Colleges face losing 25% of States grant
Friday 19th August 2011, 2:30PM BST.
TAXPAYER funding for Guernsey’s colleges will be cut by nearly a quarter over the next seven years, if deputies agree.
The schools support the plan but warned that the reduction in income would be difficult to absorb and would push them to ‘the absolute limits of what is viable’.
‘The Policy Council is mindful of the fact that the colleges are an established part of the island’s education system, which have a long history of support from the States,’ Chief Minister Lyndon Trott (pictured) said in the Billet d’Etat today.
Under the plan, the annual £4.88m. grant would be cut by £1.11m. by 2018. It is part of the Financial Transformation Programme, the States’ wide-ranging savings scheme.
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The day after A level results when students and parents across the island are jubilant about the absolutely fantastic set of results Guernsey had seems like a strange time to announce such an incredibly stupid plan.
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I hope thet States will see what a short sighted plan this is. As G says, yesterday we were celebrating A Level results, of which the Colleges educate the lion’s share. The Island needs to support this infrastructure and not weaken it.
Politicians beware. The electorate will be looking very closely at how you vote on this. Please bear in mind that the elections are coming up soon and vote to continue to support funding to allow for the education of future generations. The States sector could not support all of these pupils and if there is an 11+ system then the Colleges need to be adequately funded to be able to receive these pupils. All three Colleges are saying that this is pushing them to the edge of financial viability. A very shortsighted idea indeed.
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Hang on a sec… we’re in 2011 and still supporting an antiquated system of subsiding supposedly private schools!
I’d like the States to remove ALL of the financial support for the private schools. Yes the colleges will have to put up their fees but those who want to send their children there will afford it. Elizabeth College and Ladies’ will manage… Not sure about Blanchelande.
We really do need to show 100% support for our high schools and redirect the finances there.
Nothing will change though… How many States members are ‘Old Boys’…?
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Don’t the States pay less per child at the colleges than at the public schools?
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Oh Dear!! If the fees go up Barnaby and Daisy from Village du Putron may have to go to Beaucamps with Keisha and Conan from Les Genats!
All stops to be pulled out and OE (Old Elizabethans) Deputies mobilized. This must not happen to poor Barnaby and Daisy just because the hedge funds are no longer performing!
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User pays
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This is the old pals/old school tie stuff at work here. If it was a meaningful attempt to cut this totally unjustifiable public subsidy for private institutions then the private schools themselves and OE Trott would be dead against. The proposals as they stand do not go anywhere near far enough. It should be the WHOLE subsidy reduced to ZERO over the next 7 years, which is plenty of time for the private schools to readjust.
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What a good move – after all most of the schools have been rebuilt at great expense now time for the school executives to use their initiatives to make good use of the money that they are allocated.
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A private school should mean just that, however I cannot understand why the states continues to treat the schools music service differently. The sole purpose of the music service is to give private one on one instrument lessons to those chosen to be special enough, why not the same support to other activities such as drama or dance? Let’s take the £700,000 or so it takes and put it to more use for ALL children.
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Firstly, IF this did save £1 million it wouldn’t be reallocated within Education – it would disappear back into general revenue {and probably Tribals back pocket } ( same as savings made anywhere else .. )
Secondly, it wouldn’t actually save £1 million. Some of those currently at the Colleges ( or who in the future would have gone there ) would move into the already overloaded States schools at a cost to Education – and I would suspect this to be particularly noticeable at the Grammar School 6th form …..
By all means cut the subsidy to the colleges – but the total effect on the overall Education budget needs to be considered in order to calculate the actual ( dare I say any ?? ) net saving …
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Paul – you do realise that pupils have to pay to use the Schools Music Service ?
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Let’s not forget that parents/guardians all pay tax and surely that deserves to go towards their childrens education regardless. I remain unbiased but know that not all students going to the colleges are loaded with money as many think. If all funding was removed the islands state schools would struggle if not find it impossible to house all these extra students in an already overcrowded education system. Our colleges are historical institutions within this island and are assets in what our younger generation can achieve. All our schools on this island do fantastic work and it’s not right to penalise the colleges progress as we will lose out as an island in the long run
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Penny,
the colleges are being pushed to the edge of financial extinction.
Is that why E.C. has just built a brand spanking new sports pavilion you know the one by the floodlit all weather playing surface at ONE of their playing fields. Also just announced plans to build a brand new refectory and employ five people to staff it should go well with their luxurious sixth form suite. Hardly sounds like an organization on the bone of it’s a**e does it?
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As a parent of a child at Ladies College, I am rather disappointed. I would like to know the cost per child of a States Education and to compare this number to the subsidy being given to the Colleges, again per child, then I will decide if we are being unfairly subsidised. In addition, please bear in mind parents are paying school fees out of income that is already net of income tax so effectively paying twice. It is our choice to do so and we do so willingly, before someone points out the obvious. This subject is always so inflammatory, so put these statistics out in the public domain so we can truly see how the subsidies sit.
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Dearest Kevin,
You speak of the new sports pavilion, did you see or go inside the old one? I suspect not! Have you been inside the new one, it’s very simple and fulfils a basic hygienic changing for students of the school and visiting teams, it’s not plush by any means.
You speak about them building a new refectory with dining facilities, because there isn’t one at all at the moment and all schools should offer at least somewhere students can buy a good lunch meal, sit and eat it surely.
They did get a new sixth form centre but once again did you see the old one?
Just because things develop and progress like they are at EC and LC doesn’t mean they are any better off than everybody else! All the schools around the island are new or being rebuilt with outstanding facilities so where is your real argument here? My child attends a state school and I don’t feel hard done by, I do however appreciate all the new developments and want to focus on encouraging this and not on preventing the progress of other educational establishments on the island.
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Here we go again!
The colleges are not “private” per se they form part of the education system in Guernsey.
Children either are funded privately to go or win a scholarship via the 11+ system – in the same way as kids that go to Grammer.
As Steve alludes to above this is a very complicated issue and requires rational thought and reasoning – with the numbers clearly stated.
