Lower sentences ‘strike at fabric of our society’
Friday 17th February 2012, 3:00PM GMT.
REDUCING prison sentences for paedophiles would strike at the fabric of our society, the Guernsey Court of Appeal was told yesterday.
Crown Advocate Gary Perry’s comment came during appeals by three men against their sentences for making indecent images of children.
The attempts follow a Court of Appeal decision in July to cut the term of Mark Gunter, who was convicted of the same offence, from 15 months to three.
The court said then that the time had come for Guernsey to adopt English sentencing practice whereby shorter prison terms would be handed down for the offence.
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Voice For Victims
Voice for Victims is a campaign aimed at promoting the rights of those affected by child sexual abuse.
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3 years is too lenient let alone 3 months!
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Can anyone let me know what the Ploice think of this. They spend a great deal of effort catching these people, only to see their efforts in the main be undermined.
It wouls also seem to me, that paedophiles actually have lesser sentences given to them than someone who is caught and sentenced for a Class B drug conviction. Can this really be right!
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Hang the evil sick b*******.
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Hanging is too good for them. I’d prefer torturing them to death.
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Torturing them to death is too good for them. I’d prefer deporting them to Jersey.
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Cue more hysterical OTT reactions…
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Why can one person’s sentence be reduced to 25% of the original term, but another with the same conviction does not receive the same reduction on appeal?
Where in our judicial system is there any kind of system for this? Mind you, if someone can be found guilty on suspicion I guess they can do what they want in the courts.
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Bizarre timing with the current Voice for Victims campaign.
3 months for MAKING indecent images of children. This is so backwards. It really disappoints me we do not take this crime seriously. I am not a fan of drug use including cannabis but those who do smoke a bit of weed are in prison for longer! It does not make sense to me priority wise. What is the point?? For 3 months??
I also have the view that appeals are necessary for true justice. But when the reduction is so small in the sentence and no real miscarriage of justice actually occurred (they are still considered guilty) you would think remorse would create willingness to at least serve that original sentence to show some repentance.
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Just a factual point Dani. I think the press report is wrong with its ’3 months for MAKING…’ I seem to recall that all these three and Mr Gunter did was LOOK not make. A big, big difference IMO. Perhaps thisisGuernsey can put us all right?
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Making is the legal term. Viewing something on your screen is ‘making’, downloading is ‘making’ apparently anything that could be printed out is classed as ‘making’.
None of them took or produced any images, they downloaded or viewed.
One of them didn’t even do that, the only evidence was a thumbs.db file ( a database file) in a file-sharing folder that may have been downloaded alongside music.
A brief search of this forum will show details of all three.
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Rubbish.
Whether they were making or looking it still means there is a child being abused. People looking is why these children’s lives are being ruined.
The courts should hand out excessive sentences for this crime. These people are sick!
There needs to be harsher punishments for this crime.
The people who think this is right obviously do not have children, thank God.
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So by your definition someone viewing video footage of a murder from a far is as bad as the murderer? More warped logic from a member of the the baying mob.
Also get your grammar right. There needs to be harsher punishment or there need to be harsher punishments…
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Martino
Sorry you are wrong about comparing murder to child abuse. The desire to look at such material turns it into a commodity and therefore there is a lucrative demand for it which perpetuates the crimes. Looking at a naked child for self gratification is itself abuse of that child by infringement of their privacy rights and dignity. No question about it.
For a better comparative example, if no one wished to take illegal drugs there would be no drug crimes or need for money laundering.
Those who feel inclined towards this abuse are sick and need help however I am unsure whether it is a curable disease sadly therefore protection of the victims must be safeguarded as the priority.
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Martino.
Do you have children? I doubt it.
This is the sickest act of depravity there is. There is no comparison to murder.
Children should have a happy and safe childhood, to be raped, beaten and abused for perverts like these is terrible.
People found guilty of this kind of offence should go away for a long time, they are not safe.
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NO, I don’t have children, which is why I am able to look at this subject dispassionately and non hysterically. I do agree with you fully, however, that perverts who are guilty of raping, beating and actually abusing children (or anyone else) should be put away for a long long time. However, we are not talking about that here. I don’t know all of the facts (and nor do you) but from what is being reported all that these particular perverts did was to look at images they happened to find on the Internet – without passing them on and without creating or adding to any market for such images. There is a huge difference. Why can’t you see it?
