We could not take risks, say police
Thursday 20th October 2011, 11:00AM BST.
Police officers, including community officer PC Karl Addis, right, were called to Les Genats Estate yesterday to sort out another dispute. (Picture by Steve Sarre, 1189926)
POLICE have defended their reaction to a domestic incident that saw the whole of Les Genats Estate turned into a no-go area.
Residents and callers to the Guernsey Press were frustrated that they were denied access to their homes by police cordons as an armed response unit attended a disturbance in which a woman and a baby were said to be in danger.
But police operational commander, Chief Inspector Nigel Taylor, said while the frustration was understandable, the precautions were necessary.
‘The primary concern of the police and the other services involved was the safety of the baby, the woman involved, the public and the officers who were attempting to resolve the matter,’ he said.
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It is about time that the public stopped being overtly critical and hostile towards decsions taken by the authorities in strained situations. How would those being critical towards the police in particular, feel if they had not taken the steps they did and serious harm had come to the woman and her child, and the community generally. The police, in my view took the most coherent and safe action they could under what was undoubtedly, extreunating circumstances. So stop criticising them everyone!
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Thing is it wasnt just the estate that was closed, all residents of La Hougue du Pommier werent allowed to access their homes, even tho that had nothing to do with the estate situation….one woman tried to access her house and was told by the police to go sit on Cobo beach! how is that helpful to residents simply trying to get home!
Another officer that was at the start of the la hougue du pommier told someone to b*gger off simply becuase they didnt understand the situation. Then around 9pm La Mare school road was closed? why?! had they lost the girl in question and therefore needed to close every road.
There was a bloke stood in annadale entrance since 4pm and was told he couldnt go to his home which again was not in the estate! and really why did it need every single policer officer in GUERNSEY and specials to deal with this situation! it was one girl having an argument with her bloke! absolutely stupid…and now the police look like a bunch of cowboys and need to defend their actions but they did not need to close 2 major roads and all surrounding areas! absolutely pathetic!
Stupid thing is even in New York they wouldnt do that if a major bank was about to be robbed or blown up so yes little old guernsey with its coppers that are jumped up attitude bullies and their posh new BMW’s needed to patrol the estate with guns and dogs over 1 woman having “raised voices” inside her home!
be careful people if you shout in your OWN home whatever the situation expect for all major roads to your house and an armed police force to be at your door!
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I agree that safety is the prime concern, but the issue is how far that safety zone is extended
To have to cancel table tennis and cricket at a venue across the road and down a long driveway seems unnecessary
Anyway, another tick in the box for the number of times our expensive armoured BMWs have been used
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Further to the commotion last night at Les Genats, during which thousands of civilians were displaced from the parish of the Castel, the bitterly anti-climactic truth is that apparently “some p*ssed bird” had a routine dust-up with her bloke, he then stormed off and she bellowed after him (undoubtedly in a fit of drunken rage) that she was going to burn the ‘effing house down and the pitbull terrier with it. She is then believed to have fallen asleep and in fact could be heard snoring from 3 doors down.
Needless to say, rather than treat the incident with the contempt it deserved, the entire Guernsey Police force complete with armed response unit was mobilised and the whole of the parish was locked-down for 6 hours. Folk were driven from their homes for a 3 mile radius and families were forced to bed down in distant fields and rub sticks together to generate heat.
Claims made that a top level SAS negotiator was flown in by Aurigny to “talk the woman down” are as yet unsubstantiated, although it is believed she peacefully gave herself up after a lengthy kip, a fag and a couple of Alka Selzers.
As other rumours abound concerning film rights, various knighthoods, a book deal and an album before Christmas, the Guernsey Police were this morning keen to avoid explaining their actions. Asked if they felt they had in any way “overreacted”, an indignant press-officer tossed aside criticism and awkward questions, stating that in fact a tip-off from “down the Bridge” hinted that the very security of the western world was in jeopardy and that Al-Qaeda were thought to be behind the incident.
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<>
Now that I know the circumstances were extreunating, I can understand the police’s actions.
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What a farce – a complete over-reaction by bumpkin coppers that makes them look ridiculous.
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Only a few weeks ago 5 people were killed in Jersey including children. Before people start talking about the police over reacting to a domestic dispute, we should reflect on that fact. The Chief of Police has to make sure the safety of those involved in these disputes is paramount. What can seem on the surface to be a dispute that may fizzle out, can soon become a major incident where people loose their lives. Yes people were inconvenienced for a period but unfortunately that is unavoidable in these stressful situations but I for one am grateful the decisions that Patrick Rice and his officers have to make on theses occasions are theirs and not mine.