I’d like to know what the plans for scholarships are – these are purely States funded positions within the colleges.
Town Dweller – if you’d had an education at one of the colleges you would realise that your post is entirely fatuous.
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Dearest Ronald,
This is about need. I was highlighting the fact that some people are saying the colleges are or will be “hard up” which on the evidence I gave is clearly not the case. E.C. has access to very substantial monies and frankly doesn’t need any help. Don’t know about L.C. so I can’t comment except to say to Steve find me a cheaper fee paying school than Ladies College I couldn’t find one on the internet. Your getting a fantastic deal.
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Dear Kevin
You’re missing the point.
I am trying to ascertain the cost of educating a child through a states school as clearly this number should be balanced against the number the States pay to the Colleges. I would be unhappy if the States debated this point and did not have these numbers to hand.
If you want to find a useful comparison for fees, rather than searching for some prestigious UK College, try looking closer to home over the water in Jersey with Victoria College and Jersey College for Girls. As it happens Jersey have had exactly the same discussions as we are today on the subject of subsidies with the threads to the “this is Jersey” articles identical to these posts, in fact probably more fierce.
In this age of austerity, cuts will be inevitable, but they need to be carried out in an open and honest manner with all the facts known. What must be avoided is the emotive language that this matter always seems to stir up.
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Steve I wasn’t looking for a prestigious college I couldn’f find ANY public schools with lower fees than Ladies College.However you are right this is an emotive subject and one which I am happy to leave alone. Should be an interesting debate though.
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If I read the full article correctly the heads wrote a joint letter stating that they would try to work within the new funding scheme but warned it would be tough.
So if the heads are willing to work with the new regime, what’s the problem?
We’re in a different world people, no more 90 million pound surpluses anymore. Different times so get used to it.
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Neil the problem is simple
If you cut the subsidy to the colleges, then fees will have to rise.
Some of us sending children to the colleges aren’t millionaire merchant bankers with limitless deep pockets. Electricity bills keep going up, gas bills, fuel bills, grocery bills. Wage inflation isn’t keeping pace. It won’t take much of an increase to push a college place out of the range of financially difficult into financial impossibility for some – at which point Education will be picking up the bill for 100% of a child’s education.
Add into this the fact that fewer pupils at the colleges could lead to even higher fees – thus moving more and more parents out of the difficult bracket and into impossible too.
It may well be that Education have very carefully taken all this into consideration in arriving at their projected savings – but I have yet to see any evidence of it ….
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If a child is pulled out of one of the Colleges by their parents due to the inevitable fee increases, instead of the parent meeting maybe 75% of the child’s education costs the taxpayer would thereafter be paying 100% of those education costs. Multiply that by 200-300 and there is a massive problem for Education, not least the fact that several schools aren’t big enough to absorb significant extra numbers.
What’s being done is right in principle, but its absolutely imperative to strike the right balance between affordability for parents, breakeven for the Colleges and the States having a major problem on their hands.
I would suggest something else. Maintain the current level of States grants to the Colleges but raise their school fees by the appropriate amount and put in place a financing facility whereby the States make loans available to parents to borrow the extra amount of school fees, with the extra fees being paid directly to the States. So if it currently costs say £4,000 per annum in school fees, increase it to £5,000 and the extra £1,000 goes directly to Education from the parents. This helps the Colleges with their budgets as they are still getting what they get now. Something of that nature would make the whole process far more manageable for all concerned.
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tony
if you can’t afford the fees you have a choice may I suggest you get a part time job plenty out there.
when you choose private education you are buying a product if the price of that product rises you have a choice leave it alone or increase your income. like I said plenty of part time jobs out there.
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Kevin -lets be clear again. The colleges are NOT private schools in the UK sense.
They form an integral part of the education system in Guernsey (rightly or wrongly).
I can’t remember the numbers but every year there are scholarships awarded to kids who make the grade during the 11+. These places are directly funded by Education – the rest are fee payers with education partially funding on a per pupil basis.
As GM points out Education have to be very careful how they play this as the potential for a financial cock up is very real.
It costs Education more to educate a child in the “normal” system that at the colleges.
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I seem to recall that the cost to the States of educating a child in the States sector is around £6k per year plié additional overhead costs for the central education department, which is around another £2k.
The Colleges get just over £2k per year for each senior student, nothing for pupils in the primary schools.
Surely this is a good deal for the whole of Guernsey. It keeps costs down and lowers the numbers per class in the States Schools.
I think the real problem will be with Sixth Form. Many people already withdraw their children from the Colleges for Sixth Form to have two free years before the expense of university. The Grammmar School is full to capacity and will not be able to cope with this and this is likely to increase with rising college fees and university fees.
One further point, I believe there are many families who struggle to pay the fees at the moment. This won’t change overnight but going forward faced with a significant rise in fees many families will not consider private schools but will play the 11+ game. They will take up more of the scholarships and Grammar School places and some bright pupils form less affluent families will miss out. If we have an 11+ system then Guernsey has to support the Colleges and not undermine them.
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Kevin, I already work evenings and weekends thankyou very much. That’s the only way I can already afford the fees .
You don’t seem to get the point – If the fees rise too much because of the cut in subsidy, and my child therefore has to be educated in a States school, the net effect will be an INCREASE in cost to Education, not a saving.
Actually, on reflection I say cut the subsidy all together straight away – then there’d be no way I could pay the fees, and I’d instantly be 9K a year better off …….
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Toby
I maybe wrong but I think you are getting mixed up between the Saturday music centre, which parents contribute a small sum too to cover teacher pay etc and the fully states paid for schools music service which gives the free one on one instrument lessons.
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A 25% reduction by 2018, no wonder the colleges are OK with this. Increase the fees to cover the difference, the states still pay the same as they cover the increase for the 11+ pupils. Where are the savings of £1 million? Unless of course the plan is to get rid of the 11+ what is the latest on that old chestnut?
