to “your imaginary friend” or “fairies at the bottom of the garden”. Weren’t you taught manners and respect at your school? I was.
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Kittycat
Very good post.
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Agreed. An excellent post Kittycat. I don’t share the perspective on the hymns and prayer etc – it was the major element that cheesed me off in a state school.
I do believe that there is a mass contradiction in RealisticMS’s point of view. How can you be religious and a follower of science? There must be a conflict.
In answer to your question John, I do not know the answer to this question, i just strongly believe that the sooner that religion is abolished, the better off we will be as a race.
As i previously stated, morality and ethics dont require religion.
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John Surcombe – If I may speculate I think a lot of us find your position surprising because you have become yet another victim of that universally human behaviour, stereotyping – I must confess I’m guilty as charged. In the eyes of many the word “atheist” conjures up images of angry, anti-religious zealots like Christopher Hitchens – rather than someone like yourself who has quietly and privately chosen not to believe in God, and certainly not someone who would send their child to a faith school.
It’s a similar situation to the one experienced by Muslims. Say the word Islam and most people think of suicide bombers, terrorists, burquas, sharia law and jihad. I’m opposed to Islam as a faith myself but I know right well that the vast majority of Muslims are reasonable, law abiding people.
Vic – you’re quite right there aren’t two “hells” in holiday, which is a good thing really as it is after all a derivative of “holy day.” Your Dante’s Inferno comparison did make me laugh out loud though. Keep up the good work!
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Just for the record I would like to say that I know for a fact that St Mary and St Michael RC school has taken non-catholics for years and still does – both my children have been educated there and for several years my daughter was in a full to capacity class of 30 children, some non catholic. I cannot make comment on Notre Dame as I do not know their policy. My own personal opinion is that religion is an important aspect for children and following christian ethics and trying to instill them in our children is the right way to progress – without going over the top! Christian beliefs work hand in hand with family values – and family values is a sadly diminishing factor in the modern world. – my opinion…..
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Martino,
A law of that nature might be worthwhile if local Catholic primary schools were ‘indoctrinating their pupils with religious homophobic propoganda’. But that’s just just more fearmongering on your part.
The British Humanist Association press release you’ve cited is based on ‘The School Report’ by Stonewall (2007). That says in it headline results that more faith school students report homophobic bullying than students in other schools. The BHA then does a bit of handwaving and hocus-pocus, and miraculously concludes (very obliquely) that faith school indoctrination is the cause.
In reality Stonewall doesn’t speculate at all about the contributing factors.
It also contains no more evidence for homophobic indoctrination at faith schools than it does for homophobic teaching or bullying by teachers at regular schools.
One could also make some criticisms of Stonewall’s report: the headline results only just make it into the realms of statistical significance, since the size of the sample of faith school students was only 110, and as there is no methodology and no full set of figures, you can’t know to what extent the conclusions have been manufactured by post-hoc analysis.
But there doesn’t seem any point in going so far, because the report goes on to make ten recommendations, and none of them identify faith school indoctrination as a particular problem.
Furthermore, Stonewall produced another consultative report the following year which focuses specifically on the issue of tolerance of homosexuality in faith schools, and the impact legislation has had in tackling it. So if you want to know what Stonewall really have to say about this issue, read http://www.stonewall.org.uk/documents/love_thy_neighbour.pdf – and treat the BHA propaganda machine with the same critical scepticism as you would any other!
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gsy mum,
The policy of the Education Department is that children can only attend Notre Dame or St Mary and St Michael’s if they have a baptismal certificate from a Roman Catholic church. The policy does not come from the schools or the Church authorities – they have no say in the matter.
See the links down the right on this page for more:
http://www.education.gg/14.cfm?s=14&m=327&p=206
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@Paul
Christopher Hitchens a zealot? Angry yes but a zealot just the opposite. This is a man who, through his brilliant, eloquent writing has exposed and ridiculed the most extreme and hardened of religious zealots in the USA. Your description of him is lame and ironic. Unfortunately Christopher Hitchens has throat cancer and cannot speak now. He was also a very powerful and passionate speaker against the American religious right and his enemies over there are, even now, describing his illness as a punishment visited by god. Now that is true zealotry.
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I don’t think we should be dumbing down our children by teaching them about magic tree people.
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I’m a little lost as to what all the fuss is about.
What is wrong with a catholic school requiring a child to be baptised as catholic in order to be accepted? It seems to make sense to me?