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Perhaps a Castel Deputy will have the gumption to ask a question on Operation Overkill at the next States meeting
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Like many ny initial reaction was “why on earth did they need to close the estate” however now I’ve had some time to think I think we should cut the police some slack.
I can appreciate why people would be annoyed but the police are called upon to make quick decisions in high pressure situations with often limited information.
In hindsight the reaction was possibly a bit OTT but hindsight is a wonderful thing people.
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Those complaining, were you actually there at the scene at the time? Did you hear what was being said etc etc etc. Like usual, if you think you can do a better job then join the police see what they have to deal with and then whinge and complain.
I don’t mind standing up and saying stuff like it was an over reaction when I see the whole facts and it states that, however at the moment it’s all based on rumours and of course it must be true because my cousin’s wife’s friend lives at the other end of the estate.
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Chief Inspector Nigel Taylor should explain the reasoning behind this huge overreaction. It’s hardly as though there were suicide bombers involved in the property in question.
Something else, which is important, is the fact residents were put out through no fault of their own.
With the oversupply of the resources one would have thought at least a single officer would have seen fit for the nearby school to be opened as somewhere relatively comfortable for those displaced.
It would appear there is a strange obsession to prove the need for the new resources at every opportunity. Is it training opportunities whilst earning overtime rates I wonder?
I look forward to the Chief explaining his actions.
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@Storm In Teacup
What an excellent post I had such a good laugh.
(beleive me a good laugh is needed these days)
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MrsG ~ I live in La Rue Des Francais (if you don’t know where that is its a little lane by the estate) and i was told by an extremely rude police officer to move along (i wont use the real words he used) and said i could not access my house which isnt in the estate! they closed la hougue du pommier and la mare school road! so why did they need to do that?! i completely understand that they wanted to close the estate fine whatever but why two major roads when the lady in question was sat in her house!? hummm? so yes i will comment because i WAS there! i managed to get to my house via a lovely police officer that was very kind and understanding to my situation that my house was no where the incident! but when i got home i could see a ton of police officers at the entrance to annendale with a massive spot light which i can only assume will come out of MY tax money awesome!!!!!
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@ Mrs Penq
Thanks :0)
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Does that mean Dave Jones that every domestic in the island will be attended by Guernsey police in this fashion just in case?!!
Also if this was such a hair-raising situation, why did attending officers sit back and have a coffee and a cake??
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Dave
Using your logic every domestic incident would require a reaction like this, as I’m sure that most houses have knives in them that could potentially be used in an attack.
Quite how anyone’s safety was helped by having not just the whole estate closed but also the surrounding area is beyond me. Throw into the mix rude jumped up woodentops and it’s a complete and utter farce. What would have happened if the incident had taken place along the front, say by the Longstore? If a similar sized “exclusion zone” had been enforced, the island’s busiest thoroughfare would have been closed and thousands of people would have been stuck in Admiral Park for goodness knows how long. All because of a drunken threat made in a flat above the Co-Op. Madness, however don’t expect any admission of over-reaction by the police, who are second only to politicians in terms of arrogance when it comes to admitting mistakes.
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You make a very valid point referring to that terrible tragedy in Jersey few weeks back but were so many police required here? It just seems like overkill; a heavy handed approach almost designed put the backs up of a lot of folk who were trying to get on with their day, because of a “domestic” that might get out of hand.
I do have a bit of sympathy for the police – in these sorts of situations they will be damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
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to all complaining about an overeaction – consider this ..
there are plenty of examples of seemingly minor domestic dust ups getting horribly worse ( some very close and very recent ) . also consider that maniacs with weapons tend not to stay conveniently in one place.
suppose the police had considered it a normal domestic and at best sent one car and a couple of officers down. and then someone with a knife ( or worse ) had gone on a rampage through the estate and down the road – you would all be complaining at the lack of response, and why a dangerous person was left to run free on the streets that should have been cordened off ……
so quit moaning and try supporting the police in doing a difficult, and potentially fatally dangerous job.
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If this had happened near me, I would be glad of police presence to hopefully prevent injury or loss of life.
One question, were Civil Defence or other similar contacted to provide overnight sleeping accommodation and food to the stranded people? Or is there a time limit before this would happen? One never knows how long an incident can last.
