Police accused of racist abuse of black motorist
Monday 19th September 2011, 2:30PM BST.
AN APPALLED advocate has accused three police officers of racially abusing a black man by calling him ‘boy’.
A formal complaint by Advocate Peter Ferbrache has led to the incident being referred to the police professional standards department and the independent Police Complaints Commission.
The 60-year-old lawyer (pictured) said, in a letter to police chief Patrick Rice, that he and his wife had been walking past the former Woolworths building when he saw three officers questioning the man, whom he believed to be in his 30s, who had parked there.
‘The young black man was perhaps a little lippy in the sense that he said “breathalyse me if you want – I’ve just finished work”.’
It was at that point that Mr Ferbrache distinctly heard an officer call the man ‘boy’.
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No surprise really
Another guernsey shambles
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I fail to seee how calling someone “boy” constitutes racial abuse!!!
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Well it does say the man was young – is ‘boy’ a word that exclusively refers to young black men now then? I’m no great fan of the police but I can easily imagine a situation where they might refer to a lippy young white man as ‘boy’. It is a bit of a put-down but I would not consider it a racist epithet.
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So the word ‘boy’ is now racist? Pathetic!!
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Cue barrage of comments about political correctness gone mad, or other such nonsense.
I don’t believe for a second that an advocate would file a formal complaint of racism with the police because they called a man ‘boy’. So what else happened that informed the situation?
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I have no idea how “boy” can be construed as a racist term. As someone living in the real world (i.e. outside of the island), I would say the 60 year old advocate needs to get out more…..
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Maybe the officer in question had been watching a video of ‘In the Heat of the Night’ and got carried away?
Rod Steiger as Police Chief Bill Gillespie: “Got a name, boy?”
Sidney Poitier as Virgil Tibbs: “Virgil Tibbs.”
Steiger: “Virgil? Heh, heh, heh, heh! Well, I don’t think we’re going to have any trouble, are we, Virgil?”
Poitier: “No trouble at all.”
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Or maybe Advocate Ferbrache had been watching a video of ‘In the Heat of the Night’ and got carried away?
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Calm down you lot, there was NO racial abuse involved in this case and the bloke involved was 40. If he was called a boy, then yes, he has every right to be angry! Before jumping on the Guernsey BS bandwagon, know your facts!
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The word “boy” when used in reference to anyone of a colour other than white is extremely racist and derogatory. Try calling someone “boy” down in Alabama or Sarf London come to that and see how far you get. It is also the way it is said, designed to make someone feel inferior.
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Rachael, Chieffie, Beanjar – yet more ignorant Guernsey people.
“Boy” was a derogative term used in the slave trade.
Suggest you go and buy “Roots” the dvd boxset give yourselves a much needed history lesson.
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This is interesting reading.
http://gawker.com/5631720/court-calling-black-man-boy-is-not-racial
US court of Appeals…….
2005: the US Court of Appeals orders a retrial. MONEY QUOTE: “The use of ‘boy’ when modified by a racial classification like ‘black’ or ‘white’ is evidence of discriminatory intent, [BUT] the use of ‘boy’ alone is not evidence of discrimination.”
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Well if the police Complaints find in favour of the Police officers, and that “Boy” is not classed as racist, then Advocate Peter Ferbrache should pay for the Police time he has wasted
at he’s usual fee of course.
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…there does seem to be a great swathe of ignorance amongst those posting here…the term ‘boy’ was used exclusively in South Africa and in the Southern States of America when addressing any black male, even if he were 99 years of age…it was a sneering derogatry term, a blatant racist term, and any Guernsey policeman using that style of language, when addressing a black man, is absolutely guilty of being racist.
The short sighted little brigade of posters who tried to argue Bernard Flouqet’s use of the word ‘golliwog’ was innocent and funny will no doubt wish to argue themselves blue in the face on this one.
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Any complaint from the motorist [allegedly] involved?
Or just a case of PF flying off on one for reasons best known to himself?
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Have a look at http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/11/racist_language and put this into context! Yet another stupid story that will be blown way out of proportion like the recent swastika incident. Will we be getting comments from President Obama condeming the island as a racist breeding ground!!
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Historically, in countries such as the U.S. and South Africa, “boy” was not only a ‘neutral’ term for domestics but also used as a disparaging racist insult towards men of colour (especially of African descent), recalling their subservient status even after the 20th century legal emancipation (from slavery, evolved to race segregation, viz. Apartheid) and alleged infantility, and many still consider it offensive in that context to this day since it denotes that men of colour (especially of African descent) are less than men or no better than an animal. For example a simple command for a dog would be, “Come here boy!”
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So to call someone boy has to be racist does it? Seeing as me and most people on here didn’t realise that boy was racist! People need to put things in context. If the officer was an 80 year old South African(given where some people say the term comes from) then maybe he meant it in a racist way!! It is also not for this advocate to patronise the man by making the complaint either as he can make it himself if he’s offended.
Maybe this advocate has a reason to have a grudge against the police and cause trouble…..
It seems boy was used to refer to a young man (not complinemtary and patronising but worse can happen) and if there was fuss everytime a policeman was a called a pig our prisons would be full. Maybe we should lock up every Jersey man that calls us donkeys!!
Ps I apologise if i have used a word at anypoint here that was derogatory to anyone in the 1700s. I also point out if this phrase was meant in a racist way they the complaint was quite right but we’ll never know.
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Vic Gamble…..get with the times, if it was offensive in the past fair enough but neither party involved may have known this used to be offensive (they may have done) and language is constantly evolving and to most people today they are not even aware this is racist. We are in the island of Guernsey and here this term is not neccessarily offensive and that should be the point of reference. We are in Europe so European meanings of words should apply.
Was it meant in a racist way…….well you’d never know!
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It is the manner that it is said that matters and we’ll never know what was implied. This may have been innocent. Either way it is not for the Advocate to get involved. What’s the motive?
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My son who is 34 got called boy by a policeman, he’s white.
I think the police are so racist towards white folk.