For all those commentors complaining about religious schools, don’t send your children to one. Simples.
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Martino – I’ll only concede that we are probably both biased due to our relative positions on the subject.
Anyway, with all due respect to someone who I can always have a civil dicussion with your point is somewhat irrelevent as I was only using Christopher Hitchens as an example of the stereotyped image many people tend to think of when they hear the word atheist these days – I wasn’t doing a case study on the guy.
By the way I’m sure I’d agree with *some* of what Hitchens says anyway, as some of the more extreme aspects of Christianity are as offensive to me as they are to him – such as the Westboro Baptist Church. Oh, and I don’t think throat cancer is a punishment from God, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
Finally – have you ever read Christopher’s brother Peter Hitchens – chalk and cheese if ever I saw it.
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PS Martino – sorry but I’m feeling a bit pedantic today!
A zealot can simply describe someone who is very passionate about their cause, which doesn’t have to be religious. I think writing a book “God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything” qualifies Mr Hitchens as being rather zealous, don’t you?
I don’t know about you but I reckon he would be somewhat disappointed if I didn’t at the very least acknowledge his zeal in campaigning against religion.
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PMC,
In the case of Notre Dame and St Mary and St Michael’s, it’s not the school which requires the baptismal certificate, it’s the Education Department. The Church would gladly carry on providing the school for Education’s use if it was open to all.
Historically, as gsy mum points out, non-Catholics have routinely been admitted. Given that is the case, it seems reasonable that the Department might continue to do this. Instead it now seems to be taking a hard-line approach with some applicants, without adequately explaining what the criteria is for who can go and who can’t, or why the apparent change is necessary… or even that changes are being made.
Given also that an education at Notre Dame costs the public purse less that a States school education, as the States pay only a peppercorn rent for the buildings, this seems to be the opposite direction to the one you would expect. In both England and France for example, the state drives faith schools to open admissions up, as a matter of principle – the logic being that if the church is going to receive public subsidy to operate a school, then they are not going to be allowed to dictate who gets taught there (e.g. via admission through baptism).
There is also the issue that the baptismal certificate from an RC church is the wrong discriminator. If a child is baptised in an Anglican church for example, then he cannot then be baptised again in a Catholic church. As far as the Catholic church is concerned you have already been baptised, and can’t be baptised again. This means Anglicans who wish their child to have a Christian education cannot receive one in Guernsey, even though the Education Department provides one.
I queried this point with the Department in 2009, and the explanation was that the basis for the policy was the terms of the foundation of the school, to ‘Fulfil a great want in Town, viz. proper provision for Primary Education of the numerous children of French Roman Catholics in St Peter Port’.
Well, where do you begin with that!
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@ Adam West.
The bible itself is full of science. It stated that the world was round whilst many were still believing in a flat earth.
But that aside why can’t they be harmonious? If I believe in a God can’t I believe that he was clever enough to create the atom? Nature’s fibonacci pattern has long held me in awe but why can that not have been part of Gods design? It is in my book.
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Hi Paul, we’re getting into semantics here but I’d say that Christopher Hitchens pursues his targets with zeal but he is not a zealot. The absence of a faith or religious belief is not a cause – not something that you can be zealous (in the pejorative sense) about. Anyhow, your posts are reasonably put as always and yes, the Hitchens are chalk and cheese and I’m not a fan of his brother.
@John Surcome, for all your waffle the bottom line, in the UK at least, is that gay pupils are more likely to be subjected to homophobic teaching in faith schools and less likely to report any abuses. There is no evidence that there is a great problem over here but that doesn’t mean safeguards should not be put in place. However, my main objection is centred on the principle that state sanctioned schools should be entirely separate from the church and religious teaching. It’s as simple as that. The bible and the quoran should not be part of any curriculum unless we are talking about comparative studies that put pagan and humanist philosophies on an equal footing with their religious counterparts.
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RealisticMS
“The bible itself is full of science.” Quite possibly the funniest sentence I’ve read this year!
I’d also like to know where the bible states that the earth is round, could you point me in the right direction please?
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John Surcombe reference your posting of the 20th of August were you claim people are taking issue with you about sending your children to a catholic school to the point of intolerance.
Well I mearly questioned how an atheist can send his children to a catholic school, if you consider that intolerant well with all due respect I consider you rather paranoid.