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I would like the states to provide a non denomination school for my children to attend. I am not a church goer and do not like my children being brainwashed with ‘god’ stories at school in the classroom and in assemblies, if I was catholic the states have provided a couple of appropriate schools (Notre Dame and St Marys
St Michael, both of which are states schools) but they do not provide one for athiests and yet there are more athiests than catholics living in the island.
p.s. this post is not intended to offend any church goers, but we are all entitles to our own beliefs.
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Does anyone know what percentage of the college fee-payers (which receive states subsidies) go on to have a university education (probably with a grant from the states) and what percentage of those actually return to the island?
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In order to get the “free” lessons you have to attend the “free” Saturday music centre, and associated concert – miss them without (what to them, not you )is a good reason and you’re for the high jump ….
And pay the annual “registration” fee.
As a side note, in a wonderful piece of joined up States planning, the music service appears to be administered from States Works, not Education’s offices. And every year the Music Service sends out a letter advising you of the “registration” fee, which informs you that Treasury and Resources will then send the actual bill later seperately …. honestly, I don’t think they could waste any more money if they tried ….
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As stated, the Colleges are not private institutions in the sense UK public schools are.
A significant proportion of pupils pay nothing and are educated there instead of in other schools wholly funded by the States. Remember, the States are obliged to procure the provision of education for all children. So, Kevin, as a question of simple economics, there can be no issue of payments by the States being inappropriate, unless you want to engage in social engineering, if it costs the States less per pupil to educate them there than it would do to educate those same pupils at other schools at taxpayers expense. I doubt the Colleges fear publication of those comparative figures.
As to why the Colleges can afford to build new facilities, you will find that is in large part down to the generosity of former pupils and staff. Maybe you would like to snaffle that too, but don’t forget that is the affection they engender among those lucky enough to have attended them that prompts those donations in the first place.
The fact is Guernsey gets a great overall deal from the Colleges. Their alumni have massively contributed to the Island; some would say more than any other group – I would agree. It would be a tragedy if misguided political correctness or envy, your real motivation, damaged them.
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It seems that the Colleges have made a very sensible compromise in this complicated subject. As a parent who will soon need to decide if I want to send my child to college the one area that seems to be overlooked is choice. If I choose private medical cover I don’t see anyone screaming that this is unfair as I am paying twice. If I choose to send my child to college then I would also accept if I had to pay the full price, once again I have made a choice. By opting to choose a private service over a states service then I am making a consumer choice. One I may add is only available if you are fortunate enough to be able to afford to have this option.
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Oh Dear….. if the States have to cut the College’s hand-outs. Surely only poor people should have their hand-out’s cut, like Mrs Gallienne’s widow’s pension.
Hopefully the recession will be a great leveller for Islanders, and one half will soon find out how the other half live, or should I say just about survive.
For the information of Gilthead I did spend SOME of my school life being privately educated.
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Fir
I agree the “paying twice” ‘argument’ is a load of nonesense – and I am quite happy to pay twice if I receive a benefit from doing so.
Your last line is the crucial one – if any propsed “savings” create too many who can no longer afford the option, nothing will be saved ….
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I was going to suggest more funding given the fact without the colleges then guernsey education system would collapse without sufficient schools to meet the additional 1500 children. The ED has effectively outsourced the education for approx 50% of the cost it would need to be educated through it’s system and would probably need to spend 100m to build new schools to accommodate them. 52 people currently going to grammar this year would have been going to other schools as without college, they would not have won a place.
I personally would like us to be more radical
1. No scholarships
2. All those who pay towards an education of a child or graduate should be seen as something encouraged and be tax deductible. Colleges put fees up to 11k and parents get a 2.5k rebate. This should be for all including those who contribute to university, college or adult education as our future depends on having educated Guerns
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Calm down mike!
My arguement is that E.C. does not need the help from the taxpayer so why give it?
Tony,
enjoy spending your 9k
fir
your spot on!
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All you parents who are complaining about The States cutting the subsidy just remember that you are the ones who brought the brats into existance so you can pay the fees if you want to brag that your brat “goes to College”.
Sell off your 4 wheel drive Chelsea Tractors, that should pay for a couple of terms fees. Sell your Burbury handbags and designer shoes, there`s another couple of terms worth and fill in the swimming pools and grow veggies (saving on food bills).
I`m sure that one holiday a year should be enough and I`m sure there are many other savings you can make to get “the little darlings” through school to grow up feeling superior to all the other kids.
I`m sure you`ll find a way to cope even if it does mean asking your parents for your inheritance early.
Where there`s a WILL there`s a way. Get it?
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Toby,
My understanding is that the Music Service is at States Works due to there not being sufficient space at the Education Department. I assume this is a more cost-effective location than leasing space from the private sector.
In respect of invoicing, surely having a single point of revenue collection should be more efficient?
Sounds like reasonable arrangements to me…
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Collegeparent
You are obviously in a different financial situation to many parents who choose a college education for their children. Some years ago our eldest child won a scholarship to College and enjoyed all that the College offers so much so that we decided to pay for our youngest to join the school also. Why should the normal ‘man in the street’ be denied the chance of College education? It seems to me that your attitude serves to keep the Colleges totally elitist. This serves to ‘wind up’ a large number of the local population.
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Nocon, it’s those “brats” that are going to be working to fund your keep in your old age, pay your medical bills etc. So try not to be TOO distateful eh?
I can’t really say any more than what has been said already – there is a great number of children educated for the States at a reduced rate at the colleges, and I would expect (although I admit I have no data to back this up) that a disproportionate contribution is made by those children at the Colleges in later life to the Island’s purse, both directly through tax, and indirectly through revenue raising in enterprise.
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@Toby
The Music Service along with the Youth Service will be moved down to the ‘slightly refurbished’ ex-St Peter Port School along with the other GCFE Programme Areas based at Brock Road (ex-Boys Grammar). This will become Les Ozouets Campus. Meaning CoFE will still be on multiple sites – the others being Delancey (ex-St. Sampson’s School), Coutanchez and the Alderney Adult Ed site.
