Exporting waste is preferred option in PSD’s £180m. plan
Friday 13th January 2012, 2:30PM GMT.
HOUSEHOLDS could end up paying £180 a year as part of proposals for a new £180m. waste strategy.
The strategy, which is outlined in the February Billet, would see waste exported for heat treatment off-island to Jersey or potentially another jurisdiction.
It also focuses on waste minimisation and increased recycling by proposing kerbside collections for both dry recyclables and food waste.
There will be a new recycling target of 70% by 2025, with interim targets between now and then. In 2010, between 40 and 45% of household and commercial waste was recycled.
Households currently pay an average of £100 a year but under the proposals that could increase by £80.
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This is an excellent solution – bill joe public another £80 each and every year!!!
As we live on an island, and we could always do with more room, can we not reclaim land from the sea by using waste? Even if the land was only to create a green area.
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I recycle. I do my best to avoid non-recyclable packaging. I buy my fruit and veg “loose”. It takes me 3 or 4 weeks to fill a general refuse sack. Now my reward is to get hammered with more taxation. I’m tempted not to bother.
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Debris Diver
Like you I currently put out about one black sack per month … 12 sacks per year at £180 is £15 a sack .. almost worth thinking of the fly tipping alternative
Bring on ‘special’ identifiable States issued refuse sacks at £2 .. £3 each for goodness sake
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Your calculation has got me thinking, Ray. For under £15 you could post your sack to Jersey. This would achieve 3 objectives:
1. We get rid of our rubbish.
2. Jersey can fuel their incinerator.
3. Guernsey Post will be kept busy – the Muck Mail making up for any loss of trade when LVCR comes to an end.
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Is “heat treatment” the new PC name for burning it??
Why don’t the States just issue us all with one of those Garden incinerator bins …… then we can “Heat treat” our own waste.
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If apparently Jersey NEED the extra waste to run their incinerator efficiently should they not be paying us for our waste ? Or maybe their is a cheaper option in the UK
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I’d like to see the numbers for this proposal as the cynic in me might suggests the €80 extra per household may well be diverted into filling the financial black hole.
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What a good way to kill peoples interest in recycling!
Our island is giving away millons of pounds a year in taxation to companies yet the individual is constantly being pounded with yet more financial demands – WHERE WILL IT END??
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Disposing of waste is a cost element of any purchase, and does increase the overal cost of each item. It is unfortunate that whether you put one bag out or 6 the cost is the same for both households. The aim long term should be to drive down the volume going for disposal so hopefully the costs that all are charged will also go down.
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Guern abroad
Brain now engaged! You are right of course..if I am going to be charged £180 per year it doesn’t matter if I put out one sack a month (@ £15) or my Vale parish ‘allowance’of two sacks a week (104 sacks @ £1.73 each)
St Sampsons I believe allow four black sacks per week in two collections (208 sacks @87p each)
Although the plan to charge by property size is undoubtedly the easiest way for PSD to gather in this new stealth tax it looks like fairness wasn’t a high priority in the discussions
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Ray & Guern Abroad.
For this new strategy to work, you are both right, it is crucial that a “pay as you throw’ system is adopted. It is in the proposals I think….. we just need to make sure that the Deputies vote for it.
I also think that waste and recycling collections will need to be arranged on an island-wide basis as this would bring costs down and would be more efficient.
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I recycle a huge percentage of my waste, I never put a black bag out and I don’t see why I should pay as much as the lazy sods who chuck away tonnes of rubbish, including all the recyclables. It should be a pay as you throw system – the more you put out for export to Jersey the more you should pay. It’s totally unfair otherwise.
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Martino, I totally agree it should be pay as you throw. In Canada they charge you x amount to buy tags for your bin bags. No tags your rubbish is opened, if you have left any evidence of where you live you face a heavy fine. Why should we recycle and pay over the odds for nothing. There must be some clever people somewhere who can suggest something a little better than everyone just pays an equal share.
