Knife threat met criteria for armed officers – police chief
Saturday 3rd December 2011, 2:29PM GMT.
Chief of police Patrick Rice will be talking at the Livings Streets AGM and 10th anniversary tonight.
THE chief of police has defended a decision to send armed officers to an incident where a woman threatened to harm herself with a knife.
In an email received by all deputies, Patrick Rice (pictured) said the fact there was a potentially lethal weapon involved and a threat to someone’s life meant the incident met the nationally recognised criteria for sending in armed police.
The decision to send in a firearms team has been criticised by some islanders who have called it heavy-handed and dangerous.
‘Incidents of this nature when the information is not fully available or the situation is unclear makes them complex to manage and require a high degree of professional judgement,’ said Mr Rice in the email, a copy of which was obtained by the Guernsey Press. ‘On this occasion, an immediate response was required, an operational decision was made to deploy armed officers.’
- To read Guernsey Press stories in full click here for subscription details. Individual editions are now available online.
Tuesday 18 June
- Condor wants security to buy £70m. ships
- Your States - St Peter Port South
- GP 200 LOOKback - St Peter Port Harbour
- CGi Technology Challenge
- Sport - Priaulx's problems continue
Campaigns
Voice For Victims
Voice for Victims is a campaign aimed at promoting the rights of those affected by child sexual abuse.
This is Guernsey
Guernsey Press
Useful Links
By nationally recognised what nation is he talking about.
Report abuse
So the Press had to collate their report from a leaked e-mail
So much for Deputy Quin’s promise that the Chief officer would speak to all the media last week.That promise killed off any debate on the Sunday phone in .. so I suppose it served it’s purpose
It looks like we will have to put up with more of the same S.A.S tactics as this minor domestic incident ‘met the nationally recognised criteria for sending in armed police’
Report abuse
Why is Mr Rice falling over backwards ?
Is he sleepy, or just knocked out by the criticism ?
Report abuse
superb comment, probably the best one of 2011
Report abuse
So, was anyone expecting anything different coming from this source?
I guess we are all supposed to accept this man`s word that there was no other alternative.
I, among others still think the threat is there for some innocent person to be severely injured or even killed if these tactics aren`t restrained NOW.
There are many TV programmes that show ordinary patrol or beat officers being sent to reported incidents where knives or firearms are present and dealing with the situation before armed response teams are sent in.
These are in large cities where drugs and crime are extreme and with populations of millions not tens of thousands.
If armed response is not neccessary there then why is it here?
Is it your father, mother, sister or brother that is going to be the first innocent victim?
Don`t accept one man`s word that this is the only way. IT ISN`T.
Report abuse
Does anyone remember the incident in Sgt Trotter’s day when our legendary copper went to Les Beaucamps School to disarm a silly youth on the roof of the school who was brandishing an airgun? I think he may have been peppered for his trouble but I stand to be corrected.
Flash forward to the present day. If something like that were to happen next week the response would make Die Hard III look like a tea party. If a woman with a kitchen knife demands a dozen armed police a youth with an airgun would need at least 100 armed officers plus a couple of helicopters and said unfortunate youth probably would end up in a body bag.
Report abuse
Ray is right, I think we were all waiting for a statement from Mr Rice rather than a leaked email to the Press, he had obviously contacted all the Deputies with an explanation. With the amount of public interest in this, I would of expected at least his own statement to the press.
Having now read “ The manual of Guidance on the management, command and deployment of Armed officers”, 2010 (apparently latest version). If followed to the letter, which apparently is the intention, it has become clear that the public in Guernsey are in for an ever increasing display of armed Police officers on the streets.
The Manual can be read here:
http://www.npia.police.uk/en/docs/Firearms_06.08.10_locked.pdf
No one is saying that we don’t want highly trained police capable of protecting both themselves and the Public, that is not in question as far as I am concerned. I think the general line of thought above is, neither do we want armed police running around the streets as a matter of routine rather than the exception. Society has changed to a certain extent over the years and the Police force needs to keep up with the times, but that doesn’t mean large open displays of armed force out of proportion with the incident. That is, in my opinion, out of place in 99% of incidents in Guernsey.
