Does child have to be hurt for crossing to change? asks head
Tuesday 20th September 2011, 1:00PM BST.
Forest Primary school head teacher Gary Le Huray has renewed calls for something to be done to make the zebra crossing outside the school safer for pupils. (Picture by Adrian Miller, 1180732)
A CHILD being injured in accident could be the only way to force the Environment Department to change the zebra crossing outside Forest Primary School, according to its head teacher.
Gary Le Huray said a small number of drivers refused to stop at the crossing, warning that it was only a matter of time before one of the pupils was hurt.
‘It is a horrible argument to say that an accident may be the only way that changes would be made,’ he said. ‘I fear for the safety of the children.
‘If everybody respected children on the road there wouldn’t be the problem.’
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I presume Mr Le Huray is a special constable,able to write down the offending reg plates and give Court evidence if required,or is he just in it for the hi-viz jacket?
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I am clearly out of touch with current traffic laws, because I thought that “refusing to stop” at a pedestrian crossing was an offence, especially if witnessed by the caretaker, a special constable.
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Here we go again. People constantly moaning about this section of road. Why don’t they build a pedestrian bridge over the road? It wouldn’t be that unsightly as its already a built up area. If it was a ramped bridge then it would be push chair/wheelchair friendly. Its a better alternative to waiting until an accident happens. Its annoying and unfortunate that some drivers don’t stop for the crossing but you can’t have police there 24 hours a day. Maybe it isn’t entirely the drivers fault as that part of the road is quite crowded, with lots of road furniture and busy entrances/exits that require your attention. I have no problem with it myself but its not the best place for a pedestrian crossing.
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Regardless of the comments above, Mr Le Huray is right that somebody is going to get hurt on the crossing.
I regularly see people drive over the crossing when they should stop. A couple of weeks ago a mother in a large 4×4 exited Forest school in front of me and drove straight through the crossing when the caretaker was standing in the middle of it!
Something badly needs to be done, yet Environment seemingly refuse to face up to the issue. Bizarre when you look at the extreme measures in place at the new school in St. Sampsons.
Unfortunately Deputy Sirett seems to believe that his role as an elected representative is to represent his own views rather than those of the people who put him in office. He certainly won’t be getting my vote this time around.
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Put a red light camera there anyone who runs a red light 3 points and £100 fine sorted!
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I don’t really believe the traffic is “refusing to stop”… If they were then the same would be seen at every crossing but it is not.. So there must be just something about this crossing that makes it difficult to see. Its a dangerous crossing and its hard to pin point the exact cause, whether it be the slight bend that its on, or the amount of visual noise around the area (the co-op) or that its a main road and people are a bit too relaxed, or a combination of factors i can’t say. I drive past that crossing a lot, Ive seen many cars drive past and then have a obvious shock moment when they realised what they had done…. I always slow down around that area in preparation -but only because I know that the crossing is there and to watch out for it.
Its clear that the school needs something more to allow the children to cross safely – perhaps a larger set of flashing lights or a traffic light crossing or a traffic person to help children cross the road for 30mins before school and 30mins after school. In the short term police should park there for a few days a week and book people who aren’t paying attention- at least then they can question those people to figure out why it is they failed to stop in the first place.
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Or even a pedestrian tunnel under the road could be an option. Not unsightly like a bridge. They work well enough in plenty of other places. They could be locked at night for safety reasons (crossing this road at night is not the issue).
It would be advisable to sort this issue sooner rather than later as we will have lorries thundering along this road soon to or from the airport.
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As I have said on a previous post, this traffic is due to increase by 150 PER CENT over the next couple of years (if the Airport project is to run as planned), yet after 12 YEARS of asking, the Parish are STILL being refused traffic calming measures, and there appears to be ‘wait ’til something happens’ approach…
…so presumably, the Parish will be allowed to implement something when a child is actually run over (!)
The Head of Environment, also the Forest’s own Deputy, was sadly unavailable for our recent meeting, so no one was able to ask him why this ludicrous situation has been allowed to drag on for so long.
We can only hope he won’t have prioritised something else or be too busy for the next meeting, where this and other contentious elements of the Airport plans will be discussed, and that he’s looking forward to it as much as we all are.
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They don’t stop at crossings in foreign countries either and then they have the nerve to shout at YOU!
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Its got no business being called “traffic calming”, when all it does is cause irritation for motorists. Put a pedestrian tunnel or bridge there for god sake and then you take the road out of the equation, giving the pedestrians complete safety and leaving the traffic to flow freely.
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Place a series of well marked speed bumps either side of the crossing !