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There was a statement in the pull-out that said payment by weight may be used. As the comments above indicate, I think it is crucial that this is incorporated in the strategy, otherwise people will not bother to recycle. However, if you have to pay for each black bag put out there will be an incentive to make sure no recyclates go in it.
It is not clear from the article to what period the figure of £180m refers, but it is worth reminding people that Suez would have cost £250m over its lifetime.
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The plot thickens!!!!!!!!!……I look forward to reading the next installment
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If one thinks rationately about all this talk (blah blah)
One simple solution will soon be available to all Islanders.,
Oh yes! People who think of the Island and not their bank balance,
It’s obvious the present lot are in it for themselves,
There is talk of reclamation from the sea: That is the very best Idea.
I guarantee, if a new marina was needed there would be no hesitaion in “Land recovery”
So long as we have these people who are determined to line their own pockets, on the backs of Islanders so it will go on.
Have no mercy with the next ELECTIONS.
If elected, then fall into the same routine as of now; then legislation should be brought in to sack the offending person/S.
No more nonsense, time to get tough, they want to rule, then follow the laws of our ancestors.
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Islander,
Land recovery already takes place with inert materials. However, I guarantee hell will freeze over before anyone (except you perhaps) agree to bulldozing mixed waste into the sea, new marina or not.
In fact the only part of your post I can agree with is the need for rational thought, and (at last!) PSD have given rational thought to how to manage our waste,
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I would urge everyone to read the ‘WasteMatters’ that came out with yesterdays Press. It explains the proposal very well and I think is excellent.
As has been said above, it states that:
‘polluter pays options where individuals pay more for producing more waste requiring disposal’
…….will be considered as a way of increasing recycling rates. We all need to ensure that that is indeed what happens.
We also need to remember, that recycling does bear a cost. It’s less than disposal but is still a cost.
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I read it too and was very encouraged by the content.
Hopefuly there will be action and not procastination in seeing many of the included statements through.
Particlarily interested in puting pressure back on suppliers to dipose of the packaging that their goods come in.
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I went along to one of the waste presentations when the Suez plan was still on the cards. At the meeting the question of exporting to Jersey was raised and the resounding answer from PSD was that it was not possible due to the EU waste directive regulations and that on island treatment was the only answer.
How things change, a little more investigation could have saved us the millions spend on the Suez proposal and we would be years ahead in resolving the waste issue.
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One solution has already been suggested to help pay for the waste collection, and that is to use only dustbin bags supplied by the States (at say 50p each) and fines for those who fail to comply.
Before this Island become overpopulated by people and cars,and when few goods were wrapped in paper, let alone plastic, we would have a small bonfire once a week.Problem solved! Now we have the ‘Save the world’ brigade, at enormous expense,when even the small efforts we all do to reduce waste and pollution, are cancelled in a moment every time a Volcano erupts somewhere.
Send as much as we can to Jersey, but make sure they pay us a reasonable amount for the privilege.
£180 million? Are you insane?
£180 million? Are you insane ?
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AJ
Did you support the Suez proposal? This one is cheaper.
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Recycling currently costs around £67 a tonne. Putting stuff into Mont Cuet landfill is charged at around £136 a tonne. Suez was going to cost around £200 per tonne.
So, as long as PSD do charge people by the weight of what they put out for disposal, then every person has a large degree of control over how much it will cost them.
Clearly if we produced no waste the cost of dealing with it would be nil. Obviously that is not going to happen, but it is amazing how much it is possible to reduce waste.
At present, on average, every woman, man and child sent 4kg of waste to Mont Cuet every week – 16kg for an average family of 4.
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Rocquaine!
Thank you for your reply, of course I agree with you.
Now on my previous note, you may think it strange that I agree with you.
Well the reason is because My note did what I wished it to do…
For people to come forward with ideas…It’s no use ridiculing suggestions without having an alternative…
Of course I do not wish to contaminate the shore line.. Of course human waste does that already
Yet the Americans had some fine ideas, and remember America, strangely enough is bigger than Guernsey.