‘Sense of proportion’. On the face of it this incident appears to have lacked a ‘proportionate response’ and this trend must not be allowed to become the routine way Police react to every minor incident. It actually shows a lack of understanding of the society and local community it is operating in and their expectations.
Report abuse
Thanks, Sam, for your pointer to the guidance manual. Unfortunately, I failed to find the section referring to the need for the press to be notified of forthcoming operations so that they can be on hand to photograph the armed response team deploying.
Report abuse
I think that section is in the appendix, sub section P. Also I have revisited said photo and have two questions.
1. Why do our brave boys with guns look like they have been called out in the middle of an informal darts match? There are plain clothes and just plain scruffy. I can not remember Columbo ever carrying a gun.
2. How are you supposed to slide over the bonnet of a car that high?
Report abuse
“By nationally recognised what nation is he talking about.”
Exactly. Just because one country introduces excessive response at great cost (thereby having to introduce large cuts etc.. because of overspend), why does Guernsey have to introduce this high expenditure culture!!
Report abuse
They say there was a potentially a lethal weapon involved. Well a newspaper is a potentially lethal weapon in the right hands.
She was treatening to harm herself what were they going to do spray her with a hail of bullets before she had the chance.
Report abuse
Anyway are not the police supposed to be able to disarm a person with a knife or are their arms so tired from all the red tape and paperwork.
Report abuse
Firestorm, if it was your daily job, would you wade in with no protection to someone with a knife and take them down… people have families to go back to and they deal with potentially dangerous situations like this daily.
Its deffinatly not a case of the officers acting the hero’s, its a job!
Report abuse
Yes I would as I would not have taken the job in the first place If I was not ready to serve, protect and deal with potentially dangerous situation’s. Plus officers wading in with whole bunch of guns can also end up turning a small situation into a deadly one.
Report abuse
Do you know anything about police training? From this comment i believe not. Do you think every officer is superman? They’re not. They are just normal human beings like you and me. They too feel emotions and get scared like everyone else. Do you know exactly how these situations are dealt with by firearms officers? No.
Report abuse
Martino,
I was at that incident when Trotter was shot, the gun was a double barrel twelve bore shotgun, it had been discharged by the offender prior to police arrival. It was fired at the Police car as it came along the Beaucamp road and the offender made his way into the playground. Trotter arrived on the scene in a panda car, he knew the offender and drove into the playground intending to speak to him, as he approached the offender he was shot in the chest, being saved by his thick police jacket, tobacco tin,Police notebook and body warmer that he wore underneath his police jacket. Pellets penetrated his chest and passed through his ears, but he made a full recovery. There was no firearms section in those days, the only firearms held by the police were those war relics that had been handed in. The offender then climbed onto a flat roof of the school building. The Chief of police arrived on the scene and negotiated with the offender who eventually gave up his gun and was arrested.That’s the skeleton outline of the situation.
I do not intend to anylyse that situation, except to say that you may well be right in that the youngster in this day and age could end up being shot by police. He had been discharging the weapon and there was no doubt he was a danger to the public and police. He had the high ground and a loaded weapon and he’d shot a policeman.
In those days all we had was negotiation and the thought of shooting him was probably furthest from our mind.It was an old fashioned approach which eventually worked.
There are large books now guiding Chief police officers how to react to armed situations, initiative has for the most part gone out of the window, health and safety dictate as to who can do what and when and if the police officer perceives he is in danger or a member of the public is in danger, he can pull the trigger, albeit he will have to answer for it after.
I do worry that like others on the previous forum have stated that we will get too much into the habit of sending out firearms teams and the police responses will not be proportionate to the incidents and the Police will in fact elevate the public perception of violence in society.
Report abuse
Thanks a lot for that Retired Police Officer. I’m in my 50s and was a youth myself at the time of the Trotter incident. It became the stuff of legend and I’m grateful now to know what really happened. Is there any chance you could come out of retirement? I think you speak for the vast majority of islanders with your final paragraph.
Report abuse
So we have, according to saturday’s press report, ” a report from a north west of england ambulance service about a woman with a knife”.
which was found to be a false alarm!
Does anyone else, apart from me, think this has maybe been a training exercise gone badle wrong? as mr Rice has declined to comment oy the episode!