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Martino
For argument’s sake lets put aside the physical elements of abuse for a moment and just look at the issue of sexual voyeurism at a fundamental ethical level.
Many adults (perhaps most) would not wish to be photographed naked by their partner let alone a stranger. Whether they consent or not, most adults would not wish any such photographs to be published for the gratification of any voyeurs. Nevertheless an adult has the maturity to agree or refuse to participate and understands the consequences of his or her actions. Some adults are emotionally able to cope with this self imposed humiliation but many are not and suffer psychological damage possible leading to drug and alcohol abuse. For most the only motivation is the money, some are forced.
In the case of a child it is never possible to consent to any pornographic activity. Most children, even teenagers do not understand the ramifications and are therefore deemed unable to consent. However for all who are subjected, however “minor” the offence, at some stage the penny will drop and the full force of psychological impact will hit them and stay with them for the rest of their adult lives. Research has shown that it is common for this to pervade every area of the individual’s well being. And we are not talking about the kind of depression most people suffer from at some time in their lives we are talking about pervasive debilitating depression and other deep problems which ruin lives.
An ethical question for you, if you decided to buy a top shelf magazine with pretty ladies in it (adult ladies) what would you do if there was a bold disclaimer on the front of the magazine saying ” none of the women featured in this magazine consented to the photographs and politely ask you to preserve their dignity by handing this publication to the police without looking at the photographs”. Would you still open the magazine and look at the pictures?
It is imperative Martino, that you and your ilk are informed of and made to understand the consequences of your ignorance. I don’t mean to seem rude or holier than thou but you are arguing from a very weak moral position and you would do well to inform yourself of the ramifications for the children who are affected by this allegedly harmless voyeurism.
Nevertheless I applaud you for bravely persisting with your unpopular comments as it is this kind of debate which will provide fuel to the voice for victims campaign.
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Let’s make it simple Spartacus. I understand exactly what you say but at the end of it all you offer no practical solution or sense of clarity to the complex matter of sentencing for child porn offences and that is what we are talking about here: sentencing policy.
For me it is easy. Just as with the drugs debate, I am fully in favour of a sliding scale of punishments depending on the severity of the case.
For an offender who actually abuses children and posts the images/circulates them on the Internet then yes. I join you in saying lock them up and throw away the key.
For an offender whose only crime is to search for and find abusive images on the Internet, without joining any group and without passing them on, then that is right at the other end of the offences scale and, for me, a suspended sentence would be right for this type of offender.
Also your porn magazine comparison doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. By buying a magazine you are participating in a market centred on abuse. If you are clicking on an image you find on the Internet and you leave it at that you are not.
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Martino
The campaign suggests that the sentencing should reflect the damage done to the victims plus provide a deterrent. My argument is that by downplaying the crime of looking at pictures you are ignoring these two factors. I have tried to explain explicitly to you where the harm is in merely looking at such material but it seems you are not listening.
Voyeurs should be dealt with (I would say treated rather than punished) and deterred. Voyeurism causes lifelong harm to those children being viewed. Voyeurism IS actual abuse of children. 15 months in jail does not even come close to being termed “justice”.
My concern for those who are minded towards this despicable behaviour is that their compulsion is overwhelming for them therefore they should be separated from society until such a time a cure can be found.
You have sidestepped my question so for arguments sake lets suppose you didn’t buy the magazine but simply found it lying around somewhere – would you look?
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Martino
Believe me I am not being hysterical, if it had been one of my children or a relative then you would see hysterical.
When you have children you will realise how naive you are being.
These people are sick and should be locked away, your argument about looking doesn’t cut. The people that carry out the rapes, abuses etc probably started by looking at pictures and progressed into these disgusting crimes.
What really worries me is that some of these people were working in a hotel where kids are welcomed.
Watch a film called Megan is missing, believe me when I say it is harrowing, how people can do this to children is beyond me.