However, and whatever, a solution must be found, and the solution is on our Island
The Burhou tower would make a fine incinerator.
It just sits there begging to become useful.
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Surely we should be studying places such as the Isle of White,Anglesy,and include those on the french coast and any other Island with a similar problem to ours.Not much point in comparing us with Basingstoke, which is 50 miles from the nearest coast, with a population nearing a million is there?
NO (roquaine)I was definately not in favour of Suez but I was very interested in the plan put forward by Rod Brouard and Co. What has happened to that idea?
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AJ,
Rodney Brouard’s autoclave proposal was one of the 12 or so evaluated during the workshop process. While I am not in entire agreement with some of the scoring methods used during that process, his proposal did score quite poorly and for good reason.
Nevertheless, I admire Mr. Brouard. It is worth noting that if the States had not come up with the appalling Suez scheme, Mr. Brouard would not have countered it with his autoclave. Moreover, Mr. Brouard’s first proposal, before the autoclave, was export to Jersey!
Finally, the anti-incinerator brigade did study the Isle of Man and that provided more evidence, were it needed, of the wrongness of a mass-burn incinerator.
Islander,
I think you mean Brehon Tower. Words fail me.
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Can some one point me to where the Billet talks about what happens to the recyclates ??
I’ve skimmed through it but nowhere (that I can find) does it state where these piles of aluminium and tin cans, stacks of paper, plastics etc will actually go.
I’m assuming that they will go to private waste operators ? who then ship and sell the resulting recyclates ? Is this the economically best option for the island or are the private companies making profit at the expense of taxpayers ?
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It is a good point Jamie. One hopes that (future) contracts will be keenly negotiated. I am sure the private companies are making profit – the question is, is it excessive profit?
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I don’t mind private companies making a reasonable profit where it isn’t deemed worth while for the states to invest in the required infrastructure.
The thing that narks me is that there is nothing (that i can find) in the Billet that even discusses the value of recyclates or how they will be disposed of. No comparison of selling / paying local private companies to handle it vs states setting up to ship and sell them. Will they be sold to the highest bidder at the time ?
If there is any resale value in the recyclates, why aren’t there figures in the Billet ofsetting the £9m pa ?
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Rocquaine:
Of course you are either amused or at a loss to answer a thoughtful Idea.
That tower stands there lonely and discarded, because it’s a bit of History.
Castle Cornet was also History, yet has become a much valued place, as id Fort Grey. Other Forts could be used usefully if we had a States with an ounce of Ideas.
the idea of an incinerator isn’t so daft if you check it out. a fast tidal run of the sea to take away any ash remains.
When a suggestion arises so many ridicule them.
If it was left to the people of Guernsey, we would find a solution. but present interfering by non Islanders, has caused much disillusionment
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I’m neither amused or at a loss.
Incinerating waste merely turns it into airborne pollution and ash residue, which is also toxic.
If we were minded to accept your scenario, which now has the refinement of disposing the ash into the sea, we may as well cut out the middleman and just bulldoze the raw waste off the jetty. Which, I remember, is where you started.
I would be astounded if you could get more than half a dozen signatures supporting the idea of turning Brehon Tower into an incinerator. I really don’t think the parallel of Castle Cornet is a valid one.
Fortunately, we have moved on.
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As a matter of interest, now we’ve decided it’s OK to pump our poo into the sea, will we be obliged to continue paying the additional charges for the ‘investigation’ into whether we should do so or not?
Surely now that debacle is over those funds could be restructured and redirected towards this lastest move on waste, thus ensuring the average householder isn’t quite so out of pocket?
Or is that all way too common sense for our States to consider?
(like I didn’t know the answers to the above…!!!!)