Now having read more of your posts my question is answered, your not really an atheist after all, a dinner party one perhaps but not really an atheist.
You also ask what change in policy I would like to see come out of my views. Well read my posting of the 19th of August, the last line and you will be in no doubt what policy I would want.
Lastly indoctrination is indoctrination no matter who does it. Children should be taught, educated, not indoctrinated. They have a right to their own minds.
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So is the theory that the world was created in seven days, but the laws of thermodynamics and carbon dating would suggest otherwise!
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Realistic MS
Hardly anybody throughout history has ever beleived in a flat Earth. Indeed, the acient Egyptians and Greeks even calculated it’s circumference !!!
The Bible tells us that the Universe was created in just 7 days a few thousand years ago, and the entire human race is descended from just two people living in a garden, one of whom was cloned from the other …..
I’m quite happy for creationism to be taught in schools as long as it is fully explained that science can account for the existence of everything both in and including the Universe from literally nothing, wheras religion requires a Creator to have been there first – and rarely if ever seeks to explain where exactly the Creator came from …..
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Isaiah 40:22 The earth is round.
I know my bible well. I always found the book of Job scientific. I should imagine that not many here really have looked at the Bible to the extent that I have so its not really fair to mock.
Job talked about air, light, the earth hanging upon nothing when some were saying it was on the back of a large animal.
I think you fall fowl of believing in a literal 7 days. But by the by I am not here to convert anyone so please don’t shoot me!
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Then you understood that you have misquoted your own bible…
“Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;”
If you had bothered to do any research on your quote you would have discovered that: -
‘The Hebrew word that is used in Isaiah 44:22 (חוּג, chug) does not at all imply a spherical earth. The root word only occurs in the Hebrew Bible once as a verb (Job 26:10). In nominal forms, the same root occurs four times, three as the noun חוּג(chug; Job 22:14, Prov 8:27, Isa 40:22), and once as the noun מְחוּגׇה (mechugah; Isa 44:13), referring to a “circle instrument,” a device used to make a circle, what we call a compass.’
This does not mean that the ‘earth is round’.
The other counter to your post is that if you do not take the religious text literally – then what is the point?
The point about Job is somewhat null as it does not actually provide any scientific proof of what air, light or indeed the Earth is. Job may have talked about it, but he did not ‘prove’ that it was there.
This was my point about science and religion. I don’t believe that you can have both faith and a proper scientific outlook without a contradiction entering. This is why I don’t think it belongs in schools.
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RealisticMS
Is a circle a ball, or a sphere?
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If you only believe in science the world is rather pointless but if you are happy then good. I am not here to argue with anyone. If I want to teach my children science and religion I am within my rights as a parent. That is all I really came on here to say and got sidetracked. I am happy in my beliefs and you are obvously contented in your non religious views so I shall leave it at that. Much time has been wasted on arguements with non believers and I cannot waste my time on that. I would actually be more concerned about the sexual education classes these days than religion. Another thing that parents do not teach their children for themselves.
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RealisticMS,
You walked straight into that one!
Martino,
Read my previous post more carefully!
Pete,
Don’t know about being a ‘dinner party atheist’, but I’ll certainly be dining out for years on the story of the time someone called me that!
Everyone,
Read Karl Popper and Richard Feynman on epistemology, religion and the philosophy of science – let me know once you’ve sorted out which is right!
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I attended Ker Maria (a forerunner of St Mary and St Michael) in the 1960s when there were many children from non-Catholic families. Although there was a Catholic dimension, the main focus of attention was on securing the basics of a solid education with attention given to both academic and behavioural standards. Providing there were places available, families were not turned away because they were not Catholic.
I have friends from the Hindu and Sikh communities in the UK who make a point of sending their children to Catholic primary schools because of that very same focus upon an ethos which attaches primacy to both academic and moral values.
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If your children are not a practising catholics they should go to a non catholic school simple!
sean mcmanus are you saying that ordinary state schools don’t have a main focus of attention on securing the basics of a solid education with attention given to both academic and behavioural standards? otherwise whats the point in non catholics attending catholic schools after all this island is very small. Shame on you
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One parting post to this thread. RealisticMS, There are many science’s in the world, some interesting, some not.
There are many religions also, but I don’t need a religion to see the reason I’m living or why this wonderful world I live on exists. There’s to much to enjoy in it to waste the short time I have on it to bother with what I consider to be the man made irrelevance of religion.
