Leaked email reveals big division in Policy Council
Tuesday 25th October 2011, 11:30AM BST.
DIVISIONS have been exposed in the Policy Council as the GCSE saga developed with Education minister Carol Steere questioning whether she should continue to have confidence in the chief minister.
An email from Deputy Steere (pictured) to Lyndon Trott, sent in the wake of him announcing the need to review education services, contrasts with the public show of unity from the Policy Council on this issue so far.
The email was sent to a civil servant who had emailed all deputies with Deputy Trott’s statement.
‘Please pass on my comments to all PC members that I believe the CM has acted in a most discourteous manner to myself as Education Minister and, indeed, the council itself by sending such a statement as CM and not as an individual member,’ said Deputy Steere. ‘Most inappropriate – and I question whether I should continue to have confidence in his position.’
It is understood that her comments have been circulated to all States members since.
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Another guernsey shambles
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Peas in a pod. I have no confidence in either of them. Bunch of muppets and typical politicians.
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Thats good Carol, look in the mirror, you’ll see someone that many islanders question their confidence in.
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But I thought the Chief Minister told Jum Cathcart in his interview on the 24th that the Policy Council were united, in fact they were even closer together as a result of all this. Is the CM telling porkies again just to appear good?
From Deputy Steer’s email it appears there is underlying disent.
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*alternative headline*
Staggering Steer tries to take Trott as she goes!
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Dave Haslam
Not that many and certainly not Lyndon Trott whose confidence Carol Steere does still have evidently.
This is not news this is old stuff being dragged out, most of those comments were stated on camera so where is the leak?
Why are you still Carol bashing?
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Is it any wonder many people have lost confidence in the States with this kind of nonsense going on?
This only serves to reinforce my suspicion that some of our senior politicians are more concerned with their egos than the welfare of the island they are elected to serve.
Given the recent Education fiasco I would have thought both Deputies Trott and Steere would have more important things to do than get involved in a school yard tiff.
I feel sorry for those Deputies who try their best to represent us and are tarnished with the same brush. Speaking of brushes – next April can’t come quickly enough to sweep a few of them out.
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Parent A – sorry for another post, I didn’t see yours.
The issues surrounding Deputy Steere’s leadership of Education are more than just the GCSE results issue. She has also presided over the uniforms for high schools policy change (despite no clear evidence of benefits) which will cause Guernsey families unnecessary expense during tough economic times; not to mention the fiasco surrounding the Catholic Schools where her Department has interfered in a parent’s right (within reason) to choose their children’s education.
I have tried (albeit with difficulty) to present a balanced view and accept she is not solely responsible for what has happened. Nevertheless, I am a parent of a two year and I remain gravely concerned about the Education system my daughter will likely enter in two years time.
My posts are strong because I know my daughter has only one childhood and quite frankly, given the issues above, I have absolutely zero confidence in an Education Department with Deputy Steere at the helm – and I know my daughter only has one childhood. I simply don’t want to take the risk.
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Len
Yes he did say that and he also said “it would have been ludicrous to have made judgement on the political board’s performance until the outcome of the review is known”.
I don’t know why he said these things only he does and you are free to speculate but he certainly didn’t say it to make opinion columnists look good.
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ParentA
I think most people want to see CS honour her resignation!
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Carol – you got back in by the skin of your teeth (and your own vote) but have you learned anything?? Even Matt Fallaize didn’t support you.
Just go now. Don’t forget what happened to Wendy Morgan.
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Paul Le Page
Its almost irrelevant which politicians run Education. They have no power whatsoever. All power is held by Derek Neale and all decisions are made by Derek Neale. You could put the very best politicians on Education (we didn’t) and it would make zero difference until we find a board which is prepared to challenge Derek Neale.
I suspect this is the reason behind the CM’s stance. He may not be popular but he’s not stupid. I’m quite certain that he knows where the root cause lies.
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Paul Le Page
This school yard tiff took place publicly several weeks ago so this is not a “news” story.
I’m glad you have raised the uniform issue as this is one policy I wholly support. This is a matter of equality versus stigma.
