Education’s plans to review 11-plus system no surprise to deputies
Friday 22nd March 2013, 8:30AM GMT.
A REVIEW of the 11-plus is no shock to deputies for and against selection, they have said.
Education’s new vision document has outlined its intentions to carry out an investigation into the system with a view to bringing proposals to the States next year.
Deputy Dave Jones voted in favour of the successful bid to keep the 11-plus the last time politicians debated the issue in 2001.
‘I’ve never been a fan of a one-size-fits-all philosophy – children grow at different rates and learn at different speeds,’ he said.
However, 11-plus opposer Deputy Mike Hadley, pictured, said Education should have gone further than just committing to a review of the system.
‘I think the 11-plus draws a sharp line where the line is blurred – a comprehensive system would give children a chance to develop and make up lost ground and move up the field,’ he said.
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Our 11 year olds get so upset by the process, they are so aware and feel too much pressure at such a young age. I hope that the island can move away from the 11 plus.
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Sounds like they need a bit of toughening up
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I am inclined to agree, IWV.
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Interesting comments from Ed and IWV perhaps they can offer their expert advice on how they would ‘toughen up’ a child with aspergers.
The 11+ is outdated and divisive. Guernsey should have the guts to overhaul the whole system and ensure that no child should have to go through such an unfair process which leaves many 10 and 11 year olds feeling as if they have failed. Not a good start into secondary school and early adulthood.
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I don’t believe it
I dont think I am a neurotypical myself, yet I toughen myself up through memorising large quantities of information and to attempting to perfect my expression when writing practice essays – it is a stress on the mind, yet it has become the norm.
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…and who is that makes them feel they have failed ?
Pushy parents,that’s who.I think the official line is that each child has been SELECTED for the most suitable seat of learning for their particular needs
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Island Wide Voting
Absolute claptrap.
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IWV
Totally agree with your post at 11.07
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In my experience the children offered a place at either Grammar or College are as upset as the others, normally because their friends are going to a different school.
The parents are the ones who get upset, abuse the teachers, headmaster and other parents for “cheating” by tutoring their children.
It is adult opinions which the children learn from and are stigmatised by.
We may need to change he system to protect the parents.
DA
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Try some discipline in schools and looking at the “Parenting” rather than compromising those that actually have an interest in their children’s education.
Also can we actually have teachers prepared to challenge the children at all levels and push them to achieve rather than let them coast for an easy life on both sides.
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It is a truly awful process and it doesn’t work. My two daughters have both been through the 11+ process and neither were awarded a “special” place at the Grammar School or Ladies College but my husband and I decided to pay for both to go to Ladies College for various reasons – we are not wealthy and it is a stretch financially. My eldest daughter has been predicted a mix of As and A*s for her GCSEs which is significantly more than some of her friends who were awarded a “special” place at the Grammar School. This is a classic example, and I am sure not the only one, that selection at 11 years old does not work as children progress at different stages of their lives.
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Your choice, so what’s your point?
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What exactly is your point…. that your bitter???
GSCEs aren’t a huge test of intelligence and as you get older gaps will become more apparent. Also you cannot comment what they would have got had they not been paid for? Maybe your daughetr is doing better than some who had special places but there are a number of possible reasons, Perhaps if they were at ladies college they would have done even better
Congrats to your daughters though for doing very well.
You say its an awful process but it works for a lot of people
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ShazBob
Have you considered that the standard of education and probably discipline at the Ladies College, even compared to the Grammar School, is what has brought on your daughters so well?
Sparty,help out here.Was Ladies College just as good in the old days?
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Island Wide Voting
Shazbob is right.
“All the evidence regarding comprehensive schools – and there is a lot of it – shows that the top 25% of students achieve just as well as they would have in a grammar school, but the rest do better than they would have done in a secondary modern”
Mulkerrin 2012
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Does the fact that you have paid for your girls to go to Ladies College not demonstrate that you are in favour of selective education but by a different route?
I am not knocking it, just asking. If I could afford to pay for private here in the UK then I certainly would but £12k per year x 2 is just way out of my league.
I do wish we had Grammar schools here in Sussex though.
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Well said Nick. I don’t blame anyone for paying for an education if they think it will help their children. What I do find strange though are folk who pay to take advantage of selective education and yet in the same breath clamour for its removal.
Perhaps ShazBob could clarify – is she against selective education or just the 11+ system? If the former then I’m afraid her argument lacks credibility; if the latter I’m interested to know what form of selective education she would prefer?
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fed up with bitter parents!!!! The arguement is too often about passing and failing not whether splitting students by ability helps the majority. As long as the child goes on to be the best that they can be who cares!
Pressure on the students invariably comes from the parents so maybe they should look in the mirror.
I could understand the old arguements given unfair facility differentials but apart from La Mare the situation has reversed.
I will be proud of my children just for being them
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But if the individual was truly gifted then they wouldn’t achieve their full potential if they went to a ‘normal’ secondary school. With retrospect, I don’t believe that I achieved my full potential whilst at secondary school due to the lack of intellectually stimulating material and inability to exercise all of my skills due to restrictive multiple choice examinations in certain subjects and the fact that examination questions were created in the knowledge that less able students would be answering them.
The issue is that an individual who believes that they are being hindered from demonstrating their skills due to the nature of examinations and the curriculum being taught attracts scorn from others or is mocked behind their back.
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So bascically your saying that your gifted and that school didn’t push you enough.