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I’m a teacher at one of the ‘high’ schools. Whenever I tell people this, they say things like ‘You’re brave’ or ‘You poor thing’ or ‘You have to teach those little scrotes’…
Well I love teaching there! 99.9% of the kids are fantastic and I’m sure those parents who fear sending their children to us and instead fork out for college would realise that too.
The divide between the private schools and high schools is reinforced by the States of Guernsey continuing with this early C20th concept of grants and special places.
Only when the scholarships and funding goes altogether will the stigma of going to a ‘high’ school be removed.
Most parents who really want to send their children there will do so… BUT would it really be such a bad thing if Guernsey had a 100% state-run school system? More cost? In the short-term perhaps.
The old-school tie won’t allow it…
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What seems to be forgotten here are some pretty simple maths.
First, a high proportion of those attending EC/LC – circa 40% when I was at EC, pay nothing – simply being granting 100% scholarships on passing what used to be the 11 plus. Then, the States pay LESS to the Colleges for those on scholarships(whom the STATES are required to educate anyway)than the fees paid by fee payers for their children. Moreover, the states also pay LESS than the the cost of educating those scholarship children anywhere else.
It follows that fee earners pay on average more per child at the Colleges than the States pay. So, if no scholarship children were taken by them, ignoring reallocation of overheads (which I will come to), more resources per child would be available to the children of fee payers. I am not a fee payer.
Thus, in reality, there is no subsidy being made available by the States to fee payers. In fact, the benefits flow entirely the other way around – what is happening is that fee paying parents ARE SUBSIDISING THE STATES in two ways. Not only do the States get off in not payning for fee payers’ children (fair enough as you say – that a consumer choice) BUT they, almost uniquely, get fee payers to subsidise the education of large numbers of children other than their own.
The reduction in States payment therefore represents not some reduction in an over-generous subsidy given by the States to fee payers at the Colleges, but a demand for an increase in the subsidy paid by fee earners to the States for others’ children.
I have never heard of a UK public school taking such a high proportion of children at less than the going rate – rather than penalising the Colleges, the States should be thanking their lucky stars.
In simple economic terms, the logical response of the Colleges to a cut in these payments would be to amalgamate them to cut overheads, then refuse to take any money from the States BUT ALSO REFUSE TO TAKE ANYONE WHO DOESN’T PAY FULL FEES. As they own their assets absolutely, they are free to do so.
However, that is not what anyone wants because that will deny children whose parents don’t have the means to pay to a better education and will damage the unique sense of community/affection engendered by them. But that Kevin and Nocon is precisely where the logic of your politics of envy lead – and to an increase in your taxes.
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@Questor
My real “moan” is about the inefficiency and pointlessness of the whole system ( and not the charge – it’s a bargain for what you get out of it )
Given that Education already know where pupils live, what school they go to, contact details etc. – It seems ludicrous to me that the Schools Music Service then has to collect all this data again – and charge £60 to do so – and then in my mind needlessly duplicate paperwork.
But then this is Guernsey we’re talking about here …
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Toby you are eluding to the whole issue with the states as outlined by the various consultants, that the states has allowed all the various departments to operate individually creating their own little empires. This creates smaller expensive enclaves such as the Music service which employs various levels of staff who already exist within the Education dept. After all our children already have Music supplied at school do we need another layer costing an additional £700,000 or so per annum. A clear saving to be had but will States/Education take it?
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Mike
You set out your financial perspective with great clarity; thanks.
You refer to “…children whose parents don’t have the means to pay to a better education…” Could you outline the ways in which the education those children might get would be better than that offered by alternative forms of provision?
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Mike
where is the envy in any of my posts.
I could afford to send my kids to college if I wanted to fact is I chose not to. two have been through uni cost me £66,000 got a small subsidy from the taxpayer which I’m grateful for.your ideas are way off beat maybe the states should remove their subsidy entirely but have more scholarships to raise the overall academic quality of the pupils at E.C.People should have the choice to send their kids to fee paying schools but if you can’t afford it get off your backsides and get a part time job to pay for it. Also there appears to be a bit of a witch hunt by the pro subsidy lobby(collegeparent, mike) against the scholarships if you can’t see that these pupils bring more to the table than the fee payers your out of your minds. More scholarships I say! or would that take away the elitist feel of paying for private education.
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Mike,
Could I suggest that you read the Billet and get your facts right? The States pays EXACTLY THE SAME per pupil as fee-paying parents. This is why the States’ expenditure on the part tied to fees has gone up by around 7% annually – because they pay exactly the same fees and the Colleges have increased their fees at a rate above inflation. Then they kindly donate £2k or so towards the cost of all pupils, regardless of whether they are Special Place Holders or fee-paid.
P.S. Also in the same Billet it is demonstrated in simple terms that it would be less expensive for the States to educate these pupils within the States sector – but there is an acceptance that there is insufficient capacity to do so.
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Let’s look at this situation another way.
Imagine a Guernsey where there were no private schools, and every child was educated 100% at taxpayers’ expense. Some deputies then come up with this brilliant wheeze: they offer relatively well-off parents the opportunity to pay 75% of the education cost for their children themselves, in return for being able to congregate in a single school. In one step, the taxpayer saves money and a group of parents feel relief at their offspring being kept away from ‘undesirables’.
Remember, parents who send their children to private schools have already paid (as taxpayers) for their child’s education, to the same extent as every other parent (and more so, if they are high earners and therefore pay more tax). They have then freed up this state-funded place by putting their child into a private school.
It’s an inconvenient fact if you are a class-war socialist, but a fact nonetheless.
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Questor, you have to compare like with like. Bear in mind that the Colleges have built, upgraded and maintained their premises with the fees they receive.Whenever Education need a new building, or major refurbishment or repairs, they are given it for free by the States. If capital expenditure were included in the calculations the cost per pupil would go through the roof …..
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Sean,
‘A better education’.
One way in which the education is better is that the children are educated along with other children whose parents have the will and the means to chose to pay. This is true to a limited extent with the status quo. It might be a runaway train if you remove the scholarships which make this diversity of education available to everyone.
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There have been several posts above extoling the intelligence of former EC and LC students, who contribute significantly towards Island life.