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Whatever The police do in these situations they will be criticised and going back many years things might have been handled differently, however people and times change, peoples behaviour changes and the Police are not clairvoyants every situation will be different. In this case it ended without incident but I would suggest it is very easy for all of us who are not in positions where we have to make a judgment call on a specific day, trying to second guess how serious a situation is or how serious it might become. If Police officers were rude then make a formal complaint and it will be looked into but I am content as Housing Minister that the police take operational decisions based on what they know at the time. I know many of our tenants were inconvenienced as a result of this incident but I ask all of them to be a little more tolerant towards those whose job it is to protect all of us.
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Can anyone explain what “extreunating” means? (see MrSwifty01 at top). I can’t seem to find it in the dictionary…
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Alternate Ending
“Due to the lack of response from the local police force another family murdered”
Of course there could be many headlines that could be written and the many forum posters will be getting on their soap box to say “how could the police let this happen” etc etc
So what if you couldn’t play your cricket match or miss the latest episode of neighbours. Get real !
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KJC
It will be for the Police to decide what operational resources are necessary to deploy to a given incident, not the general public and certainly not politicians. I am afraid there are now too many unknown risks to consider and as one poster has said hindsight is a wonderful thing. Give the Chief of Police some credit, he is not a man who is prepared to put the safety and welfare of others at risk, surly we see that as a good thing don’t we? As for the idea that he sends officers out to difficult situations just to “put the backs up of a lot of people trying to get on with their day” that comment is quite frankly insulting. The area cordoned off would have been a matter of judgment for officers on the ground and if it was to extensive then that will be a matter of discussion for those involved during the de-briefing stage in the days to come. We don’t get many of these incidents, if fact they are quite rare and if the Police took more precautions than many of the residents thought necessary then I can only repeat what I said before, We leave these things to a well trained police force and if they deem certain precautions are necessary then we have to accept that and support them even if doing so does cause some inconvenience to others.
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Bridge,
I’m guessing it was a case of ‘too-eager fingers’, and it should’ve read ‘extenuating’. Although, of course, I might be completely wrong…
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Bridge – I assume he/she means extenuating – but perhaps it was a case of typing too fast!
I am sure the police had their reasons to react in the way they did. So what, if some people had to stay away from their houses for a few hours?
The Guernsey Grapevine is working overtime, and i shan’t repeat the rumours that were being mentioned yesterday. If true, then obviously the police did the right thing.
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I don’t think its fair to say “with hindsight you should have….” No one has that benefit unfortunately (wish i did as I’d buy a national lottery ticket – if we were allowed to play it over here).
However, I don’t think you need hindsight, or 40 years of operational experience to make a fairly obvious decision in a situation like this, to close the estate. But not all the surrounding roads! How ridiculous. That was a silly, unreasonable and over the top decision. The police should be accountable and have to answer to that.
On a side note. If it had gone on all night I wonder where the people blocked from their homes would have slept? Surely they wouldn’t have made them sleep rough?
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I agree wiv Jones, Armed Police at the Taxi Rank weekends
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I Have never laughed so much in all my life..what a complete and utter shambles.
It’s not April FOOL by any chance!
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When the incident started off.It was relayed to all via face book friends .Some thought they were filming the next episode of “Shameless”.
Some of the things that were said on the site were indeed very scary ,”she had a knife” ,then “she had a gun”then she was going to “kill her child “..
So glad none of it was true .
Perhaps the way forwards should have been to send her in a nice cuppa tea…. with a sleeping pill in it,or even a relaxant to calm thing down.
This lady is now costing the tax payer many thousands of pounds for an incident that went wrong .
If the police react to every domestic like this we will soon use up all monies with in the states .
Thankfully they will use this as a event to learn from.
You can never be to careful, we all understand this . Lets hope a lesson has been learnt
I do wonder what would have happened if something else big had happened at the same time.Would we have enough police to respond to this ?
The tenants have now all received a letter of apology.. adding to even more costs
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Ffs. The x5′s are not armoured plated. Just standard jackson’s stuff. But with a few blue lights.
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I suggest that if you ever find yourself having an argument with your other half, that from now on it would be a sensible precaution to shut all your doors and windows and keep your voices down. Otherwise you may find the barrel of a Taser gun poking through your letter box ! !
keep it up lads…. great entertainment !
P S .. love the new toys !