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Saphire
Don’t assume that all marked crossings overseas give the pedestrian the right of way – many in France for instance do not require the motorist to stop for a pedestrian
No wonder you got shouted at – you are lucky you are not writing your post from a hospital bed!
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We could install one of Guernsey’s famous ‘courtesy crossings’… the ones where at least eight out of ten motorists give way to pedestrians
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@ForestFlo
Can you clarify the basis of your statement “this traffic is due to increase BY 150 PER CENT over the next couple of years” (your caps, not mine)? The information I have seen published refers only to an increase in HGV movements, not traffic overall, as you suggest, and the 150% was a peak increase at the least busy section of the route, not past Forest School.
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This is not only a problem at Forest school but every school in the island.
I picked up my grandson from Vale infants school, and went to walk home down La Mazotte, we went to cross on the crossing, yes the crossing , lo and behold a huge people carrier parked right up to the crossing so we could not see behind the vehicle to cross, if a car had been coming from the right it would have had to overtake and probably hit the child coming up La Mazotte to cross, because children have got that habit of thinking oh crossing, all clear.A motorist cannot see that child/person, it is a blind crossing. It is an accident waiting to happen and a pretty nasty one at that, apparently parents have been told but take no notice.
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As a driver a lot of the problem on this particular crossing is in the way it is ‘controlled’ by the special constable. He seems intent on causing as much disruption to the traffic flow as possible.
Pedestrians never have to wait to cross he jumps out in the road and he stops the traffic no matter what, before the child/parent is anywhere near the crossing. If there are other pedestrians behind then he makes the traffic wait for them to come and cross.
Apart from irritating motorists (whom I have seen ‘Gun it’ to get through before being stopped) I don’t believe it teaches safety to our children. I was always taught to stop and wait before crossing. If they are brought up this way with no respect for traffic then I agree there is an accident waiting to happen.
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Alfie
Your post sums up the problem very well
Perhaps the Forest school special could spend a few moments observing the Elizabeth College special who successfully looks after the busy Grange crossing of several hundred boys with minimum fuss every morning
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I shouldn’t have quoted their figure, you’re quite right there, Dave R, as I don’t happen to believe a word they say currently. Apologies.
Their occasional, vague ‘reassurances’, issued only when they really have to, are always keen to stress the ‘minimal’ impact of this project in the hope of keeping everyone happy, and mean absolutely nothing, so perhaps you should ask them to properly quantify their statements as well.
– let me know if you have any luck there, and succeed where everyone else has failed.
That stretch of road is going to experience a ‘LOT’ of ‘additional’ traffic (if that sounds better to you) going past those schools, and I’ll bet that PSD haven’t included limitless numbers of hire cars in that area that will be thrown into a mix of lorries, large commercial vehicles, mini busses, workers vehicles etc.
Environment refuse to do anything about this situation, and have cited various ‘reasons’ of the years (none of which hold any water), so whilst PSD makes soothing noises, tells us nothing and people argue semantics, children are at risk and that risk will increase a LOT when the project kicks in.
I hope you find that reassuring, because personally, I don’t.
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Ray – agreed but one assumes that the EC special has a different remit to that of the Education controlled Forest special.
Its all about how one views and controls ones lollipop.
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@Forestflo
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Just another thing. I note your concern for the schoolchildren. Have you been campaigning for years for Environment to introduce improvements to the traffic management in this area? Will Environment have on record all your letters of protest? Will the Douzaine minutes show how many times you have raised this issue, imploring them to lobby Environment for changes? Will the headteacher have all your correspondence on this? Judging by his comments, these changes are seriously required, and I for one would support a campaign. Hats off to you if you have been at this for years, I admire your persistence and please keep up the good work.
Unless of course you are only speaking up now as a ploy to oppose the airport works, for whatever reason – however valid. If you have been nonchalant to the “wait ’til something happens” approach until “a child is actually run over (!)” [your words], then your sudden keen interest now would seem opportunist
And pretty cynical opportunism at that.
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Nathan, you forgot to install the traffic lights first!
I don’t believe that one actually has to stop for pedestrians waiting to cross at a zebra crossing, only once they have started to cross. It is merely guidance in the Highway Code that as a considerate motorist you should stop to allow pedestrians to cross (and to ensure you don’t run them over if they do decide to cross anyway!).
Anyway, I’m not too sure what the problem is with that crossing, ok, it’s a busy piece of road but it is not that difficult to scan both sides of the road for someone waiting to cross. Well, ok, perhaps it is if you’re trying to make a phone call, control your own kids in the back of the car etc etc
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“Put a pedestrian tunnel or bridge there for god sake and then you take the road out of the equation, giving the pedestrians complete safety and leaving the traffic to flow freely.”
It would be cheaper to merge Houguette and Forest Schools. But hell that would be a silly idea.