The right to wear a blazer and tie to school is a badge of honour in Guernsey for those who have either passed the 11+ or are fee paid and therefore of higher social status. When the children are out of school it creates a “them” and “us” situation.
This only serves to advance division in society and I applaud Carol Steere for being brave enough to address it.
Pardon me but the parents of Grammar pupils and special place college pupils have to pay for blazers in these tough economic times and I have heard no complaints from them. Do you think these children have wealthier families?
I cannot understand why any parent who can afford it would begrudge paying a little extra to send their child to school in business like attire rather than a scruffy sweatshirt which for many professional adults would be regarded as weekend comfort clothing suitable for kicking round the house in.
I’m sure that parents who really can’t afford it will be helped as they are now.
Don’t get me started with the Catholic schools as I have equally strong views about “teaching” of religion in schools.
I have previously made clear that I think the 11+ system is flawed however I hope I can offer you some reassurance that from my personal experience I have every reason to feel confident that my child will achieve full potential at LMDC High.
My concern is that Carol Steere’s future is so damaged due to the hype of this issue that someone far less understanding and capable will take over and make a REAL hash of things. If the review condemns her I will stand corrected.
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simon
I think 8 out of 10 cats prefer wiskas but I can’t be sure.
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Good Morning,
@Grumpy Teacher ‘Just go now. Don’t forget what happened to Wendy Morgan.’ So true, reminiscent of the infamous Les Lachuer / Bachelension incident from 1948, who would want to live to see that repeated!
Good day
Godfrey
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ParentA – I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject of uniforms. We both have our personal subjective opinions however in the absence of any concrete evidence either way the idea can only be described as a vanity project.
As regards teaching religion in schools, without going too much in depth as I’ve discussed this on many an occasion, despite my strong personal religious convictions like you I don’t believe in State school religious indoctrination. However I do believe in a parents right to choose (as much as is reasonably possible) an education in line with their faith – something that Education (under Deputy Steere’s leadership) has attempted to deny for no reasonable reason that I can see.
GM – I think perhaps you’ve hit the nail on the head. You say politicians have no power and it all rests with Mr Neale. You then add “You could put the very best politicians on Education (we didn’t) and it would make zero difference until we find a board which is prepared to challenge Derek Neale.” I say that is exactly what we need to do then. Find some Deputies who have the strength and determination to put him in his place. It’s supposed to be called government for a reason.
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ParentA
That’s quite a chip you have on your shoulder!
I’d have thought that it’s crystal clear that on average the parents of Grammar School and scholarship pupils at the colleges are wealthier than the parents of high school pupils. This is in part due to the fact that a greater proportion of wealthier people encourage/push/help their children in their education. That is not to say that less well off parents don’t do the same, but proportionately that is definitely the case. How many primary school children of better off people do you see out at all hours at places like Les Genats, L’Aumone etc?
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ParentA
Tell me are you the campaigne manager for CS by any chance?
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Parent A
I havent spoken to a SINGLE person who has confidence in Carol Steere.
Also the overwhelming majority on these boards also seem to have no confidence in her either so I find it odd that you intimate people who have lost faith in CS are in a minority.
Maybe this is the case happy fantasy land where everything is great and all kids are getting a superfantabulous education, and subsequently trot off into the sunset with their amazing futures and six figure salary jobs laid out ahead of them…… You may beleive this but unfortunately, I assure you reality is somewhwat different.
As for carol bashing, you shouldnt mistake bashing with stating the obvious.
Its clear you have an affinity with CS, but really, the staunch defence routine is getting somewhat tiresome now.
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ParentA – I guess what I’m trying to say is that irrespective of our differing views on uniforms, the fact that (a) there is no conclusive evidence of any tangible benefits coupled with (b) the deeply seated problems at Education (bad enough to warrant a full review) begs the question why time was wasted on a cosmetic issue like high school uniforms.
It doesn’t solve your concerns on equality (the 11+ is still here) and it’s not conclusively proven to increase esteem or performance.
Surely you must agree that there far more pressing matters to be addressing? That alone I think is sufficent to question how in touch the Department is.