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I’m left wondering how a formal complaint made it on to the Press
I doubt that the Police Chief told them
I doubt that the Complaints Commission told them
I doubt that the coloured gentleman told them
Who does that leave?
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Don’t advocates normally help people get away with a crime haha just kidding!!!
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Sorry, but had to chuckle when advocate ferbrache describes the coloured gentleman as “lippy” Is that not just as bad as calling him “boy” ?
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Thehat – thank you for that link. I agree with it entirely. However, you have obviously not understood the link at all. It’s conclusion is that the use fo “boy” may or may not be racist, depending on other factors.
Advocate Ferbrache was there to assess those factors, you were not. He is in a position to decide whether it required a complaint to be made. You are not in a position to declare that the story is stupid. Frankly, I am willing to belive that he had good reason to make the complaint.
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People who are offended by these so-called racist terms – particularly when they are used innocently in parts of the world like Guernsey where the terms have no racial context – really have to get over the past, forgive and forget, and move on.
Nobody would bat an eyelid if they heard a policeman telling a drunk and disorderly Irishman to stop behaving like a “hooligan”, despite the word having a single plain meaning and a racist and derogatory derivation.
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AJP Taylor, you are disappointing me now. Here was I thinking you were a bone fide historian and it turns out your views were not formed in the cloisters at oxbridge but from second rate hollywood mini series.
Don’t be so free to insult people, you are on thin ice. The man was said to be ‘young’, not 40. And last time I looked we do not live in Alabama in the 1850′s. Context is everything. A young man can be described as a boy, whatever colour.
Any other day of the week Advocate Ferbrache would be laughing this ‘offence’ out of court if he was defending the case, today he is doing his best to get policemen sacked or disciplined. Not exactly a ‘Rodney King’ episode was it? Ridiculous, trivial and petty.
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Dear Guernsey residents,
Sometimes, this place totally disgusts me! As a resident non-local part time, sometime fly fisherman from Northumberland, I find this totally unbelievable, disgusting! If I hear one more local comment, “I’m not racist but…’ Oh please, my dear uneducated fellow! This is Guernsey… This is… Jinsy! Now if you’ll please let me get back to showing off my groomed little ferret to the neighbours that would be grand.
Good evening.
Major Godfrey
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1) Why has the motorist concerned not put in a complaint himself?
2) Why did Mr Ferbrache feel he was unable to say something at the time? – 60 is not necessarily old
3)Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the alleged incident, this seems to me like PF upping his profile ahead of announcing his intention to stand as a deputy in the election next year
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Vic and others who are so quick to put posters and these officers down.
There are things that each of us are ignorant of. Largely that is down to our age. Our interests also change over time. For example I loathed history at school and now find lots of periods fascinating, 20 years later in my 30s.
One area I’m not familiar with is “boy”. To me, I associate it more with Homer calling Bart “Boy”, although in the back of my mind I’m aware that slaveowners called slaves boy,but assumed that was due to their youth. SO is it possible that the officers are simply unaware of the intricacies of events 70+ years ago, and should they be held to account for that?
Also, Vic, I think Golliwog is a much more recent term and has a specific association with the little black guy on the jam jars. Boy has a lot more ambiguity about it.
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what worries me about this episode is that if the paper is accurate. Mr. Ferbrache thinks that the Guernsey police can do what they like. presumably he has known this for a long time after a career of practicing law here.
It would appear that the man in question was not young and given his ethnicity in this context the use of the word “boy” was racist.
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Pathetic and sad – I call my 17 year old son Boy in a compassionate manner. I read a blog recently and the person who happened to be black said and I quote “I got a parking ticket today but told the traffic warden he was being racist by giving me a ticket because I am black” he backed down apparently works most times in this bloggers case.
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Come on!! its just a name.
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Did the officer know that this could be considered a racist term? I certainly didn’t and looking at the comments above nor did alot of people. Surely he cant be guilty of racism for using an ordinary (if very patronising)word if he wasn’t aware of the racial overtones.
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bearing in mind that half the people on here (including myself) didn’t realise that ‘boy’ was a derogatroy term for a black person, is it that reasonable to believe that three polie officers will knowingly have used the term in a racist way?
and was it 3 officers ‘abusing’ him, or was it just the one who called him boy once? if it was the latter then i would be surprised if it was a racially motivated comment. the article above is not clear…
and can you even make complaints on behalf of other people? presumably the gentleman stopped didn’t make a complaint so surely he couldn’t have been that offended?
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This is reported very strangely. Surely it depends how the term boy was used. As I understand I the term boy could be termed racist following its use in the US relating to slavery (less so in UK culture) But the word has many other uses in the modern context. The article does not make clear the term was used to make its context racist rather than other use of language,
This article follows a strange run of journalism, following the publication of the flag incident (the one with then SS which is abhorrent) they published an Imperial german flag and made it look like a nazi one to the uninformed, then at the weekend in a unrelated article about punk they showed the local author wearing a swastika t shirt without passing comment.
Oh, Boy it is confusing…What’s going on?.
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Just sounds to me like the advocate is trying to drum up some business for himself, hoping the guy will step forward so he can arrange a fairly lucrative law suite
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I am a well educated person and have not come across this word used in a racist manner before, so what next, we can’t call someone Mr or Mrs?
I believe it was an innocent mistake and fair enough an apology be issued if it caused offence which clearly it has, though obviously unintentionally.
The people involved should spend their time trying to act on more important matters that effect the majority of islanders not one individual.
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Surely the correct salutation from a public servant to someone who pays their wages is “Sir”? Why was it not used in this case?
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Oh boy!, oops**##!.
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Ferbrache needs to keep his nose out of police business. Since when is calling a young man “Boy” a racist statement?
Find something real to bitch about Peter, I am sure there are some real issues you could get involved in.
As a footnote, go to East Anglia, everyone calls everyone boy there.
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..FROG..not really sure what the formulae of time versus racist abuse has to do with it…time does not diminish, or mitigate the ugly use of abusive terms.
BILLY THE FISH…allowing you the benefit of doubt, perhaps you were not aware of how the word ‘boy’ was employed…but ignorance of the fact is not really an excuse in itself..words like nigger, kaffir, wog must surely be within your radar, so how did you miss ‘boy’ ?