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So Guerns froth at the mouth and wave their pitchforks in the air at the suggestion we build our own incinerator, and then work themselves up into another frenzy about shipping it away as well. So come on bright sparks what the hell else are we supposed to do with it? We can’t make it vanish into thin air. We’ve got two options, pick one and stop moaning.
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We need to chose the option that allows us to continue to drive down the amount of residual waste that we generate so that over time the negative aspect of getting rid of it diminishes as the quantity reduces.
That means the export option. And that is the option that PSD are putting forward as their preference.
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Yes Rosie, more recycling does need to be encouraged but charging people more money to dispose of residual waste is not likely to achieve a larger recycling percentage.
I suspect the attitude will be ‘I’m paying more money (again)so why should I bother?’
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If people have to pay according to how much black bag rubbish they put out then surely there is the incentive not to put recyclables in the black bag?
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Sorry Kevin….. I’m not following your logic. You can have your recycling collected from your doorstep at no extra cost, or you can put it in with your residual waste and pay extra. Why would people want to pay extra?
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rosie/rocquaine,
If we have to pay according to the amount of residual waste we dump then yes, there will still be an incentive to recycle.
However I see nothing in the article above that suggests we will be charged according to the amount of residual rubbish sacks we put out so the lazier individuals will just pile it all in the same binsack.
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Well well >Rocquiaine.
Silly old me not knowing that if we send all to Jersey, or anywhere else other than around Guernsey; then Toxic stuff will not harm the atmosphere. well that’s how I read your posting—
well according to Rocquaine a great believer of “NOT ON MY DOORSTEP”
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What would you rather Islander? Have another incinerator here so that we will always have to fill it? Do Jersey and Guernsey both benefit by having 2 incinerators instead of just 1, churning out toxins?
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Not at all Islander – I campaigned vigorously for a solution that did not rely on incineration, but in the end that was not what was on the table. The final choice was between building an incinerator here or using spare capacity in Jersey’s while we drive down our waste. Which would you have chosen from these two options Islander? (Note: Brehon Tower was not an option either, oddly.)
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Looks like a case of ‘one man’s rubbish is another man’s profit. Both are winners?
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Not at al Rosie m’dear.
Yet to read Rocquaine’s post, he claims all knowledge of toxic whatever,
Yet calmly says better if Jersey takes it, (or words to that effect)
So , no not two incinerators, on two Islands, but a little more thought of who might suffer most from all this toxoic stuff.
Why should Jersey suffer?
I ridicule Jersey like most Guernsey people, but I do so with a certain amount of fairplay.
Rocquaine you come with many posts, most are good, yet I haven’t seen a good suggestion about this growing menance to society WASTE RUBBISH.
The mumblings from these States Members give us little hope. except to drive us further into the MERDE.
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Islander:
Jersey, by its own choice is already ‘suffering’ as you put it. That’s happening irrespective of whatever Guernsey does or doesn’t do. I don’t understand why you seem to think it would be morally better if we then add another incinerator into the mix and thus increase the toxic gases that we all have to share.
You rightly point out that ‘waste / rubbish’ is a ‘menace’. Quite so….. it is exactly what it says it is- a waste, of energy and resources. This is exactly why we need a waste strategy where all the incentives are to reduce the amount of ‘waste’ that is created. Exporting waste will cost us. So, in the long term, the less we send the less it will cost us…. and there you have an incentive to reduce the amount of residual waste Guernsey makes. If cutting down on rubbish is what you want, then this should be the strategy for you.
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A moment of calm reflection please. For all those people rubbing there hands together thinking that their waste bills are suddenly going to plummet, think again. PSD is putting forward a plan which it says will cost on average £180 per household. That covers it all – kerbside, black bag collections, export etc. They might tinker around the edges a bit, to try and get people to put stuff in the recycling and not the bin, but you still have that whole gamut of services that need paying for an it ain’t all going to get lumped on a few lazy individuals.