Why can’t these ex students get together and pool their excessive amounts of intelligence to devise ways of dealing with the above cut? After all it is only 25% and at least one of them must have a few workable proposals?
It can’t be that hard OEs!
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“they offer relatively well-off parents the opportunity to pay 75%……a group of parents feel relief at their offspring being kept away from ‘undesirables’.”
This is what’s inherently wrong with tax funding the well-off in a nutshell.
Taxation isn’t supposed to give ‘relief’ to the well-off from their petty foibles and crude sociopathic tendencies. It’s there (in education’s sense) to improve the lives of all children. If you can afford to play out your ‘class war’ against the poorer ‘undesirables’, then do so by all means. Just expect to shoulder the cost yourself.
Thios argument is the reality of the situation. The other arguments surrounding the existing infrastructure etc have more merit, but at it’s most basic, the well-off feel entitled to taxpayers money in order for their children to be segregated.
Oh, and this meme
“They have then freed up this state-funded place by putting their child into a private school.”
Is the writer here assuming there is a child who is currently not receiving education and is therefore grateful for the well-off’s magnanimity?
People are constantly at pains to point out what’s wrong with the way Guernsey is run, its politicians and its law makers etc. I would hazard a guess that the top echelons of Guernsey’s political and legal infrastructure are mostly made up of ex college pupils.
If you’re happy with that, stop criticising.
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james would you be prepared to tell us EXACTLY what you mean by “undesirables”.
By the way the already paid twice arguement is a complete red herring and has been blown out of the water so many times can we not leave it alone now?
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Finance industry office fodder .. even with a’plastic’degree in something or other .. £15-£20 per hour?
Self employed undesirable Plumber/Carpenter/Plasterer/Electrician .. £30 – £40 per hour?
Who’s paying back the most tax throughout their working life?
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‘Undesirables’ means anyone you’d rather your child doesn’t associate with. As you noticed, it’s ‘undesirables’ rather than undesirables – i.e. it’s a subjective term.
Some people might not like the fact that people desire not to associate with a complete cross-section of society, but it’s a fact of life. Holiday destination and housing price variation bear witness to that. Want a house in the Bouet area? It’ll be cheaper than an equivalent one in Fort George.
I’m not arguing that this attitude is right or wrong, I’m arguing that the States have found a way of making this tendency save taxpayers money. If you stop it, taxpayers may well be liable to pay more money – just like if you stopped people paying more for a house in a ‘nice’ area you’d lose more tax revenue.
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I really would like to say that I am a single mother and I sent my son to Elizabeth College, he was told at a state school that he had no chance of gaining ANY GCSE’s, however after taking him out, he’s now gained all of his GCSE’s at B’s and above and has just received his A Level results and was accepted into his first choice of university. I would like to point out that the money the states pay towards the private schools, actually pays for the students who pass their 11+.. so does would mean those students who pass the 11+ won’t be able to attend??
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Surely the simple answer is to put up school fees to cover the required cut in States’ funding but then to make the payment of school fees (to Guernsey schools only) a tax-deductible expense for the parents. Then its all totally transparent and there is a more direct recognition of the fact that the parents are not using their absolute right to get their children educated for free.
I remain unconvinced that the States have properly considered the implications of a significant withdrawal of children from the Colleges to move into the States’ system. I can’t help thinking that they are doing nothing more than crossing their fingers and hoping that not many will move. If they are wrong then they have a massive problem on their hands as it would then be a totally false economy.
Toby
I’m not sure about Ladies College or Blanchelande but I know for certain that the OEs Association have raised a millions from amongst their ranks to pay for various major capital expenditure projects. That’s money that the States have not needed to find.
It really worries me that this is largely about envy and “class wars” than anything else, but once Les Beaucamps and La Mare de Carteret have both been upgraded we will have three fantastic High Schools plus an exceptional Grammar School which should alleviate much of that envy.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
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Ray
You’re assuming the £15-20 office fodder remains so for his or her entire working life – not likely.
Also, the charge out rate for the sparky etc has to pay for a lot more than his salary. After his costs, it’s probably not too dissimilar. And I do know of quite a few tradesmen who ahem like cash jobs… nudge nudge and all that.
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Neer do well
These ex students of E.C. don’t need to do that because the place has access to huge sums of money from benefactors as well as the fees they get from pupils parents. chris j could you explain your last post in more detail. Surely you think fee payers get a better education because they are educated alongside the top 23 or so academic students in each year in the island or do you think the brightest students gain from being with students of various ability levels just because the parents pay?
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James
That deserves a response.
“Remember, parents who send their children to private schools have already paid (as taxpayers) for their child’s education”
I’m sure over the years a portion of my tax has gone to pay for the QE2 marina, however, of which I can gaze upon and walk around free of charge. However, if I want to moor my boat in it, I would expect to get charged.
Moving on…………
And I really wouldn’t go down the route of who’s paid more tax over what period, that’s just silly.
Removing the scholarships is a dead end road; remove that then the argument must be no funding at all.
Work within new budgets, cut your cloth a bit, we are all having to do it and raise the fees a tad to cover any costs.
New dawn people.
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If we have an 11+ system, and that is a big if, then the Colleges are integral to that system and have to receive sufficient support.
I can’t see how the politicians can consider the cut in grant without opening up the whole 11+ debate, something they seem desperate to avoid. The funding of scholarship places was also included in Tribal’s report on savings that could be made. It is interesting that this idea has been quietly dropped as, one suspects, it is too political.
The Colleges seem wary of sticking their head above the parapet on this one but it is hard to see how they will really cope with it. I forecast the need for another £50 million States School/Grammar School extension before the end of the decade as parents struggle to pay the fees.
What’s cheaper in the long run?
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Ray
The finance worker will undoubtedly pay more tax, you don’t think anyone declares £60k or £70k to the taxman do you??
£20k to £25k is more like it once expenses have been deducted from income (paid by cheque or bank transfer). The cash stays firmly out of his reach, do you take us all for mugs or something?
