Parents put on notice that uni will cost them more
Monday 30th January 2012, 11:30AM GMT.
PARENTS will have to help meet the burden of increased university tuition fees, Treasury and Resources has said.
The department has suggested scrapping the maximum parental contribution or increasing it.
Treasury was responding to a report in the March Billet d’Etat, in which the Education Department said it had enough money to meet the costs of Guernsey students undertaking higher education this year.
However, it will return to the States in 2013 with proposals on higher education funding from 2014.
The maximum parental contribution for tuition fees for 2011 and 2012 is £6,094, according to Education’s schedule of fees and allowances for the year, published on its website.
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Woo hoo, guess who this will affect the most?!
The low / middle income earner! As per usual anyone that has plenty of cash coming in wont be affected by this as they would never have received it in the first place.
Now anyone wanting to go to Uni will have to work out their finances first!
Whilst it is possible to make ends meet with student loans, the massive amount of accrued debt combined with the tempermental job market means that people right now are finishing uni with loans totalling £50k or more….these people might have already had the £6k parental contribution.
Whilst that will be the struggle, the obvious impact is on local businesses. Assuming it goes ahead, 5 years from now you will notice a marked decline in university students returning to the island….thats because they couldnt ever have afforded to go!
So you now have a situation were your business requires certifications to a certain level (name a business in finance that doesnt require effectively high education certifications), as there are few local students returning, the only viable option is to obtain an open licence and find someone from the uk!
Such a simple little thing, but such a huge impact in the longterm!
Come on States…..do you actually have any member that looks at things longterm who actually has a clue about the real world?!
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Bob
For those of us that may question your arithmetic, could you please explain how you arrive at your alarmist figure of £50k or more student debt with a ‘standard’ three year degree?
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Quite easily really, students are already returning from university with outstanding loans totalling anywhere between 20k – 50k on a 3 year course.
The removal of the tuition fees will mean that the students will have to find that extra cash to fund themselves through uni.
Thus 3 years with an extra 18k to find – add it up yourself.
Plus what about 4 or 5 year courses….and dont forget the loan interest that is accruing over that period and the need to find a job before you can even begin to think about repaying.
It has been known for students on 5 year courses to have loans totalling 60 – 70k….and that is right now!
The downside in this island is that you dont require a degree to work in finance – unfortunately pretty much the rest of the world does.
Thus the removal of these fees payments means the longterm will be less local staff that have university degrees and therefore increasing the island population because we have to get them in from outside the island!
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Exactly Bob, and you have Charlie P saying that the main beneficiaries are the students.
Err… what about the benefit that having highly educated people affords the island? Doctors, nurses, teachers, dare I say it – finance workers?
Take Charles as an example. Yes, he will have benefited from his education, but a lot of local (and other) people will have benefitted from his knowledge. And now we’re all on the receiving end from those benefits thanks to his invaluable contribution to island politics…..
(that last bit might be stretching things…)
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@Billy
I can see the logic of your point. Society as a whole does benefit from having its people well-educated, but then the well-educated do also benefit themselves (usually) from the good edcuation that society has provided them (at everyone’s expense). It’s only reaosnable therefore that they make an adequate contribution towards that education, and still be quids in.
That’s the principle – the practicality of coming up with a system which does that fairly is more difficult. Student fees and loans etc really aren’t they way to go about it if they serve as a dincentive to the less well off – but have to admit that is gut instinct rather than a known fact.
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Low income earners children are currently well provided for as effectively they receive free tuition and maintenance. It’s about time the states started to look seriously about which subjects they would support at Uni. Should the taxpayer really be giving £ 50,000 to someone wanting to get off island for 3 years to study theatre make up?
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@Paul
No. As fulfilling as that might be….
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Disagree. The chance of someone getting a job in theatre makeup is, what 5% or less? But it’s still 3 years of graft and self-discipline. That degree might open few doors in the UK but it will be very welcome back here, regardless of subject. I’m sure we all know a good few arts graduates working in finance.
Someone training as say a doctor is much less likely to come back, in the short-term at least.
The States are currently advertising degree conversion courses to get people into teaching. If that’s proof that any degree is worth something then let kids follow their dreams before mundane reality slaps them in the face.
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Agreed
If they get the grades, let the kids study something that interests them and gives them a few years of a life.
They’ve got years of work ahead of them during which time they will undoubtedly be burdened with supporting the needs of at least a thousand pensioners each.
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I had two children who I had aspirations of them going to University when they were old enough. I thought ahead and took out two endowment insurance policies when they were ten years old that would mature when they were eighteen. This enabled one to go to University and the other to have a nest egg to start his life in practical engineering and set himself up in a small workshop.
If you think you can afford the premiums for the period of your child`s schooling then I can recommend that you too set your children up with a like policy. a few quid a month is easier to find than a lump sum and the benefits are many fold.