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Phil
there is no chip! I was a college scholarship student, I have a close relative attending Grammar, and I’m very happy that my child is at LMDC and doing well there thank you!
On the other hand you evidently have prejudices.
So your argument is that scholarship families are proportionately able to better afford smart uniforms therefore this justifies that only those children deserve to wear them? Therefore the rest should be happy in casual wear because proportionately its all they can afford? Its about the kids not the families or money issues.
What a shame if children living at Les Genats/L’Aumone etc can’t afford the ballet and pony lessons, private maths & piano etc after school. Perhaps you could take up voluntary work to help if this situation bothers you.
Good debate and thank you for your viewpoint.
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“I’d have thought that it’s crystal clear that on average the parents of Grammar School and scholarship pupils at the colleges are wealthier than the parents of high school pupils.”
Phil| October 26, 2011 at 10:55 am
It’s not at all crystal clear to me, Phil. What is clearer is that such parents are probably better educated than the parents of the high school children and, thus, attach greater importance to educating their offspring. Money has often nothing to do with it. The result is, of course, that not only do the high schools get the eleven plus “losers”(not my word – the one the children use) but also their less educationally dedicated parents. Some children will thrive even in this less encouraging environment but it should be no surprise that many do not.
The idea of giving all our children an equal opportunity was wholeheartedly rejected by Guersey a decade ago. I wonder what will now be proposed to correct the current problem.
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Has anyone ever seen ParentA and Carol Steere in the same room?
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The absolute gubbins written by Parent A at 6.38am leads me to beleive that she either is Carol Steere, a friend writing in support or at the very least a like minded politician, such is the pomposity of those views.
I think you’ll find someone already has made a REAL hash of things, and I hope that if you do genuinely do have a child at LMDC he/she doesnt fall foul of the poor results that it churns out, still, as long as they are dressed nice!
Personally I think what causes the real social division is the difference between a decent education and a poor education, CS has been presiding over a gulf in educational quality for years, she is responsible for the division that will result in their lives.
Whilst you carry on worrying about blazers, the rest of us will worry about the actual quality of our childres education, does that sound familiar???
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Dave Haslam
Ok I agree the majority on this forum may not have confidence in CS but actually I do and so do the majority of the policy council. It would be ludicrous to form judgements before the review.
If you are using this site to canvas opinion I would suggest you stretch your research to at least the letters page for a slightly less ludicrous perspective.
What you are describing is the scenario which will follow when naughty Carol is replaced with someone efficient is it? Thanks for that reality check.
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Ted
If those parents were better-educated, then they are probably holding down a better job, which means more money, and theoretically more disposable income to spend on their childrens’ education etc. I think that’s indirectly what Phil and you are both saying. Its not directly down to money, but money is almost inevitably an influencing factor.
I agree with Phil. If I as a parent place value on education, then I’m not going to allow my young child to be hanging around estates and street corners at night instead of doing their homework. If I didn’t value my education then I probably couldn’t care less. So do I want my child to go to a school which is full of kids whose parents couldn’t care less, which unfortunately is predominantly the High schools? Of course not. I’m sorry, but that’s right at the hub of this whole education debate. Is it about class and gaps in the social class? Of course it is. No point in denying it.
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Paul Le Page
I’m sorry but I disagree with both a) and b)
a) there is no evidence that esteem and performance would not improve – its a good punt.
b) Far from being a cosmetic or vanity issue the uniforms are representative of the hierarchical structure which we are stuck with due to the 11+. It is clearly a social class marker like blue collars and white collars once were.
Do you think the Colleges and grammar will consider changing their uniform to sweatshirts? No? why not?
Its not about affordability clearly.
Questioning is always a good thing, with that at least I will agree with you :-)
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Raymond
I think it has been established that John Lamb and Carol Steer are actual people. Although I am an actual person I am neither of those two and clearly cannot be both.
I have never met, spoken to, emailed or kissed Carol Steere and I have no idea if she is on facebook as I am not.
I happen to be a vegetarian however I can confirm I am not Peter Roffey.