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The reductions made by the court of appeals makes me sick. These criminals should be serving their sentences 100%. Most of them are serving half their sentence these days. Problem is no one gets their sentences lengthened any more and therefore everyone can appeal with nothing to lose. Everything seems to be aimed at looking after the offenders these days. Punish them more severe, make sure they serve their full sentence and give some peace of mind to the victims.
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We don’t follow the UK’s example in our sentencing for drug importing, so why do we suddenly have to follow their lead in other sentences? It seems a common belief in the UK that sentences for ALL crimes are too light. I’ve heard many foreigners ask what exactly one needs to do to get locked up in the UK.
With the spectre of Jersey’s abuse investigation hanging over us and plenty of people believing that what went on over there happened (and indeed still happens) here, why would our judiciary think this a good idea? People in power were ‘allegedly’ abusing children and are still protecting each other.
I agree that the term ‘making’ images is misleading, because it implies that the images were created here. But taking a copy, especially with a view to trading or passing on, gives people a reason to keep making them. The abused know that those images are still out there giving sick pleasure to endless individuals.
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through away the key, there is no cure for these sick people, what about the poor kids, with there life sentence.
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My natural sympathies lie with the hang’em flog’em brigade but we need to be sensible about this. How would you feel if these pervs, drug peddlers and other criminals get their sentences shredded on appeal and they get nice fat compensation payouts?
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What some of you don’t seem to realise is that in some cases the children die during the making of these videos, or simply disappear of the face of the earth after being used.
They are either taken from their homes upon cash being paid to their parents, or are just snatched from the streets.
So yes you could say some are murdered to satisfy the lust of these men and in order to get their perverted kicks.
If the children do survive, their live are totally ruined and can never lead a normal life.
When I see we are going soft on these men, just to appease the justice system it just shows just how much these Judges are out of touch , and a disgrace to the community.
I know that these offenders come from all walks of life and one just has to wonder who they are amongst us !!!!
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Simple equation – if people did not look at such images on their computers there would be no demand and then no one would make any money out of this disgusting crime = big reduction in number of children being abused to make such imagery. The sentences should therefore be longer in my opinion together with medical intervention to remove such vile urges of the perpetrators themselves. Regretably, child abuse has and will always be prevalent with or without the internet, but it could be dramatically reduced if it could be wiped off the web. As much chance of seeing pigs fly methinks. I am sad that we live in such a vile and sick world. Thank God there is good out there too.
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Martino
We often agree with each other but on this one we depart. The likes of Chris Sharp have been seeking and searching images of children that in the most extreme of cases are likely to be middle age adults having sex with 5 year old children. I’ll say it again male adults having sex with 5 year olds.
This is the most heinous of crimes and although I accept there is a difference from looking and doing; given the nature of the world wide trade and abuse of children – the downloaders are as culpable as the traffikers – zero sympathy for any of them.
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NEIL
Some are less than 5 years, whilst a police officer in the Uk we had to arrest a man who raped an 18 month old baby.
Can you imagine the anger we all felt towards him, he was lucky to be still alive to attend trial and a long term prison sentence.
I am sure that these men get increased pleasure the younger the child is that they are watching on the net in either photos or videos.
That’s how bad it is , so how they can justify reduced sentences appalls me.
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One other thing, the excuse for reducing sentences on the island is to adopt the UK sentencing practise.
It seems to me that the UK could do well to adopt ours instead.
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Yes, totally agree
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JohnT and NEIL, your comments are spot on. As you say the perpetrators of these heinous crimes are middle-aged men – in this case white middle-aged professional men. Mr Sharp and Mr Gunter were hotel managers (and in a cruel ironic twist of hotels that extend a warm welcome to children) and Mr Towers was an accountant. I really don’t see it as a coincidence that those who hold the balance of power in our society and in the judiciary are white, middle-aged professional men. I don’t mean to say at all that they are guilty of the same actions but there does seem to me to be a difference in how these individuals are perceived within the system when compared to the sad young couple recently sentenced for importing drugs. Something is surely going wrong here.
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Donna
You are correct in that most are middle class white professional men, and the same goes for those perverts who get arrested in countries like Thailand for sex offences with under age children.
They all have sufficient wealth to get whatever sexual favours they require of whatever age.