No, I am not an insurance broker but my father suggested I did the same for myself as soon as I started earning and I did and now enjoy the benefits of this form of saving. It`s well worth thinking ahead.
Create your own futures.
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Pyre
From September standard fees will be around £9,600pa, add to this maintenance grants, travel allowance etc brings the total states liability to around £50,000 per student. Obviously some courses such as medicine or sciences would be considerably more, also 4 year courses, such as languages, would be more. For lower earners, if tax social security etc were added they would need to earn £20,000 pa more to afford to send each child to Uni. Those unfortunate to be just on the earning limits, of course have to pay that amount from their income.
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Paul
Thanks for the explanation
However, for a student to finish a degree with a loan of 50k would mean that there was no parental contribution (as should be the case for low earners), and more importantly no contribution whatsoever from States Education
I don’t think the article above implies a total withdrawal of further education funding, just a change to it
(If all funding was to be withdrawn, can you imagine how many extra office staff and senior education civil servants that would pay for!!)
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@ Bob (1st post)
“Now anyone wanting to go to Uni will have to work out their finances first!”
Really? Wow! Do you think? Surely you’re not suggesting a degree (groan…… see what I did there? Degree. Gettit?) of personal responsibility?
Shocking………………
Hopefully these additional financial restraints and the current job market will see the death of the useless degree, you know the stuff like Media Studies and Underwater Yak Wrestling, that only serve to produce income for universities whilst enabling lazy underachievers to avoid gainful employment for a few more years.
The rest of your comment suggests that the finance sector could not survive without a constant stream of students fully qualified in drama, art and photography. It is my direct experience that this is not true, most of the ‘finance’ related employers offer excellent opportunities and indeed incentives to train on the job. The relevant qualifications are so specialised anyway that you’d only have them if you woke up one morning as a fourteen year old and said to yourself ‘I now know what to do with the rest of my life, I’m going to be an Actuary.’ If my peer group is typical then entering an industry early, i.e. post GCSE or A level, but showing willing to learn and progress whilst at work will see you have a more successful career path then those that join supposedly more qualified than you but 3 to 7 years later…………….
Excellent post from Peter signed off with possibly the best line I’ve ever read on TIG, make your own luck out there guys.
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Excellent!
I have said elsewhere that employers should look at the student’s report cards when thinking about offering them a job.
These give a better picture of the individual’s work ethic.
I would rather employ someone who’s report card says tries hard, does the best of his / her ability and good sense of humour etc.
The reports also give an indication of attendance.
I think too much emphasis is put on exam results and degrees by employers.
I have had to train some so called ‘ star ‘ pupils and the one thing many are missing is good old fashioned common sense.
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Ok, ill explain the post.
Up until now they may have worked out their finances with reliance on the tuition fees being payed. With the removal of them, these same students must suddenly find an extra (call it 20k) to add to the total they were already expecting. Yes it is that simple.
As for the finance sector…try getting a job in the uk finance sector with a degree in arts….without a proven 5 year base in fiance you would be laughed out of the building.
Unfortunately this is also the same downfall of the local finance sector, we have loads of staff that have unrelated degrees – this is not a good thing!
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“Err… what about the benefit that having highly educated people affords the island? Doctors, nurses, teachers, dare I say it – finance workers?”
There are other options for those that can’t afford university; work place, entrepreneurship, vocational, CFE and distance learning.
Degrees could be graded on benefit to the economy and subsidised on a sliding scale. Nursing scores ten and gets full subsidy and they are locked into the island on completion for a given amout of time. A degree in surfing and sorcery on the other hand gets nothing.
Different times I’m afraid.
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Absolutely agree!! (please see my longer post below). The sliding scale seems logical and completely workable.
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Neil, we are on the same page as most people would be. If something is so obvious why are education not proposing it? Cynics may suggest that their children benefit more than most.
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Perhaps a grant system could be initiated to encourage persons to study in areas deemed as essential to Guernsey and provided on the basis of the student returning to Guernsey to work after they are qualified. For example, essential workers such as nurses, doctors, teachers etc would have their degrees paid for and then be required to return to Guernsey say within 10 years post-qualification to work or pay back their grant in full. Students who wanted to study something not deemed essential would have to find the funds to pay for their degree themselves. This is similar to when an employer pays for your degree and you are obliged to stay at that employer for a specified number of years after graduation. If it works in the private sector, can’t see why it wouldn’t work in the public.
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That is a pretty good idea. It is very workable. It is pretty fair also. The only difficulty would be deeming what is essential. Skills gained from a less vocational degree can be transferable. Also even though I’m the first to have a whinge about Art Degree students returning and complaining their are no jobs here – creativity is essential for more balance. Individuals with it can always add value and more ideas.
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The problem currently is students go away and get this great extended education and do not return to the island. So why not repay the tution fees if a student returns to the island and is available for employment for at least a year. That way it would be fair to spend the money on the individual student that has the intention to invest their extended educational skills back in the island.