I will remain anonymous at the request of my child who is affected by this debate more than anyone posting on this forum.
The answer will be no as I don’t want you to be holding your breath.
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Steve-Oh
I see you do not respect my views but see fit to call me pompous. You are also wrong with all your assumptions which is not a good start.
However thank you for your good wishes for my child – yes all is well thanks apart from the sloppy joes which would not be permitted business attire in any office I know of, for some reason.
I totally agree there is a gulf in education but I feel this is due to the decision that Guernsey would retain the 11+ and so we have all been stuck with that.
Worrying will not enhance any quality of education, but at least the blazers might improve morale and aspirations.
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Dave Haslam – I agree with your thoughts but ParentA is perfectly entitled to repeatedly defend Deputy Steere is he/she so wishes. Let’s be honest, the rest of us are happy to repeatedly criticise Deputy Steere’s leadership.
I don’t agree with a lot of what s/he says but to hear another viewpoint is helpful to keep some balance in debate. It’s also useful to help us make sure our views are well thought out and not just impulsive populism.
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Paul Le Page
Well said and I welcome all opposing comments for that very reason.
GM
I think your broad generalisations are incorrect.
I consider myself a typical High School parent and care deeply about my child’s education. I try to get a balance between prioritising homework (of which I would like more) affordable activities and chill out time. I discourage hanging about in public but try to encourage independence in my child by allowing them to sometimes go out alone or with a friend(s) as I did as a child after school when I attended college.
I have no reason to believe that parents like me are the minority at High schools or any different at any other school. There is just as much chance, due to the 11+, that grammar and college parents allow their children to hang out on street corners or who care less about their children’s education.
To suggest that scholarship places go to kids whose parents care about their education and High schoolers parents don’t care is highly ill informed and insulting frankly. There is plenty of evidence that children develop at different rates, personal circumstances ( for example bereavement or illness) interfere with performance and so on. Furthermore there are plenty of academically gifted children at the high schools.
Your comments are clear evidence of stigma and the uniform debate seems to be the tip of the iceberg.
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In a previous forum I had tended to defend Deputy Steere’s position, but having now seen the email she circulated to all Deputies, mentioned in the article above:
‘Please pass on my comments to all PC members that I believe the CM has acted in a most discourteous manner to myself as Education Minister and, indeed, the council itself by sending such a statement as CM and not as an individual member,’ said Deputy Steere. ‘Most inappropriate – and I question whether I should continue to have confidence in his position.’
I agreed with her that the CM had spoken out of turn (my words) and having heard him initially, felt that it was political posturing on his part, rather than constructive comment.
But it now appears that political ambition by Deputy Steere has overtaken her stand on principal and she has succumbed to the political machine.
I now question her true motives in this whole affair.
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Paul
Dont get me wrong, I appreciate good debate as well as the next person, however the reason I stated that her defense is getting tiresome, is firstly because I get the distinct impression that her views are taken direct from CS’s policy book, certainly his/her last few posts have displayed that tendancy. So given that CS’s recent policies HAVE been debated to death on here, I just sigh when it seems we have to do it all again! If Parent A had some massive insight into the machinations of the ED and how he/she views her performance, then that would be good, merely sticking up for her policies isnt, because we’ve been down that road, a few times.
Parent A
As a parent, and friend of other parents with Children at LMDC and other schools I assure you I wouldnt be so blase about making comments about CS’s popularity if the only information I had was from an internet blogging site with limited viewership!
The situation I eloquently describe, is the head in sand mentality that suddenly everthing will be made alright by some blazers which is the avenue ED were taking us down.
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Parent A you have missed my point, if you accuse me of simply “worrying” about the quality of education, then I will accuse you of simply “worrying” about blazers.
Which would you say is more important? Give me a simple straightforward answer please, one or the other, quality of education, or blazers?
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Paul Le P / GM
If you’re looking for a politician to challenge Derek Neale, how about Jane Stephens. I seem to recall she did so quite successfully before she was a Deputy.
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Dave Haslam
Sorry to be tiresome due to my lateness to the party!