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The impression I have is that our police have far too much time on their hands. All tooled up with the latest toys and trained to the gills in rambo style policing techniques more suitable for Manchester or Beirut. Then left on most days with nothing more to do than move along a couple of drunks or return a wandering cow. No wonder they can’t wait to turn every half excuse into a massive operation involving as many officers and equipment over as wide an area as possible. It has nothing to do with delivering the policing the island actually needs and everything to do with self promotion, moneywasting and egotripping. Oooh now I’ve committed the crime of criticizing the police – I’ll probably get tazered as I fetch my newspaper.
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@Theo
It’s all very well making jokes about what whas clearly a gross over reaction to a relatively minor incident but bear in mind the taxpayer has to find the money to pay for all this.
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I will expect to see a huge rise in new recruits to the Island Police, as so many people clearly know how to provide a more suitable style of policing…. But I won’t hold my breath. Perhaps if the inhabitants of the Genats could behave like proper grownups this may not have happened?
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I beleive the police where only doing there job and well done to them. Ok it started out as a family argument but could of ended up alot worse.
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I wonder what Trotter would have done in the good old days?
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It is unfortunate that we are seeing more and more incidents although I think this is more of a reflection to the ever increasing Drug problem that Guernsey faces. The Genats estate has now become the largest housing estate since the Bouet was demolished and with it all the problems are being placed in one area. Used hyperdermic Needles are now a common sight near where children play. The housing Ministers joy of demolishing the last house on the Bouet may of got rid of Bad Housing but not the underlying problems. These have just been moved along to other areas of the island.
With so much Narcotic now being consumed in one area things will only continue to breakdown and more incidents will be reported.
Guernsey I am afraid is not what it was.
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Sarah
One of the best posts I have ever read!
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Ray.
He’d have hidden in a gateway somewhere near the Genats and nabbed anyone speeding home to see what all the fuss was about.
Never one to miss a trick old Noel
Bless him !!
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zippy
You have a valid point. It is well common knowledge the island has an ever increasing methamphetamine problem. The local heroin addicts have taken up this substance as a cheaper alternative to their usual drug of choice because it is cheaper and more easily obtainable. Many know it is driving users into fits of psychotic rage.
Until the authorities start to wise up and get tough incidents will keep escalating on a regular basis.
Addicts should be tested on a regular basis. They should be locked up for testing positive for illegal substances in their system. A zero tolerance policy is needed.
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The police are saying not to take risks? Thus implying they already do?
All of their notable “work” goes on roaming streets speed-gunning, or stopping young drivers with the intent to make them feel nervous. Believe it or not, at 17, not everyone steals a car.
Another “admirable service” they provide, is stringent ID-ing. They themselves dress up as bouncers/undercover officers and ID anyone they feel like – bouncers are hired for that reason. Also, they’re not successful as they always seem to ID those of a male variety whom are over 18 and never the girls who are 14-16 and blatantly underage.
Major risks indeed…
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Ray
The “good old days” scenario would go like this now.
Police officer would take attend the scene and most probably meet with the parents and given “a clip round the ear” to the young person and warned them to “buck up their ideas”. Told the parents to start getting some control over the children and more likely “warned” them and said they will be watching them closely.
Then the parents and young person will contact social services and the Chief of police and report the police officer for assault and harassment. The officer would be suspended pending an investigation.
A huge amount of money spent on police time, Social workers, Doctors, Family support and the additional money for overtime needed to cover the police officer suspension with full pay.
The police officer career is now ruined/tarnished and Social Services placing the young person in care because the parents are unable to control the young person. The cost to support this young person in care and the parent’s marriage breaks down and the costs for legal aid and both parents mental health affected.
Young person continues to lead a “life of crime”
Police officer takes early retirement as he decides “is it worth it”
Mum remarries and has multiple children with various men and is unable to work
Dad goes to Thailand and comes back broke and needs Social to pay for his Doctors bills because of things he caught whilst away.
New police officer sworn in and asked to attend a course on “human rights” and to be careful on what they say and do and provided a Taser Gun as the answer.
Tongue in cheek I know but how close to the truth?
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I need to correct the above. I am informed the substance is crystal methamphetamine. An exceptionally popular substance in America due to how quickly users become addicted.
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Thats modern day guernsey peeps
1 respect No
2 honesty No
3 caring No
4 Drug Abuse Yes
5 Neglected Children Yes
6 Poor Parenting Yes
Bring on the exodus
You know it makes sense.
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Observant
You seem to be suggesting that zero tolerance works in Western countries, whereas of course the opposite is true. Addiction is an illness, unfortunately the facilities for helping people in Guernsey are somewhat limited, hence the relatively high numbers of addicts, both of legal and illegal substances. There are dozens of youngsters absolutely off their heads on alcohol every single weekend in St Peter Port, what gets done about it? Pretty much nothing, as their drug of choice is a legal one.