I don’t agree with young children being “taught” religion at school at an age when they do not understand what they are being taught. If people want religion when they are adults then that is all right by me, as that is their adult choice.
To digress slightly,it is not the place of teachers to teach children how to behave that is the parents responsibility
John Surcombe, you got my point but didn’t know it. I suspect you’ve been dining out for many years past on the story of you being an atheist, hence the dinner party bit. But good on you, closet christian or not who’s to deny a man with as sense of humor a good time, and may you have many.
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Kevin.
I am certainly NOT suggesting anything other than that ALL of our schools seek to pursue the highest possible standards.
However, that is not to imply that there may be entirely appropriate differences of emphasis relating to the individual and collective strenghts of the staff or to the input of parents and to the broader supportive community.
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I have to register a degree of horror as to the intolerance for other people’s beliefs and opinions on this thread. Surely we live in a society that has freed itself from the shackles of totalitarianism during Hitler’s rule.
As a free society we should be allowed to chose. But according to the points raised so far I see a distinct hatred of those who hold a religious belief to the point of wanting religion wiped off the planet (another reference to Hitler could be used here).
Religion has indeed caused a number of problems in world history, but let us not forget that it was science that gave us the final solution, it was atheism that gave us the Russian Gulags and the killing fields of Cambodia was not a religious crusade.
Surely all those involved in the debate should simply allow people to chose for their children the education that they would want them to receive. Whilst it may be that John Surcombe choses to send his children to Notre Damn, Vic Gamble may chose to send his children to a non religious school, the important position is that people should have a choice. As long as both options remain viable economically for the state (which they evidently do) then this choice should continue.
Should Notre Damn be so filled with children as to have no spaces left, then I feel that we would need to have a discussion about their selection criteria, but at the moment this is not the case. People want to send their children there and I don’t think that it should be the place of the state to define ill thought out and theologically crazy selection criteria on religious schools.
I would defend to the hilt the right of both John and Vic to their respective opinions, but I find the intolerance on this page a little disturbing to say the least.
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kevin,
I balk at the idea of describing a child as a ‘practising Catholic’. Remember that, for admission to primary school, we are talking about 4-year-olds!
The question of whether it’s right for a non-Catholic, or indeed anyone, to wish their child to be educated in a Catholic school,
has already been thrashed out on this thread.
But that isn’t the question raised by cases like this one – the question is whether it is right for the state to have a policy which disregards the parents’ wishes in this matter.
The Education Department provides two state-maintained Catholic primary schools. They exist in order to be different in character from the regular States schools, because there is demand for schools of this character – i.e. because some parents want them.
How can it be consistent to then disregard the wishes of some parents who would prefer an education of that character for their child?
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“…it was atheism that gave us the Russian Gulags…”
No it wasn’t. It was a brutal, quasi-religious political system. What a stupid comment to make.
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Good post, Elis Bebb.
Tim Berners-Lee, who effectively gifted the current generation the World Wide Web as an open platform is quoted in a recent interview as follows :-
“I was following a Twitter debate on net neutrality recently, when I realised that no one was saying anything in the middle ground. They were all vehement and angry. It may be the case that, with fast communications, reasoned opinions just don’t propogate. These conduits accelerate people’s emotions.”
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Martino
In case you didn’t notice, the gulag system reached it’s high point during Stalin’s time. Stalin believed that religion was the opium of the people and wanted to rid the USSR from all religious practices. In my book I would call that atheism.
I would therefore hold that it was atheism that was the ruling dogma of the USSR during the gulag system’s time where thousands were sent to their death.
Yes it was a brutal regime, but there was no religion attached.
Sean
Thank you. I just feel that emotions should sometimes be tempered.
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Pete,
I only raise the point that I’m an atheist to point up how inconsistent the Education Department has been with its decisions.
As for the dinner parties, the ‘dinner party atheist’ story is working really well by the way – I feel I will be indebted to you for many years! Certainly makes a change from wittering on about climate change…
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You compound your ridiculous assertion Elis Bebb. To say atheism was the underlying cause behind Stalin’s brutal reign is as daft as saying moustaches were to blame. In fact Hitler had a moustache too, although a different kind of tache, so we must be onto something there.
Seriously though, you religious types will never get it. An absence of belief is not itself a creed. It doesn’t cause wars and oppression. Stalin’s rise to power was due him riding on the back of a belief system, however – a belief in the ideas of Marxist communism, which was elevated to religion like status by its followers.