I have no doubt many others share your views and I cannot imagine who might dare to disagree with you in real life.
I think blazers are a small step towards equality perhaps, but certainly agree not everything will be made alright by them as you eloquently put it.
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Steve-O
I would say equality is the more important fundamental issue.
What is more important to you food or water?
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“Paul Le Page” aka ParentA – they say imitation is the gratest form of flattery, so I choose to take your recent assumption of my name as a compliment! ;-)
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Sam
I agree that politicians should be true to their principles but we have seen in the case of Matt Fallaize that putting principles above political motivations can be very disempowering.
As I understand it Lyndon Trott has two hats and they interchange, Carol Steere was quite rightly disappointed that he put the wrong hat on when he made his statement thus causing embarrassment. In a recent radio interview he discussed this.
The fact is none of us will ever know a politician’s true motives. Carol herself recently admitted in interview that they all have to play political games. I’m just hopeful that the review tells us who has been doing their job.
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Paul Le Page
I was trying to divert the backlash your way :-)
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ParentA
I expected you to duck my question to you, thanks for not disappointing.
Your politician-esque reply and off topic retort merely represent the gaps in your argument.
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Parent a
“In real life”
So you dont think this is real life then?
Wow, you are living in that happy fantasy land afterall ;-p
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Compare Paul le Page’s 8:28 am avatar with ParentA’s avatars throughout this thread – surely some mistake? I think we should be told
Parent A whoever – if you want to help / defend Carol – stop posting and let this thread die instead of praising her to the hilt
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ParentA
So your chum Carol states openly “that they all have to play political games”.
HAVE TO? Given that we don’t have party politics here I wonder why.
As a contributor towards their wages and resultant enviable pensions I don’t want these people playing games. I want them to get on with their jobs.
These games seem to be about raising profiles and protecting egoes.
Only Matt Fallaize has come out of this with any shred of dignity intact. Then again, he was one of those who had some in the first place.
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Steve-O
I could say blazers if it will make you happier :-)
But then I don’t think wearing them will be at the expense of education as you seem to suggest. I think it would right a wrong which has no place in a public service especially one which involves children.
Dave Haslam – I hope you are not a troll in real life ;-)
Jack
Yes it was me not Paul Le Page. I’m under no illusion that my views are influential! Feel free to ignore my comments.
Sugared Brazil Nut
They all HAVE to yes. If they don’t they will be stopped from doing their jobs.
Matt Fallaize came out of this full stop. Prime example.
On another thread it has been suggested that party politics thrives in Guernsey with The Guernsey Press in the role of ” Her majesty’s loyal opposition” What do you say to that idea?
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So Parent A and Paul Le Page are posting from the same email address? How careless!
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Dont worry Parent A I’m not trolling you, I dont have time in my life for that sort of thing.
We just disagree on Steere, no worries there, I’m sure we’re not the only ones. We both want the best for the islands children even if we disagree on how to get there.
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GM
come on now pay attention – do you really think Paul Le Page shares my views judging by what we have each written! Its an easy mistake to make as names and email addresses don’t need to correspond. Try it yourself!
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Sugared Brazil nut
I wonder why Jane Stephens hasn’t challenged Derek Neale/ the education department culture, indeed I wonder how this can be done since all ministers, even the education board appear to have been sitting on their hands about it since the Robinson review and the Jane Stephens dismissal affair. Deputy Sillars now seems to want to have a crack at “the rumours” so we will see how he gets on.
I just cannot see how this matter can have affected the GCSE results.
In the meantime innocent until proven guilty surely?
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ONLY MAYBE ;-)
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now GM and simon appear to be using the same email!
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Dave Haslam
Thanks for that and you are right. It will never be perfect but lets hope things improve.
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GM Please refer to ParentA’s reponse at. 6:35am today. You’ll also note that the Gravatar is different.
There is no conspiracy, sorry! Just a simple typo by ParentA! GP is it possible to correct this before ParentA gets unfairly tarnised by my brush and I get labelled a Steereite!
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Paul Le Page – The error has been corrected.