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I bet if they built an underpass the costs involved would soon pay for themselves in saved wages. The increased traffic flow and improved safety would be a bonuses.
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Can someone please tell me if a child has ever been knocked down on ANY of the road crossings outside the island`s schools?
If any have then how many have died?
Children MUST be strictly taught of the road crossing procedure and walked through it with the caretaker and staff of the schools.
If the “walk through” times are publicised in advance then I`m sure motorists will put up with the inconvenience for the time it will take. I`m also sure the police would be only too pleased to have an officer on hand to observe and advise and control any traffic as needs be.
I have always been an advocate of pedestrian controlled traffic lights at school crossings because both pedestrians and motorists are fully aware of their responsibilities and consequences of failing to follow the lights rules.
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Thank you for your support, Dave R, it means a lot.
Of course, persistence over resistance may not always win the day, but it’s so much better to try and actually do something rather than just sit at one’s keyboard, never actually stating a point of view, just trolling and doing nothing but denigrading those who are with constant questions (as total losers that you and I wouldn’t relate to might do!)
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I love the fact that the traffic lights there were removed because people ignored them ….. can we get rid of all the traffic lights on the island in a similar way ?
If drivers will ignore a man in a flourescent jacket telling them to stop at a crossing, will park blocking crossings, won’t wait patiently for children to cross the road, and will happily drive through a red traffic light, then there is very little we can do is there ? Other than perhaps prosecuting EVERYBODY that does it to try and knock some sense into them ….
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@Forestflo
Thing is Flo, what WOULD reassure you on this point?
Putting aside for a moment the diagreements people have over the size of the project etc and let’s say that the infill is needed, how else should it get to the site?
PSD have said in the EIA that the infill haulage won’t take place during school opening hours, as agreed with the Education Department, so children most certainly WON’T be in any more danger from the haulage operation!! Tell me, what of that doesn’t reassure you, and what would reassure you?
It seems that you are being driven by your own agenda and seek to ignore any of the factual, legal documents that have been issued and are available to read (I have), or you are reading them, and because they don’t suit your preconceptions, choose to disbelieve it.
Come on, let’s hear your wishes on the point of haulage to PSD – what would you have them do? Tell us and them how to reassure you.
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Alfie Noakes
Great post – problem in a nutshell
You have also identified a solution – a bit of common sense in the way the special constable times his stops
But there again common sense and the rules and regulations of a States department are not usually found together
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@DaveR,
You’ve hit the nail on the head there, Forestflo has been found out!
As you say any excuse to oppose the Airport work, same as several people on this forum, can’t they just accept that the work has to be done as most others have already acknowledged.
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Traffic calming has been a topic of concern for parents and teachers at Forest School for many years. Forestflo is merely reflecting that concern, which has gone largely unheeded from a department that sees no merit in common sense. (The Minister’s own words). If motorists are to be protected from errant golfers, surely it is not such a big ask to protect our children from errant motorists!
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A pedestrian tunnel/underpass is the obvious solution that solves the problem in a way that keeps everyone happy. Its such an obvious solution that it will be overlooked as common sense is in short supply on this island.
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i’ve been following this from a safe distance, but…
It seems to me that the long standing concerns about the school crossing have been further impacted by worries over additional (airport development) traffic, hence Flo (perhaps a parent?) is even more concerned than previously, and is simply sharing those views that have been previously ignored.
What is so difficult to understand about that?
The Airport development is next to their children’s schools, so they are concerned for their children, and should surely be allowed to express those views without being shot down by the pro-airport development lobbyists and antagonists on here, who could equally be accused of rubbishing legitimate parental concerns for THEIR own agendas…
cynicism en extremis.
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Surely refusing to stop is a traffic offence? Unfortunately it is not only that crossing where drivers are just speeding through. You should try to cross at the Rue Du Pre crossing. I have had to jump out the way more than once. The speed of vehicles is the problem. Many cars drive up and down La Charotterie at well over the speed limit. Speed humps are the answer.
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Nick
No
The answer is to nick (excuse the pun) a few, and then nick a few more until the motorists get the message
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@ Scarlett
Not rubbishing anyone’s concerns. As I said in my previous post, I’d support people with a genuine concern over their children’s safety. It seems from the comments from the school there are serious concerns over road safety. Someone start a petition, and I’ll put my name on it
What irks me somewhat is when Flo (“perhaps a parent?”) in one breath spouts some very spurious “fact” about the increase in traffic that is about to happen there, and then in the next breath shrugs it off with ‘I don’t happen to believe a word they (PSD) say currently….’
I’ll make my own mind up about what I believe the States says, but Flo can’t have it both ways. Misquoting them and then calling them liars.
