Sark ‘will struggle’ to find a doctor as good
Wednesday 15th February 2012, 9:00AM GMT.
Sark correspondent Phil Falle counted well over 100 people gathered outside the Island Hall at a silent demonstration in support of Dr Peter Counsell on Saturday.
SARK will struggle to find a doctor as good as Dr Peter Counsell, the local representative of the British Medical Association has said.
And the search for the island’s new medical officer has been made even harder after a Sark Newsletter campaign besmirching his name, Dr Brian Parkin claimed.
Dr Counsell explained his decision to quit in a letter to residents, saying he could not take the level of criticism made by the publication.
It had claimed his decisions to arrange emergency medical transfers from the island using the marine ambulance, the Flying Christine, rather than helicopter had caused some genuine harm.
‘Dr Counsell is an excellent doctor and, from what I’ve heard about him, he’s done a very good job for the island,’ said Dr Parkin.
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The BMA is a toothless tiger, It’s run by doctors for the doctors. Abit like gordon Dawes for KD! They wouldn’t look in to any cases like the GMC.
There we go, unbiased toward any side!
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interesting that you imply that Advocate Dawes is run by Delaney for Delaney!
I would have thought that the Guernsey Bar would have something to say about that, along with the Royal Court to which Adv. Dawes owes duties.
Clearly you have no understanding of how professionals operate, which is why you are seeking to question the provision of services by a professional despite the fact that the professional body and the actual recipients of the services are all perfectly happy.
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Merciful heavens, so now we have experts on the BMA here, do we?
Anyway, as has been observed elsewhere, any applicant for the job only needs to google “sark doctor” to learn he/she would committing themselves to a life of anguish, bullying, harassment, and quite blatant intimidation where the only upside is that weekly free copy of the SNL, valje 90p!
Sark really has shot itself in the foot, but there will be no one left to dress the wound.
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Gordon Dawes again features in the new SNL.
He may be toothless, but I bet he can afford a new set of case-hardened tungsten gnashers on the fees that SEM/SNL pays.
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and another thing! “Besmirching” the SNL asked for clarification on a number of issues, they weren’t and still not answered! It didn’t have to be the Barclay’s helicopter, Culdrose is only 75-80 minutes away, the french coastguard only 25, still hell of alot better than 2&1/2 hours. Even if it was decided that the patient was for DNR (Do not resusitate) the boat journey on that night was abit inhumane to say the least,when other methods were availible, were they ever asked about!
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The SNL doesn’t provide an unbiased account.
It’s full of assumptions not researched properly.
(my post replying to Devils_Advocate on the Trial by Media article on TIG details this further).
If there is any concern of negligence then it is up to the family concerned to ask that it is looked into. The family are more than happy with the care that was given so really it has absolutely nothing to do with Kevin Delaney or anyone else on Sark. This newsletter is just purely politically driven. They do not have the best interest of residents at all. They are self proclaimed voices of the people where no one is asking the questions…
What’s to say that a helicopter would have been any safer? in fact the Doctor replies to the questions that were asked of him in his response and makes it quite clear why he didn’t choose the helicopter. Just because it’s quicker does not make it the best form of transport for medical emergencies.
Have you read his response?
It can be read here if you care to http://www.sarksurgery.com/wp/2012/02/response-to-sark-newsletter-allegations/
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@Sprotley
Read the Doctor’s statement.
Now consider that any person considering applying for the post on Sark will read that statement.
Together with postings such as yours that continue to attack him.
Consider further how Islanders will feel when your Doctor leaves, and cannot be replaced. Consider whether tourists will wish to stay on an Island, where if they fall ill immediate assistance from a doctor is not available.
I for one would not wish to risk my family on a stay in Sark in such circumstances.
There will also be issues regarding holiday insurance.
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Sprotley, your so funny.
“it didn’t have to be the Barclay’s Helicopter”. The Editor of the SNL, I love it when to talks about himself in the third person, has been banging on about little and nothing else. with the helipad to support it.
The last peson to have a go at the Doctor was…….The Pilot of the Barclay’s helicopter.
Sprotley. Please keep posting.
Perhaps you could get a job on the SNL. It may have a departing editor soon. You never know.
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Flame Boy,
Pleased you find it amusing, as for editing the SNL, no thanks, believe it or not, I am strictly independant. Neither MB’s or SEM’s money will alter my feelings on the matter. They can pay me if the’d like but they will both feel it was a complete waste of money! I firmly believe in free press & free speech. Maybe someone will actually open a paper that openly defies both of them. Then we can have accurate critisism of both sides, that will open a new whole can of worms, that we would never otherwise hear about other than pub gossip!
Just don’t get to close to the flames or fumes at the dump…or your children will have 3 legs!
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Point taken Sprotley.
I can only judge people by their actions and SEM seems to lurch from self made crisis to another. then tries to apply alot of expensive spin after the event. If they didn’t have the backers, would they still be trading?
There is free press and then there is a sour grapes rant. Yes I found it amusing. You tell people, but no one believes it until they read SNL. Then it just got repetative and boring. Now I only bother if I have nothing more important to do. Like watch paint dry.
And I thought that was just an old wives tale about Sark kids having three legs.
Flames and fumes don’t bother me. See abve name.
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To save reading a lot of obvious stuff, the fundamental response was:
My clinical judgement was that transfer by sea was appropriate and would not, as a result of the findings I made, cause harm to my patient. I would not have made such a decision if I had thought there was a risk of that.
I do not, however, believe I made the wrong decision and neither does the patient or her family. A letter from the patient’s son who is a Hospital Consultant of 30 years experience records the family’s views. I have their permission to attach this letter (appendix 2).
I can assure you that my decisions are not improperly influenced by either Sark’s government or any other person. I always put the patient first.
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The British Medical Association is not something I would call a “toothless tiger”. It is effectively the Doctors’ trade union, and is a well funded, well resourced, effective lobbying body. This is how it describes itself on its web site:-
“We are the independent trade union and professional association for doctors and medical students, with over 140,000 members worldwide.”
If I were in charge of health provision for Sark I would be very concerned indeed at what Dr.Parkin has had to say. if I were an inhabitant of Sark I would take this as the first clear warning that unless something changes, no replacement appointment will occur.
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Sprotley,
Do you honestly believe that the BMA’s relationship to Dr Peter Counsell is analogous to Gordon Dawes relationship to Kevin Delaney? The BMA work for Drs in Britain, not for Peter Counsell. As a part of that, they need to check up on medical standards. I assure you, if Dr Counsell was in error, the BMA would be amongst the first to address that fact.
Sprotley, the facts that you (and the SNL) are asking for are not yours by rights to review. I’m sure with a little imagination you can understand why sensitive patient information, even in a medical emergency, is not liable to disclosure into the public domain.
I would urge you to read the Drs response to the allegations. It sets out quite clearly why sea travel was the best decision for the patient in question.
Lets be honest: If there really has been a breach of ethical medical standards here, it is not for Kevin Delaney and SNL to publicly judge. If Mr Delaney felt strongly about it, he should have raised it with the relevant authorities, not screamed blue murder in his own publication for political gain. It’s unforgivable.
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All I really want to know, even with this political crap going on at the moment,
A)if needed? will a helicopter be availible should a member of my family fall seriously ill?
B) If they or I have had to use it, will my family or I, or our bosses be put under pressure or intimidated to terminate our employment, lose our house, driven off the island!!!
In some military areas know as a “Code Red”, for those of you who don’t live on the Island, go against the Feudal powers that be and this could happen, it has happened. Those that deny that last bit, need to either wake up or are part of the establishment that made it happen.
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Sprotley,
A) Er, yes.
B) Er, no.
Now can we move on? No, thought not.
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Is there actually any evidence that anyone ever has lost their job on Sark due to…well…what exactly?
There’s evidence to say someone has been forced to resign due to bullying tactics.
Personally I think the latter is far worse.
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you obviously don’t live here. last year, a patient was medi-vaced off the island by the for said helicopter. her ex employer is part of the establishment , on her return she was made unemployed and had to leave the island
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This person was a foreign worker or on Sark born? Anyway the point not made here – I think – is that the person that truly got this person unemployed was Mr Delaney, if he knows or not.
It seems his newsletter and its rude reports are taken away hope of decisions being made that are based on facts. To an outsider like me, this seems very childish – maybe you need a nursery school teacher to teach you all to behave nicely?
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eh?! so she got back to Sark all fit and well went back to her job and got told by her boss ‘sorry love, you used the evil overlord’s heli, you’re out on your ear’ or something to that effect?