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Sean – better education. Simple – if the States drive fees up by this move causing a transfer to the State sector, there won’t be enough places at Grammar School (the nearest alternative as the States themselves admit.
Also, have you looked at the comparative A*to B grade A level results of the Grammar v LC recently (the most commonly quoted measure of a school’s ability to get its pupils into a good university). I have daughters. On 2010 figures – Grammar 58% but LC 79% (more that a third better). The comparative exam performance is pretty consistent. So does it cost more? Not really, LC (£7081 per pupil) v Grammar (at £7829 – para 4.17 of the Billet). Now I’m not knocking the Grammar school, its a good school – what I am saying is the Colleges deliver a very good outcome for the Island in terms of results for the cost. They should be applauded and not be penalised.
Kevin – you misunderstand. I absolutely support scholarships (and I agree with more of them) but I do not think that cutting funding to the Colleges is the way to go here. For example, the States aim to save £1.1m. Based on those unit costs, if only 20 kids per year(remembering they stay at the Colleges for 7 years through sixth form) leave to go the State sector through increased fees that saving will be entirely lost and, given current capacity constraints, 20 deserving kids may well be denied the education they should get. This whole review is massively short sighted. As to envy – I refer to Nocon’s post amongst others.
On the subsidy point – the fact remains each set of parents paying fees at the Colleges effectively subsidise the States to the tune of about £5600 pa per pupil (ie per pupil unit cost at the Grammar School minus per pupil capital grant(£2179)). Now, I don’t have the figure for the average income tax paid per person in the Island, but I will bet that subsidy is not a million miles away and may well be more.
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Penny
You have hit several nails on the head. It has to be a fully integrated strategy, not a piecemeal one, and you are quite right that the States would be likely to have to build another big school which seems rather pointless just to destroy the Colleges and the Grammar School when the system already works. It will NOT save the States money if they get it wrong – it will cost a heck of a lot more.
Carry on upgrading the high schools – that’s a no brainer and long overdue – but don’t destroy what works to try (and fail) to save some money, destroying a system WHICH WORKS FOR GUERNSEY!
This is an issue which we do not need to blindly follow the UK on yet again for the sake of liberal leftiness. The composite overall exam results for Guernsey’s schools speak for themselves.
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Cash in hand
Sorry mate. I was rather hoping that everyone would be willing to ‘take one for the island’ to help finance the airport runway relocation,the O.U.R.,the armoured vehicles,States members fact finding missions abroad,the storage of ancient bones and limpet shells,ten weeks of roadworks for a private company entrance,a deep water tanker berth and all the costs of tribunal appeals against Environment decisions
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Mike – re costs, bear in mind that around 50% or more of the students at the Grammar School are in the Sixth Form, which has a lower pupil:teacher ratio so higher staff costs per pupil (also probably increased costs for materials etc.). I’d guess that in EC/LC that proportion is more like 20% or so, therefore it’s not a straightforward comparison.
Regardless of comparitive costs, parents are clearly prepared to pay to educate their children outside the State system. That is, quite correctly, entirely their choice. However, the lack of a significant decrease in numbers at EC despite well above RPI rises in fees suggests that cost is not necessarily the main factor in parents’ decisions.
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Penny – re needing a new building, don’t the States already own the Ladies College site? The Billet also notes that ownership of the Elizabeth College building “is not entireley clear” (para 4.3)
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billythefish,
it`s taken me a long time to reply to your post to me but I can tell you that the “brats will not be paying for my upkeep as I won`t be around when they`re old enough to work of live off the dole.
I have paid all my dues in taxes and insurances over my 51 years of working for a living. I have paid enough into the coffers and expect The States to keep their end of the bargain and let me have some of it back.
I will be claiming only that which I deserve to claim like medical benefits, free prescriptions and pension because I have saved for my retirement and don`t need to scrounge as a lot do. I am completely debt free which I doubt most can`t boast.
So you see I have no need for the spoilt brats at all, besides most of them will have left Guernsey once they`ve scrounged enough out of their parents and the tax payers.
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why are you comparing costs at the grammar school? Why do you think that pupils from the colleges should automatically go to the grammar school if the colleges fold( they wouldn’t even if there was no taxpayer subsidy.)
there is absolutely nothing to suggest that fee payers at the college would pass the 11+ indeed that’s why a lot of them are there.Also if the colleges don’t think pupils will pass an exam they don’t enter them thus keeping pass rates up. mike you must really think that us plebs educated by the state schools are thick . non of your arguements stack up. If you wish to pay for private education fine but please pay the going rate! As i’ve said before fee payers have had a fantastic deal with the proposals as they are you’ll just get 25% lass of a fantastic deal. i’m still paying income tax and I’ve no children at school should my tax bill go down? Of course not you can’t cherry pick what your taxes are spent on.
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The problem here is one of economics coming up hard against principles.
I send a child to College ( actually their choice not mine ) and the subsidy helps to make that affordable. I do not feel I have a right to the subsidy, and I totally understand the point of view that fee payers perhaps should not get it on principle( regardless of the paying twice nonesense trotted out by people who should know better ).
However, it is a fact that anyone who chooses to pay to educate their child at the colleges rather than sending them to a States run school is SAVING Education money at the moment – reducing the subsidy, or scrapping it altogether, has the potential to cost Education a significant amount, far outweighing any potential savings.
It might seem sensible to means test the subsidy ( including scholarship places ) so that only those who actually need it get it – which I would hope would remove most of the objections to it, and potentially save a significant amount – but apparently Education can’t administer means testing due to a lack of staff ….. and they can’t take on any staff because there is supposed to be a cap on the civil service in order to keep costs down ……. welcome to joined up Guernsey government ….
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Kevin – the Grammar School is a valid comparison because it provides the only alternative for an, almost, similar standard of education (and, by the way, passing the 11 plus is no barrier to entry into the sixth form for which the GS is/or was the only alternative and so the only comparator). In any event, the subsidy point still applies whatever school is selected – as figures in the Billet make clear.
