‘Tell all on top job pay’
Friday 23rd September 2011, 2:30PM BST.
SALARY ranges and expenses of key public figures should be published as one of the first steps as the States gives islanders more information about what it does, a key report released today has said.
The Policy Council this morning released a freedom of information discussion paper produced independently by expert in the field Belinda Crowe.
If the principles are accepted by the States, it would create a three-year plan which could move towards a law giving the public a statutory right to access information held by government – although it stops short of recommending this type of legislation.
The paper sets out quick wins in making the States more transparent.
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Maybe disclose the salaries, but not who gets what. I work in the private sector and dont want all and sundry to know what i personally earn.
BTW – i have no close friends or relatives at frossard house
They should be disclosing things like what the tax payers paid to the foreign trawling company. £4.5 million is the word on the quay !
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If they can justify what they are being paid then no-one should fear the information being made public. I used to work for an American company who published everybody’s salary from the top to the bottom and it worked! People knew where they stood in the pecking order and speculation about what various people might earn evaporated.
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Queenbee….totally agree…..
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As we are all contributing towards the financial black hole(caused in part by the ill fated zero ten scheme)I think it is fair that we should also get to find out what ludicrous amount of money some people at the top of the finance tree are earning.
It always seems to be the States employees that are deemed to be a massive drain on States funds, the private sector don’t always consider that everyone is supporting them as well as paying our own wages.
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It goes with the territory. The public should know what their employees earn.
This is not the private sector.
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And what territory would that be JamieC?
The one of actually not brilliant pay, little benefits save for a pension scheme (not gold plated) that is constantly under attack itself, being persistently vilified by the people they try to serve, being accused by the editor of the GP of being criminals??
Yeah, may as well have some personal details published. Would you like to know how much HOLIDAY you’re paying for as well?
Maybe you’d like to demand civil servants spend their holidays (which you personally pay for…) only in Guernsey, so your tax money stays in Guernsey.
Tell you what – next time you do some work for a CS, I urge them to demand you disclose to them your business accounts and the amount of money you make from it – after all they are paying your wages.
Unbelievable.
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Assuming this information is made public, exactly what difference is it going to make to anyone?
Oh I know, it will just give everyone (including the Press) even more reason to slag off the States.
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The fish doth protest too much, methinks.
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Billy
That would be the territory of accountability.
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Bloke, as you know I’m not a CS, but I have plenty of friends and some family who are, and I they’re all hard working people who don’t deserve all this! And I’ve never agreed with this ridiculous “I pay your wages, so jump when I say” attitude that some seem to have.
And Dave, no it is not. Everyone always bangs on about accountability – CSs are accountable to their board and managers – I’ve seen the disciplinary processes (probably shouldn’t have) and they are exactly the same as the private sector.
To the “I pay your wages mob” has it ever occurred to you that the CSs are often experienced professionals, rather than wiki/google informed armchair experts? And that if they jumped when their “employers” said so, they’d actually be wasting far more of “your” money!!
Let’s say I earn enough to pay £5,000 tax a year. My tax money represents about 0.00001% of the States expenditure. Apparently half of that is salaries, so of the £43,000 employee cost (NOT SALARY) I pay 61p to this average person. Assuming a 260 day 7.5 hour working day, that means I can tell the average CS what to do for around 2 minutes a year.
Form an orderly queue!!
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Lets not forget the new office in Brussels that we share with Jersey. Just how much are we paying the the two senior staff there and just how much benifit will that expensive office be.
The States were told £200,000 when it went before them in 2009 with little detail. It will be interesting to see how it appears in States accounts next year.
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Oh come off it! CS have the cushiest jobs there are! Less hours, silly money & Billy the fish, if a CS did employ a member of the private sector then surly they would know what they had earned from the invoice.
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Sam
It will appear in the column next to the one headed ‘Fishing dispute compensation’
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@ Ray …. 4.5 million !
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damo
I wonder what would happen in the private sector if one of the staff on very nearly the top pay scale had lost the firm 4.5 million
Sweep it under the carpet to save that person embarrassment? I doubt it
Watch out for the main culprit to be elevated to an even higher position in the next few months
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@Icey
Really? How many meeting rooms outside the CS have to have panic alarms fitted? How many jobs involve being lowered into sewage storage tanks? How many private sector workers are accused of being criminals?