I presume nothing else was taken into consideration such as type of contract she was on (just casual work etc) , what her job was, whether it was still there, whether she could still have done it (I’m presuming she had something medically wrong to be medvaced out)etc.
How utterly ridiculous to suggest that someone lost their job as they took the offer of a helicopter to receive medical assistance.
Some cock and bull story no doubt that SEM and the SNL have fuelled to further their gain.
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@Nordic
We love the idea of “Kevin Delany’s Rude Reports”.
It has put a smile on our “unhappy” faces – at least, that’s what the Guernsey Press (a PROPER newspaper) editorial is saying in today’s issue.
Next time you are on Sark, please make yourself known in the Mermaid and you may get a free drink!
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SNL sounds like a one person propaganda outlet run by someone with a personality disorder and nothing better to do!
Amazed Brecqhou residents have done nothing (yet) to rectify this ongoing problem. The continual sniping only helps to magnify perceived relationship problems with no benefit to either side.
Right. SNL, how is it delivered, by hand to every property? I see its on-line too! Why bother to read it, click it etc. The more you do, the more ego trip the author gets
So, a good doctor leaves and I bet all the publicity will put off new competent ones applying.
Maybe one will become a Brecqhou resident!
Is this a new twist in the plot?
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It does make you wonder why the Medical Committee thought it wise to help increase the SNL readship by sending their response to the SNL to the GP and Private Eye, notwithstanding the fact that the Medical Committee had to publicly apologise for implying that the island’s newsletter had published ‘lies’ following the helicopter saga.
In fact, the report in today’s GP says, Dianne Baker said she and her fellow conseillers were very sorry for the use of the word ['lies'] in a public statement.
So Sark also need to find a doctor where government officials make unfounded allegations. I guess Private Eye may even publish the apology!
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The matter of lying is very well discussed in another place, in the context of Gordon Dawes’ earlier letter concerning the helipad farago:
“‘In any event there is no development being undertaken at the Cotil. My client is entitled to cut turf, re-compost and re-sew [sic] in whatever shape it [sic] chooses… These are neither building, engineering, mining, or “other operations”; nor is there any change of use resulting from the mere cutting of turf and resewing [sic].’”
SNL 132 now says:
“Dr Counsell says “night landings are possible but only by landing on a temporary or permanent helipad”: but he omits the fact that the Island now has a specifically designed helipad at the Moinerie which is maintained and checked twice daily…”
I didn’t know you can now get grass that glowed in the dark, but isn’t science wonderful? Or maybe Dawes original assurances were, in fact, something other than the gospel, God fearing truth?
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The island is going to have a hell of a job getting a new doctor.
“Come and work in Sark, where you can be on call, 10 months of the year, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, where you can be abused and assaulted by drunks(of which Sark has a teeny tiny problem) AND have your medical ethics/standards called into question by a couple of businessmen, their head guy and have it paraded in a solacious grot-mag!”
No thanks.
I can envisage violence soon, It’s the next step in such a horrid war of words.
If we get a doctor, perhaps it should be an ex-military one. At least they’dbe able to deal with the constantly hostile environment.
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DTH
Top name! It as “genuine” as Kevin Delaney’s concern for Sark and the people of Sark.
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I am intrigued by all this excitement that are caused on my favorite holiday island, so I have been reading this web site for a week or so, and I just cannot believe what I see!
Now there is another Sark News Letter yesterday? Sark must have more news for each person than anywhere in the world! But then I saw this is just the same news as usual and repeats again. Comparison with nazi Germany seems very hard to believe, but if it is true then surely your Queen will have do something?
I shall of course not be staying with my family in any of those establishments that are advertised along with such dangerous stupidity.
Although I can understand the mood is very deep, I do not think it is such a good idea to simply take away these properties for the Island. But if someone wants to start a fund where people like us can contribute money for the purchase of the businesses so that the Island can remain independeant of such terrible people and there dangerous ideas, then I will be pleased to contribute. With some publicity, I am sure you could get more than $50 million from reasonable people who do will want to see Sark saved from this unfortunate situation.
Maybe Sark would start a version of a Euro Millions lottery?
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Brilliant. The Sark Lottery. Bring it on!
In fact, let’s all send a begging letter to that young couple who recently won £45m.
They seem very level headed and like ideal residents – Cassey Carrington and Matt Topham even have ideal island skill. Cassie is a supermarket manageress, and Matt is a Decorator.
But could they afford to pay Gordon Dawes more than Delaney ..?
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Delaney’s latest SNL effort does nothing to help the cause of medical recruitment.
Maybe part of the plan is to simply to prevent anyone sane applying, so the SEM can install their own medical facility using anyone willing to take the famously fat shilling?
Maybe if the famous £9.95 carvery deal doesn’t rake in the riches, a better marketing plan for La Moinerie could be a “£2995 Celebrity Facelift Package Deals” – in a (chopper delivered) location well away from the attention of the mainland paparazzi?
Astonishingly the SNL (132) continues to plough head on with an attack based on “facts” that have been thoroughly discredited here, with selective quotes pinched from its pals here, as usual. It is so far beyond parody that most rational folks will be speechless.
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We are still missing the point, and rising to the tireless distraction bait.
The Medevac of Mrs Beaumont is one of a hundred issues where the SNL seeks to use the most tenuous association of unproven ideas with its core strategy of driving the elected authorities to distraction.
Yet again, remember that the day after the initial election, Kevin Delaney, acting on behalf of SEM shut all the business, and fired all the staff. Per teh Guardian:
“Sir David and Sir Frederick did not comment but their man on Sark, Kevin Delaney, said the voters of the island, until now the last feudal state in the west, had written the “longest commercial suicide note in history”.”
The doctor is just more collateral damage in a relentless war that MUST BE STOPPED NOW. Starting with the suspension of the SNL and an enquiry with evidence taken in camera as necessary, chaired by the Lt Governor.
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An enquiry is a good idea. But it is an idea that needs to be worked on.
Unless there is provision for an enquiry of this kind in Sark law you would need to create it. The Levenson enquiry has power to summon witnesses and to require them to give evidence under oath. It also has a power to grant anonymity to witnesses if they fear intimidation. It was set up under an Act of the UK parliament called the Inquiries Act 2005. I presume that a projet de loi extending the provisions of that Act to Sark, or replicating it, whatever the practice is could be enacted reasonably quickly. In fact, given the six month limit before the medical care crisis time is of the essence.
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Well, in the good old days, this would have been done in a front room by consulting adults, who swore an oath to act like grown ups and be honest.
If the Lt Governor appoint someone for the job and says “now act like adults for once you scurvy knaves” (he’s a retired Navy man, remember) – then this could all be dealt with an an afternoon.
However, what do we do with him (or her – better not to prejudge this) when the only possible verdict is issued: “guilty but insane”?
I’m not having any more of my taxes spent on strait jackets, padded cells and comfortable incarceration with Sky Tv.
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What a huge home goal for Delaney and the SEM.
He drove out the only doctor on the island and now no right minded GP is going to go touch the vacancy with a barge pole. How do you think prospective visitors to your establishments are going to feel Mr Delaney
when they find out that the island has no Doctor for emergencies because you drove the last one out.
Nice one.
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@forest
But is it not obvious that the Barclays will announce that they are going to appoint their own Doctor? after all the SNL complained about the Sark Doctor having a “monopoly”.
If the Chief Pleas refuses to allow this then they will be accused of gambling with the health of visitors.
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@Sprotley,
Did you not realise that air ambulances have to be fitted with equipment for advanced life support and have a fully trained crew? Putting a sick person into a transport helicopter would be of no use if the crew were unable to reoxygenate the patient, or use a defibrillator. Kevin Delaney has no medical training and is only concerned to obtain a helipad on Sark by devious means. This has nothing to do with ‘free speech’.
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Dectora,
Eeeer yes! If you actually read the threads and know what the situation is then you would know that all the equipment was availible and there are medical staff on Breqhou ready to go, it would have taken just minutes to load it and have it in place for the Medi-vac. One of guys who used to be on the Sark was a Paramedic for 20 ish years and was heavily involved with the RAF ASR, we used to have really long chats. I wonder what he would have made of this? I agree a helipad should only be for Emergencies. Here’s a question?
If The AREVA NC La Hague ever goes with a bang, whose going to be first on the Helicopter outta here?