The dialectic that Marx adapted from Hegelian thought was teleological in nature, much like your own Christian religious ‘philosophy’ (I use the word very loosely). In fact I would say that the gulags and the pogroms were manifested by a religion of sorts – a godless religion but a religion nonetheless.
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Martino – I agree that Soviet Communism was most certainly a type of religion.
I’m not sure it was entirely godless though – although in terms of belief in an omnipotent personal deity it most certainly was as godless as you can get. I think one could argue that Stalin himself became a sort of “god” alongside Lenin – having been made the ultimate moral authority and arbitrator of life and death.
Pure atheism would not permit deification of any kind – not even self deification or the implicit deification of another human being, group, cause or object. Now there’s a philosophical teaser for the weekend – I wonder now how many people can say convincingly that they are actually atheists. Certainly a lot of football fans I know couldn’t!
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…Paul, I can say without even a taint of irony that I am a devout atheist….without even trying…
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John Surcombe, don’t worry about it, it’s been fun. You will feel indebted to me for years, especialy when you get the bill over the use of my copyright.
Anyway I no know why you didn’t want your child to become an atheist, you didn’t want them to grow up and open a Culag.
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Martino,
It was an atheist system and large numbers of people were sent to the gulags for their religious belief. Therefore, whilst I agree that there were other reasons, atheism was still a large contributing factor. In the same way as religion was a large contributing factor in the crusades, but the real aim was control over land and taxes in the trade route from Africa to Europe.
I doubt that you’ll agree, but I’m sure that you can make your argument without lowering yourself to name calling and personal attacks.
To return to the subject, I note that the thread so far seems to have a very real dogma attached to it. The dogma that all religious stances are incorrect and that atheism is the answer. Can we not agree to differ and allow people their choice? Or does this particular type of atheism not allow for personal choice? Surely we can all agree that the choice of parents as to their children’s education is a matter for the parents and not the state.
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Elis it was first and foremost a Marxist-Leninist system. You can’t blame it on atheism. Why can’t you see that?
As for saying that a children’s education being a matter for parents and not the state, does that hold good for the Islamic schools exposed by the BBC for indoctrinating British children with extremist anti-semitic and homophobic material imported from that most laudable of theist states Saudi Arabia?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/22/bbc-panorama-islamic-schools-antisemitism
As you can see, how our children are educated is a matter for all of us and not just for parents.
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Elis, we are all atheists. The only difference is that I believe in one god fewer than you.
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Martino,
The state sets the curriculum, the parents chose the school. I didn’t realise that I needed to spell everything out.
I agree with your point on the intolerent material that was used in the Islamic schools as you mention. I would also hope that you agree with me that the UK government should also review it’s foreign aid policy in the same light given the review by the taxpayers alliance http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/fundinghate.pdf so even our own government is guilty of the same sins as that of Saudi Arabia.
The marxist system is an atheist system. Stalin was an avowed atheist as was Mao. Why can’t you accept that atheism, taken to extremes, is just as dangerous as theism when taken to extremes. Not believing in God doesn’t make you a better person. Believing in God doesn’t make you hate homosexuals. Intolerance and bigotry does, and in that respect, I do believe that a tolerant society is what will rid us of extremists. Whilst I believe that there should be the right to express your atheistic views, I also believe that parents have the right to send their children to a Catholic school. I’m not sure that you’re that tolerant and that worries me much more than any discussion over the USSR and it’s policies.
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Having read Mr Bebbs posts I’ve come to the conclusion he dosen’t have a clue what he’s talking about. And even less of a clue when it’s comes to atheists. Go away Mr Bebb.
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HI Elis, I can assure you I am a very tolerant person but when it comes to tolerating intolerance, as exemplified by the Islamic extremists in our midst, we have to take a paradoxical position and not tolerate it at all. The example you give from the taxpayers alliance is a really good case in point and I agree with you fully on that. The brainwashing of those Palestinian kids with the dogma of hate truly is frightening.
Just to clarify my own beliefs (or non beliefs), my gripe all along has been against intolerant and dogmatic religious systems and religious bodies rather than against people who believe in a god or gods. I am indeed an atheist in regard to Christianity, Islam, Scientology and all other man made religions. If you broaden out the god definition a little further and talk about god being some sort of prime moving force or power behind the existence of the material universe around us then I’d have to say I am an agnostic in that sense.
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