Maybe minister Mahy and dep minister Quinn should be asking questions on their newly found chief ??
Report abuse
A farce from a force that is rapidly headed for a disaster if the “rambo” tactics continue. Worrying, very worrying.
Report abuse
I am sure that Mr Rice is right, situations of this type do require ‘a high degree of professional judgement’. Its just that the wrong judgement was made this time. Perhaps we can learn from the experience and make a better judgement next time.
Report abuse
If the police are guided primarily by the ‘nationally recognised criteria for sending in armed police’ – then it is clear they intend to take Guernsey down the path already well travelled by the UK. DISASTEROUS. I live in London – where I now no longer trust the police to behave in a measured, considered way – or even to listen. Their focus is on their own safety, and targets, and certainly not on the safety and quality of life of the people they are paid to protect.
This attitude of the police has had a profound effect on the experience of living in the UK. Please don’t let it happen to Guernsey as well. Once you set off down this path – it is virtually impossible to roll back its consequences: being FEAR. If you can no longer trust the police, to whom do you turn when violence rears its head?
Report abuse
Can you imagine the morale sapping p… taking the ordinary PC on the beat is having to put up with on a Friday and Saturday night over this latest farcical show of strength?
Report abuse
Could Mr Rice inform us what the nationally recognised criteria are for tipping off the local newspaper’s photographer?
Report abuse
So why was North West Ambulance even involved. If I phone 999 I expect to speak to a Guernsey based emergency operator.
Report abuse
Just because ‘the incident met nationally recognised criteria’ does not mean that little old Guernsey, a unique place in many ways, has to slavishly follow some UK based reaction to an incident
Whatever happened to the local common sense approach, appropriate to us, not some faceless UK criteria?
Report abuse
I’m sorry but I still believe that if this person was in the state of mind that she was threatening to self-harm, the only threat was to herself.
Regardless of what the Chief says, sending an armed response unit out would tip me over the edge and make me harm myself – goodness knows how it would have made her feel.
There is no way they can justify engaging the armed response unit in cases such as this.
Report abuse
Did anyone really expect an admission of a mistake being made, let alone an apology?
Cyril Eley (an ex chief from the 60s/70s) must be turning in his grave at what policing has become in this island. Gone are the old school coppers who were well known and respected in the community, to be replaced by adrenaline junkies in bulletproof vests and armoured vehicles just looking for the excuse to pull the trigger.
Report abuse
In the old days, you could get a clip on the ear from a copper or a teacher. You were also scared of your parents finding out.
Some kids are now very aware of the law, and push their luck, they lack any respect for anyone not just the police.
I hardly think you are going to find trigger happy police in Guernsey, its the punch happy kids who can be a problem.
Report abuse
the police get a phone call,person with knife,unstable,crowded supermarket and bridge shopping centre up the road.person runs into market stabs lots of people to death.stop moaning about over kill,one of the deaths could could be a relation of yours think what happened in jersey
Report abuse
I must be mistaken, I thought the incident in Jersey was of the domestic variety, I didn’t realise the guy had stabbed the victims in the supermarket or the middle of St Helier’s shopping district. I’ll pay more attention in future……..either that or just ignore ridiculous sensationalist claptrap on this forum.
Report abuse
What’s wrong with you people, just because some people complain you always have to compare it to Jersey, get a life!
Report abuse
@milly
The fear of anything justifies everything nowadays.
To a fair percentage of ‘normal people, I won’t say ‘the majority’ because I just don’t know, Mr Rice, his new Beemers and paramilitiary type cops are looking a bit silly.
Cops with sub machine guns piling out of Motorway style BMWs should not be the norm.
Mr Rice is starting to appear as a local laughing stock.
Report abuse
Spot on Neil, although I suspect that the laughter will stop when (not if) someone is injured or even kileed by these over-reacting armed-to-the-teeth coppers.
Report abuse
Excellent cartoon in today’s Press from Tom Waterman (Your name is now on the list Mr W )
Report abuse
The only way arguments on this forum are credible are if they are constructive and stick to the known facts.
Milly your explaination no way matches the apparent way this incident was reported.