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Sprot, let’s see a denial that the SEM strategy is not based on a desire to use helicopters to deliver upmarket guests who are “too posh to pedal” – and who do not want to run the toast rack gauntlet for fear of being recognised (and that’s another issue for another time, but the toast rack really does need a “premium” alternative with a sane amount of knee and luggage room.)
Actually let’s not bother, because after Gordon Dawes’ lofty denial that there was any intention to build a permanent helipad at the Cotil, followed by Kevin now boasting that he has done just exactly that – any statement from anyone or anything to do with the SEM/SNL is plainly not to be believed.
Maybe now the SNL has driven off the good doctor – in such a row that there is no hope of getting another to replace him – the plan is for the SEM to “generously” provide another doctor who will be happy to write a creative sickie and summon a chopper for every celeb guest at any SEM establishment?
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@Sprotley.
It is wearisome to repeat this, but you appear to require it but what HAS been established by the threads here (which include -ahem- my own postings) and the Doctor’s statement of resignation is that:-
1. The Breqhou helicopter is NOT an air ambulance.
2. Consequently it does NOT have “all the medical equipment”
3. Therefore it is not always, and actually it seems, usually is not the medically appropriate choice for evacuation.
Regarding crew the London air ambulance has three. Pilot, who has special training and experience over an above a conventional helicopter pilot so that he can land safely without a helipad at a location previously unknown to him. Doctor, and paramedic.
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@Sprotley
What has been ‘established on these thread’ is that Dectora is right.
The Brechou helicopter is not an air ambulance.
An air ambulance is a mobile treatment room -in extremis – a mobile operating theatre. It is specially designed so that it can land in small places (no tail rotor etc) without a helipad, and has a crew of three.
Pilot, which is a specialised trained role not just any helicopter pilot will do, Doctor and a paramedic.
Further, In his resignation letter the Doctor gave a full explanation of why a helicopter without special equipment, room to get at patient etc, which is what the Brechou helicopter is, might not be preferable to using a fully equpped ambulance boat where treatment can be provided during transit if required.
I refer you to a number of posting I have made on this matter; I am only adding this one as before I had not seen the Doctor’s letter.
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as a regular visitor to sark for 50 years but as an outsider from oxfordshire (my next door neighbour is our current prime minister)…I have followed with interest the last couple of weeks news…I think that Sark should allow the helecopter to land…to take deloony away.(back to the sewer from where he came)
Sark people…fight…do not accept this. You will win.
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@Keith R
Thanks – but please don’t forget that Cameron is YOUR PM, not ours.
Foir goodness sake please ask Dave to come to Sark (on a helicopter if necessary, we know he’s a busy man) and address the island on the matter of his ideas for the Big Society.
Non-intuitively, perhaps, Sark’s self-healing littel “big society” was at the root of the resilience of the island over 450 years… until the Barclay imposiitons and then their SEM agenda, bolstered by the propaganda of teh SNL, started to unfurl.
He might also bring another near neighbour Jeremy Clarkson with him. It would be instructional to watch how “cold turkey”
affects a self-confessed petrol head.
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Keith R
I feel sorry for you having such a scumbag for a neighbour. Presumably you mention this fact in an attempt to “big yourself up” in some way?
For someone with such a high social standing your written English is appalling. What on Earth would the local Conservative Club think of such bastardisation???
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Dear Neighbourhood watch:-
“having such a scumbag for a neighbour”
Sarkees are experts on this topic. He came to the right place for sympathy.
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Today’s Guernsey Press editorial describes Sarkees as “unhappy”; this may be presumptive. There is much evidence that “relieved that a cankerous carbuncle is being lanced” might be more appropriate.
Then if the intriguing idea of placing SEM assets and properties into a new Island Trust gets moving, then the description of mood might be “elated”.
Guernsey Press could then drop the pain of trying to seem “even handed” in the face of vexatious provocation and letters from “readers” who really ought to know better, and instead can afford to be nice to Sark once again, as we, the people, will be the ones paying for all the adverts! ;-)
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Bloody Hell, there are enough secret trusts on this island without there being another one. no one knows,(beside the top table) who owns or administers La Seigneurie or garden trust, or where the monies come & go from it, Is this just another diguise for another land grap to feed the trough of those on the top table?
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It would only be secret if “we the people” agreed. Obviously anything that important would be submitted to a referendum after an open debate.
Please don’t forget that the SEM – which boasts it effectively controls the Island economy, remember – is apparently (no one has yet denied it) a BVI company, and they don’t come much more opaque than that.
Thanks to Delaney’s brutal “fire and close” act of the day after the first election, Sark has been denied the opportunity to explore most of the real opportunites of this new world of so-called democracy, free from bullying, harassment and intimidation.
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Roseanne Guille also makes the point that this SNL comment is an easily disproven “non-fact”:
“Conseiller Rosanne Byrne – better known as the artist Rosie Guille and the Seneschal’s niece – was carrying a big banner calling for banning the free press on Sark.”
So how about reporting this please, GP, and demanding an apology from sickeningly sanctimonious SNL and its tiresome editor? The distressed victim of this dreadful and unsubstantiated LIE responds:
“Peter Byrne is in fact my husband, not my partner. My ‘big banner’ was calling for an end to the evil Sark Newsletter and not a call for ‘banning the free press on Sark’”
But when did the SNL allow the truth to stand in the way of its tireless efforts to harass, bully and intimidate?
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Today’s GP – OPINION – The voice of islanders
“…. Yet if the official view is correct – that the newsletter is a sledgehammer of biased propaganda read by few and respected by fewer – then its comments are of no mark and easily ignored by a professional confident in his clinical decisions.
Alas for unhappy Sark, the sense is that there is more to this than meets the eye and the real story has yet to emerge”
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D_A How we’ve missed you!
Of course there is “more to this than meets the eye” – the doctor/heli farce is as we have been saying for a while, just a distraction and the tip of an iceberg. The whole of teh SNL’s rather crude reign of terror since he fired everyone and shut everything in 2008 is now being laid out and explored in detail.
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Another clip from the GP OPINION yesterday
“But would the trip in a helicopter be quicker, more comfortable and therefore better than pounding across the Russel in the lifeboat?”
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Here’s something that has so far evaded this discussion: helicopters are not infallible, and when engines fail, and rotors break, the tend to fail in a biggish way: they can’t just drop anchor or drift (this is despite the SNL issue 12 taking the trouble to criticise an establishment connection who was involved in a fatal helicopter accident).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCPwFq_JuAo
I have spared you the more gruesome acident examples.
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Indeed. Has anyone ever tried transferring passengers between helicopters in mid air?
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The above of course is only a question! and hardly the voice of all the \island people.It has been answered more than once.
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I may have missed something but I still don’t understand why the doctor has quit. His statement clearly indicates that he is happy and confident with the decisions he has made, he has explained how he makes decisions regarding evacuation and under what circumstances and stands by his decision to evacuate Mrs Beaumont by boat. He seems to have the support of the people of Sark and it’s government and there is no indication whatsoever that he has made a mistake. No medical authority appears to have called him into question, no complaint has been made against him. So why on earth should he resign based on what someone wrote in a pamphlet? What’s REALLY going on?
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L H Michell
I only visit Sark. So no doubt some one may correct this.
I think this was the final straw, so to speak.
The SNL has for many months have wanted to get a heilpad onto the Island. Preferably behind a SEM holel.
It has criticised the doctor, on every occasion, that anyone has had to use the Ambulance boat. calling into question his judgement, dispite not fully knowing the condition of the casulty. Or having any medical qualifcations.
This has been a relentless campaign. So I assume the doctor has said to himself ” I don’t need this” and handed in his notice.
Hope this helps.
Corrections welcome, as usual.
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Flame Boy relates the situation that most Sark residents would recognise.
The effort in these threads to grind the discussion of the broader picture down with the minutiae of this one incident seems like a concerted effort to avoid the reality that this is indeed the last straw, and that the majority of the island now needs something to change so that matters like this can be debated openly and without fear of character assassination
But if you don’t live there and haven’t been exposed to the SNL and its weekly outbursts of defiance and carefully lawyered innuendo, you are entitled to wonder what the fuss is about.
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What hogwash – the story we are responding to is one incident, its just that some people wish to ignore the facts of the issue in question.
However talking about last straw, I guess you are referring to the Medical Council having to apologise for not understanding English!!
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D_A
There you go again. The heading is “Sark will struggle to find a doctor as good…”
So we have moved past the specious helicopter debate and are now exploring the probability that the surrounding furore is going to make it tricky to persuade anyone “of quality” who researches the post online to step into the same mire.