And what does it matter how recent the word golliwog is and how can you be so innocent as to believe it is purely a little symbol on a jam jar…if there is a night class course in Guernsey for “Recognising Racism” I suggest you enrol pronto…
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Hmmm, I have young kids and a term being bandied about was “boy better know” now I have no idea what that means but is it rascist aswell ?
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At work the other week a customer called me a litle f*** and a f*****.
I`ve just got on with life.
No advocates or anything.
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Calling a grown man a “boy” can be offensive and has been used as a derogative term for blacks, but like all things it depends on the context. If the police were using the term with the intent of it being derogatory or condescending towards the man then it is definitively offensive, however, if it were used in a playful slangy way and they usually say this to any grown man that they question then it is not. Whether it is racially offensive is based on the intention of the person using it…. and the witness and those involved is the best judge of that.
If the police pulled me over and started calling me “woman” over and over again in a derogatory tone then I would definitely regard that as sexist. Its all in the tone and context.
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vic gamble,well said sarnia expat well said
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@AJP taylor
Firstly I am NOT ignorant I passed all my exams thank you very much……… funnily enough my English literature with a B and we studied books on this and not once was a black man referred to as “boy” and I also studied history and again in none of the subjects that covered the slave trade was a black man referred to as boy… I respect that in this book called “roots” he may have been but it sounds like a minority. I think if the man in question was really that bothered about the remark he would have launched a complaint himself. I think he was (by the sound of the article) more bothered about being stopped on his way home from work and quite frankly if I knew I was stone cold sober I would have said the same thing!!! so Advocate Fairbrache I guess in your opinion if I stick up for myself I am what you call “lippy”
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As I reread this esteemed advocate’s description of the gentleman in question’s response to being breathalysed, was I the only one acutely aware that he himself should be more careful with his turn of phrase…?
Anywho. No one’s responsible for the Police, apparently, so like everything else they’re involved in, it’ll all just wash around in a sea of words and the occasional piece in the media, before disappearing into their copious filing cabinet forever.
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The comments on here are truly bizarre…What people should ask themselves is if you “didn’t know” it was racist/offensive does that in reality mean it isn’t?!
Whilst it’s true that the context is relevant, the person that took issue isn’t just some busy-body, politically correct passer-by, it’s an experienced advocate who (presumably) grew up at a time when that kind of language was acceptable. Surely that makes any concerns of his more credible or at least valuable enough to warrant complaint?
Notably, police are there to serve the public and in my experience have always referred to members of public as “sir” or “madam”. Calling a grown man ‘boy’ is disrespectful in any circumstance and (irrespective of skin colour)is still intended to lower someone as if to say “I’m the grown up, you’re the child”.
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My wife is Indian and had the temerity to admonish a young school aged lad who, on his scooter, ran the filter at the bottom of Fountain street and, but for her actions, would have slammed into the side of her car. As he collected himself from this potentially fatal accident he called her a Paki b*tch and sped off. Wrong species, wrong nationality and poor driving to boot…a fairly straightforward example of undeniable racism but where was super advocate then?
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Thanks AJP Taylor good to know there are people like you around who can explain these things and insult us at the same time. They do say ignorance is bliss and i think thats preferable to being rude like yourself.
Maybe people like myself have no problem with the word because we aren’t racist and rightly or wrongly dont associate it with racial abuse.Maybe someone with your superior intelligence finds this hard to believe but thats life.
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Reading some of the posts it seems Guernsey is quite sheltered from the derogatory/racist comments from history. Firstly calling someone ‘boy’ when they are a man in their thirties probably doesn’t happen all the time unless you’re a 75yr old retired public school teacher. I wouldn’t’ say it is common when getting pulled up by the police. Especially when the police were probably the same age or younger. I know I don’t take kindly to being called ‘girl’ especially in my professional capacity and corrected an employment judge when he referred to me as the ‘HR girl’. The term of boy/girl when referring to an adult is derogatory outside of social contexts. It means inexperienced, childlike etc. I would especially not expect a police officer to refer to someone as boy/girl unless they were clearly a child. In that situation sir/miss should always be used.
The term ‘boy’ from a white man to a black man has been a racist term for probably a few hundred years now. It very much depends how the term was being used in this situation as I wouldn’t say it was racist in this day and age on its own. However, the question of whether it is acceptable for police officers to be referring to people of the public as ‘boy’ when they are clearly adults is a reasonable one.
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Ok, Petrer Ferbrache (a lawyer who’s brethren make millions worldwide from cases like this) see’s a “racist” incident.
I think its perfectly plausible, I’ll be honest a lot of the comments above claiming ignorance about the word “boy” as a racist term, are bang on the money, I wasnt aware that if i accidentally labelled a black person as boy, I was commiting racism.
That said however, if it was “you causing trouble boi” i.e the word “boy” said in such a manner that its clearly racist, you dont need any degree in history to realise that “boi” is obviously racist.
This is impossible to judge, we werent there, did they just politely say “boy” or was it “boi” hmmm, no smoke without fire, but we have to remember the fire is being stoked by PF.
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I would imagine that the PC concerned mistakenly believed the gentleman’s name to be’Roy’and this was all sorted out to the gentleman’s satisfaction once the elderly complainant moved out of earshot, otherwise surely one of the other PC’s present would have reported the matter to his superiors
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This all boils down to the fact as to whether or not the officer in question was aware that calling a black gentleman ‘boy’ was widely used as a racial put down or slur. If not, the officer still should have said ‘sir’ however, he didn’t so he is guilty of patronising a member of the public.
I consider myself to be quite well read and was unaware that saying ‘boy’ could be used in a derogatory racial manner
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Chieffie, I’ve just read your post but I hope you realise that if you’ve studied something at GCSE or A Levels it only gives you a brief-overview and summary of a particular historical event. The word ‘boy’ has been widely documented in historical documents in a derogatory racist context. Once you’ve studied English Literature or American History at degree/masters level and above then I will guarantee you will come across the term ‘boy’ in the derogatory context it’s being discussed as here when viewing historical documents (note, not summarised books). This is not a work of fiction that one writer/tv producer decided to make up and put in a show.