Neil, I don’t believe there were any machine guns on show, unless things have changed even your so called machine guns were used in single shot mode by police (Heckler & Koch MP5). The firearm in the Press picture was a baton round gun.
We all want our police to be highly trained in all aspects of their job, but I think what most are saying in different ways, we would prefer to see a more proportionate response to incidents, taking into consideration that this is Guernsey, not London or manchester.
I know I am repeating myself but I do believe that if this apparent over reaction to what was more of a domestic incident, shows a lack of understanding of the local society we live in.
Mr Rice appears to want to follow the ACPO standard to the letter without placing his own local interpretation to suit local circumstances. That will in turn attract more and more local critisism when armed reaction teams become the norm, rather than the exception.
More community police on the streets mixing with the local public and gaining their confidence will go 100 times further than armed reaction teams appearing at every minor incident.
Report abuse
Oh dear some very poorly informed people on here, a knife in many ways is more dangrous then a gun- they take no training to use and never run out of ammo if you go up against a Knife even with a baton you WILL get cut if your lucky it won’t be any of the big arteries in your neck,arms or legs-the areas not covered by the vest that cause you to die very quickly
before anyone suggests a hollywood style shoot them in the leg/arm doesn’t work studies have been done and you need to hit centre mass to cause as much shock to the CNS and shut the body down
as for the BMWs they’re one of the few vehicles able to carry the weight of the armour package
Report abuse
You certainly haven’t read the above posts properly if this comment is anything to go by. We are talking about 10 or a dozen armed police going in to sort out a ‘domestic’ involving a woman who may or may not have been carrying a knife. The sort of incident that has been happening in Guernsey for time immemorial. It was a totally disproportionate response. Sure, an armed squad of officers might be necessary to deal with a mad man with a knife running amok in a public place – but NOT to deal with a minor domestic incident.
Report abuse
There was a good report on Newsnight last night about the recent riots.
It was inteteresting that several rioters interviewed stated that the reason for rioting wasn’t to loot shops, rather it was to attack the police and the government for whom many of society have no respect whatsoever. Comments like “politicians can steal and bankers can steal and nothing or next to nothing happens to them, whereas the poorer people get stopped and searched on a regular basis and get nicked for the slightest offecnce”. Also interesting that 80% of them thought there would be more riots in the future.
Of course the ex-plod and Tory MP didn’t beleive a word of it, to them it was all down to “criminals” acting in a criminal manner. Their argument was as dumb as the recent deployment of the rapid response unit.
Report abuse
Stevie,
I agree with martino, you haven’t read all the arguments properly.
Phil,
I agree with you, society is becoming dissatisfied and will continue to do so whilst Governments make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Most of us are totally disillusioned with the banking sector and high bonuses and I doubt many people trust it any more. Guernsey’s latest lot of taxes will hit the middle and low earners again and make them even more unhappy with their lot.
Out of proportion police responses to minor domestic incidents can only fuel the growing bad feeling and they need to take a reality check on the way they react in future.
Report abuse
Sam
“Neil, I don’t believe there were any machine guns on show, unless things have changed even your so called machine guns….”
I’m no expert but it looked like one of those guns that the UK police have around their necks in airports. The bore being too small to discharge what I understand to be a baton round.
I was with you until you drifted into the social comment about police perception; I don’t beleive in a survey of me and my contemporaries they have a particulalry bad rapport with the public; but running around responding to domestics tooled up like US SWAT teams just isn’t smart. Single shot Heckler and whatever, submachine guns or bazookas.
Anyway, as a member of public, it’s about perception. Guernsey does not do that kind of ‘security’.
Report abuse
I have read and understood all your comments, the point I was trying to make is the “overreaction” of sending armed officers to “just a knife” you don’t seem to understand how lethal a knife is and how easy they are to get and use – if your a member of a gym or martial arts club wear a white tshirt and have your opponent use a markerpen as a knife, count to ten while trying to disarm them you’ll be surprised how much they “cut” you in just 10 seconds then ask yourself why police respond in the wa the did.
the only weapon I’ve seen deployed is one photo of a HK69A1 (baton gun)a less lethal option not a MP5 as has been suggested by some posters
Report abuse
Stevie
I’d stop digging if I were you. Every single domestic incident that takes places inside the home potentially involves the use of knives, do you suggest sending out teams of armed-to-the-teeth coppers to all of them?