As for your allusion to the notorious Dawes “lie” intervention, the SNL’s clear and indisputable misrepresetation of Rosanne Byrne’s views on a free press seems more serious – and remains, as far as I know, not withdrawn?
Thus I put to you that your hogs are probably rather better washed than most.
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devils-advocate, do you think that we have forgotten the disgusting spectacle of Mark Lanyon’s death being used to be smirch the emergency services and imply that a helicopter could have saved his life.I know for a fact that Dr Counsell and the ambulance crew did all that was humanly possible to save him.
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Thanks for clarification on this Flame Boy. I also only visit Sark (my parents first visited in 1963) and I believe there are many people out there who do not live on Sark but who have an interest in what goes on there!
At the end of the day, if the patient and their family were happy to evacuate by boat then who is to question that?
Personally the chance to fly by helicopter would cheer me up no end if I was ill but that’s another matter alotogether.
I wouldn’t approve of a commercial helipad on Sark as it’s a small island and the tranquility of the place would be compromised by a commercial landing pad. How likely would it be that if an emergency-only helipad were installed (presumeably away from hotels!)that it would be mis-used to bring visitors to the island?
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It would be rather odd if it were true that the doctor had been planning on leaving the island for sometime and that it was well known amongst some for many months!
Surely the Medical Committee would not have persuaded the doctor to add weight to their disapproval of the SNL by making it seem that his decision was solely due to the SNL asking a few questions, as indeed the GP has now done.
“more to this than meets the eye” seems to be the leading question
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Frankly, I am surpised if ANYONE on Sark hasn’t been considering contingency plans to get away from the poison and recriminations ever since Delaney’s post-election outburst threw down a very large gauntlet, and set the tone for what was to come.
Every defiant act since the SEM relented on its policy of 100% unemployment – especially the vineyard clearance – could be reason enough to give up on the hope that Sark could remain the unspoiled getaway that we all fell in love with.
A fiefdom ruled crudely by cash and spite rather than 450 years of accumulated noblesse oblige (which has its pluses and minuses) is something any sensible person would prefer to avoid.
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Would the last caring, compassionate and polite Sark resident to leave the island, please turn off the lights and close the harbour.
Those remaining will be coming and going by “other means”.
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To close SNL not the route to go down (Laws, human rights etc.)
We all have the right to choose what we read or view. So choose carefully or avoid like the plague.
I remember giving up The Times, can’t remember why but was a protest move. Thinks may do same with Telegraph as of now. A tiny flea bite may not hurt but lots make the host itch like mad!
Come on folks, this is worth a blog post about injustice.
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Agreed, The SNL should remain. It is probably the single most useful and regular evidence of the challenges that Sark faces.
If it suddenly ceased – or worse – actually became a useful community asset, then gathering evidence against SEM acts like helipad construction and the progressive destruction of biodiversity would require a lot more effort.
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I just read Phil Falle’s latest Guernsey Press report. I suggest you all do. How can we persuade him to stand for office?
Of course, he is as likely to want to accept such an invitation as KDL would be to accept that Phil’s “well over 100″ count of the numbers present was accurate.
Pretty please Lt Governor, what more evidence do you need before you invoke the need to call all factions – including the power behind SEM BVI Ltd – to a neutral corner and demand that this mess is sorted out.
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You caught my attention with the word “evidence”.
Surely with conflicting accounts by people who were there, on the number who attended, makes it difficult to know exactly what the truth is, reasonable doubt!
From the thread: 120 Sark people protest against newsletter, the following:-
The man.
February 14, 2012 at 9:36 am
In the interest of fairness and accuracy. There were 120 people at the island hall, most had gathered for a jumble sale. About 40 protesters turned up and tried to get the jumble shoppers to follow them on the march. Most didn’t. So , purely in the interest of accuracy, there truly were only about 40 protesters on the march. Yes i live here, no i dont want an arguement, i just want my island to sort itself out. On both sides.
ALTsark
February 14, 2012 at 4:12 pm
I was at the meeting that was supporting the doctor, and indeed counted upwards of ninety people who were soley there to show their support for the doctor, as was my belief, hence my wish to be there.
there was also a similar amount of people inside the hall, who could be suggested were there to support the doctor aswell, although were maybe worried to be seen to be showing support for the doctor.
all in all i would suggest that there was indeed approxiamately 150 people gathered at the hall, inside and out, that is 150 people who would not have been there at that time on a saturday, in half term.
the group that then chose to march towards la colinette, was reduced to about fifty,
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D_A, in my youth when dodgy mullet hair cuts used to abound, they were also known as “DAs” for the similarity they bear to a certain waterfowl’s “tail arrangements”.
This characteristic also seems to extend all the way you your back, judging by its ability to repel any facts, howsoever supported by sober reports from objective observers.
But go on then, please follow your proposition along to its end by doing your usual analysis – and when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. SO then…
Is Phil..
1) short sighted
2) susceptible to mass hysteria
3) a liar and an an Establishment patsy
4) telling the truth
Your call, Sherlock.
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You quite obviously did not read the post you have responded to.
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For the record all the people you quote are known trolls! and yourself of course !
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In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: “That was an excellent troll you posted”.
———————————–
Which part of my above post was not on-topic and which part of your, was!!
No more need be said.
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Devils_advocate – yours is the precisely the confrontational and dubious “logic” that has got Sark where it is today.
You need to accept that most here cannot be bothered to read your predictable comments any longer, as we have far better things to do, like scan the property sites for somewhere where we can escape this incessant lunacy. The British Virgin Islands seem quite attractive – do you think your pals Fred and Dave need someone to count their cash over there?
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devils_advocate,
You are so boring, your posts are so out of touch and bear little resemblance to the actual reality of the whole situation.
You continuously try to be clever with your over analysis of what, to most people, is a situation that is obvious and straightforward.
I believe Dr Counsell’s statement said it all.
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Santa… How can someone be a known troll when the quote used is from their first ever post on these pages? I’d be delighted if you, or anyone else, could clarify this for me. Thanks.
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Having just looked at the “Sark News letter” for the first time, my immediate impression was that its editor is delusional. Having read on I am now totally convinced, especially by the number of times he repeats himself.
I feel very sorry for the people of Sark who are having this rubbish continuously pushed in their face.
I don’t think I will bother looking at it again.
“A delusional person has incorrect assumptions that cannot be reasoned with. These assumptions are usually strange and illogical.”
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There appear to be a whole load of real facts within that newsletter, albeit some are observational rather than anything new.
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DA: Really?? You may have succumbed to the “subtle” brain washing tactics.
The only verifiable fact might be the date on the cover, and even then I sometimes wonder. Even the 90p cover price is fiction.
(I believe some might also credit Das Kapital, Mein Kampf and “Noddy Paints The Policeman” with some facts, as well.)
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Welcome to our world, Tim!
Remember the old joke “what do you call a gorilla with a machine gun?”
Well what do you call a delusional writer or dubious propaganda with a bottomless pit of cash? Sadly, this is not a joke.
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devils_advocate
Give it up.
You make a complete mockery of everything. What is your objective exactly?
Regurgitation is all you possess!
Find something else to occupy your time with.
You’ve wasted it here.
I feel sorry for you!
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Very sad to read AuntieDA’s post as I find rudeness and a lack of curtesy to someone else’s view to be totally unconstructive and mainly an attitude that is prevalent in some of these posts and on Sark generally.
Having read back through D.A’s posts I do not see any of his posts that are rude or to be dismissed. He seems to have put forward his views carefully and well thought out and worthy of consideration as is every post made on this site. You do not have to agree but maybe open your mind to take on board other peoples thoughts and ideas.
Hopefully if anyone at the ‘top table’ or sitting in C.P’s reads any of these posts, and takes them on board, it may help to sort out the present debacle which sorely needs both sides to come together and to meet in the middle so that the ‘Man in the Avenue’ can feel that his or her views are being held to account and given the respect and consideration they deserve as voters and residents.
Unfortunetly, as proved above, if your view differs from someone else’s you are then subjected to derision. That in a nutshell seems to be the heart of the whole problem on Sark. Sad.
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OJ – DA’s problem that he/she/it may appear to seem measured and reasonable, but always studiously misses the counter-points made in a quite tedious and pompous way; the overall effect of which is to seem blind to inconvenient truths, and thus generally favourable towards the views of and tactics of the SNL.