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PBFalla. Things aren’t so rosey on the mainland either.
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To all of those passing judgement on the actions taken on this particular night. If you think you could make a better call or do a better job may I suggest you either apply to join either full time or volunteer as a Special Constable. That way you will be able to see the other side of policing and believe me Guernsey certainly isn’t the quiet little place it used to be. I suspect that most of the ‘knockers’ on here have had run ins with the police and have grudges to bear and love to have a ‘dig’. However who do those people turn to when they end up as a victim, I wonder?
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Donkey Doo (and that is very apt)
Personally I turn to myself, and if required to family and friends. I find personally administered justice vastly more enjoyable and effective than using the woodentops.
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Sorry to disillusion you, Donkey Doo. I have never had any dealings with the police except to report ‘lost & found’ and I know several police officers socially. Nevertheless I still think the island does not need and cannot afford these SWAT style armed operations. Are we to expect something similar everytime somebody has an argument and they MIGHT have access to a breadknife, spudgun, chainsaw or box of matches?
If we are supposed to get paranoid about any level of risk, why not worry about armed police having a bad day and killing somebody by mistake? In a number of UK cases innocent people have been shot for holding a chairleg, running at the wrong time etc. To my mind there is more likliehood of a member of the public getting killed this way in Guernsey than being saved by the police whilst they are safely tucked up inside their armoured cars. How is that supposed to work exactly? We are paying for them, I think we deserve an explanation.
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Beanjar – Thank you for noticing and voicing that concern. Guernsey is now LESS safe thanks to the armoured (and armed) Police vehicles that the seemingly omnipotent Police Chief has forced upon Islanders.
If the Island really HAS become as violent as the Police report, to the extent that they need lethal weaponry at a domestic disturbance, no doubt we can expect more Islanders to walk around carrying weapons of their own in order to defend themselves from these numerous violent attackers??
It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The fact that local Police officers are routinely patrolling our streets brandishing lethal firearms is totally unacceptable. Mr Rice and those in charge of the Firearms unit should be ashamed.
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@ Vigilante. Your attitude is part of the problem
@ Beanjar. I did say most (not all)
@ Beanjar & Pauli T. Tell you what lets get rid of the police firearms seeing as you believe that we don’t need them. When someone decides to go mad with a knife (i.e. Jersey) or heaven forbid a gun we’ll call the UK (or Jersey) to send some over and sit around while the casualties mount up.
Like it or not the Police Chief has to ensure the safety of his officers (and everyone else) which on occasions requires the deployment of weapons. Don’t blame him, blame the Health and Safety numpties who will hold him responsible if a member of the public or an officer gets hurt.
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It would be a whole different list of comments had there been any fatalities – by and large the Police were right (without the benefit of hindsight)
Having said that; I was surprised to see just how far the disruption extended, which I cannot see a valid reason for considering this lady was actually inside her home.
I suppose, had the closures not been widespread many would have had the “lets go and see what’s happening” mentality; more cars clogging up the roads so wouldn’t have got through anyway !!
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Donkey Doo, you’re over-reacting again – rather like the police in that respect. The police have always had controlled access to firearms and I have no problem with that, even though they never prevent crimes such as the Jersey knife murders you cited. My problem is with these regular heavy-handed shows of arms at every inapropriate opportunity. This gung-ho militaristic approach is likely to get somebody innocent killed. Specifically I resent the £400,000 armoured cars which might protect the police inside them if they were ever under armed attack but serve no useful function on Guernsey.
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The police reponse was over the top. Fair enough they had to respond and contain the situation but its fairly obvious the cordon was too large. They had to make a call, they made it and over-reacted. No biggie, hopefully they’ll take that on board next time.
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Maybe the Police were right in this case but frankly they need to change the educational requirements to join. You can become an Police Officer with not even one GCSE.
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@ Beanjar. We have to agree to differ on this one but please get some facts straight. The BMWs are NOT armour plated they are bog standard vehicles with gun boxes in the rear. The only armour plated vehicle will be a Landrover when/if it ever materialises.
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They didn’t tell me the landrover didn’t arrive yet, I just pay for the damn thing. £400,000 spent on 3 vehicles, supposedly at a time of financial restraint, is overkill. Why didn’t they buy an army surplus vehicle if they need one so badly? The one up at the Mallard would have done the job, not sexy enough?
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