Sorry i don’t by this blame someone else society, you make of life what you want and if you don’t don’t lifes opportunities its no ones fault but yours.
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Why not blame it on the education system ? They should have the ability to realise that some students need more intellectually stimulating material than others in order to allow them to flourish.
I tried to make the most out of such subjects and examinations, yet the problem was that the examinations were in some cases under- stimulating and some were so simple that a 7 year old could answer the questions. I don’t see the point in being asked to write the number 35957 in words, for example- yes there was an incredibly similar question to that on the maths exam paper ! Nor do I see the point in 1 mark questions I which you have to make a simple observation from a diagram.
The history exam, however, was quite challenging.
It’s also a very sorry state of affairs if examiners don’t like the fact that students are inclined to intellectualise answers by making unusual comments that derive from highly critical thought.
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Yes i agree with you last paragraph Ed, it is delicate balance for some students, especially those who are of a more sensitive nature; they want to demonstrate their skills but at the same time are inhibited by their desperation to “fit in” with their peers and not wanting to attract unwanted attention, especially mockery. Lunch time can be hell for some students.
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What were you grades in tehse easy exams?
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Only two bs, but that illustrates the issue of certain examinations as, if the mark scheme took into account that some candidates put forward perceptive, interesting ideas, one may be able to do better. But no, the exam boards expect answers that everyone should be able to get- its highly unfair for some people since they are prevented from truly flourishing intellectually.
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Ed
I empathise with everything you have said.
In a comprehensive system you would have been schooled alongside a greater number of like minded individuals and you would have been able to share ideas and share classes/group studies which would have stretched you more.
I also believe that in greater numbers, studious types like you would have more influence towards inspiring others.
A comprehensive system of equality should be a starting point and every concern can be addressed within that framework.
I gather that even the exam testing process is under review in the new vision so who knows what else they can consider to measure understanding and education standards.
I hope you will be submitting your feedback on the report to the education department (before 22 April)?
Spartacus
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The problem with intellectual types “inspiring others” is that it rarely works in the way that you want it to. Usually intellectual quirky types inspire others to point out their “quirkiness” in order to humiliate, embarrass and make their lives a misery- for example how some persons on these forums have treated both Spartacus and Ed in the past.
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Rachel
These types of people don’t have to ‘inspire’ others- they should just be at a ‘special’ institution where they can become even more knowledgable on their subject of expertise and discuss their interests with others of the same ilk.
I know that this is far from egalitarianism, but it will ensure that their unique style of intellect is not marred. They will also be free from harassment.
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Rachel
The PISA evidence suggests otherwise! Not all intellectual types are quirky and mixing of abilities works in the colleges.
People who “humiliate, embarrass and make others lives a misery” probably need professional help. Schools should have zero tolerance of any poor conduct which affects other children.
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Well this debate settles one point – Ed and Spartacus are definitely not the same people as some have suggested: Ed is clearly in favour of selective education whilst Sparty is most definitely not.
Now, if only solving all this islands problems were that simple…..
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It seems that Ed’s frustration at the lack of stimulus at St Sampsons High ( and even now to some extent at the 6th form)all stemmed from his / his parents’ decision to opt out of the 11+
Had he taken it he might well have spent those wasted years at Elizabeth College among many of his equals and betters on an onwards and upwards path to Oxford or Cambridge
I suppose there could be many personal or family reasons why someone would wish to opt out but if it was for Spartacus-like political dogma reasons then you reap what you sow
Still wish Ed all the best and once he has bagged his History degree I hope he will practice his art within the island
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Does the 11 plus system cost more money or less than a comprehensive one? (this should also take into account any monies spent on the costs of remedial education, advanced education costs, the link centre and other costs which may be filtered out to another institutions budget). This is a highly emotive topic and there is going to be perfectly reasonable arguments going both ways; either decision is not going to please everyone. It may be best to view the two systems in solely financial terms.
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Unfortunately those that shout loudest (those with an axe to grind) ar ethose most often heard
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Reading the above and previous debates here the matter that arises is not actually the 11+ system but the quality of education in the schools. Is it this that really needs to be addressed?
Commenting on education on the mainland. There is a mixed bag of schools but we alls strive to be good because inspections are robust with little announcement. Programs for gifted and talented as well as SEN in mainstream education. Traking of data from entry level i.e. not that from an 11+ but KS2 data.
The island has to divide the students after primary education. The sitting of an entrace exam and parents paying fees are what some choose to do. It’s private education.
The issue seems to be that if you only pass to Grammar or ‘fail’ to a secondary you are given a 2nd rate education. These are not my words but what I summarise from previous posts. I might also point out that comparing two children by age is not a basis for comparism.
Like it or not children will be set by ability at school, in Guernsey they are set by ability by the school they attend and then in the school. Would it be fair to say that it’s the actual exam that is the problem? Toughen kids for the future might be helpful but not all children realise their potential in this manner.
Regardless of the solution, there has to be one that the island is happy with. Spend the time and money on ensuring the education in the buildings are first class for all regardless of establishment.
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I agree with some of your comments but I feel some clarification is needed.
The quality of education in Guernsey schools is higher than the UK. Guernsey is now looking at setting the benchmark higher, at a global level.
I agree with programs for gifted and talented as well as provisions for SEN should be catered for within mainstream education. however I don’t agree that it is necessary to divide children after primary education, in fact in Finland for example their formal education is from 7 -15 with no gap at 11 or at any stage. They took the decision to abolish private fee paying schools 40 years ago and that decision paid off.