It seems that this faction has become progressively more measured in an effort to seem more reasonable than the SNL itself, in order to appeal to a “reasonable observer” (such as you may be) since at last when push came to shove, it become apparent that the SNL has very little popular support.
Either you too are a member of that team, and have constructed a thoughtful and reasonable image accordingly – or you have succumbed, because DA’s analysis consistently refuses to address questions posed on that analysis, and not once has DA qualified his views by acknowledging that it is difficult to accept the view of the SNL as viable and reliable, when its erratic editor let the mask drop for a period, fired everyone, closed everything and claimed Sark had written a suicide note when his employers’ agenda failed at the election. FACT.
Since then, the SNL has become his vehicle to try and enforce that agenda “by any other means”, and it can never have credibility set against revealing and sinister mistakes in 2008. It is for the SEM BVI Ltd to close the SNL and find a less contentious role for the chief protagonist, whose editorial reign of terror has effectively closed down rational debate on the Island.
I apologise if you are not one of the SEM “posting posse”, and if you really want to explore the options for changes in Sark administration and policy, please do not even begin to give any credit to the SNL or it sponsors here, or you will be in a permanent minority.
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In a nutshell! That is it, old jay. Couldn’t have said it better!
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I think it is about time that I retired from this discussion that I thought started off on the premise of Sark maybe having a problem in future of getting a replacement doctor but since then has gone every which way, but loose!
SW since I have no problem with your posts, ideas and contributions I do not understand why you have problems with mine. What is your problem with my being a reasonable observer?
Life here does I admit make it difficult for anyone to be a reasonable observer and my attempts at maybe compromise on both sides are, as I suspected, falling on deaf ears in your case and that of many other residents and persons posting here with closed minds.
Going back on things that happened aeons ago will not solve the present situation nor help.
What has been done by both sides has been done and we cannot rewind the video.
Please try and go forward with constructive ideas and thoughts as to how the present situation can be alleviated, improved and hopefully as a result make life a pleasure to once again be a resident on Sark.
Oh and I am not a member of any ‘team’ club or organisation! I am my own free thnking person and so glad of that fact. You may not agree with my ideas and/or suggestions but that is how it is and I will stick to my view that we all need to pull together and stop chewing over past mistakes and go forward.
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Your sentiments hark back to more genteel times, ‘eons ago’.
The times you may remember from before then, when people treated each other with respect and mutual understanding, are gone, and who is to blame for that?
Should the long suffering residents of Sark continue to act with the same sensibilities they once did, there is no doubt in their minds – or most – that this will be seen as a sign of weakness, and golden opportunity for SEM to gain further ground in their battle, which would be naive at least, foolhardy at best, and to their minds – and many – the end of Sark.
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Dont_P sums up a complex situation very well. It’s important to resist any carefully constructed agenda of bullying, harassment, intimidation with its relentless effort at brainwashing and browbeating the susceptible.
Don’t weaken your resolve to hold out for the right outcome in the faint hope that some form of woolly “let’s be nice chaps” compromise might do any more than postpone the next crisis.
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I know this really is off subject (ie: not about the title of this thread), but as the debate has dried up and there is no other forum for debating the SNL, here goes:-
Here is a challenge for those who read and understood the front page summary of claimed facts in the SNL#133.
Please let me know which of the claimed facts on page one are inaccurate, (page one being the summary of the following four pages), for example xxxx is not factual because xxx. To be honest I’m not expecting anyone to find anything, but I accept I may be misinformed and with an open mind I am willing to learn.
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@devils-advocate
This is thread hi jacking. If you wish to discuss the snl then Mr Falle’s article about the demo against the snl is the place to have a discussion. Not this thread.
I also note that you are always keen to ask questions, but when you are asked a well formed one you decline to answer. For examples just look at my postings on various threads.
if you wish to continue this discussion please do so on the other thread.
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I think you will find that the moderator is the judge!
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There are plenty other forums debating the motive of SNL including some posts where you’ve declined to answer (including mine).
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D_A: a tiresome (but predictable) proposition. And when you say: “To be honest” – I assume this means that all else you post is not?
The SNL partly describes what seems like an efficient way to run a small island with the extant consent of the majority; Sarkees are not keen to support the lavish trappings of an irrelevant a typically undemocratic European bureaucratic nightmare, like Greece or even the UK.
We should be aware of what is not said, namely that it was Mr Delaney who (without ever winning election of any sort) acted with “supreme powers” when he fired all the staff and shut all the premises when the election failed to produce the result he demanded.
What is not said is that Sark did not spend 4 years engaged in a world war of its creation ethat changed the face of mainland Northern Europe, and then went bust as a result of the subsequent settlements. Sark – under a succession of Seigneurs – has been responsible for paying its own way for quite a while.
What is not said is that the SNL would not have been allowed to propagate its tiresome propaganda for days, never mind years, without being “stopped” in 1930s Germany.
In 1930s Germany, a small time painter with a chip on his shoulder rose to supreme power through the use of polemic and vitriolic oratory coupled to bullying, intimidation and harrassment. He even oversaw one of the largest infrastructure improvement campaigns in German history.
So all in all, cheers for the heads up, we know PRECISELY where the SNL is coming from. If I was Guersney, I’d be checking to see if the old fort canons were still in working order.
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Calling doctor Mud..calling doctor Mud
The Isle of Sark has some flying excrement that has your name on it
So could the add for the job be written
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DA. please, go back to the overheated residence of your employer, and take KD with you, the copious amount of hot air you both take with you will be most welcome down there.
I’ve asked this before, and I appreciate I’m being way too simplistic, but as a good starter for ten, can someone please, please tell me WHY-oh-WHY everyone doesn’t just STOP READING the SNL, full stop?
As intelligent people (who, I’m sure, have survived worse than a couple of rich bullyboys, their ignorant henchman and some well trained legal monkeys), you must be able to see that one of the main things giving SNL/KD real power is that you keep reading his propaganda, surely?!!
Also,can someone please confirm how many times the helicopter has been called out, and how many times is wasn’t actually available? (DA, there should be something on file from before you were employed by SEM, please confirm before you leave for warmer climes).
And lastly, can anyone please tell me how, if a medically trained, qualified Dr is confident in his decisions, his patient and their family are happy with the treatment they’ve received from that Dr, and no one has died or been permanently impaired because of his decision – it is anyone’s elses’s business to publicly question his decision, in particular, a someone else who has no medical training OR personal association with the patient or family?
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“it is anyone’s elses’s business to publicly question his decision, in particular, a someone else who has no medical training OR personal association with the patient or family?”
The GP did:-
GP – OPINION – The voice of islanders
“…. Yet if the official view is correct – that the newsletter is a sledgehammer of biased propaganda read by few and respected by fewer – then its comments are of no mark and easily ignored by a professional confident in his clinical decisions.
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DA – this post (like the rest of them) makes no sense. The GP wasn’t questioning the Dr’s decision.
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if you prefer:-
GP – OPINION – The voice of islanders
“But would a trip in a helicopter be quicker, more comfortable and therefore better than pounding across the Russel in the lifeboat?”
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DA – you’re quoting from an article/opinion page that I can’t find online. If you have a link to the article would you be kind enough to put it here? Without context I can’t comment on those particular quotes you’ve mentioned (nor can anyone else) therefore it’s a bit of a dead argument.
However, as you are so fond of quotes, I’ll take the liberty of quoting a few articles which can be viewed online.
Freedom Without Fear
“…Unless people are allowed to live their lives without the fear of retribution or vilification – no matter what shape or form it takes – then so-called freedom of expression and speech is meaningless.
Generally speaking, many people in Sark do not live with freedom from fear…”
Dissatisfaction guaranteed after sustained attack
“… His resignation came after a sustained attack in a number of editions of the Sark Newsletter following the medical evacuation of Diana Beaumont by sea earlier last month…”
What about the direct accusation to Phil with the SNL detailing him as
“…a disgrace to journalism…”
Or do quotes only work out of context and in minute detail for something trivial that doesn’t address the issue as a whole?
I’ll leave you with this one, which is quite apt for most of your arguments…
“…In the Newsletter’s eyes, it seems that the only place fairness and objectivity come before the pursuit of power is in the dictionary…”
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@devils_advocate
You are being obtuse again. “the decisions” of the Doctor being referred to in post 28 are his medical ones, not his decision to resign.
The GP quote refers to his decision to resign, which they queried.
By the way are you going to answer my questions posted on various threads and addressed to you? (And please answer them in the correct place.)