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I don’t understand what is so bad about making teenagers wear proper uniforms with blazers and ties so that they can have pride in their appearance. I do wear a blazer in school and it makes me feel proud of my appearance. It also creates a sense of community when everyone has the same uniform. With regards to the cost, a lot of people keep the same blazer, skirt and coat throughout their years at my school so that in the long run the cost is actually less thatn that of the high school uniforms which must get worn out very quickly.
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Parent A
The reason I asked the question in such a manner which required a straight answer was not because I beleive that providing Blazers would be at the expense of education per se. I just dont beleive they are a cure for the inherent problems in our education standards and I beleive the existence of Blazers in the education debate merely distracts from the real issues at stake, and I worry that this was why the original ideas was raised.
My opinion on this is that for every second CS spent thinking about Blazers, she should have been thinking about solving the standard of education. As it was obvious (or at least should have been for someone in her position) that a lot of children are getting short changed by the current system, she could see that, she had the info, she spent long enough trying to spin it. So in my opinion she should have been focusing all her efforts on rectifying that rather than throwing us off the scent with blazers, and I dont think the 2 issues are as mutually related as you do. A Truant or a Bully in a blazer is still a truant or a bully.
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Anonymous
As a parent I quite agree that the sweatshirts etc are a false economy and wear out quickly. Whether the same clothes will fit throughout school depends on the individual but I can see it could be possible.
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The GM who posted at 12.32pm today was not me!!!
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Surprised ParentF hasnt told you off for an unhealthy obsession in exam results. Smartly attired was no doubt objective number 121 that CS and her crew were intending to measure the performance of the schools
so thats
smartly dressed
healthy food
politically correct
lovely kids
not competitive as that might dent confidence if jonny comes second in the 100m dash
blah
blah
and at no 120 – literate (not that important)
and 121 – numerate
“Please vote for me as I love kids and this job” CS is a joke and so is ParentF
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Steve-O
Thanks for clarifying your thoughts I can see where you are coming from.
As Anonymous has suggested pride in appearance can have an effect on confidence and success and surely this must have been part of the strategy as well as having other benefits. And actually I think self esteem might have an effect on any truanting and bullying too.
To me blazers is a no brainer therefore no time wasted :-)
As for solving the standard of education, this would be extremely challenging to any genius surely, especially in Guernsey.
Maybe the plan was that things would unavoidably get worse before they could get better. Some of the specific factors for LMDC’s results seem to indicate that this has been the case.
Nevertheless, based on the benchmarks Guernsey has been using there seems to have been acceptable and rising standards overall although I am unsure to what degree all the figures would ordinarily be analysed.
I take your point that “she had the info” I don’t think anyone has denied that alarm bells went off when they saw the figures this year (which would have been after the blazers debate) but the board chose a course of action to address this appropriately and I for one can understand that decision.
When Carol Steere was appointed the UK had only just started using this benchmark. I suppose she might have tried to convince everyone that Guernsey should use this benchmark too but I’m not sure she would have been successful because Guernsey is unique and also because there is a strong argument that the benchmark is flawed.
Therefore isn’t it unreasonable to now be judging the whole system and all concerned against this one benchmark?
Clearly though the public are now placing great emphasis on higher grades in English and Maths and it doesn’t seem that C grade or higher has been considered critical before now. But grade D is still a pass at GCSE remember and that fact is getting lost in the over reactions.
I just don’t think any individual is culpable here but I could be wrong and await the review. Nevertheless yes we do need to keep on our toes because the international goal posts are moving all the time.
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These comments are covering a lot of different issues!
Uniforms? Be it sweat shirts, blazers or whatever every pupil should wear the same identifying the school they attend
As for exam results, that’s up to teachers at each and every school to address with themselves and the head teacher.
Placement at a new school after 11+ or what ever is a traumatic experience for many. They may have home problems already.
A difficult problem to solve! Some schools will always end up with “problem” pupils who do not have the ability to sit exams. So why are they (apparently) forced to do this?
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Jack
Grades D-G at GCSE are PASS rates.
There would be something very wrong with the classification system if children who are innumerate or illiterate could pass GCSE Maths and English exams.