Remember Garry Glitter.
What surprises me is that even after all the publicity and threat of imprisonment they still carry on, but my impression is that they will always have pervert or paedophile tendencies.
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Donna, I don’t know why you are bringing colour into this. These three ‘men’ were white, so what? That is hardly a surprise on an island like Guernsey. I don’t know what you have against white middle-aged professional men but I can assure you that paedophiles come in all shapes, sizes, nationalities and colours. In the UK there are massive foreign populations and, surprise surprise, many foreign paedophiles. All perpetrators are equally foul so please don’t make this a race issue.
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Donna makes a very valid point, you only have to look at Jersey to see how pathetically lenient the judicial system is towards middle class child abusers.
We are pretty much the same over here, remember advocate Havard? Tens of thousands of images on his computer and he was deemed to be unfit to stand trial, despite being a practising advocate at the time. If that’s not a case of the legal profession “looking after their own” then what is?
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Check your facts and be careful before publishing incorrect statements, please. Havard was suffering from dementia, from which he died a few years later in a special hospital in the UK.
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Pillsbury
Are you saying that he wasn’t practising as an advocate at the time the thousands of images were downloaded? I had many professional dealings with him in the 5 or so years prior to his arrest and he certainly didn’t seem to be suffering from dementia at that time, in fact he was one of the better advocates that I used to deal with.
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Read up on Pick`s Disease [esp. symptoms] on the Net – the Wiki page is not as full as some of the more specialised ones.
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Pillsbury
With Phil on this. There was MUCH more history to that case.
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I wish some people would get it into their thick heads that the only cure for these sickos is a bullet in the brains.
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To all who have replied to my posts. I have no idea what these images are like and nor do I wish to know. I’m sure I’d find them repulsive. What I do see is that all of your posts are charged with emotion, mostly anger. I can and do get worked up about other things, as some of you regular posters will know, but on this issue I am not a parent and so, like the appeal judges, I am able to view it from a non emotional, dispassionate and detached position.
It was interesting to hear on Radio Guernsey just now that our prison is full and bursting at the seams. Probably full of paedo voyeurs and low level drug offenders. What do you propose we do? Spend another £50million on a second one or an extension and employ another 50 prison officers. I know what I’d do. Change sentencing policy and keep the existing prison mostly for the really nasty violent offenders and actual abusers/rapists/burglars who violate people’s homes etc etc.
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What will we do about the prison being full? We will carry on with what we have been doing for years. Send them to the mainland. Guernsey people are perfectly happy to use English resources at the expense of the English tax payer, but don’t like it when its the other way round. The recent drug case is a perfect example with people on here demanding they be deported and “why should we pay for their lodgings” etc..
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SS
I’m pretty sure that when we send someone who has been convicted of an offence in a Guernsey Court to the UK to serve his sentence,the Guernsey taxpayer foots the bill for his keep
It probably turns out cheaper in the end because he will serve half of his sentence in the UK but two thirds of his sentence if we keep him here
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Or one third over here if parole is granted at the earliest opportunity I believe.
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Martino
I hear you but with due respect if you had a child steam would be coming out of your ears.
Without question I would say pay the £50M if you have to – keep them locked up and protect society from these menaces. Consider it an investment against future mental health services expenditure and invalidity benefits etc etc.
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Hear hear.
Martino do you remember the Sarah Payne case a few years ago.
This shocked everybody.
She was murdered by a convicted sex offender, her mother fought for and got ‘ Sarah’s Law ‘ which also had the backing of thousands of people who were sickened that the offender was released and allowed to kill again.
Lock them up and throw away the key, there is no place for these people in our society.
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Martino
You really don’t get it do you.