Given your point about the Colleges’ folding (your reveal your real motive finally?) maybe you want to bring standards down? No you say – well are you willing to freely put your hand in your pocket and pay the extra £5 to 10 million in taxes per annum that subsidy represents (and more) to educate all children to their standard? No again – I thought not. Your criticism of my recent post seems to suggest that you don’t believe the Colleges do a good job for the Island. I will leave others and history to judge that.
Previously you questioned where “envy” came into this discussion, Your use of the word “thick” in relation to fee paying pupils and references to the schools failing clearly demonstrate your motives.
So aside from envy, all your argument comes down to is that the Guernsey treatment of the Colleges is not the same as that of the UK treatment of its independent sector and/or the moral argument that taxpayers money is being misused.
My point above goes to the taxpayer issue. Further, those fee paying parents probably paid a big chunk of that tax in the first place. We can all play the moral game – it adds nothing worthwhile to this debate. For example, I trust you can demonstrate that throughout your life you have paid more in taxes than consumed in state benefits and services – one thing is for sure, your education cost the taxpayer more than the pupils who were paid for.
The UK comparison is completely fatuous.
Apart from the obvious discrepancies in scale, there is no excess capacity in in key areas Guernsey. Unlke the UK (where only 8% of children are educated in the independent sector) in the 6th form in Guernsey around 30 to 40% of kids take their A Levels at the Colleges, wth the “thick” fee payers still passing it seems (how can that be I wonder?). Guernsey is therefore hugely dependent on the Colleges and mucking about with the fee structure is risky. As there is no capacity, parents have no choice but to pay. If they don’t, either their children or someone else’s will be deprived of the educational opportunity – hopefully it won’t be yours.
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Ray
Sorry to dash your hopes, but I prefer to spend my tax free cash on beer, designer clothes and the occasional new 4×4 pick up truck. I believe I’m putting it to better use than the States ever could, do you agree?
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Questor
the point about comparative costs is valid, although LC still provides a great performance for the cost for its results compared to GS and the UK sector. on fee sensitivity, the states propose a 25% reduction in support with the same requirement for scholarship places. with a 50% revenue dependency of the colleges on that support, the jump in fees required will be much higher than 25% even before inflation. if you are wrong, there will be a real problem. worth the risk for a max potential saving of £1.1 million?
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On the morning of the GCSE results it is perhaps particularly appropriate that we determine what Mike and others mean by a “better education” being available at some of our schools than others.
If we can distil what it means to be “better” then we might wish to offer such an opportunity to more or all of our youngsters and thus improve the life chances of greater proportion of our community and reduce the expensive dependency culture that some observers have identified in modern Guernsey.
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There are some pretty interesting posts here. If the 11+ were scrapped then wouldn’t the colleges simply give scholarships to the top scorers in their own exam? If all the scholarship kids went to Grammar/6th form centre then the marks and achievement of the Grammar would dwarf that of the colleges – the colleges would then have to close as their whole marketing campaign of superior education (ie GCSE/A level results) would collapse and as a result who would want to pay to go there? It is well known that they already farm the low achievers off to the 6th form centre to bolster their own marks and in spite of that the 6th form centre continues to excel. The colleges NEED the scholarship kids. A good move by the colleges would be to administer their own set of percentage scholarships for high achievers whose parents may struggle to pay the increase whilst raising the fees even higher for everyone else. For only if the results remain high then people will pay- and pay they will.
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Just to put most people straight, the annual fee to EC is around £8,300 and I should know, I paid it..!!
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Single mum you point is?
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kevin,
No, I certainly don’t think the education at College is better because of the scholarships. Well, not much at any rate. That would be massively overstating the power of the 11+ as a tool for determining student potential.
That is not to detract from the talent of children who are high-fliers at 10 or 11 – I just don’t think we should lock them, and their lower-flying contemporaries, into a system which assumes those same children will still be the high-fliers at 14, or 16, or 18, or 21.
And the same parents who can afford the fees also have the option to use private tuition to puff up 11+ results. I don’t blame parents for doing it, but it’s a really ugly state of affairs that it happens.
Overall, it’s a total mess frankly – if you want to know what I really think, it’s that the 11+ system is really badly broken, there is a lack of real diversity in our Education system, a lowest-common denominator approach to achieving fairness and equal opportunity, too much meddling from the Grange and not enough autonomy or responsibility for staff and parents. Demotivated children, dependency culture, and all these bitter comments over College funding are just some of the symptoms of much more fundamental problems.
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Sean
What is “better education”? If you think that what matters is how that education affects your life chances (as you suggest), you might also say that a better education improves your life chances more than a poor one. So how do we test that? A reasonable proxy is the test Universities apply for entry. As everyone knows, it mainly relates to the grades students get in their A Levels. Which is precisely why I praised LC’s A level results earlier. Thus, schools that deliver good results (and improve life chances)should not be damaged lightly.
Kevin
The GS is a good (only) comparator because it is another school where A levels can be studied, which is wholly States funded and where, by the way, 11 plus success isn’t a hurdle to 6th form entry. Also note – a large chunk (most of) the kids in EC/LC are there as fee payers because they went to Beechwood/Melrose and simply aren’t allowed to take the 11 plus entry route. Would they have passed the 11 plus – who knows, but what we do know is, after a College education, their Levels/GCSE results and University destinations stand up well – so are/were they thick as you imply?
I make no assumption about where kids would end up if the Colleges closed or large numbers tried to transfer because, quite simply, there isn’t the capacity for them anywhere on the Island.
My main point, and the only question States members should consider is simple. Is this proposed cut good for the Island as a whole or not (even if some sections of the community benefit from States funding of the Colleges more than others)? In practical terms – do the risks outweigh a maximum saving of £1.1m. In my view the answer is no. There is a real risk, given school capacity constraints and the likely scale of fee increases required to cover the shortfall, that a significant number of pupils will (try) to transfer to the State sector costing more and damaging kids opportunities throughout the community.
I say this not because because I want to send my kids to Colleges – I don’t. I did go to EC and generations of my family have and do go to the Colleges (some as fee payers, some not) and have done well as a result – so I want to protect them. I derive no comfort from your assurance that their viability is unaffected by the level of States funding.