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Vic Gamble, get real. Racism is not in the word but the context and intent. This is why in some cultures words we view as racist are terms of affection. For instance the n word.
If i call a friend pasty or whitey am i being racist or just having a laugh
why do people always think the worst.
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VG I’m guessing you are of an age where slavery was around but the odds are the police officers weren’t so I’d give them the benefit of the doubt
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“Boy” is not a racist term so stop frothing at the mouth with your wishy washy nonsense. Its not as if they called him a gollywog, that pleasure is reserved for our most senior politicians.
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David Haslam – As a solicitor myself, the view that lawyers make “millions” from cases like this is simply false. Outside the U.S at the very least. Given that he complained to the police, I think that the insinuation he had anything to gain financially is unfair.
To yourself and Damo – even if you feel it’s acceptable for the general public not to be aware of what may be constituted ‘racist’, shouldn’t this be something the police know better? They are heavily trained in cultural ‘sensitivity’ after all..?
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The ‘boy’ involved is 40 years of age, THAT is why he found it offensive and also in the manner which this certain policeman approached him and dealt with the situation, THAT is why passers by were shocked, not that there was any direct racism involced. A copper calling somebody boy no matter how old they are to a male is offensive, it’s speaking out of term, trying to prevoke a reaction which is what this particular copper was trying to do!
You lot are something else! Love-a-gossip Guernsey peepz! jeeeez…
Vic Gamble – good post by the way.
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…dan le p…of course I am of an age when slavery IS around…it still exists…just like ageism,as openly shown by an attack such as yours.
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Wasn’t the good advocate a boy himself once?
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US black origin rapper called soldier boy. Nuff said.
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Have to agree with Pyer and wonder whether PF is using this incident to help raise his profile for next years elections – if the cardriver concerned had been a black woman would he have been so concerned if the policeman had called her girl?
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Lynnie – I completely agree with you.
The point here is that there are many occasions where the police feel they can speak to members of the public just how they like. Senior officers need to instill in their staff that they cannot do this.
Last year I was stopped as part of a normal roadside check. I have no problem with that but the officer was clearly goading me so he had something to take further.
No point in complaining as who would be believed in a my word against his situation.
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Vinny
I was under the impression that the US was part of “worldwide”?
Maybe PF had a massive attack of community spirit, or maybe he’s planting seeds ……. who knows.
Your point regarding the general publics knowledge of racist slurs. I do feel its acceptible that we dont klnow every single racist phrase. Afterall, if we were taught what is and isnt considered racism, there would be someone (probably a lawyer) claiming we are just training racists by letting them know what constitutes a good insult…
However assuming you are happy to teach children every potentially racist phrase from every culture so that we dont get a misunderstanding, you’ll excuse me if I send my children to a different school where simple tolerance and the message that we are all equal is taught rather than a list of what can and cant be said.
Yes the police should know better, racial sensitivity should be an integral part of police training, and it wouldnt suprise me given the xenophobic nature of some Guerns if this gentleman was subjected to racist treatment. But like I said above, we werent there, we dont know exactly what was being said and the tone in which it was used, and frankly until the guy himself complains (maybe there is a case brewing), we cannot judge.
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I love the way that the armchair experts are coming out in force.
The simple fact is this – the use of “boy” might have been racist, or it might not. It depends on the subtle combination of other factors, none of which can be assessed via thisisguernsey.
Only the police, Advocate Ferbrache and the motorist can answer the question of whether it was racist. I have every confidence that PF felt that he had good reason to complain. I also have almost as much confidence that the police will look into the matter properly.
Anything else that anyone says on here is frankly irrelevant.
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Has the gentleman concerned complained to the police?
If not this is just a waste of everyone’s time
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I’m actually quite stunned at the level of ignorance on display here. I will politely assume that anyone not familiar with the use of the term “boy” as a derogatory reference for a coloured person is below the age of twenty-five. Youth is the only excuse (other than lack of a real education) in explaining the apparent unfamiliarity with the term. I would strongly suggest to these people that they actually think before they post comments on topics about which they clearly have zero knowledge.
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I’m loving the irony of Terry calling everyone else armchair experts.
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Dave, I think that letting people know what is or isn’t offensive (be it racist or otherwise) is our responsibility to each other so we can live on an island where everyone is happy.
To suggest that knowledge of an offensive term is “training” someone to be offensive doesn’t make sense. I presume everyone knows (or is ‘taught’) the ‘N’ word is offensive but they don’t choose to use it along with many others on a daily basis.
I’m not suggesting we “teach” everything that could be considered offensive/racist, merely highlighting that ignorance of it being offensive doesn’t make it any less so.
It’s acceptable to not know certain things are offensive, but we should be a lot more understanding and a lot less defensive.
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Isn’t ironic that all these people protesting at how racist Guernsey is and what a terrible phrase this is are actually complaining that not enough people know out of date racist phrases!!!
I am very well educated top achiever under 30 and am pretty pleased that I am deemed to be uneducated for having been spared a education that felt it more important to highlight underlying issues etc rather than slang terms which will be carried on through spread of knowledge.
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I suspect that most decent coppers would also be appalled at one of their own using the term ‘boy’ in this context. And if the policeman concerned did not realise the message it conveys then he really is in need of a little time away from the island. Or was he hoping to be called ‘boss’ in return….?
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Irony – No. It isn’t ironic, suggest you look up the definition.
Obviously not that well educated!
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I quote the source of all knowledge wikipedia for situational Irony or an ironic situation ”actions taken have an effect exactly opposite from what was intended”
So if the above is true (and isn’t everything on wikipedia) people complaining of the use of a word (as it is racist) actually makes it more likely to be used in a racist manner. :o)
For another example of Irony read Cousin Vinny’s post!!!!!!!
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How can the word `boy` be a racist comment? —-and this made the front page of the Press ?? because of who made the `complaint`?