I also acknowledged previously that some people’s concerns regarding the airport may be valid. Express them honestly, and I’ll make up my mind.
Like I said, if Flo has been a campaigner for years, hat’s off. However I’m a little sceptical.
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I think so, I think we need at least a crippled child before this will get solved. Only then will I slow down.
Ok, ok that is uncool. I will settle with a maiming.
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pyer, you are absolutely correct, the caretaker or whoever mans the crossing is a sworn in Special Constable, all he has to do is take the number and make a statement to the Police.
Nathan, first you need some lights there before you can put up a camera! Secondly you need a points system in place before you can give someone 3 points!
Rachael, you clearly don’t use this road at school times! – There IS a school crossing person and an over zealous one at that.
Alfie Noaks – spot on Sir, the man is a menace (the older one of the two that man the crossing) he steps out onto the crossing as soon as he sees anyone approaching it and does this for adults as well as children. I would have thought that he is there to see the children across the crossing and that an adult would be capable of using the crossing without his supervision.
Nelly and Nick, no, speed humps are not the answer as they are there 24 hours a day 365 days a year when the alleged problem is only for a short period of time each week day during term time.
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I echo what Dave says, Scarlett.
Flo seems to be using hyperbole, dressed as fact, to support arguments for traffic calming.
I for one drive past there every day on my way to work, and I have never seen any near misses etc (maybe I’m just driving too fast through the crossing to see any….. JK!!!)
To be honest, I’m not convinced it’s a huge problem. I remember all the furore over the St Martin crossing after the jogger got hit. If memory serves, what actually happened was a jogger didn’t do THEIR part of the highway code and checked the path was clear, shot out from behind the bank and the car didn’t stand much chance.
We always hear about the “death traps” around the island, particularly those around the schools. Yet, as far as I can recall I’ve never heard of a collision, let alone an incident.
Yes, of course I want kids to be safe, including mine, but do we REALLY do our kids a service by wrapping them up in cotton wool all the time?
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It amazes me that any time an issue like this comes to the fore the root of the problem seems to lie heavily with those that would be the first to complain if it were their child injured, THE PARENTS.
It was commented above by George, someone pulling out of the school and driving over the crossing, Valeite mentions problems at the Vale school, common theme here; PARENTS picking their kids up in too much of a hurry to get the littles darlings home or to the dance class, piano lessons or whatever.
When the Police carried out speed checks in the St Sampsons High area how many PARENTS were nicked for speeding.
It seems for some parents that once the kids are safely cocooned in the 4×4 or whatever then the safety of others is disregarded for the expediency of getting away as quick as possible.
If there is such a problem at Forest School the Special Constable should be instructed to report any drivers contravening his instruction to stop for pedestrians; Of course the Special should be trained to do the job correctly and know that if he jumps out into the road when a car is 3 feet away it is unlikely to be able to stop even at 20-25mph.
All the situation needs is someone who controls the crossing correctly (not saying the current person does not) a few bookings for errant motorists and maybe an education campaign for parents. No bridges, No underpasses just a bit of clear action.
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I have an idea give the kids hi vis vests get them some padding and a crash helmet, add a few more lollipop people plus you could Stick up some traffic lights. Also just to be safe cover the playground with rubber matting. Fence off the school and have metal detectors installed. What about moving the school off the main road and away from the noisy dangerous airport? I think if there are a small number of drivers who refuse to stop at the crossing then every crossing on the island is at risk ???????????? Panic, panic, panic. Look if the children learn about the dangers of roads they won’t become complacent and it may one day save their life when they use a crossing in another country where the cars do not stop.
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Just a little note to add to my above posting, when I said to the person parked on top of the crossing by the Vale school if he was really going to park there, his answer was, “Yes I f****** am and you aint going to f****** stop me”. His children heard this rant, so what hope is there for any of us.
I am sure the headteacher, lollipop man, or anyone else would receive the same answer.
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Perhaps the crossing could be moved further down the road to the straighter section? I believe there is a footpath so its not unreasonable for the children to walk a little while before crossing. The installation of lights would help significantly and as they would not be used very often would not impede the traffic too much. Lights would be much better than an unsightly pedestrian bridge (which I am not against but I just believe lights are the simpler and better option).
One thing is sure – something has to be done. Environment should be made to disclose their position and explain their reasoning for inaction.
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Humbug
I think making comments about the special constables is terrible. My children go to LMDC and I think the special constables have a really difficult job to do at all schools, they are often subject to abuse and people ignoring their instructions. It is particularly bad at the forest because of the speed of the traffic and the lack of patience and tolerence of drivers. I dont think anyone can criticise what they do unless they have had to do it themselves.
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