We’ve done the silly pay argument already, let me know if you want a recap!!!
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What’s your point Billy?
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How many CS jobs are occupied by non-qualified, non-experienced, non- professional people by the way? Oh and how many only ever get these very cushy numbers by a way of who they know not what?
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Ray, you wonder if someone in a top job in the private sector lost 4.5 million. Well from what we’ve seen lately either get a couple of million bonus or a 3 or 4 million payoff.
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Icey,
Have you ever worked for the Civil Service?
If, as I suspect you haven’t, I don’t think you are really qualified to slag civil servants off as lazy, unprofessional and unexperienced.
If it is such a cushy number I recommend you try and get a job in the Civil Service, it sounds like you might fit the necessary criteria!
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I was a CS for 22 years, plodding along with my part time money for which I was very grateful, a lot of my friends were earning pounds more an hour in the finance sector, but I enjoyed my job and the department I worked in, so I did not look to move on.
Now all of a sudden everyone wants to know what CS are earning, and I would like to know to what benefit would it help you, just wind you up even more. I grant you it seems that in certain departments there are too many staff and in others not enough and it was not that long ago that when a job was advertised in the GP the salary scale was also printed for all to see.
I do believe the scale needs looking at, as there are some very menial jobs placed on what I consider to be a high scale.
No one wanted to work in the Civil Service a few years ago because the finance industry was paying mega bucks the CS was a bit of a laughing stock, but now the worm has turned and I dont think that the majority of CS should be attacked in this way.Some of them have worked in the CS all their working life and believe me in the department I worked in, now these people have retired it must be hard going.
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Billy the Fish – I disclose my earnings annually to the Civil Servants at Income Tax, as must we all – it’s the law. So they know what I earn…
I’m curious as to which civil servants get lowered into sewage tanks. I would have thought possibly trained civil engineers or surveyors, who would generally be well paid – the trained professionals you mention- or do you mean manual workers, as opposed to civil servants?
If those in meeting rooms require panic buttons, maybe that says something about the level of sevice the public are getting. If we only get to meet the obstructive and obtuse, then we get a bit frustrated. I have certainly attended meetings where I have raised my voice, both in meetings with CS and within my own firm’s meeting rooms.
If I employed someone so feeble or offensive that they required a panic button; or if I conducted my business in such a way that my staff got regularly abused – the chances are that most of my clients would have already walked away, and I’d be broke.
Contrast that to the CS position, where such management is rewarded with more money, bigger pensions and promotion. Easier to blame the shouting, frustrated public, than look to the root policy cause.
Valeite – it would serve to nail the lies that we spread about states workers – but inconveniently for the CS apologists, it would also nail their assumption that they are low paid, downtrodden or somehow falling behind the private sector.
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Kevin, I have worked “under” CS’s and believe me they thought that they were a cut above everyone! They were paid more than people who had more skill and more responsibility. The assistants had assistants & they worked less hours! Billy, Panic alarms? Hmmm, wonder how many times they’ve been used? Sewage tanks? It’s usually the manual workers that do that. Do CS actually do it? If so, oh dear. I bet the fisherman who work 20hr days in awful conditions and only get paid a percentage of what they catch would laugh at that one. Criminals? I’ve never called them criminals. Last week, after deductions I took home £642.84. Why tell you? Well because I worked a 70hr week in a very manual & responsible job to get! I tell you because I’m not embarrassed to say what I earned because I worked hard for it! I wonder if CS many CS workers could say the same? If they could then what’s the problem?
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I don`t give a damn what others earn as long as they ARE earning it.
What I do care about is that taxpayers money is being given away in secret deals (fishing compensation) while not being accounted for openly. It is being hidden in other accounting and THAT STINKS of an unaccountable government which is totally unacceptable in todays moral standards.
Why was this kept secret? Are the elections too close and the people responsible for this deal too high in government and are too scared to face the public?
It makes no difference what people are earning if the job they are doing is being done well and they are not fiddling the books.