More likely, if you are a good recycler you’ll pay £160, and if you are a naughty little person you will get thumped for £200. However everyone will be using the services, so it’s fair. That might not be very precise, but I suspect it’s closer to the truth than some on here would have you believe.
Perhaps a better incentive would be to bring back the birch for people who don’t recycle to the nth degree.
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Good recyclers (who drive) will save further as they won’t have the fuel costs of driving to a bring bank every week and this is also a further saving to the environment through reduction in air pollution from their cars.
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Why not give Ronez a suitable patch of States land and a financial incentive to start a
new quarry, then use the old one for land fill …… Should give us another 30 years to decide what to do once that one is filled.
Plus by then there maybe other way’s of disposing of waste like a “laser incinerators”
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@MarkB
Great idea. We have an opportunity once and for all to cease the disgusting practice of piling thousands of tonnes of waste into the ground, and then above ground (look at the heap next to the current tip), which is environmentally very damaging. And then along you come and suggest we do it for another 30 years, because in that time some magic solution is going to arrive.
Not until we have blighted abnother area of Guernsey it won’t.
P.S. I presume you’re not advocating Ronez’s new quarry site woudl be near your house.
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Let’s not forget that the main focus of the new strategy is to minimise waste; as Rosie points out, the less waste we create the less it will cost to get rid of, so it’s in everyone’s interest to stop things becoming waste in the first place. This is also true of recycling: while it’s obviously better to recycle, say, a plastic bottle than to throw it away, it’s even better from an environmental and economic perspective not to buy that bottle in the first place. What will make the biggest difference to our waste volumes and bank balances, therefore, is a change in consumer behaviour, and a ‘pay as you throw’ system is probably one of the best ways to focus the collective mind on what we’re chucking out. Our current system is both unfair and unsustainable… Bring on the new strategy – it’s about time!
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Helen!
How right you are.
The idea is to cut down on useless rubbish…
It would be a good idea to have factories shops, and all who have anything saleable, to put a stop to the silly idea of PACKAGING.
Go to any shop and buy something, it just about makes me ‘Blow my top’ when I have to unpack all this useless plastic packaging
Governments are guilty in not putting a brake on this stupid idea of packaging
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Useless packaging drives me nuts too! Here’s a good tip: unpack it in the shop you bought it in and leave the extraneous stuff there for them to dispose of… if enough people do this they will take action and start stocking things with less packaging!
What really makes my blood boil is when they don’t even give you the option when there should be one – with fruit and veg, for instance: individually wrapped aubergines and individually wrapped stems of root ginger to name just two I saw in the Co-op this week, with no ‘loose’ versions – madness! And there’s really no excuse when local goods aren’t available loose. Retailers really need to address this.
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Dave R ……Point taken, It was just an Idea!!
Personally I would prefer our own Waste to energy plant.
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Why would our own plant be better than using spare capacity in Jersey’s, mark?
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Blimey MarkB, you’re a brave man coming on here and saying that. I admire you.
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markB:
In an earlier post you suggest that in 30 years or so we might find a new way to ‘dispose’ of rubbish. I don’t understand why you hope for the development of ever more ingenious ways to ‘dispose’ of materials. Rather than looking for clever ways to destroy resources, would it not be better if over those 30 years, systems are developed that put all materials back into useful production so moving the world from its current unsustainable linear economy to a circular one?
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Why? ………independents that’s why!
I don’t like the idea of having to rely on other people ie Jersey.
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Well, if you don’t like relying on anyone, Guernsey is not the place for you, not when we apparently import 94% of everything we use and consume.
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Also ….They may have spare capacity now but what about in 10 years time??
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Jersey hasn’t even scratched the surface with any recycling initiatives. The capacity of their incinerator is huge. There will never be any need for them to fill it with just their waste. If they don’t get our waste, or import some from france to take up the capacity, they might be encouraged over the coming years to allow their own residual waste tonnages to increase in order to fill the plant and maximise their energy production. But it would be totally unnecessary for them to do that. And to do that would mean keeping their recycling levels very low which will do nothing for their image.