It is even possible to fail Maths and English GCSE and still be literate and numerate.
Children who previously thought their GCSE passes were acceptable are now being judged by the likes of you that they have effectively failed.
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Soph
I think you are right about problem pupils. However what exactly is a problem pupil?
Any pupil who does not achieve 5 GCSE A*-C including Maths and English is considered by some to be a problem or at least part of a problem and thats what this debate comes down to.
I suppose the rationale is that every child is capable of passing exams (unless there are severe learning difficulties) and therefore they have a right to that opportunity and it is the challenge of the education system to overcome any obstacles to that.
One solution a) is that if exams prove too challenging for some individuals then alternative opportunities are also available. Another solution b) is that those who have larger obstacles to overcome should have extra resources available to them to enable them to pass the exams.
It seems that Guernsey has focused on a) but is now being criticised for not succeeding adequately at doing b).
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A problem pupil is one who abuses fellow students and inteferes with their learning not only by ongoing individual bullying and harassment but also by disrupting lessons at the detriment of entire class. They view other people as worthless… and if you think this has anything to do with low self esteem and will be changed by a simple blazer then you are wrong.
There is no link between low self esteem and bullying behaviour – the Baumeister study has long disputed this fact. Indeed it has proven that the opposite is the case “the highest self-esteem scores come from people in prison. They appear to have no respect for anyone else”. In fact the more narcissist and violent the criminal the greater the level of self esteem.
I am all for blazers in the name of equality but to say that it will improve self esteem and therefore performance is just wrong, as a fix it simply does not rate. Research shows that efforts which are solely aimed at improving self esteem have little value in academic improvement or preventing undesirable behaviour.
Paul le page is absolutely correct in saying that valuable time has been wasted on this issue at the detriment of solving the real problems facing our schools- systematic bullying of other pupils and restrictions of homework being two of the largest issues identified on these forums of late. Just because the pupils didn’t get the marks in the 11+, doesn’t mean they can’t work just as hard and thereby get to the same place in the end.
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ParentA asks if “Any pupil who does not achieve 5 GCSE A*-C including Maths and English is considered by some to be a problem or at least part of a problem and thats what this debate comes down to”.
You may well have a point here. Do the former secondary modern teachers see the less able as a problem rather than someone who needs help in learning
After all the CFE special needs staff manage to inspire the learning ethic into those who have been let down by their secondary schools.
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Rachel
I welcome your views.
I think there is merit in all you and Baumeister have to say and agree that blazers do not adequately address discipline issues but if equality is the only justification for blazers then that in itself is a very worthy reason. Any additional benefits would be a bonus and I can’t see them doing any harm whatsoever.
Bullying can occurr in all schools and in all walks of life and of course this can never be solved in the time it takes to debate blazers.
However I believe any specific bullying problems or homework policies are the responsibility of the individual schools rather than systemic and the head teachers are the experts appointed for applying their skills in these areas in accordance with the cultures of their schools.
I have made previous comments about lack of homework and have already seen pleasing developments from LMDC.
I totally agree with your last comment and there are many examples of very academically successful high school pupils past and present.
However as Soph pointed out earlier there will always be some who are not academically able or motivated and I’m not sure they should be forced to succeed in this way at the expense of developing their other attributes.
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Stephen John
You do like to heckle!
If any students wish for additional help as you describe, it is a problem any way you look at it. Either additional resources are required or there may be a teacher quality issue, it may be for personal reasons or perhaps disruption to schooling due to school closure.
My point was that Guernsey is being criticised for not pressurising students to pass exams under such circumstances however you have pointed out that there are readily available solutions to this problem such as CFE which seems to be an effective option for those students who are self motivated to take advantage of it. And as you say CFE has appropriate resources and skills to deal with this.
Problem solved!
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Parent A or Grange PR Person
So pleased with your seeing the CFE as a ready made solution for the failure of the secondary school system.
Surely it would be better for the schools to do their job. This would avoid CFE resources being wasted on remedial work. These resources could be used to further develop the island infrastructure as it did under the leadership of Charles Hunt and Bob MacDonald at the CFE and Mike Hutchings and John Stephenson at the Education Office.