Already hugh figures are being bandied about and the truth will out eventually, someone out there will crack the code and find these false accounts and when they do the cr** will hit the fan (Remember the MP`s expenses scandals?), Still, by then this lot could well be gone and others will have to sort out the mess.
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Bob – your comment about income tax returns is so laughable I don’t think I can comment seriously – a few CS’s at Income tax seeing people’s returns is hardly publishing your income for all to see, is it?!
What difference does it make if it is “well paid” engineers or manual workers – the fact remains that not many people would lower themselves into poo for whatever they earn (I would guess around the average!).
As for meeting rooms needing panic buttons, I guess you’ve never had to deal with the kind of people that can wind up in those room – let’s face it, the kind of bad news that can be imparted in those rooms can drive people of any disposition at all to their limits.
You can choose who to do business with and tailor your service to suit. The same is not true of the CS.
Sorry Bob, try again…
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Icey,
In every walk of life there are some people that are more productive than others, I don’t doubt that there are those in the CS that are overpaid for what they do but you are bang out of order slating the CS as a whole.
For the record I have briefly worked in the CS so I have at least got some idea of what goes on, believe me it is not as cushy as outsiders may think!
Why would I have left if it is such an easy life??
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Freedom of information is not new – new’s. Jersey states, past it in principle in 2008 and screaming and crying made it real law a few months back 2011, when top levels of civil servants had their names, positions and then the amount of pay awarded published. In fairness all gov. accounts are on line plus all states minutes so we can see who voted and who said what as an example of collective voting hit link.
http://planetjersey.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,395.0.html
You see Billythefish the taxpayers have no choice but to pay taxes it is written in law, the politicians spend that money.
How they spend it and who they pay and how much comes under a simple word that many in Government and who work for the Gov. try and avoid like the plague. It’s called accountability.
Guernsey should have freedom of information,and full information of meetings.If not why not ?
Davey
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nocon
Re the fishing dispute millions.The cr*p may have already hit the fan with the announcement this morning that HM Comptoller rather than HM Procureur has been earmarked for the position of Deputy Bailiff
Billy
I wonder how many of those panic buttons are rigged up in the public meeting rooms at the planning office?
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Billfish – No more laughable than your Sep 24th, 2.53. BTW – you can include the States Insurance, education and Housing onto a list of CS depts that know what many private individuals earn.
You seem to be missing the thrust of the story:
We are talking here about publicising the salary grades of the top half-dozen or so civil servants. All the others are on already published grades anyway, but we don’t know who is on which one. That will not change. Your average poo-dipped sewerage engineer or (non CS) manual worker will not have his earnings publicly disclosed. These top-end individuals, however are off the regular scale. They wouldn’t have to publish their incomes, just that part paid for their services to the state – their private income wouldn’t figure. In the world of accountability, such publication is the norm, rather than the exception – look at any public company accounts to see what the directors salaries and pension contributions are. Most UK local authorities do the same, and so now do most UK public bodies and quangos.
My point on panic buttons, while not entirely lost on you, seems to be stuck half-way. I’m pressing, but no bell. I am not free to choose which CS departments or individuals I have to deal with, nor are most of us; to employ the sort of half-educated, snot-nosed, jobsworth, sewage-dipped, holier-than-thou timewasters that the public occasionally have to deal with at the governmental interface is likely to cause occasional problems. Frankly, the odd low-life scumbag that gets upset in the meeting room and causes some discomfort is payback for the amount of illogic and frustration usually foisted upon the hard-pressed public by the button pusher (not that I condone that kind of behaviour). Many of them reap what they or their management policies have sown. Where government officialdom is unreasonable, unthinking and often mocking in its behaviour, then these people really need to be hidden away somewhere. I accept they aren’t all that bad, but recent experience would suggest that it’s a growing trend – as Valeite rightly says – as some of the older, experienced hands have retired, or as likely have “been retired”. Probably for being too civil.
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Taxpayers pay for public servants therefore taxpayers should be able to identify what remuneration is paid for employees of such service.
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For clarity, lest I am misunderstood: I unequivocally say that not only are the vast majority of public sector employees decent, hard working and highly valuable members of society; but that in my opinion without them our society would probably crumble under the resultant incompetence of those competing political and management interests generally known as “The States”.
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