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Martino
Review of the film I told you about in post 5.User Reviews
A Very Underrated and Important Film
11 May 2011 | by jayt217 (United States) – See all my reviews
Unsettling, yes, disturbing, yes. But even though this isn’t the film I thought it would be when i picked it up at my local video store, i was intrigued and mesmerized by what this movie’s subject matter really dealt with. Sure, people are bashing on the film for it’s content because it is, probably the most disturbing film ever made, but even so, I think that those involved in the making of this film weren’t overall trying to make a buck out of a gruesome situation. I think they were passionate about getting the message out there to people who don’t realize, THESE THINGS DO HAPPEN!!!! Sure not every online predator has the intentions that are shown in this film, but to all the haters out there wishing cruel things upon the crew and those involved in the making of this film, completely missed the point of this film. Simply put, believe it or not, there ARE people like the predator depicted in this film out there, and more than likely, a lot more than people realize. This movie truly moved me, and opened my eyes to a truth most of us are unaware of or even consider half the time: the true harshness’s people can be capable of. ‘Megan Is Missing’ is the most real experience of evil, that even Hollywood hasn’t been able to make a film worthy of comparison. I have never felt the feelings I felt while watching the last 22 minutes of this film, and I’m pretty positive I’ll never forget them either. I award this film 10 stars out of 10 because ‘Megan Is Missing is hands-down the most brutally honest, daring, and important film ever made, with a message that exceeds it’s 80-some minute runtime. I believe everyone should see this film, even if you have a weak stomach. As harsh as this film is, it may just save someone’s life.
I could not have put it better myself.
What isn’t said is that the person was putting pictures on the Internet of Megan’s rape, torture and murder to satisfy perverts like these.
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Martino
“Change sentencing policy and keep the existing prison mostly for the really nasty violent offenders and actual abusers/rapists/burglars who violate people’s homes etc etc.”
I’d say that most of my contemporaries who are parents see no difference from looking and doing. In fact the courts agree with this as the crime of downloading is referred to as ‘making’ – I believe the rational being that by receiving these images the downloader is fairly well part of the process.
You can’t actively seek images of terrified toddlers being raped and abused by men and then claim ‘I was only looking’. And the courts agree with that.
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Martino
The penny has just dropped, you are obviously using your laptop inside Les Nicolle.
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LOL Who on earth is Les Nicolle? You may have been inside him but I certainly have not!
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Pillsbury
Nowhere can I find anything that states “downloading tens of thousands of pornagraphic images of children over several years whilst being mentally fit enough to practise as an advocate”. Strange that.
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I suggest you look longer at the symptoms of this condition. The information is available.
Or perhaps this is yet another sinister cover-up by the Establishment, including the dementia-caused death of the protagonist not long after the nefarious scheme was hatched?
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Martino, reading bewteen the lines do you know, or are you related to, either of the two men whose sentence has been reduced?
I remember when one of them was originally sentenced. Some posters developed Stockholm Syndrome and were blindly defending them left right and centre.
One of many question to ask is what search factors did they put into their search engines before viewing the despicable material?
Martino, I wouldn’t worry how other posters are criticising your stance. You’re not the first and won’t be the last who is drawn, Stockholm Syndrome fashion, to unwittingly defend the actions of such low lifes.
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@ Saw Point
A tiny bit of research on your part on this forum would have shown how wrong you are to equate Towers’ case to ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ it was defence of an innocent man (Towers) who was stitched up. Nothing can change the conviction and now nothing can change the decision by the Court of the Appeal of Sentence. They implied they were going to follow UK guidelines and then blatantly did not.
This case stinks, and there’s now nothing anyone can do about it. He was convicted on a 3-6 majority, obviously by your rationale 3 of the Jurats were suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, rather than having reasonable doubt.
Nobody is defending the others convicted for downloading illegal images.
Take a look at the very long thread regarding this case and then spout the rubbish you just did.
Ask yourself how you would feel if you were banged up with actual pedophiles like the disgusting Eugene Hughes, people who had actually hurt and damaged children when you were innocent?
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Jez C
The question of whether a person is innocent or guilty has nothing to do with the debate here which is about sentencing.
It would be nonsense to keep people out of jail just in case there is a miscarriage of justice.
The reference to Stockholm syndrome was highlighted to Martino who clearly feels that those who ARE guilty should not be imprisoned. His main justification for this view is due to the cost of imprisonment which does seem to be a very weak argument.