I don’t agree that Guernsey’s high schools get a second rate education, however the children do suffer this stigma, as you have clearly demonstrated.
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Spartacus
On what evidence do you base tbe statement ‘ tbe quality of education in Guernsey schools is higher than the UK’ ?
Also are you suggesting that Guernsey could achieve a better education system if it outlawed private education altogether?
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Charley
My statement is subjective and debatable however, if you want to challenge what I have said, maybe you should show me the evidence that the quality of education in Guernsey is not higher than the UK :)
Yes it will be a great day for Guernsey when private education is abolished. This step is essential for an optimal comprehensive education system.
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I don’t believe that to be true across the whole of Guernsey. Perhaps you could supply the data which supports this?
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Spartacus, many thanks for taking the time to read my response. Could you clarify that there is no streaming in Finland? Also can you quantify how the decision has paid off? Not wanting to pick holes but I like forward thinking in education.
Regarding the 2nd rate education. Do you teach? When were you in the classroom last? These are genuine questions as I do not know you. I was educated on the island. My primary education was poor but that was admitted to at the time and that particular school saw significant change. I enjoyed my post 11 education but I would be hard pushed to say that it was first class.
As a teacher I have streamed classes. Then we have starting points and predicted end points. I have to plan for SEN, G&T, EAL etc and if results are not good I am accountable. Is there such a system in Guernsey?
I have read that the Grammar and colleges achieve good results because of behaviour. They have the luxury of removing a student if behaviour is bad. That shouldn’t be a reason for any other student anywhere underachieving.
The debates I see here are pleasing as education is complex!
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Mainland teacher
My understanding is that as a general principle there is no streaming in Finland schools and selection is prohibited. This philosophy of equality led to Finland gaining a reputation as one of the best education systems in the world.
I’m not a teacher and my personal feelings about education standards locally is based on personal experience from my own education as a special place holder at one of the grant maintained colleges and comparing this with the delivery of education to my child who currently attends a high school. This is subjective of course.
In my child’s school I gather they have mixed up some of the classes which were previously streamed and this seems to have reduced disruption.
I think lower disruption levels might be one of many reasons why the overall exam results are higher in the Colleges and Grammar but I don’t feel that is an indicator of the standard of education delivered in those schools. It is an example of lack of equity as the cost of lower disruption in those schools is borne by the High schools who have consequently higher concentration of disruption levels. These conditions arise as a direct consequence of the selection process.
Further reading which backs up my comments on Finland:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
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Mainland Teacher
I think it would be a good idea if a program for gifted and talented individuals was implemented over here. I am inclined to agree with you that education at secondary schools in this island is second rate- I have had first hand experience of incompetent/halfhearted teachers who give in to the students demands, give them the choice of doings work or not and don’t take matters particularly seriously. In fact, I could write a book about it- that would truly expose the folly of local secondary education at certain schools.
Those deemed intelligent at comprehensive schools, in my opinion, become disadvantaged academically since they mix with those students with an average degree of intellect and are taught in a less intellectually stimulating environment. They also attract persecution from the no-hopers who- quite frankly- will go on to do nothing particualrly good in life. I have extensive experienced-based knowledge of them as well. Out of the five years that I spent at a comprehensive school, every single year was characterised by at least two classes per day in which there was severe disruption.
At least I know all the mistakes not to make when I become a teacher- a teacher of history, that is…
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Ed
St Sampsons High, which you attended is not a comprehensive school. It is a secondary modern and the cohort has been segregated so that the top 25% performers at 11+ do not generally attend the High schools. There are exceptions, yourself being a prime example, because I gather you opted out of 11+, correct me if I’m wrong.
The Colleges are a better indicator of a comprehensive cohort where pupils of all abilities learn together and by doing so achieve exceptionally high standards because the expectations are raised to the level of the high performers. In mixed ability cohorts disruption is diluted and therefore minimised.
This is why I endorse comprehensive schools.
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Spartacus.
Which school did you attend to get a knowledgable education background into secregation of school performances?
Teachers access each childs ability through each school stage and will encourage them to do well.
11+ and border line is the confusing factor into higher education.
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Islander
I’m not sure I understand your question but by definition comprehensive schools do not select their intake. All Guernsey schools select their intake and that is a published fact rather than knowledge I acquired at school.
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Charley
I agree homeschooling encompasses many different lifestyles, most of which are perfectly fine. This video portrays one way of doing it.
Home education, what’s that all about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJTxIBkxTX8
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There you are Spartacus
A bird’s eye view of the sort of dumbing down you are so eager to introduce
At least everyone would be equal I suppose
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Island Wide Voting
Clearly you had not read my post above when you posted your comment. Are you suggesting the Guernsey grant maintained colleges are dumbed down?
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Spartacus
Yes ,I understand your correct definition of a College and a Grammar school as true comprehensives because of the mixed abilities and a high school as a Secondary Modern ( albeit also with mixed abilities)
I admit that I occasionally forget that definition as I’m sure many Guernsey people do
No, I do not think that our Colleges are dumbed down .. exactly the opposite in fact,but they certainly will be if your evil plan ever sees the light of day
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Spartacus
The difference is the Colleges and the Grammar school will not tolerate disruptive behaviour. Any child being consistently disruptive would be removed.