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a “top achiever” that uses Wikipedia to make a point, good one!
Good logic though – racists are created by complaints on This Is Guernsey…
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talking of irony….
Robbo, before lecturing other’s on their ignorance, perhaps you should update your apparently extensive knowledge of what is pc and what isn’t.
The term ‘colored person’ became generally unacceptable in the 70′s, my well educated friend, it’s now ‘Black’ (upper or lower case ‘b’), ‘person of colour’, or, if in the States, ‘African American’.
Corr damme, those who think they know everything are such an irritation to those of us that do, ay…?;)
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Hello: “Or was he hoping to be called ‘boss’ in return….?”
Supposing that had happened, wouldn’t the black man be making a racist comment? Pretty serious that, implying that the policeman is involved in slavery. No doubt you would be writing to the press furiously, perhaps starting a legal fund so Advocate Ferbrache could prosecute for slander? Yeah, right.
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Irony – So by your logic, from a couple of years ago, everyone suddenly started to call black people gollywogs? Don’t be ridiculous.
P.s. anyone who has to put in their posts that they’re “a top achiever” is asking to be ridiculed!
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The U.S. Supreme Court “ruled on an appeal that the use of the word ‘boy’ on its own is not enough evidence of racial animus, but that the word is also not benign.” That means the court is willing to consider the context in which “boy” is used to determine if it’s being uttered as a racial epithet.
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Eddie – I suggest you read the comments as some of them answer your question.
In summary – the word is not racist per se, but can be racist if used in a particular manner.
And yes, it made the front page because no matter what you think of him, Peter Ferbrache is not the kind of man to be complaining about policemen being racist unless he had good reason to think that they were.
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Steve-O – I am glad to have raised a smile!
I do have a tendency to point out when other people are talking nonsense or are talking about stuff that they clearly have no knowledge of, but I hope that I only give an opinion on things that I have real knowledge of. Like this story, where my point is that none of the posters here (including me) are in a position to decide whether it was racism or not, so it is stupid to try to persuade anyone that it was or wasn’t.
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@Robbo – Unlike you, I am not stunned by the appalling lack of intelligence on this thread. I am staggered by the lack of general knowledge demonstrated by those who have assumed that they are well educated.
The term ‘Boy’ was used widely in the Southern States of America, prior to and post the American Civil War, it was used in a derogatory manner to address male slaves by their ‘masters’, and was still being used in the era of Martin Luther King.
During the World Wars, 1914-1918 and, 1939-1944, the term ‘Boy’ became a popular first name, possibly due to the pre WW1 influx of Americans, rich young women buying into marriages with titles and the British dislike of that Americanism, naming children after their fathers – 2nd, 3rd, etc. This is probably why some of our older generation address each other and, younger generations as ‘old Boy’.
In some parts of East Anglia, mostly Norwich and Suffolk, the term ‘Boy’ is used as an affectionate greeting, just as ‘my lover’ is considered to be friendly in the West Country.
I am frequently called ‘my love’, no problem with that, it is again a friendly term.
Recently, I cooked a traditional supper for several of our good friends; when we got to a Beanjar ‘course’, a very well known local and respected member of our community said, ‘Let’s see what the ‘Girl —-’ has to offer. Should I be up in arms at the term ‘Girl’ – I don’t think so.
PF’s motives remain his own.
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Vic
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt (and that’s not being sarcastic this time – hard to type sincerity sometimes!).
Actually, have never heard kaffir, only heard wog cos my dad was a “fan” of alf garnett, and wog is the only term I remember. I know nigger, but to be totally honest it’s because of my fan of gansta rap!
But I would have thought all three terms are far less ambiguous than “boy” for the reasons I’ve stated – principally the Simpsons – “Come here, boy” is just a way of talking to your son!
To be frank, being born in the 70s, I’ve grown in a world where colour is not an issue. As such I’ve no need to attend any courses on rasicm or terms as I don’t intend to use any of them anyway.
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Advocate Ferbrache’s comments in the GP raise general concerns about the Guernsey Police and the accountability of officers. The Press article quotes this experienced lawyer as saying that the Police in this island can basically do what they want to and the Law Courts will not intervene. Such comments are extremely significant because they raise the question, can we have proper confidence in the island’s police force in these circumstances? On the issue of the “boy” comments, I don’t think that we have heard half of the facts so it’s difficult to form a real view.
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Yes well, no one complained when the black community on this island had a party up at At well known beach cafe in the North of the island and the sign outside said ‘blacks only’ for one moment I thought it a joke until I saw that the door was manned and I was most certainly not welcome, this was several years ago well about three to be exact.
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This story on the front page of Monday’s Press is made all the more farcical by the front page of Tuesday’s Press having the word “Goon” emblazoned across it – a word with derogatory origins, no less, for a simpleton or someone lacking in intelligence which still has negative connotations to this day.
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All down to tone and context…seemples
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I was expecting a more serious racial slur but “Boy” that is political correctness gone mad if that is all that was said…. hahahaa
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Next time the Cobo car park needs clearing up are we going to call in the Guernsey African-Americans ?
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Cousin Vinny…read my post again, do you think i was maybe using an element of humour in the wikipedia quote and its description. Just putting it out there :)
Actually i do believe ‘boy’ is now more likely to be used in a racist context seeing as it appears 80% of people didn’t know of it in this context. It won’t make someone racist but is now more likely to be used…fact.
I apologise for trying to illustrate my point that you can be well educated and not know this word was racist. I’d appreciate if you’d stick to the very serious subject Jay rather than nit picking. I would suggest that if that is what you took from the post you should visit another forum(i won’t stoop to suggetsing a topic)
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St Marcouf – you sir, are a Goon
There, I called you a Goon based on your postings on this subject. I am being rude about your individual inability to understand a simple concept. It is a judgement that I have made about you, as a person, based on the evidence before me.
I have not called you a name which is inextricably linked to a feature that you have no control over – your race, your sexual orientation or your disability – and which is based on prejudice in relation to other persons who happen to share that same feature but with whom you have no other connection.
If you cannot see the distinction then my judgement is spot on.