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Don’t worry Saw Point, I’m not at all related to any of these people and I don’t know them at all – apart from knowing one of them from media reports of his former high profile position in the hospitality industry. Nor do I suffer from Stockholm Syndrome you’ll be glad to know. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever and I don’t defend their actions one iota. I just think the long custodial sentences given to them are out of proportion to their crimes and that this over-sentencing is one of the factors behind our prison overcrowding crisis. That clear enough for you now?
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Pillsbury
Are you seriously suggesting that Havard was suffering from dementia whilst practising as an advocate, not to mention lecturing and writing on issues such as trust law? As I have said previously, I used to deal with him very regularly and never had the slightest suspicion that he was anything other than 100% compos mentis.
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Yes – have you read up on the specific condition? His behaviour was apparently totally in keeping with its slow onset.
Or are you saying he died of, say, cancer? It is NOT a quick onset illnesss, but a non-Alzheimer`s dementia restricted to the frontal lobe. Changes are gradual and over many years. Do you actually know better?
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I can understand the proposition that the mindset of an abuser can be explained by mental illness, this does not excuse any crime as a result of this but perhaps can be helpful towards mitigating the crimes if not curing the “disease”.
The discussion about dementia therefore perhaps helps us to understand how an individual who has led an otherwise respectable life is unable to resist inappropriate urges due to onset of mental health problems which are difficult to detect.
This is highly relevant to the voice for victims campaign which seeks to improve awareness and thereby enhance protection for potential or actual victims. Pillsbury’s comments are therefore very relevant.
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Pillsbury
I don’t claim to know better, but I know that I didn’t see any change in his behaviour during the 3 years that I regularly spoke to him and met with him. And the suggestion that a practising advocate is mentally unfit to stand trial is frankly ridiculous. Do you not think that colleagues and business contacts would have noticed anything?
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It is very normal for several posters on this site to side with anything to do with tampering with children. Filming, watching, sodomizing, dropping legal ages to gain access to a wider pool of children. It is unfortunately gaining popularity as we see from the increased convictions and the views of those, who openly support such things.
Many have explained in very basic terms how damaging fiddling with children is, but it is very clear that some are not interested. It is encouraging that the numbers of people supporting this horrendous crime on this forum has dropped from when it was last aired.
Maybe Zibby has just sown a small seed of doubt in the minds of these people that they might be getting things wrong.
Go Zibby and all who support you!
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Parent I agree with what you said that if people didn’t look then there would be no demand. I just so shocked that the police can not stop these images/films being but on computers. With all tecnology you would of though this could happen?
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I haven’t got time today to catch up on everyone’s posts above so I hope I’m not repeating anything already said, but I’d just like to add (as someone who encountered a few abusers as a child, sadly) that those who just look, those that do it…there’s a broad sweep of people.
Obviously we’re all aware of those who were abused themselves, but of those who abuse many are not doing it to children because they are only drawn to children: they would do it with animals, children, adults…anyone who can be coerced or encouraged into ‘scratching their itch’. Those who ‘only watch’ will include those seeking a new thrill (and we’ve probably all heard how desensitising internet porn can be), those doing it for a laugh, children (sadly) as well as the hardcore seeker.
I know that people have mentioned previously the guy with ‘only something tiny on a thumb drive’. I’m pretty sure that it said in one of the full newspaper articles that the forensic computer expert found lots of search terms that only a ‘deep’ user of child porn would know. Acronyms, etc.
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Jez C. You appear to be one of those middle class people who believe their chums do not commit crime. Drinking and Driving? What’s wrong with a bottle of claret, followed by a good cigar and a drive home to wifey?
Now the unlawful behaviour of the middle classes is extending to other leisure-time persuits such as viewing children being abused on-line.
Another case that intersts me is that of the actor Chris Langham, who is also being defended Stockholm-Syndrome style by his chums in the acting fraternity.
Jec C. Your mate is nothing but a voyeuristic pervert. The Guernsey Justice system found him guilty. Doesn’t matter what the voting balance of the Jurats was, he is GUILTY.
I hope the stigma of being convicted for a Child Sex Offence stays with Towers for the rest of his life. I suggest you and his small circle of chums continue with your self-delusional defence and protect him the best you can.
I suppose if you tell a lie often enough, someone of low-intelligence will fall for it. Don’t they say that love is blind?
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