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Neil Forman
You are on comedy form! Removed and sent where?
Perhaps all disruptive students should be sent to the colleges if they are so proficient at dealing with disruption.
Hilarious comment.
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Neil
I think the disruptive behaviour at the Grammar School worsens when pupils from other schools join the Sixth Form. I have had several first-hand experiences of disruptive behaviour preventing the entire class from learning thus far. Undoubtably, there will be more…
That’s why it is important to create an institution for gifted individuals as they can learn without such disruption. I am far more productive with concern to work when I am at home as I don’t have any irritating people around to divert my attention.
If it is not viable to create an institution for gifted people then one needs to be far more rigorous when selecting people wishing to go to the Sixth Form as that will ensure that there are no individuals who are only going there because they want to avoid a full time job for a few years etc.
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That’s even worse coming from an individual wanting to be a deputy.
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Ed you would like to see an institution for gifted pupils in part to get away from those who cause disruption which i sympathise with. But what about the others who are not as gifted but willing to work hard? do we place them in an institution away from those who are disruptive? or is it just the gifted that should be awarded such places?.
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@ Spartacus
Is it not the case that a continually disruptive pupil at Grammar or College may eventually be expelled and then go to one of the high schools?
This cannot happen at the high schools because they have to be educated somewhere.
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bcb
A lesson we must all learn at some stage is that the world does not revolve around our personal requirements. Selective education suggests that it does so what do you expect?
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Ed
Lets be honest. Its very clear that you are a unique individual with unique needs. Education systems on a small island simply cannot be designed to cater for unique individuals.
Please be assured that this comment is not intended to be remotely mocking or patronising, just an observation based on your posts.
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Neil Forman
I totally agree with your comment at 12.02 am today. It is a massive issue. Spartacus doesn’t seem to think so, but then again Spartacus is always commenting from the vantage point of another planet.
Yes – disruptive children will be excluded from the Colleges and the Grammar School. Why? Because there is somewhere for them to go if they aren’t interested in knuckling down to a tougher academic regime. Why should scholarship places be wasted on them! Why should the Colleges continue to accept the school fees paid by the parents if its clearly a waste of money and time?
So – where does that leave the high schools? Answer – full of all the island’s disruptive children. The high schools cannot exclude them as there is nowhere else for them to go, so they are allowed to rot the school like a cancer. Crucially, the parents are not held accountable in any way, and so we end up with an insurmountable problem.
Until and unless disruptive children are completely excluded or, more likely, completely isolated from the rest of the schools, then it will remain a totally unsolvable problem, and guarantees the continuation of the status quo.
Lack of discipline at home, coupled with lack of any effective disciplinary controls at schools, are the root cause of this massive problem. What’s the solution? Answers on a postcard.
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Nick Le P
Exactly, that’s why Neil’s comment was absurd. He highlighted the essence of the problem.
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GM
Are you Hitler?
School is compulsory, it is illegal to ban children from receiving an education. You would prefer these children were roaming the streets I presume. You’ve got all the blame worked out and you demonise other people as usual but you still have no understanding whatsoever of the problems and still no solutions to offer.
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Actually, (and outside the context of this exchange) school is not compulsory. Education however is, whether by means of school or otherwise.
http://www.educationotherwise.net/
UK site but law essentially the same in Guernsey
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Spartacus
Don’t be so stupid. I don’t want to exclude them from school. I just want their parents to be made accountable and to take responsibility, and for the schools to have more powers to apply appropriate standards of discipline, unlike the crazy situation that we have today. What exactly is your problem with that?
Where’s your solution? You just want to ignore it altogether and make excuses for the disruptive children. That’s nothing other than a grand cop-out. Meanwhile, without a solution, absolutely nothing will change.
Meanwhile, parents will bust a gut to avoid sending their child to any school where disruptive children are such a huge problem.
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Yvonne Burford
Thanks for the correction of my slip up, and for noting the context in which I made that comment.
I did actually discuss the virtues of home schooling in a post yesterday, here:
http://www.thisisguernsey.com/news/2013/03/21/11-plus-faces-review-as-part-of-education-overhaul/#comment-253220
I was hoping to hear more of your views on education this morning but alas the phone in was dominated by um, rubbish!
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GM
How would you go about making parents responsible and accountable?
There are several proposed solutions to attention and behaviour problems in the vision videos.
I’m not sure whether the problem is huge as you seem to think. However my solutions for interim measures before 11+ is abolished would be
1) The colleges should not be allowed to exclude a student all schools should play by the same rules.
2) Find out what is causing the child to be disruptive and take appropriate action in relation to underlying problems.
3) Consistent zero tolerance for all bad behaviour, swearing, bullying in schools.
4) As many teaching assistants as necessary to enforce zero tolerance measures.
5) Only remove children from school as a last resort if there is a risk of harm to someone.
6) Parents should never have the option of a situation where their children can avoid others. That is divisive and stigmatising and helps no one. I thought you were in favour of early life lessons?
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Spartacus
I don’t have the answer. But its one that you and any other anti-selection supporters are gong to have to solve if the status quo is to change.
You forget that the Colleges in particular can exclude anybody they like, along the lines of “no thanks, we don’t wish to accept your fees or your child any more”. That’s the prerogative of a fee paying school. Others would withdraw their own children if the disruptive elements remain.