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Advocate Ferbrache hears a police officer calling a black motorist boy, boy is a racist term in some places in the world.
Action, Advocate Ferbrache takes policemans number, then takes the number of the motorists car. Records time and place, makes an official complaint through the propper channels.
If disatified with the outcome of his complaint, then goes public.
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If he had called him ‘girl’ I may understand…
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The police in guernsey are a joke,same as the finance regulators,accountable to no one.
RIP Sarnia
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perhaps the officer was being agist, sexist and racist.
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Ispent some time working in wales and everyone called me boy,i am 45.But in this case unless the policeman was welsh,i think he was being very naughty….p s go guernsey fc….
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The “lad” must consider himself lucky…..One officer has been known to unlawfully arrest people and a former officer was thrown out for kissing !! Lucky escape I think :-).
On a seperate note i think PF was right to put this issue in the public domain.
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@AJP Taylor: I am surprised at you – please note that ‘Roots’ is a complete work of fiction. Whilst it is considered generally representative of the kind of events that went on during the slave trade era it remains, in itself, non-factual.
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PF obviously suffers from white mans crime.
Its pretty sad when a black man is not bothered, but yet a white man is!
If I call my best friend “Nigger” is that racist? This isn’t so black and white.
(what a pun!)
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PB Falla:
Surely the point of this whole thing is that the police are accountable – being investigated by Spivey is the start of it and the press coverage also provides accountability. So your point is?…
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Hang on…. isn’t there an election coming up soon? No such thing as bad publicity, eh PF?!
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Irony, read my first point. 3 years ago, people didn’t think gollywog was offensive, it being highlighted as offensive hasn’t resulted in a sudden spike in people deciding to use it. FACT.
Last I checked, being “well educated” doesn’t always translate into having common sense or tact i.e. Boris Johnson and Prince Phillip. I hardly think some of the things they have come out with (which is embarrassing and accepted by the majority of us to be offensive) can be defended by their respective educations! Either way, it’s hardly a defence,
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Me
You’re clutching at straws aren’t you … asking peabrain Falla what the point of ANY of his posts is
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Our Island has gone PC (unintended pun)mad. We use words such as, Crapaux; plonker;Shorty;,Curly; Lofty; Big boy,and many similar, almost daily, but, all in (at least I do) an affectionate way.If someone has been offended then surely an apology is all that is required,then move on. “I rest my case”.
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@ Sanquine
The black man was bothered – he politely asked not to be called ‘boy’.
Regarding ‘nigger’: yes, context is all, as with all words. But previous posts here have suggested that because ‘boy’ can be used inoffensively it means it is not offensive, or racist. That is quite perverse.
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Police officers are trained to use tact and diplomacy in their dealings with the public. If they follow their training they should address a 40 year-old man as ‘Sir’. To address them as ‘Boy’ is sarcastic and demeaning, irrespective of race. There is absolutely no reason why a police officer would use such a term unless he or she meant it to be derogatory and acting in such a manner is likely to inflame whatever situation the officer is supposed to be dealing with. It will prove impossible to determine whether or not the officer’s comment was racially motivated, but they should be taken to task for their error of judgement which in different circumstances could be described as behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace.
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Billy the fish.
PF is not standing in next years elections. He has stated that publicly. He will stand in 2016.
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Jay….I must say i like your use of the word FACT. I’ve heard the G word alot over the last few years, was it due to press coverage who knows but not sure how you can claim this as fact either way. All i know is that press coverage won’t have made less people know it is a racist term (now that is a FACT)
I also did not suggest being well educated means you have common sense merely that if most people should be aware of a historically racist term then i would have thought I may have heard it (as people on here have suggested people are poorly educated for not knowing the term ‘boy’).
Jay i do not ask that you agree with me just you put together a reasoned arguement against the points i make rather than the point you wish i’d made for your to try and argue.
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Terry Langlois
As a simpleton I have no control over my lack of intellect and I share that lack of intellect in common with other simpletons and people who are mentally disabled. Your labelling of me as a goon, based on the evidence before you of my lack of intellect, was intentionally derogatory and demonstrates a prejudice you have against simpletons like me. Alternatively, it was meant lightheartedly, but the negative connotations remain and the label caused me offence.
However, you are saying that it is quite acceptable to call me a goon in these circumstances, yet in precisely the same circumstances as they relate to a black man (switch simpleton, intellect and goon for black man, black skin and boy) you are saying it is unacceptable, even when the label wasn’t meant derogatorily and even when no offence was taken.
Your explanation was PC indoctrination at its contrived and contradictory worst.
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Sensible, what a sensible post.
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Shadow
Nice to see your still following my high calibre posts.
Now thats a FACT
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Historically,many menial jobs were filled by youngsters aged 10-14. It’s in our language–messenger-boy,pot-boy,stable-boy, paper-boy tea-boy and so on.The female equivalent has not yet been politicised, so we still have housemaids, milkmaids and barmaids. After the American civil war many of these very low paid jobs were filled in the US by “African Americans” (who were at that time quite happy to be called Coloureds or Negroes. The expression “bell-boy” and “bus-boy” only became regarded as “insults” after the 1960s.
Likewise in South Africa, the word “maid” and “girl” are interchangeable in Afrikaans and refer to the occupation. The word “boy” has been used for servants (houseboy, gardenboy) throughout the world as traditionally many roles were in fact filled by youngsters. In fact, at the Imperial Hotel in Tokyo and the Marriott in Cairo the porters still announce themselves as “Boy,here!” and, if you have enough money, throughout SE Asia one would employ a houseboy.
Since some Americans informed Black South Africans that they were being insulted maids have become domestics and gardenboys, gardeners–but in Malawi,Kenya,Botswana, Tanzania and Namibia they are still boys and girls with no hard feelings.
Adopting other country’s imagined insults can make one look very stupid. The descendents of the Khoisan and mixed race people in Cape Town exult in the title of “Coloured” (call them Black and get a punch in the nose)and for 150 years put on a New Year “Coon Carnival” dolled up in “Negro Minstrel” garb–then two years ago they were told it was racist.