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Rosie
So why did they spend so much money building an Incinerator that was far to big for their needs??. Surely they must be thinking in the long term for their own waste needs.
It worries me that in 10 years time, once Jersey gets its recycling up and running
Properly, they then turn around and say there’s no space for our waste….. “Build your own Incinerator” , which in ten years time will cost us a lot more than now.
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Once Jersey gets its own recycling up and running properly then they would have even more capacity for our waste in their incinerator would they not?
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Yes!
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markB- I did hear from one source (x Jersey politician) a while ago that the size of Jersey’s incinerator was influenced by the (then) likely possibility that they would also be taking our waste.
But things have moved on hugely in the last few years. The idea that materials / resources should be destroyed when a product has finished its usefulness is now understood to be unsustainable when considered on a global basis. Therefore there is much more work being done on increasing the ability to recycle things when we no longer have need for them. Witness how even cars are now being designed so that they are almost 100% recyclable. The European Union is looking at how they can create an environment that incentiveses (sp?) manufacturers to consider the ‘end of life’ of their products, so that the materials they use can be rescued and returned to production. Fantastic! That’s the world we want to be part of. And it is going to be up to ALL of us to work at reducing the quantity of ‘residual’ waste (i.e. waste that is unrecoverable) that is coming out of Guernsey. Jersey ‘should’ be doing the same if they are going to be in any way responsible about the amount of consumerism we all indulge in.
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To those who have commented that Jersey might run out of space, consider this: PSD have said that if we build an incinerator here we will need a capacity of about 28,000 tonnes. Jersey has a population one-and-a-half times that of Guernsey. So you might imagine that they would have an incinerator of around 42,000 tonnes. In fact it is 110,000 tonnes.
Enough for Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney and some to spare!
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I have read the new proposed strategy and the first thing that comes to my mind is why the consultation and research was not done before. It would have saved millions of pounds had the whole process been transparent from the start.
In terms of the revised strategy, I think that it is moving us in the right direction. Kerbside recycling is essential to have any hope that we will make the targets. ‘Pay per throw’ must be brought in with refuse collection being controlled centrally rather than by Parish.
With current evidence it would appear sending waste to Jersey is the most economical option. Funny that Bernard Flouquet stated in 2009 that exporting waste was not an option and now he is proposing it (see 2009 press releases on gov.gg).
As an accountant I would have to say that the costings are a bit dubious. I am surprised that it should be so expensive and suspect there is some padding in there. To be fair it is admitted in the Billet that it is hard to come up with firm figures at this stage. In fact there are very few figures in there at all. This is the area that needs to be looked at closely to make sure Guernsey is getting value for money.
I’m thinking of standing at the forthcoming election and if I do get in would want to ensure that we get the best solution for Guernsey environmentally and economically.
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Great start Heidi I applaud you! Can you please also propose a solution for those opposed to the use of plastic bags to throw out their rubbish in? Can I use a bin (wheelie or other) instead?
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Agree with everything you say, Heidi, and would encourage you to stand. I really believe Guernsey needs more environmentally-aware people in the States (and more women!)
At least PSD has finally come round to a more environmental solution for waste, and I know lots of people who will be nipping at their heels to make sure all the good things, such as the repair and reuse centre, are actually put into practice. I would rather the budget for this was slightly padded so there is less excuse in the future to cut out elements.
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Rocquaine:
One area where the budget possibly does need boosting is in the employment of more people to help the recycling officer in her job, particularly in the early part of getting the strategy up and running. I think it would be a case of spending more money early on to reduce the costs later on.
The more people we have educating the public and businesses as to how they need to start thinking and considering their waste at every level, and how they need to implement various waste minimisation targets etc etc, the better and quicker we will have the whole community pushing in the same direction.
Well done Heidi. Delighted that you are running for Deputy and know that you will put the time and commitment into the job. And like what you are saying about the waste strategy.
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