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Okay, just this once.
Thread: Doctor ‘driven out over harassment’
Post 50: David Berry
February 9, 2012 at 12:13 am
Have a look at posting 44, which you may have overlooked in your confusion.
Note the quoted headline.
Any reasonable person would draw two conclusions:-
1. That an allegation of wilful negligence was being made.
2. That as what is being alleged is medical negligence the person being accused of wilful negligence is the Sark Dr.
I hope you will feel able to respond to this comment.
The quoted headline was: “THE EMERGENCY MEDICAL EVACUATION OF MRS BEAUMONT: WILFUL NEGLIGENCE?”
1. There was no allegation
2. There was no allegation.
Are you sure you read it properly – It was posing the question, it was for the reader to form their own opinion on whether they thought it could be wilful negligence.
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you really are pathetic
if that is the basis of your defence of the SNL then it is clear that it is indefensible.
So the allegation was framed as an innuendo loaded question – big deal. The text of the newsletter then went on to question the actions and decisions taken, questioned the correctness of those actions and decisions, and suggest (wrongly and on the basis of no evidence) that a patient’s health was put in danger. The clear inference is that an allegation of wilful negligence was being made – that was the sole point of asking the question and the newsletter only cited opinion which was designed to direct the reader to that conclusion. You just don’t want to see it.
Trying to be too clever just exposes you for the disingenuous fool that you are.
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“The Sark Newsletter has no hesitation in saying that the
conduct of both Michael Beaumont
and Dr Counsell has the appearance of wilful negligence.”
NO ALLEGATION
Of course that does not mean that some people will read it as an allegation and so be it, or they may think it was an accusation, or an assertion, but whatever it was, since when questioning the actions of someone mean its an allegation!
My recent experience of posting on various threads dealing with some of the current issues in Sark, has been quite an introduction!.
Looking back over many of the posts I discovered that a large proportion appear to be from people who have nothing to add to the debate other than their desire to to attack other contributors, they appear to label anyone who in their eyes is not part of their ‘club’, as either employees of the SNL, or a multitude of other allegations or assumptions.
Anyway I digress, the purpose of my initial response was in reply to David Berry’s polite request.
Furthermore I note that no-one could point me to any non-fact in the SNL#133 page 1, rather than debate on facts its just more blah, blah, blah….
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Devils_advocate
I’d give up now if I was you, you appear less and less credible with every comment you make.
A little like the SNL
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A lot like the SNL.
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You have to wonder what’s going on with some of posters’ motives. Is D_A just here to wind us up, or is he trying construct a case for his own defence as the possible originator of the carefully contrived innuendo that typifies the style of the SNL? In the case of the doctor it plainly went beyond the usual measured innuendo towards straightforward defamation, so a nervous effort to explore semantics and invent arguments to justify it and try and cling onto however many pieces of silver the task entails, is not unexpected. Either way, it seems sensible that he/she/it is simply ignored henceforth.
Yesterday’s SNL bulletin critique of the Guernsey Press again fingers an individual brave enough to appear above the parapet as a further sinister warning to all who would question its agenda.
There’s a further unflattering reference to “untrained and unqualified Principal Judge Reg. Guille” which would be usefully qualified by pointing out that a mainland judge (and probably one on Guernsey) gets paid about a zillion quid and would be generally irrelevant in a community of 600. Or is the SEM offering to pay for one?
Many people on Sark might think themselves to be lucky to have a shrewd old cove with a lifetime of experience and common sense, and who knows everything and everybody to do with the island. The biggest beef that they have with Reg is that despite Delaney’s tiresome attempts to imbue Reg with mythical feudal “superpowers”, he is apparently powerless to stop the bullying, insults, innuendo, harassment and intimidation of the SNL.
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Well said, Jeremy!
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Having recently read all the posts and what has happened, I thought I ought to enter the fray. By what I write some of you will know me, so you know what I say is true. I have over 20 years experience in Anaesthetics, surgery, trauma, including work in oxford doing actual neurosurgery.Over half of those years was spent as a paramedic for powerboat rescue teams, I was involved with the RAF as a civilian paramedic doing Air Sea Rescue, I was also involved with the RNLI on the east coast of the UK as their medic. So yes, I do find myself both experienced & qualified to DISCUSS the matter. I also lived and worked on Sark!
What seems to pop up the most is the lack of a proper procedure for getting proper emergency cases of the Island.
Boat vesus Helicopter? If the helicopter is properly equipped or can be, then helicopter everytime. There can be no question mark over that.
It doesn’t and shouldn’t matter who owns it as long as it’s equipped and ready.
In any trauma or medical emergency where time is critical, then as soon as the patient is stabilised, they should be got to specialised medical treatment by the quickest route, no if’s, no buts.
I’m sorry but in this day & age where anyone takes 2 1/2 hours to be got into specialised medical care, even A&E, Then that system of transport seriously needs looking into.
There have been occassions on board the RNLI boat where we have slowed down and called in a helicopter to take the patient off us because of time critical, also in high seas, head injures, including intercranial bleeds (strokes) can get worse because of movement of the boat. (Some brain tissue will die off straight away because of the pressure, a bleed will start to effect other areas, that were previously unaffected, given enough time).
I have in my time, experienced all sorts of trauma and medical emergencies and have always done my upmost best for the patients. I take no sides in this argument, I’d only ever argue for the sake of the patient, that they be given the very best that was on offer.
Otherwise, why do it?
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A very interest post Pedro and you confirm what most people would expect to be the case.
If I were to suffer from a cardiac arrest, I would assume that if a helicopter was available those with the responsibility for my evacuation would automatically utilise it, but as some have argued the Barclay’s helicopter is not suitable, so in my example I would not be saved as a couple hours is 1hr and 40mins too late. I would not care that a nearby helicopter was not fitted out, I would just want to arrive at an intensive care unit as quickly as possible. In that situation what would you do?
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In the event of a cardiac arrest you need urgent treatment on site as fast as possible; ordinarily I would see this as a case for an Air Ambulance to be brought in so that the patient could be treated in what amounts to a mobile intensive care unit with its own, specialised medical staff.
This situation occasionally happens on Scottish Mountains.
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Agree, or in my experience the welsh mountains, sometimes a land ambulance will have done all the nessacaries at the scene and act as a staging post but will stil transport by air as it’s quicker. If we were first on scene, as was many the case then it was a case of stabilise and then move. The main point being, we had the patient receieving specialist medical care within the hour.The exception being I remember 1 case, where we were called out to a ship in the Atlanic, and for 2 hours, we were the specialist medical care!
Sark is in a very difficult situation. I’ve tried to look a this from a completely independant but professional view. There are possible problems araising. The argument for & against the use of helicopters, at the end of the day patient criteria should dictate and if that means using one, so be it for the main reason of speed and accessibility. Also,for those who oppose the use of a helicopter, please note, I, for one, have no wish to apply for an air ambulance role with anybody….I’m getting too old and I have no wish for my hair to get thinner or even more grey!
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DA.
A basic requirement would be Monitoring, oxygen therapy and airway management including suction, a small portable defib. Along with some-one who is both qualified & competent in their use. Alot can happen in 6? minutes (flight time), you need to have a “What if?” head about you. You would need the patient to be either stabilised or in a “sod it and go” state ( because you’ve done all you can at the scene and if you wait longer, the patient will suffer). It’s a differcult situation , which I’m sorry to say alot of people do not understand. In either case, waiting 1-2 hours to arrive into specialist medical care, is too long.
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Pedro
There is no dispute that medevac helicopters have their uses, and the option is available to the doctor.
The discussion here is whether not the SNL is equipped, in an atmosphere of some hysteria, to invade patient confidentiality and pass medical judgement and override the opinion of the trained medical professionals on the spot.
A subtext of that discussion is the way the SNL’s decision to “politicise” the personal distress of those involved is symptomatic of the core problem – namely that the SNL has effectively closed down all discussion of anything on Sark, since no one wishes to get involved and become the victim of the SNL’s endless innuendo, bullying, harassment, and intimidation.
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Then there are really only one of two things to happen.
1. you sit down at a table and work things out, like responsible adults, after all, the people that are really suffering at the end of the day actually need both side’s help, and need it now. whether you appreciate it or not.
or
2. You have a boxing ring in the centre of the millennium field, beat the crap out of each other then hope that either the helicopter or the Christine is availible.
I’m a medic and I hate fighting of any kind, just thought I’d pass that on!
so how about trying the 1st one.