“Kaffir” may be a racist insult in Durban, but is meaningless in Dar Es Salaam except as a religious category. A Chinese company quite innocently exported leather products in “Nigger Brown”.”Darkie” brand toothpaste and the Golliwog Nightclub existed in the East for years before some PC twerp kicked up a stink.
We will agree that the term “Boy” has been exploited by American racists of all colours, but I assumed that Guernsey was not in the Deep South, nor is Norfolk, home of the 1960s hit song “Hev Yew Gotta Loight, Boy?
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Excellent post, Old Colonial.
My own personal gripe is that should a white person use the ‘N’ word (I dare not even speak its name!) he would be vilified. When the same word (but spelt ‘nigga’) is spat out repeatedly by a gangsta rapper, along with various sexist and drug references plus a ‘pop a cap in yo ass’ he usually gets a gold disc. My understanding is that the word comes from the latin ‘niger’ literally meaning the colour black. Perversely, the word ‘black’ in English is currently deemed OK. Preferable to words previously considered polite, such as ‘coloured’ which was not seen as perjorative in the UK. People of other races and natioanalities usually have words for white Europeans that might not be totally complimentary. Are we supposed to give two hoots about that, or is it PC protocol to just ignore it?
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Old Colonial / Beanjar – I thought that we had already established that it is not the exact words which matter but the meaning given to them when spoken. If the policeman was being racist (even subconsciously) then the use of the term was racist. If not, then he was just being rude.
Nigger is a good example – I would suggest that there is simply no reason for a white person to use that term unless it is being used in a racist way, or unless they are speaking to friends who accept the use of that term in relation to them. Its use in any other way must surely be racist. It is possible for black people talking to other black people to use the term without being racist, because how can it be racism? I don’t see a problem with that distinction.
And as for terms relating to white people – racism does not include every reference to race. It involves references to race in a demeaning, prejudiced manner where there is a real risk of prejudice, social exclusion, expolitation, etc. It is a fact of history that for the most part white people have sought to impose themselve over people of other races. There are very few examples of the reverse. That is why demeaning references to white people cannot generally be considered to be racist, as there is no power behind them, they are just insults. It is usually no different than making rude references about “toffs” of blonds. If there is a circumstance when whites are genuinely excluded or demeaned, then it is racism – ie if the MOBO awards excluded white rappers. But as there is not the same force of power, history, pain and social disadvantage that is associated with other racism, those circumstances must be very limited.
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pb falla, please note that “you’re” (ie “you are”) and “your” have completely different meanings and you are confusing them.
Another grammar shambles.
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Beanjar, not that I want this to go off-piste, but I think the problem people have with “coloured” would be that why are black people coloured and not white people?
In reality we’re all ‘coloured’ so you’re either black, white, brown etc?
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I think I’m getting it now, Terry Langlois, so basically all caucasians are presumed to be latent racists because of past history whereas whatever black people say is deemed inoffensive? Right, thanks a lot.
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Leaving aside the is it/isn’t it racist argument I found it amusing the read PFs comment that it he believed that the complaint would be effectively swept under the carpet. He’s obviously forgotten that there is now an INDEPENDENT Police complaints panel who will no doubt come to their own conclusions. I can hear the nay sayers already saying it’s not independent cos this is Guernsey but it’s more impartial than it was before.
I hope the findings are made as public as PFs third party complaint.
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Technically neither black or white are colours, they are negatives.
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Regardless of what has been said here in the way of personal opinion or fact, let me give a little advice to anyone travelling to the USA.
No matter how you might mean to use the word, NEVER say “boy” to a black man unless you are prepared to meet your maker! It will ALWAYS cause offense.
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limpit
Multumesc
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I thought racism was burning houses down and wearing white hoods, they call me boy down the Rocky Oih Fatboy, doesn’t infer I is Black bro’.
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@Terry Langlois
If you think that epithets used against White people are not real insults then I suggest that you learn a little bit of Cantonese, a language that has so many inventive obscenties that its filthiness is almost an art form. Most Europeans are not offended by the term Gwai Loh (translated as either Ghost chap or filthy, stinking, hairy, smelly, white, foreign barbarian devil, depending on the source). Nor in the Nguni language bloc do they get annoyed at Umlungu, which means more or less the same. A popular Hindi word for White people often involves a description of incest and even the polite Japanese have a graphic description of Western personal hygiene.
Maybe because most English-speaking Whites can’t be bothered to learn other languages or because we can take a joke we will happily call ourselves Goras, Poms, Gai-jins, Limeys, Rosbifs, Insalaffe etc. and not get upset in the slightest way, unlike the Septics, Frogs, Dagoes, Wops, Fuzzy-Wuzzies, Bubbles, Camel-Jockeys,Porras,Krauts, Cheeseheads,Houtkops, Nips, Spics and other sensitive types.
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Old Colonial – I did not say that they were not real insults, I am quite sure that they are. My point was that they are JUST insults.
Racial insults against minorities have extra force because they are part of the means by which certain races have been (or continue to be) oppressed and disadvantaged. Their use betrays a continuation of that mentality. That is why they need to be avoided, not merely because they are insulting.
Anyway, I suspect that this discussion is going nowhere further…
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So, Old Colonial, what you are saying is that if everyone was racist then there would be no racism?
It’s alright to call a black person a golliwog because you know that the Chinese or Indians have a word for a white man (incidentally, do you not think it has some colonial resonance?).
That argument is facile apology for those wanting to perpetuate hatred.
Of course white folk get racially abused, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
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Another excellent post old Colonial.
Whilst I agree with the general sentiment of not causing grave offence to people of other races and creeds I am sick to death of the absurd breast beating some Brits indulge in. Mild xenophobia and gentle ribbing of other cultures is carried out in all parts of the World and always has been. That has nothing do do with racial hatred and might even go some way to defusing it. So what if the French eat frogs and Scots wear kilts? Nobody ever died from an Irish joke and there is some truth to most national stereotypes.