Your comment about martial arts experts is as invalid as the one someone else made about the recent incident in Jersey, there is absolutely no comparison with the non-incident that took place over here. Unless of course the Highlands Ambulance service received a report about a female ninja on the loose in St Sampsons, which they then relayed to the Shetland Islands ambulance service who in turn passed it on to the Guernsey 999 desk. It’s a possibility I suppose……..
Report abuse
Its all just a show of strength to make us all believe the local police will be there in an instant to save us or more importantly protect the wealth of Jensen Button or the likes.
Question, how many unexplained deaths in the island this year?
Report abuse
……Most of wich have been suicide which the police cannot help…
Report abuse
Clearly off balance..
Report abuse
in my honest opinion ANY call specifically mentioning a person armed(knife or gun) should at minimum require a TASER response if the ARV/TFU are the only officers trained in the use of TASER then they should be deployed
I’ve seen firsthand what a “nice little old lady” can do with a carving knife or the damage a stanley knife has done to a schoolboys face
when the public triple9 it miscommunications often occur, two school kids pushing each other at a bus stop is reported as “a gang of lads armed with knifes” yet I’ve turned upto a “criminal damage/broken window” to find it was a bloke running the length of the street with a meat clever smashing anything he can because his wifes left him
I suspect in this case it was reported that a woman was armed with a knife threating herself or others, force control room would’ve deployed assets in line with the information given
Report abuse
Sorry Stevie, you are sounding like one of the over reactionary types that do not sum up the situation and act in a proportionate manner. Its not the fact that we don’t want police to act in a manner that protects both themselves and the public, what most on this forum are saying is that reaction has to be proportionate to the incident and two armed support teams for a woman who was (I believe) reported to be about to cause herself damage with a knife, appears on the face of it to be total overreaction.
I also realise that police now have to react under guidelines issued by ACPO and those are interpreted by Chief officers, taking into consideration the local environment they work in (normally), so its all down to the forces standing orders for this type of situation.
I did do it for thirty years and although I have been out of it for a while, do understand all the implications.
Report abuse
Stevie, I’m all for protecting you guys adequately from little old ladies who might carve up policemen instead of the Sunday joint. Not one poster here has said they expect unprotected or unarmed police offers to confront dangerous people. But can you not see the danger arising from carloads of heavily armed officers regularly driving at speed to the scene of relatively trivial incidents? One armed officer might improve safety, 12-15 is an accident waiting to happen. Innocent people will get killed as they have been in the UK from shooting, dangerous driving or ‘heavy mob’ induced heart attacks. After more deaths perhaps ‘following the manual’ might get tempered with some common sense.
Report abuse
I think the justifiable response from the UK police manual would be to drive down the bridge, fire a tear gas canister into the room, then tell her to come out with hands up, if she hasnt repsonded in 30 seconds, then fire 3 warning shots through the window, 10 more seconds, fire a high explosive incendiary round from a shoulder lancher into the room, after another 30 seconds if she still hasnt come out, then I think we then arrive at the uncomforatble question of whether to use force or not.
Report abuse
1. Was anybody injured-NO
2. Was the matter resolved peacefully-YES
3. How many people have been shot by overzealous Police officers?-NONE.
Report abuse
Mugwai
And the same result would have happened if it had been attended by a PC on a pushbike
Report abuse
Love the reasoning… a bit like;
Lisa: Dad, what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Uh-huh, and how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn’t work. It’s just a stupid rock.
Homer: I see.
Lisa: But you don’t see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I’d like to buy your rock.
Report abuse
Mugwai,
So your recommending the same turnout for every domestic incident where a weapon is mentioned in the initial call?
Report abuse
How many hours were spent after this incident in Police time in report writing,and debriefing?
How much did it cost?
How many man hours were wasted, when those officers could have been more gainfully employed by walking the beat?
Report abuse
Can anyone answer Eddie41 question
How many unexplained deaths this year?
Report abuse
A porcovative insight! Just what we need!
Report abuse