You suggest zero tolerance, which I agree with, but how does it get enforced? What’s the punishment/deterrent for those who continually breach the zero tolerance limits? Sending them to stand in the naughty corner or saying “Johnny, please don’t do that”, is hardly going to have the desired effect. So what’s your solution?
I am indeed in favour of life lessons, but not when the cost of that lesson is the disruption of the education of those committed to learning.
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GM
You post at 10.35 is a very good question.
Spartacus
How can teachers, classroom assistants bring the disruptive children into line?
I have spoken to teachers who taught me and are very upset about the lack of control they have.
One has had a child stand toe to toe with him goading him into reacting because he is untouchable and the teacher will lose his job. It all boils down to a lack of respect.
Do we let this type of behaviour continue? Or do we tackle it?
How can you have zero tolerance when the child is untouchable?
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Thankfully an evidence based report is underway and will be brought to the states next year.
Your comments about the college exclusions is exactly why they should not be supported with pubic funds and illustrates just one valid reason why they should be abolished.
I’m not an expert but as a parent my strategies have been successful when the child’s needs are also met. I’m guessing there is always a reason for children being disruptive. Every incident should be acknowledged and followed through according to the procedures in place. It is for the adults to work out the causes and formulate solutions. Ignoring bad behaviour is neglect.
Life lessons and the problems/behaviours of others are an integral part of education.
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Neil
Once again – spot on. This is precisely the problem.
Spartacus
What a ridiculous comment about the Colleges. Try removing those very heavy sacks of spuds from your socialist shoulders.
You now admit that you’re not an expert and also that you are guessing. In that case you may wish to stop inferring that you know it all.
The problems of others may well be part of life’s learning, but not when the effect of those problems of others disrupts everyone else’s education. Can you not see that?
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Neil Forman
I have given some ideas above but I’m not an expert and I suspect the schools do their best.
I suspect the problem is exaggerated which is a shame because apparently this causes scaremongering amongst parents who will make enormous sacrifices to avoid a situation which they perceive will be detrimental to their children. It’s silly.
Imagine if all the children of lawyers, doctors, and other top professionals went to State schools. Just imagine how their power and influence would cause rapid intelligent solutions to these problems and rapid improvements generally. There is a wasted opportunity due to the structure we have.
Some teachers seems to automatically command respect and I suspect that the children who are disruptive are not the confident ones. Both of these angles could be (and probably are) tackled humanely.
Perhaps there is too much emphasis on trying to control children. Perhaps there should be more emphasis on creativity and finding ways to positively motivate children.
Clinging to old fashioned ideas which have been proved ineffective will not work. It’s crazy to do the same things over and over again expecting a different result. Change is needed and change is coming,.
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GM
Of course I’m not an expert! None of us are we are just saying what we think. Perhaps you should be removing the swastika from your shoulders.
One of the general objectives of social policy plan is
“maximising learning opportunities for all to achieve the four outcomes of the Guernsey Curriculum –
successful learners, confident individuals,
responsible citizens, effective contributors.”
That’s four outcomes not one! The first of these “successful learners” applies to everyone equally. Respecting this equal right is part and parcel of the remaining 3 outcomes.
You say “The problems of others may well be part of life’s learning, but not when the effect of those problems of others disrupts everyone else’s education.”
The problems of others affect and disrupt us all continually. We are all in it together because we are a society we are not in the wild. Surely the problems of any child are problems which should be shared by society as a whole and a vulnerable child especially should not be isolated and penalised for their problems.
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Spartacus
The sheer naivety of your last posts to Neil Foreman and myself is breathtaking. Do you think that the world is all pink and fluffy and that that all the social disruption issues can be solved with a group hug?
I’m genuinely offended at your inferences to Nazis and swastikas. Just because I want to see proper levels of discipline in schools? I suggest that you tread very carefully before repeating such references otherwise the gloves really will be well and truly off. That is a line, just like racism, which you would be very foolish to cross again.
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GM
You sound like you need a group hug ;)
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Spartacus
I am intrigued that you advocate comprehensive education and yet recognise the virtues of home education. In many ways home education is the most selective and elitist of all education options, as it focus entirely on the needs of the individual child in a way that no school based education system ever could and is totally in the hands of the hands of the parents. Some of whom may conceivably spend a small fortune on resources, tutors etc and be just as ‘pushy’ as any of the parents who pay for private school education.
Home Ed is a valid option and works for many families but it encompasses a diverse range of approaches and is in many cases a last resort for children who have been failed by school based education; and that includes those failed by comprehensive schools!
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Spartacus
Not from you I don’t.
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Ed
Behaviour is a challenge to educators as poor behaviour will manifest in many different forms. If work is too challenging or not challenging enough.
It seems that behaviour is an issue in high schools? Do schools have an internal exclusion system? Often poor behaviour that sends the student home is a reward. They have a lie in and then spend the day on an Xbox etc It might not be financially wise for each high school to have these but one centrally managed? The more significant behaviour then referred to a PRU? We cannot remove students with poor behaviour and not allow them an education. Remove the reward and improve the behaviour. It works, I have only taught in behaviourally challenging schools.
I’ve probably stated that I am not in support of the 11+ but the fear is that it is ripped out with no real thought of a replacement that is beneficial to all.
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The education will make the wrong decision like normal.
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bcb
The gifted should be awarded with a special institution that fully accommodates their needs, but really hard working individuals- if they wish to- can go there as well. However, I mean really hard working pupils- ones that will do at least 2 hours of independent study per day and have a passion for their subject.