Trust Britain to indulge a humourless minority to develop a moneyspinning PC training industry which harasses us with this never ending witch hunt. Often it leaves supposed targets of this ‘racism’ totally bewildered as the zealots change ‘Christmas’ to ‘Winterval’ or forbid the flying of national flags for fear of causing ‘exclusion’. Am I supposed to be offended when others celebrate Diwali, Passover or Eid?
Britain is one of the most tolerant and cosmoplolitan countries on earth but you’d never believe it when a vociferous minority cry ‘racism’ at every half-opportunity. For God’s sake let us not go down the same pathetic path the UK has – ‘boy’ may not be the best form of address but is is no way racist.
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Boy, is not wideley known these days a being a racist comment! I didnt know myself, and Im sure I have called many of my relatives (whom are black) boy in the past!
If it is not known as being racist and not intended as a racist comment I really don’t see what the problem is.
Was the man himself insulted or bothered, no! Only PF seemed bothered by this. If anything it was an insult calling a 40 year old man a boy, but he didnt even make a complaint about that himself. I think this has all been blown out of proportion and the was no racist meaning to the situation at all.
PF might want to stop feeling so paranoid and guilty about what Whites did in the past and trying to hard to make up for it! What does that show about the way he thinks around black people, would he have jumped to the same conclusion had it been a chinese man, indian man or any other race?! He needs to relax a bit and be more comfortable about using normal words!
It may have been used in the past as a racist insult in the US, but that was years ago now. Most of the general public wouldnt consider that to be the slightest bit racist these days!
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I think its outrageous that an advocate of such long standing should refer to someone as ‘lippy’ obviously referring to the racial stereotypes of black men having big lips.
How dare he!
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Poor Peter Ferbrache is showing he is getting out of touch with Island events. Wrong target, wrong ammunition etc.
What he fails to realise is that IF the cop concerned is local he is a product of Guernsey society, not just the local police force.
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PF – Been on Court Row for a very long time, risen through the ranks etc etc – there will be a reason for doing what he has done
Sensible – Seems to have a fair grasp on the story.
As for the meaning of words – I worked in a garage where one of the Managers always called me “Missy” – my first job, 15yrs old, I hated it and it was “offensive” to me at the time but…..quickly understood that he was a very decent man it was “just his way”.
Not the same as racist comments of course but only those immediately involved can really know and hopefully, sensibly resolve a delicate situation.
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“Was the man himself insulted or bothered, no! Only PF seemed bothered by this.”
This reminds me of a great scene in “The Office”.
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congratulations the nurse says to the happy couple who have just had there child its a BOY ahhh no says the father is he black
sorry but since when did boy also mean black
what next we wont be able to fly the british flag guernsey dont get like the uk there politically mental
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…what a totally unintelligent post Craig…you couldn’t make it up…but you did. A few commas and full stops would have helped the issue of reading it, but then what the heck, it’s just you being silly for the amusement of the rest of us.
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Interesting that Craig should refer to the British flag. Guessing that he means the Union flag, I wonder if that is a common misconception, and the reason why so many people fly it in Guernsey.
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CreoleG has a point. Although Vic and others are completely correct in the historically racist use of the word “boy”, it is interesting that so often it is over-sensitive white people who are more offended by the use of words than the supposedly “offended” party. It’s like the idea of Christmas offending Muslims. Most British Muslims are absolutely fine with it – it’s usually only over-sensitive white people and hardcore sharia-obsessed extremists who have the problem.
In my view the only real judge of what is offensive are the “offended party” themselves. Rather than making ever increasing lists of “taboo” words and then telling people what should offend them, let’s ask our minority community and this gentleman in particular what actually does offend them – and in this case whether he felt racially offended by the officers.
I can’t help but think that the more hyper-sensitive we come to what we say, the more we actually fuel racial tension. People become so anxious whenever they are in the company of people from a different race that they begin avoiding them for fear of “offending” them. This is far more detrimental to race relations than the occasional slip of the tongue.
Besides, racism and prejudice is general is often far more subtle. You don’t have to call a black man “boy” or “nigger” to his face make it abundantly clear he’s not welcome or you’re not happy with him breathing your air. Ignoring them when the party invites go out or not inviting them round your house for dinner can be signs of an underlying prejudice.
Rather than making mountains out of one word that may/may not have been racially motivated, let’s each examine ourselves and ask how welcoming we really are to those of a different race / nationality.
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Well said Paul Le Page.
That is exaclty how I feel and what wanted to try and get across!
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If pf had a b in between his initials then he would be worth listening to.
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Are the Police not required to address people as “sir” any more? If not then they can’t be surprised when their lack of respect is returned in spades (no pun intended).
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Wow!…this article has generated lots of differing opinions…….for the Police to call a 30-year old man “boy” is extremely insulting, irrespective of colour or race. In my view, Advocate Ferbrache should be congratulated for raising this matter with the Chief Officer, on behalf of the general public (taxpayer)..
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@ Phil ‘Are the poice not required to address people as Sir anymore’
They never have been. It may be polite but there are times and places that it simply will not work. Would you call a Rapist or Peadophile ‘Sir’. I don’t think I could. It all comes down to circumstances and, as we don’t know the back ground to this alleged comment I don’t think we can judge whether what was actually said was politically incorrect.
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Well, I’m a man over 30 and I wouldn’t find it ‘extremely insulting’, just a bit sloppy and unprofessional. If it was accompanied by a truncheon prod to the danglers, however, that would be another thing entirely. Before howling for people’s careers to be damaged, how about some sense of proportion?
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Beanjar
Your big dangling earrings might be just the thing to set a PC off on one
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Donkey Doo
Stopping someone in the street is a bit different from dealing with rapists and paedophiles, as in “would you mind getting out of the car sir?” or “are you aware you have a defective brake light sir”. If today’s police go around calling people “boy” when that person is clearly a man, then they shouldn’t be surprised if they get called plod, rozzers, bacon, pigs, filth etc, come to think of it I have heard one of Advocate Ferbrache’s senior colleagues use many of those terms in a fairly public setting.
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DONKEY DOO…reference rapist, or peadophile…would that be before they were found guilty, or afterwards?
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