Parent A. Your final comment “And as you say CFE has appropriate resources and skills to deal with this” begs the question as to why the secondary school trained teachers fail to deal with these secondary schooling issues. Or do they leave it to someone else and at a great cost, both to the individual and the taxpayer.
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Stephen John
We will have to agree to disagree with what constitutes a failure.
You seem to believe that exam success by age 16 is all that counts and I am merely putting forward an alternative view.
Who says remedial work as you put it is not part of CFE’s mandate? I don’t see this as a waste just an extension of the education offering. Surely this applies at Grammar and College too where students have opportunities to enhance their grades in the sixth form.
In answer to your question the High schools need to cater for the masses and cannot be all things to all people. Also bear in mind that students under 16 are forced to be at school by law and those that later attend CFE have chosen to do so.
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Parent A
Feeling the pressure are we?
Remedial work to rectify the failings of those best qualified to teach secondary school pupils was never part of the CFE remit. It was the duty of all teachers to provide the best learning for all their pupils, and not, as you seem to suggest let others do their work.
Given your belief in the comprehensive system of education I find your comment “In answer to your question the High schools need to cater for the masses and cannot be all things to all people” somewhat surprising.
I always thought comprehensives were meant to be all things to all people.
You seem to be confirming the view that the secondary teachers all too often leave the more difficult teaching to others, even though they, the secondary school teachers, are best qualified to that work.
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Stephen John
I welcome your comments as ever – I am here to debate.
If students are permitted to improve on their GCSE performance at CFE (which you describe as remedial work) this would imply it is part of the CFE remit. Please excuse me if I have misunderstood the situation.
A comprehensive system aims to be all things to all people as does a selective system. Any particular school is only a part of a system surely.
Most High school teachers (and comprehensive teachers) probably do not have capacity to ensure the majority of their students pass the GCSE exam and to offer extra help to all individuals. You describe this as the more difficult teaching I describe it as impossible but I could be wrong.
Not all students are willing to work towards exam goals as Soph implied earlier therefore extra resources within the high schools would perhaps be wasted. The CFE caters only for those who want further help and I can understand this rationale.
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Parent A
Just to make things clear. My concern is why so many of those who struggle with basic literacy and numeracy whilst at the Secondary Schools, often find the barriers to learning disappear when they leave the school system.
Perhaps your comment of difficult teaching is the answer. If it is then the quality of teaching in the High Schools needs urgent examination. It is part of the secondary teachers job to teach all levels. Others can do it, so why not the trained secondary teachers?
What is the Grange PR response to that?
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stephen john,
do you have any data to back up your statement that the cfe works wonders with students who have difficulty with maths and english.
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Stephen John
I understand your concern, I’m just not sure its valid.
I, like you, will await the Grange response following the review.
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Kevin
I am unable to see your full post, just the summary.
Getting some students to show some competence in basic literacy and numeracy is hardly working wonders.
As long as 20 years ago there were apprentice electricians who when giving a basic skills test could not add a half and a quarter. Within a couple of weeks they were showing considerable improvement.
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Stephen John
I can see where you are coming from with your answer to Kevin but schools need to follow a curriculum timetable which CFE does not and so each teacher gets say a half hour slot to teach a class of up to say 30 pupils. This system relies on pupils paying attention, doing homework and parental support with problems. At LMDC I gather teachers give up their personal time to put on extra revision classes etc. What additional attention do you feel school teachers should give to individual cases?
Policy solutions would be extra English and Maths classes which would narrow the school curriculum or additional teaching resources to make class sizes smaller but would still entail pupil/parent cooperation, both of these I am guessing are the solutions utilised at CFE.
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Parent A asks me “What additional attention do you feel school teachers should give to individual cases?”
I’m not asking for additional attention just that the school’s do the job they are paid to do.
Or, is it now Education policy to ignore those who struggle whilst in the schools?
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Stephen John
I know from first hand experience that those who struggle are not ignored in schools, I hope thats reassuring to you.
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