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Ok Ed fine but what do we do with all those that are left i.e. the disruptive and those who are not willing to learn and then of course those that are but are really struggling?.
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bcb
We isolate those who are disruptive and have no intention of learning from the education system until such a time that they change their ways and keep those who struggle, but want to learn, in the high schools.
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Actually, no, I wouldn’t have them excluded from the education system. They will remain at school, but they will be forced to do work after having discussions with child psychologists as this will, theoretically, address the core of the issue.
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Ed where are you in your teacher training? After a few years of teaching I think you will have a re-think about this one. Disruptive and no intention to learn? There is always a reason, sometimes it is the individuals fault but mostly not.
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Mainland Teacher
Sorry for not responding to your post done on the 24th of March quick enough. Anyway, I know that the modern secondary schools over here have both an internal and external exclusion system for dealing with serious misdemeanours, yet I don’t think it is an effective punishment since it merely enables the pupil to spend time off school doing what they please.
You’re right, there are reasons for poor behaviour, which need rectifying. In order to address behavioural issues at St Sampson’s High, members of staff trained to deal with such problems help the students through psychological/emotional support.
I don’t know a lot more than that since I am still a student myself. I am doing my AS Levels, in fact. I intend to teach history.
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I cannot believe that people are arguing AGAINST the removal of the 11+ on the basis that it is necessary to segregate those who want to work academically from those who are disruptive!
In many cases these pupils will have become disruptive influences in the highschools because they were labelled as failures at age 11, split away from peers they have grown up with who could have been positive influences in their school lives, and are then thrown into their new school where the only way they can make their mark is by being the class clown / bully…
I think you scaremongers will find that a lot of the problems you are afraid of are by-products of the 11+ and will actually be significantly reduced if we create a properly integrated comprehensive school system, structured in a way that fits in with our small island community.
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L’Eree Lad
Let’s examine those comments.
Who has “labelled them as failures”? The parents, not the system.
You say that their peers could have been positive influences on them, yet you fail to mention the equal probability that the disruptive ones could have been a negative influence on their peers and held them back.
I don’t agree at all with your final paragraph. The social divides are far too great. The home environments of the disruptive elements are what they are, and Education will never be able to solve those deep-rooted social hurdles.
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GM
Absolute rubbish
The children are asked to list their choice of school and if they do not “pass” the test they do not have a choice. It’s cruel.
Why are you peddling this stigma that the High schools are full of disruptive pupils? How the hell would you know?
I know because I have first hand experience and I can tell you it’s not true that studious pupils are held back in High schools.
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Spartacus
For crying out loud, you seem to be the ONLY person on this blog who is in denial about the extent of the disruptive pupil issue! Wake up and smell the coffee. Your mate Ed is telling you that. Sean McManus as a very experienced teacher is telling you that. And so is everybody else who is contributing to these posts. Yours is one lone voice. What does that tell you?
What do you say to the fact that no more than 10 years ago, and it may well be happening today, parents of some children were putting down their choice of school for their child as 1) Les Beaucamps, 2) Grammar, 3) Elizabeth College? And that is absolute FACT re two families well known to me, and yes, they were a family who had been States House tenants for at least three generations. They had absolutely no ambition for their children, who were expected to follow exactly the same path as their parents and siblings. Look around you – this is a sizeable trait in Guernsey.
I have not said that “studious” pupils are held back in High schools. I have said that more academic pupils are held back. Not necessarily the same thing at all.
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GM
I’m not in denial! There is a disruption issue in every school! You seem to be in denial about that. Sean McManus is posturing for political pressure to improve teaching conditions and yes of course more money should be invested in this area, how much money do you want us to throw at it GM? Lets eradicate poverty, psychological trauma and therefore mitigate disruption in schools and lets just send the bill for all that to GM c/o Cuckoo land. Then we can get on and abolish 11+.
Why the hell would anyone who has a first choice of High school enter into 11+? What is the cause of lack of ambition? Is this reality or your perception based on “some people you know”? If this is the case is this really the status quo you would like preserved? If this really is a sizeable trait in Guernsey why are you not campaigning to shift that culture?
Future potential entreprenurs, academics, genius scientists and artists, all Guernsey superstars sent off from school to do basic menial jobs. How is that going to benefit the island? Or do you buy into the dogma that only the wealthy are capable of academic success?
GM, there is evidence from PISA which tells us that EVERYONE is academic if given the right environment and support. That is why I used the word studious, because not everyone is studious if they have not been given the right support to be so.
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Going a little off tangent here….GM you’re right that parents must hold accountability however as your examples illustrate this is often a generational issue. Low self-esteem and aspiration more often than not breed the same. That being the case, many parents in that situation cannot be relied upon to effect the necessary changes – it’s never been modelled to them so how can they possible model it to their children?
Trying to get people out of the benefits culture is not only ethically the right thing to do, it is also economically prudent but if we want to get people out of the benefits culture someone has to stop the rot. If as discussed parents can’t do it who will?
I don’t agree with Sparty that a fully comprehensive system is the solution but I agree with her principle that society should take some responsibility and an obvious place to start is the school. Education should work very closely with other services as part of a wider social policy, something their vision statement suggests is part of the plan. A good example where this is already happening is the scheme where industry professionals visit schools to help children with reading. It would be good to see more initiatives like this where different organisations and the business community get involved.
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What a load of absolute nonsense, get yourself down to the beach and eat some more vraic.