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Pedro – of course everyone appreciates that, but as they say:
“Easier said than done”.
The recently arrived Brecqhou Hillbillies and The Establishment, guarding 450 years of unique heritage, have been feudin’ away for years.
Sadly, Kevin Delaney sure ain’t no Daisy May, although there is a Jethro in the SNL cast these days (any kids reading this can look them up on Wikipedia, of course!)
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If it helps, there is always this website
http://www.relate.org.uk
Maybe they can mediate between the two sides
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Pedro,
I quite agree with you on all of your points and i don’t think there is any argument that a helicopter should be used in a serious emergency, If available.
The seriousness of that emergency will be assessed by the doctor on the scene at the time taking all circumstances into consideration.
That is where the crux of this particular matter lies. The decision lies with the Doctor and in this particular incident he decided it would be carried out in the time tested method. A method that apparently the family of the patient were happy with and the proceedure was completed without incident.
It is now nobody elses business to question this particular incident.
A statement was made by someone on one of these recent Sark forum’s. Apparently the Brecqhou Helicopter was requested nine times during last year, seven times it was unavailable, once there would have been a five hour delay and it was used on one occasion. I have no Idea of the accuracy of these comments, but perhaps someone with the facts at hand could tell this forum the facts from 2011 and clarify that statement. If true it is quite relevent.
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“If true it is quite relevent.”
Surely it would only be relevant if the Doctor had considered its use, but he did not, he never called to check! Speculation on whether it may or may not have been is irrelevant.
“i don’t think there is any argument that a helicopter should be used in a serious emergency, If available.”
I agree with you, both others on here will often draw your attention to say it is not a medical helicopter etc..
Dectora comments: Putting a sick person into a transport helicopter would be of no use if the crew were unable to reoxygenate the patient, or use a defibrillator.
And some interesting replies from Dave Berry, such as:
1. The Breqhou helicopter is NOT an air ambulance.
2. Consequently it does NOT have “all the medical equipment”
3. Therefore it is not always, and actually it seems, usually is not the medically appropriate choice for evacuation.
I do not know the merits for such an argument, but perhaps Pedro would care to comment and help us understand.
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DA.
It takes a few minutes to have all the equipment loaded aboard and set up with a well trained crew. So from personal transport to medivac equipped is a few minutes then go, the equipment can even be loaded and ready while the pilot does his start up checks.
There are a number of trauma or medical emergencies where the helicopter is the ideal transport of choice. As they are emergencies, it goes without saying, speed is of the essence. As far as I remember, Sark does not have X-ray or CT facilities. Essential in either trauma or medical emergencies for a better diagnosis, for example, a CT scan can show the extent of a cerebral bleed or obtructed gangrenous bowel. Patients with any form of Spinal injuries have been shown to fair better airlifted than by conventional ambulance.
No, the use of a helicopter won’t cure all of your illnesses, but it will get you to a place that can, quicker than a boat.
As I mentioned in a previous thread if the helicopter has the basic equipment mentioned, then someone would be a fool not to use it.
It wouldn’t really be idea unequipped except in the most dire emergency, when it’s a case of “sod it & go” as explained eariler
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Pedro
Heavens, that sounds very gruesome. Maybe the kit should also include a humane killer if all gets to be too much?
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Sarkwatch,
mmh, will have to consult with Gavin over that one.
After a bad one, normally a cigarette & caffine fix would be sufficent. But the whole crew would have a debrief amongst ourselves and if there can be any inprovement, then that will either be used next or brought into the training.
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Sue
I agree the availibility of the helicopter needs to be freely availible, but if it’s not availible then what about the French Coastguard? 20-25 flight time minutes away?
If in my medical career, if I never questioned why a Doctor was doing or did something, the way he\she did, then nothing would be learnt. Doctors are human like the rest of us, not Deities.
It’s a 2 way thing, we learn off them, they learn off of us. It’s all a matter of passing on experience.
This incident does belong to the family and the doctor. I understand and support that, however, it does raise some questions, such as
Was there any significant neurological loss between been first assessed by the doctor and assessment at the hospital, due the 2hour plus wait?
There are lessons to be learnt here.
In that access to specialist medical care should be done with all due speed.
There is something else worth mentioning, the transfer was by RNLI, the RNLI boat is nowhere near equipped like the Flying Christine.
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Well said, again, Jeremy!
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Also the Brecqhou helicopter is not an equipped air ambulance.
This particular row (the claim that the assistance of the Brecqhou helicopter was being declined on political, not medical grounds and that not using the helicopter was medical negligence) arises, as I understand it because Breqhou has been seeking permission to establish a permanent helipad on Sark to allow scheduled helicopter services to start between SEM hotels and elsewhere. A benefit claimed for allowing this (VERY NOISY!) innovation is that the Brecqhou helicopter could more easily be landed on Sark for medical evacuations.
My contribution has been to point out that an air ambulance does not require a helipad. In fact that is the point of a Air Ambulance; you land it as close to the patient as possible. This means that an air ambulance service if introduced to Sark would not need a helipad.
To compare the Breqhou helicopter to an Air Ambulance is like comparing a private car to an ordinary ambulance.
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David,
Please note, I am only interested in the Medi-vac side of things. I have knowledge or understanding in the heli-hotels claim and is staying well clear of that argument. The problem with this site the threads go through slowly and I hope I’ve answered the question on eqipment on a previous comment
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sorry should have read…. “I have no knowledge, interest or understanding in the heli-hotels claim and is staying well clear of that argument” you can’t edit once posted! :-} just noticed ** equipment
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The fact of whether the helicopter it is equipped or not, is not an issue when speed is of the essence.
As Pedro says, “You would need the patient to be either stabilised or in a “sod it and go” state ( because you’ve done all you can at the scene and if you wait longer, the patient will suffer).”
In the case highlighted by the SNL#123, the doctor would have been aware that the Barclay’s helicopter can land at the incident site and he also knew there was a suitable night time helipad and he knows the helicopter is not affected by rough sea conditions.
So obviously the condition of the patient was such that speed was not of the essence.
I find it odd that the Medical Committee did not just respond giving reassurance to those who may have been concerned by the issues raised by the SNL by emphasising the type of situations where the helicopter would most definitely be called upon and in so doing nullify the issue.
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That’s it devils_advocate ! your off my christmas list for telling porkies again.
Santa
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I guess I am supposed to know what you are referring to, but I do not, please enlighten me.
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Dearest DA, given your magnificently obtuse and pedantic thought processes, enlightening you is probably the work of several lifetimes.
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I see you cannot back up your claim of ‘telling porkies’, so why bother!
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But it is the best of fun to see you bite Gordon !
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So you admit it, you were incorrect to state I was “telling porkies”.
Just a lot of hot air!
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D_A – you are replying to yourself? How quaint!
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DA,
Here’s a scenario of a “Sod it & go”
Patient is on a hillside, having had a heart attack, the reason for the heart attack is the loss of blood volume due to a ruptured Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm. Patient is intubated, two large lines with Fluids (Gelofusine) running. You can’t stay there, they will quickly bleed out, you cant continuly give fluids, they will haemo-dilute, you cant fix the aneurysm, you really need an Arterial Surgeron.
In most emergency AAA’s, only 15-25% will make it past A&E to theatre (depending on how big and where the rupture is). As a paramedic, the odds are already really against you. You have to move! If you dont, the patient will die, if you do, chances are the patient will die anyway.
I know, I’ve been there.
Amazingly, 8 weeks later, I saw the same patient shopping with their spouse. Sometimes “sod it & go” will pay off, othertimes it won’t!
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Its funny, still no one can confirm the availibility of the Brecqhou heleicopter as stated below. If the statement is true it makes it a very hit and miss affair as to its availibility.
‘A statement was made by someone on one of these recent Sark forum’s. Apparently the Brecqhou Helicopter was requested nine times during last year, seven times it was unavailable, once there would have been a five hour delay and it was used on one occasion. I have no Idea of the accuracy of these comments, but perhaps someone with the facts at hand could tell this forum the facts from 2011 and clarify that statement. If true it is quite relevent.’
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Not relevant to the case in question, as we know the doctor did not check to see if it was or was not available.
However, I stand to be corrected, but the Brecqhou Helicopter although the nearest, is not the only one the doctor could use and lets face it, who in need would worry about where it came from.
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DA
“However, I stand to be corrected, but the Brecqhou Helicopter although the nearest, is not the only one the doctor could use and lets face it, who in need would worry about where it came from”
I agree completely.