The argument that fee payers should pay more rests, ultimately, on the idea that any State funding is a misuse of taxpayers money and all fees should be paid by the user – your initial point. But what if, as is the case I believe, the existing system delivers a good result for the Island as a whole or changing the system would damage the Island?
One might argue, as the UK Government did, that it is grossly unfair on other taxpayers to permit tax relief on mortgages, as Guernsey does, to enable some people to buy bigger houses. It also artificially inflates the housing market etc. But here’s the thing – if you remove such tax relief in Guernsey, the damage done to confidence/personal wealth/the economy may well be huge. I don’t have a mortgage and so don’t benefit from the tax relief, but for precisely those reasons I don’t want it to be abolished, even though its a great deal for others. My views on College funding follow that approach.
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sunglemum
and your point is?
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Truth be told, if you see how the “private” educated children act outside of their parents eyes, then you will probably agree with the States.
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‘When I were a lad’ we did O levels at EC and the secondary schools did CSE which, I believe became GCSEs. There was a distinction between the two and, if my memory serves me well an A in a CSE was equivalent to a ‘pass’ in O level world. Still with me?
If the kids are doing the same exams now, which I believe they do, then difference in pass rates between Secondary schools and EC would have to be huge to have maintained the perceived difference between State and Private.
Aren’t all schools getting 90% plus, yada yada, pass rates nowadays?
If correct then, there was an obvious benefit 30 years ago; but what now is the difference between State and Private?
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Sean / Neil
To help quantify “better” – 20 or so years ago at Elizabeth College I took and passed 13 O / AO Levels, 2 AS Levels and 4 A Levels ( and that’s Maths and Science A / AS levels, not Media studies …. ).
Was the standard of education any better than at the Grammar School ? Possibly not.
Was my overall pass rate any better ? almost certainly not ….
But I do know that I had a far broader Education , and ended up with more qualifications. Some would say that difference was / is worth paying for – and I for one am grateful for it ( and for the amount of money I now realise my parents lavished on an ungrateful little brat who could have done so much better ! )
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Neil
… but what now is the difference between State and Private? The difference between State High Schools (not the grammar school) and Private is that at the Private schools the percentage of students wishing to work as opposed to mess around and distract their classmates is far higher. As a fee paying parent what you are paying for is an environment more likely to get the best out of the majority of pupils whereas in some high schools (one in particular springs to mind) the teachers have to spend a disproportionate amount of time disciplining pupils to the detriment of those who wish to work.
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Yes neil I remember o levels too and when i was at the grammar school we did oxford&cambridge whilst E.C. did London which at the time were considered easier.
toby the arguement is nothing to do with academics it’s whether or not the people you and burdock and the like refer to should help susidise education at the colleges. so even though you may be a mastermind please stick to the issue.
mike stop playing around you know full well that most of the pupils at the grammar are not in the sixth form and anyway i was not implying anyone was thick I’ll leave words like thick, undesirables et al to you guys who support the fact that relatively poor people are subsidising fees at the colleges through their taxes exam results are irrelevant on this issue because we are talking about funding i repeat feepayers have had it on the cheap for years and now may have to pay more get over it!
burdock
burdock you miss the point completely the arguement is should fee payers be subsidised.
rachel, nice post
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Toby
I accept the general thrust of your argument. That’s generally how I felt about my time there; that’s a while ago now though. Especially the ‘ungrateful little brat bit’.
Burdock
Your sentiments weren’t any different to when I were younger. Some parents wanted to ensure their children were in a more ‘traditional’ academic environment; less disruption from the prols I guess.
But as ever, these discussions swerve off course. This is actually about subsidisation and ultimately fee payers’ parents have made a consumer choice.
Therefore given that we aren’t being gifted our 90million surpluses any more, if the schools can’t find away of working under the new budget restraints, then the fees will go up.
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a lot of the posts on this thread have lost the plot and I’ve been as bad as anyone.
when you really crystalize this down the only question is should the taxpayer contribute to the colleges? all of the rest is just propaganda either way. for me the answer is no. I dont think it right that the very people whose children feepaying parents are trying to keep their children away from (undesirables apparently) should contribute to the colleges. Realtively poor people shoild not contribute in any way to help relatively well off people to educate thier children. simples.
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Kevin. Well put. I have avoided saying as much myself, as it will undoubtedly be shot down by those who would over complicate the situation to justify it as ‘over simplifying’ the situation to denigrate it, but in essence, that is EXACTLY the case.
Why, indeed, should we all contribute to the private education of the few?
If people want to send their kids to private school, they are absolutely entitled to, and should pay for it, ALL of it, not be subsidised by the rest of us…and for what, exactly? A few crumbs from the table in the form of Scholarships and the apparent ‘savings’ that the private schools are making for the States run equivalents by so altruistically taking pupils out of that system (for a fee, of course)?
well excuse me whilst I pull my forelock and back away bowing gratefully for such a magnanimous gesture.
A good education away from the ‘undesirables’ it may be, but the arrogant, elitist attitude that is systematically indoctrinated into the pupils at the Colleges is not a quality that is particularly attractive or helps the individual relate to the ‘common’ man…….
anyone who doubts that should tune into the next States meeting.
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With all the furore concerning the release of GCSE statistics, it isn’t a great time for the States to be looking at their funding of the Colleges which are integral to the whole system and help keep the island results high.
The Education Department have had a nightmare few weeks and, like her or loathe her, Carol Steere’s re-election chances are looking bleaker.
The States needs to review the provision of educuation as a whole, including the 11+, rather thanks try and make a quick save now which might not end up as a saving at all. I hope the States call for a much wider debate on the education system in Guernsey and how good a job the ever expanding Education Department are doing.
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penny
you make a great arguement for the Education Dept to choose now to look at funding the colleges because if the GCSE results are poor at the high schools and the colleges and grammar really good won’t that tell education exactly where their funding priorities should be?
By the way why are the colleges integral to the whole system?
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