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Spartacus
Your 10.46am post completely sums you up.
You are incapable of accepting the reality of Guernsey’ sizeable “underclass” and the effect that it has on the high schools. All you can see is your sheer hatred of the Colleges and the Grammar school. Typical socialist anti-elitism, “If I can’t have it then nobody else will”.
The problems stem from the parents. Again, wake up and smell the coffee instead of pretending that its due to other evil forces.
Why would I be “campaigning to shift that culture”? I’m not a socialist and its not my job to do that.
As for your penultimate paragraph, what on earth are you talking about? Are you oblivious to all the talent produced by all of our schools over the past 30-40 years?
The system works. It isn’t broken.
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GM
The language you are using has moved away from rationality and sensible debate. You are sounding desperate actually. This is an internet forum and I disagree with 11+ keep it in perspective.
I simply cannot understand why you would want to support a culture of low ambition. You have attacked those on benefits and young pregnancies enough to prove you don’t want that culture. You are therefore very inconsistent.
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Spartacus
No, I’m not desperate at all. Apart from being a taxpayer I no longer have any vested interest in education. However it doesn’t stop be being committed to trying to stop this island from making huge mistakes.
You say “keep it in perspective”. Well, you currently submit about 4 posts to every one of mine, so please listen to your own advice. If anybody is coming across as desperate, it’s you.
There is nothing “inconsistent” about my views. I don’t “want” to support a culture of low ambition. However, I wish to protect those who have high ambition. I am also not naive. I accept the reality that some people simply do have low ambition, and they can be catered for better by improving the high schools, rather than by dismantling the Colleges and Grammar school.
Yes, I think Guernsey has made a huge mistake in blindly following the UK’s excessive social welfare system, being far too keen to reward those who have no interest in working, and those who want to produce baby after baby in their teens on order to get up the social housing list. How anybody can defend this ridiculous state of affairs is well beyond me. Is it making Guernsey a better place? Of course not.
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Minor Prophet On A Bike!
I haven’t been bothered to trawl through the many threads about this [11 plus] again, but…
…”underclass”?
That pretty much sums up every argument against the current system, “GM”.
(“GM” may not have used that term “underclass” first in these threads in any form previous to the one closest to my mouse, so the quote is as attributable elsewhere (but Ctrl-F on this page says otherwise))
GM seems to be happy with a system that has created and nurtured an “underclass”. Do you really mean “underclass”? You seem to imply that the existence of an “underclass” justifies the perpetuating of selection into an “overclass” and an “underclass” when children are only eleven years old. At what stage does this system shift to seven years old, or five, or by family name?
There has never been any doubt, anywhere, the nature of peer group competition: that high achievers do better when mixed with similar, that disruption is disruptive. There has never been any argument against the reputation that years of above ‘average’ academical results within the bricks-and-mortar-of-a-school leads to parents desiring that environment for their progeny.
Bravo for stating the obvious.
Where the argument, that I’m stemming from “GM”‘s post fails, is this inate belief that she (but probably he) can judge one child from another simply from an hour or so of testing using discredited methods within a biased society.
Not only does the eleven plus fail as an academic standard, but the mentality of those that shout loudest in its favour are the ones that: choose all of three
1: hate children being children
2: despise the word “social”
3: look twice, then point and sneer, and comment- at great volume- to your ‘friend’ who’s wife/husband is well-connected; at those deemed ‘unfortunate’, poor, have that [surname], because ‘they’ are not like ‘us’.
If a society can’t cope with socially disruptive children, it is not the childrens’ fault. The reason there is a perception of a ‘disruptive underclass’ within any generation of children, that “can only get worse”, is because of bigotted nonsense peddled by ill-educated, mostly well-heeled, but ideologically-fixated elitists.
That’s not an opinion. It is evidence based. Quite clearly.
The fact that any child does not achieve as best they can (are you the judge of that?) is all of our faults.
Education is not school, it is life.
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CR
I’ve been trying to remember where I have seen that twaddle before.I believe it was in a little red book produced by an (in)famous Chinese leader in the 60′s
Not an exact copy but well done you for translating it so well
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Ceguatory Rapture
An interesting post.
For the record, I’m not at all happy that there is an “underclass” in Guernsey. But unlike many others, I’m not afraid to admit that it exists. And yes, it is getting worse. I grew up with many friends who lived in some of the worst housing estates, and I am still friendly with them now. The stories that they tell me about what the kids get up to are frightening. And before anybody jumps on their high horse – no it is not limited to the housing estates, and yes it is an over-generalisation. There are many families on these estates who live their lives impeccably, but they get tarred with the same brush.
These “feral” kids have no chance. They come from broken homes, The mothers often have several children from several relationships. There is no parental influence at home (at least not positive influence). These children do go to school. They go to the high schools. They are certainly not the only disruptive children.
I have said frequently on similar threads that the high demand for fee-paying places at the Colleges is because parents are desperate to not have to send their children to that environment. I don’t care how unpolitically correct a statement that is. It is the absolute truth and there is no point in hiding it. Others can tiptoe around it, but I’m saying it. Sorry if you don’t like it.
If you go back over threads from a year or so ago, you will see that I was advocating a 13-plus, to ensure that those children who “failed” the 11-plus for whatever reason had a second opportunity to relocate to the Grammar School based on two years of schooling assessment at the high schools. I think Spartacus poo-pood that on the grounds that the poor little darlings would have to make new friends again, completely overlooking the huge benefits for that child in getting to the “right” school for them. Better late than never.