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I completely agree with you but unfortunately a lot of locals that return to the island cannot get jobs, for some reason this island gives contract jobs to people from the UK and not the locals. I know of 2 girls that have recently become qualified teachers and cannot get a job over here. They are having to stay in England away from their family to earn a living
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Guess what its the same over here in the UK. My eldest is hoping to go to Uni in September and we will be paying for it.
The economy simply cannot afford to keep subsidising students who “study” nonsense subjects and live it up whilst doing so. If those courses were removed, funding could be provided for career essential degrees. Those who want a career which requires a degree should be encouraged to go and those who don’t should get a job. If someone wants to study a non career degree then they should have to pay even if that incurs the loan debt.
How many people do you know that have gone to Uni and obtained a degree but work in a completely unrelated job where that level of qualification isn’t needed?
Before anyone asks, my son wants to be a paedeatric nurse so a degree is essential.
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Lots go on and do further education to study as you say nonesense, but that is a lot to do with Labour encouraging more people to study for longer so effectively promoted such courses. All that I feel has happened is there is generation who just wont get on and work, not everyone can work at a job they really want but whilst it is easier to sit at home claiming then take a job then it wont change.
After watching yesterday’s news and Bon Port’s Manager section it would appear Guernsey is no different. Unemployment may have gone up but I see this more of a reality of people just not getting going and taking a job. Any job is better for self respect, earning potential and their future. It is not that there are no jobs (same in the UK) just people have got work shy.
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Completely agree with you about Labour but I think you are mixing the stories when you talk about work shy and benefit claimants.
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I put two sons through uni. cost me £66,000.
both left with no dept because they both worked very hard during holidays e.t.c. I paid tuition fees and mainence. The boys paid for beer money and spends I gave them absolutely nothing towards that. There is no real reason why a student should leave uni with dept providing they work hard during the holidays and budget properly.
Lisa I agree with you about jobs for graduates if you wish to teach for instance it can be very difficult to get work here. The finance sector will take anyone with a degree and pay them a premium in doing so tempt people into that sector instead of the area they have a degree in.
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kevin
Was it worth the sacrifice in terms of what your sons are now doing employment wise?
I always find myself checking out the qualifications gained and the current employment(when stated)of those students who appear in the Press every six weeks or so
There’s another batch in today’s paper.I find myself wondering if some of them would have been better off going straight from school into employment locally
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I hope they left knowing how to spell better than their father ….
Unless they are in the priveledged position of having someone else ( be that their parents, or the state ) pay their fees and maintainance, there is no real way a student can leave university without being in debt.
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Kevin, I can empathise: I went to University in the late-90′s with a very small maintenance grant and no assistance from parents. I spent the two year’s of A-levels working part time to save to go, I spent all university holidays working (bar a 6 week field trip for my thesis) and held a part time job whilst at university. Most of my Uni clothes were sourced from charity shops, saving a huge amount of money, and I kept to a pretty strict £25 per week food budget. I left with a £100 over draft, upper second, had an absolutely fantastic time and partied hard (albeit on cheap beer!) Tertiary education is not cheap however it is naive to infer that those with lower means are automatically saddled with huge debt. Living on a very tight budget is hard but it is for only three years, it’s total worth is priceless.
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yep Ray,
one is a teacher here in Guernsey (wasn’t easy to get a job though) the other has a job in sport which is linked to his degree. I do take your point that too many students come back and get a job in finance that they could have done without going to uni but i don’t know what can be done about that.
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There are a proportion of students look at Uni as a an excuse not to go out to work for a bit longer. I hosted a student a while ago who was doing a 3 year course for a degree in IT. His middle year was a ‘work’ placement (for which he got paid). I asked him in conversation one day, ‘what do you want to do at the end of your degree?’ Reply; ‘I haven’t decided yet’.
If youngsters genuinely want a degree to persue a career then fine and I’m sure the better pay they will recieve will pay off their debts. If it’s just a 3 year ‘jolly’ then come back to work on a supermarked checkout then in my book, tough, live with it, it was your choice.
Maybe employers could be tempted to fund university study with a contract that they will remain with the company for a reasonable period afterwards to repay the investment and compensation if they leave ealier. That ensures they have the right qualification for the job and that the ‘talent’ returns to the island’.
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Toby,
good to see you still can’t resist childish little digs pathetic really.
however you are wrong ,it can be done and has been done. I suggest you read Ways and Means post and mine more carefully.
when someone goes to uni from here they could end up with dept only if the parents won’t pay the “parental contribution”. If the parents cannot pay the states will fund fees and maintenance on a means tested basis. I have employed hundreds of local uni students over the years those who work hard leave uni with little or no dept, those that won’t work the hours leave uni with dept. simples!
by the way check your own spelling.
priveledged?
you really must do better.
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