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All very fine and laudable of course, but there is a teensy little elephant in the ER and the general question of healthcare funding here. Who is picking up the tab for all these chopper adventures?
A real conundrum of modern life is that it is possible to “extend existence” almost indefinitely by throwing cash at every case.
Whatever – the first and most crucial thing is to have a well-equipped doctor in his surgery on the Island, and the point of this entire thread is that the SNL is responsible for driving the doctor off the island for all the reasons of the SNL bullying, harassing, abusing, and intimidating. While some of us exploring this fundamental issue, others persist in trying to rearranging argumentative angels on a pinhead to mask the SNL’s total and inexcusable crass hostility to anything that is not on the SEM agenda.
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Ian
“A real conundrum of modern life is that it is possible to “extend existence” almost indefinitely by throwing cash at every case”
my question is:
What price do you put on a life?
On a relative, a child, some person that has known you all your life or a complete stranger?
When you consider that the average cost of 1 fatal motor accident is over £1m. Nearly Sark’s annual budget.
I wonder what percentage of Sark’s annual budget goes on health?
Maybe someone from the health committee can supply the figures.
Are you suggesting that someone is nearing the end of their life, has less spent on their medical welfare than a child?
As far as I’m aware, and I stand to be corrected. Using a Coastguard, Royal Navy, RAF or Brecqhou helicopter will cost nothing. They are known as “Flights of Mercy”
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Pedro – putting a price on a life is pretty much the moral dilemma facing the medic in charge on the spot, is it not? Not the editor of fascist bile-mongering publication that is pursuing an obviously commercial agenda.
Notwithstanding, there must eventually come a point where the cost of the exercise is “real money” and not the sort of fairy money of bottomless welfare that has ruined the economies of many compassionate countries, so that retirement ages are now heading towards 110 years of age.
Someone here already suggested that demanding a chopper evac for a headache in case it’s meningitis would soon send Fred and Dave to Cash Converters with their allegedly redundant wine making equipment.
Life is full of practical challenges.
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It may not be relevent to this case, but it is relevent to the general argument re the use of the Brecqhou helicopter.
I assume you mean the French rescue helicopter. In the case of a rescue situation, yes it would probably turn out, but i very much doubt in the situation subject of this forum.
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It is irrelevant, the Brecqhou helicopter is one of many assets that is registered with the emergency services and can be used when it is available as would be the case with all other assets. None are exclusive to Sark.
It is obvious that if it is being used elsewhere at the time of a Sark emergency, where speed was of the essence or a difficult situation where winching was required, the emergency services would have called in another helicopter!.
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Judging from the state of this debate, a hot air balloon could be very easily be filled and floated from Sark if the wind was in the right direction.
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@Larky,
Love it. lol.
However, if even if just one postitive idea comes out of the debate\ forum, then it has to be worth it.
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The positive idea we need most urgently right now is how to try and persuade the Good Doctor to remain.
If the answer entails the ritual evisceration of the whole of the SEM (BVI) Ltd. and Chief Pleas (Feudally Fundamental) Inc., then I suspect a posse could be raised in short order.
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Alan J,
would that be evisceration by being dropped into the main rotor of a helicopter at take off rpm?
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@Pedro
I am sure that with 450 years of history to call upon – plus access to French creativity in such matters – that there must be many creative options that satisfy traditions rather better than an infernal 21st century machine.
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Send for Torquemada!
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D_A
I was wondering where you get all this time to advise the very good people of Sark as to how they should or should not run there business. Perhaps you should move to Sark if not already in residence ? Gordon ! I am sure after a couple of years you could stand for election and if the people agreed with you, you would surely be elected into the noble CP. Then you might actually make a difference insted of bending the truth to suit your masters will.
You are definitely off my Christmas list.
Now that’s all from me as I have a life.
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Dr Peter Counsell May 2011
Helicopter: Can land at the incident site or winch casualty from inaccessible area e.g. cliff rescue (subject to availability and capability). Not affected by rough sea conditions.
GP 19th October 2011
“an attempt to create a safe, night-time helicopter landing area on the west coast was viewed with enormous hostility by Sark’s planning committee.
Indeed, it is only as a result of some lateral thinking and some temporary lights that SEM has been able to side-step the planners’ attempted blocking tactics and inform Guernsey Air Traffic Control and the Civil Aviation Authority that a safe night-time landing site is available.”
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@DA
The “lateral thinking” was in fact being covered by having Gordon Dawes write a misleading letter about “no development taking place”, complete with some inanely remarks about “sewing” grass.
The chopper captain himself waded in on Jan 20th with:-
“BRECQHOU’S desire to see its helicopter used for Sark medical transfers stems only from its responsibility for visitors staying in its hotels, its pilot has said.”
http://www.thisisguernsey.com/news/2012/01/20/%E2%80%98prime-concern-is-welfare-of-people-staying-in-hotels%E2%80%99/
A site closer to the surgery like the Millenium field (and less prone to coastal wind conditions?) would be more sensible – although nosey Islanders might then be able to watch as reclusive and wealthy SEM hotel guests hobbled on their crutches…
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Sark Tourist
February 16, 2012 at 4:43 pm
Devil’s_advocate
Ok. I’ll try and put my point across in the simplest way I can.
I think our interpretations of a ‘personal attack’ differ.
I took the liberty of trying to find a definitive interpretation :
“..An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it…”
“…Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one’s opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument…”
Therefore the following statement on issue 132 on the 14th February as a response to the Doctors…er…response (how many responses do we need?!) would be just that
…Confidentiality which surely would have been waived if it assisted the Doctor…”
I also find the following quite amusing…
…The idea that the Marine Ambulance or Lifeboat always have to be scrambled when the Doctor is off the Island even for one hour is, with respect, absurd…”
Claire Wiseman makes the mistake that by writing ‘with respect’ that it negates all subsequent slanders. It doesn’t. That’s like saying ‘I’m not raciest but..’ followed by an extremely raciest comment.
Whether or not the articles are a ‘personal attack’ against the Doctor one thing can be agreed upon. His professional conduct and capabilities were put under scrutiny by people not qualified to do so. They then publicised their unfounded opinions rather than asking the Doctor directly for an interview to perhaps answer the questions they had. This was all very aggressive. It is no wonder that the Doctor felt he was being harassed and not able to put forward his reasoning’s for why he took the decision he did. If the SNL genuinely felt there was medical negligence why didn’t they report the Doctor to be investigated? Why did they have to draw their own conclusions, make up assumptions and write a poorly researched article from the safe haven behind closed doors. This is the very definition of bullying. We wouldn’t stand for this in a playground why do we stand for this as adults?
All the editions of the SNL are written with a heavy political agenda, I don’t think that can be denied. But trying to sound like they are uncovering the truth for the people is laughable. There is no case to answer to here. They have done what they have set out to do and have driven a Doctor from the island. Well done them. Now SEM can recruit their own Doctor and hold it over the heads of the Sarkees.
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“His professional conduct and capabilities were put under scrutiny by people not qualified to do so.”
——————-
But surely that is what journalists do, holding people to account, challenging decisions etc.. what about the GP Opinion with:
“In his statement, Sark’s doctor says that in his clinical judgement transfer by sea was appropriate and would not cause harm to his patient.
But would a trip in a helicopter be quicker, more comfortable and therefore better than pounding across the Russel in the lifeboat?”
I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe the editor to be qualified in the medical field!!
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Dear D_A:
None of the names on the masthead of the SNL could be described as “journalists” by any stretch of any imagination but yours. Indeed the SNL has set about mauling the only professional hack on the Island because he is objective and truthful – and right up to and including the present Doctor farrago, has remained painfully neutral – only coming off the fence to defend the principles which he plainly espouses, even though the reptilian SNL does not.
So given Delaney’s offensive and persistent description of certain Island officials as “untrained and unfit” it behoves him to state his qualifications to hold the torch for the “free press”. Especially in light of his clear and apparent self interest as the man that can fire everyone and shut all the businesses.
You do concede “all the editions of the SNL are written with a heavy political agenda,” – but it is a perfectly blunt COMMERCIAL agenda to try and force the elected authorities to make concessions to suit the commercial interests of the SEM BVI Ltd.
To an objective observer, this is a tragic situation that has moved way beyond parody, and your consistent attempts to excuse the SNL are, frankly, shameful.
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Well said Patrick ;-)
More good people are taken notice of the Seige of Sark ‘we aint backin down’
Noddy
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