For the record:
1. I don’t “hate children being children”. I simply hate the unruly, feral children that our society is producing today, caused not by the children themselves but by parents who couldn’t care less.
2. I don’t “despise the word social”. I just detest socialism and all that it stands for.
3. That is not me at all. Just because I’m prepared to talk about how Guernsey society happens to be, does not mean that I condone it at all. The sooner that people admit and accept the reality of what the island has become, the better. Why cover it up?
There is not a “perception of a disruptive underclass” in Guernsey. There is a reality of a disruptive underclass. Its there,staring us all in the face, We can pretend that its not there but that is not going to make it go away, no matter how much you would like it to.
Just like alcoholism, denying that there is.a problem means that it will never get addressed. As I have said repeatedly to Spartacus, the 11-plus system is 100% safe until there is clear evidence that the high schools can deal effectively with disruptive children. The second hurdle of whether the 11-plus is or is not a good of fair system cannot even be debated until then.
If you find my bluntness unpalatable, then I make no apologies whatsoever. Its time that everyone faced facts instead of pussyfooting around it in a state of denial.
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GM
Your misguided prejudice is breathtaking.
Oh and there’s a big hole in your foot.
In my day there were gangs of skinheads and punks. Things are much improved for the children of today.
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GM
I agree with your idea of a 13 plus. I have been studying post-war British politics and I read about something that could benefit some local children. I am referring to secondary-technic schools which are geared towards allowing those regarded as vocationally-gifted to flourish. It could be considered a viable option considering that there are substantial numbers of local students who would favour taking a practical, rather than theoretical, approach to learning and are looking to enter a variety of trades on the island.
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GM
“100% safe” for the “overclass”?
What do you think has exacerbated this ‘them-and-us’ situation?
Education? But that’s “100% safe”, so it’s not that. What else then, GM? Please expound on your theory that there are more “feral” children DESPITE the systems in place.
Isn’t it you that needs to take stock and admit that the system that has been in place is causing the systemic failure you are so self-satisfied to have identified?
If you want to be a big man and address the “underclass” problem, then realise why there is a problem.
Removing selection at eleven years old does not mean the demise of grammar- or college-like standards. Those standards are achieved by a shared dedication. It seems that you wish not to impart your knowledge of how to be dedicated to an “underclass” and you wish the division in dedication to grow wider in order to back up your view that there is a growing “underclass”.
You don’t want change because you are smug.
IWV, basically anything you don’t understand is “commie”, yeah?
Unless IWV stands for Interracial Wives Viewer, then I suppose you mean island wide voting? And you would support it, otherwise the satire is way too deep to interpret.
You’re a social democrat, then.
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Spartacus
“Misguided prejudice”?
Remind me – which schools did most of the skinheads and punks attend in your day? It wasn’t the Colleges or the Grammar – their breaches of strict uniform / hair codes would have seen them suspended.
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Ed
Yes – you’ve got it.
CR (Arnald)
I don’t accept for one moment that the Education system is the cause of the social issues. I blame the home environment entirely. Parents who just don’t I’ve a damn about what their kids get up to. The high schools see the effect of this, but are not the cause.
I do want change, but I disagree entirely with you about how to achieve it. I maintain that we should be investing heavily in the high schools and addressing the disruption issue, What possible issues can you have with that?
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Spartacus
In your day at Ladies College there were skinheads and punks. That would be in the early 1960′s then
Is your experience of what was happening fifty years ago the basis of all your weird arguments?
Mind you it’s good to keep the mind active as you approach your old age pension
PS. Any thoughts on Ed’s posts describing what is actually happening in the classroom TODAY? There seems to be evidence of disruption … and there is a lot of it !
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Island Wide Voting
Very funny! :-)
I’m sure back in your day at Grammar there was no disruption eh? Especially not from you!
I’ve responded to ED and hope you will give him the benefit of your experience too as he seems to be fantasising about what Guernsey schools should or could be like. All the evidence, and there’s a lot of it, suggests that Ed is a unique and very unusual young man.
Perhaps he should have been given an opportunity to go to a school for the gifted in the UK but I am absolutely certain he would have been no better off at Elizabeth College than at the schools he has attended.
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Sparts
I agree re Ed being rather unique amongst modern youth
Nice too that his posts are much more interesting since he has realised that there is no need to try to impress with his former heteroclite style of writing!
My advice to Ed? … just stay on course for the next couple of years keeping your university target in sight.Make sure your grades will get into a good one rather than one of liar Blair’s plastic universities which were introduced as a political ploy to keep the unemployment levels down
Sparty. Total speculation of course but I am equally certain that Ed would have had a much smoother ride at Elizabeth College
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IWV
I don’t think I would have done significantly better at Elizabeth College- I might have known some Latin names of animals, but not much more.
I wouldn’t say I was exceptionally gifted, I just have an interest in several topics of which the content is quite heavy and I like doing research. Most of what I say is a product of acquired knowledge, rather than innate intelligence.
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Interesting debate going on here. I do not intend allowing my children to attend a Comprehensive school where they can “dilute” the behaviour of the disruptive elements.
Closing down the grammar school will reduce social mobility and increase division in our society.
This is because the wealthy will all go to the Colleges and the rest will have a worse education at the state schools. Hence there will be limited choice.
I also predict that increased demand for the Colleges following removal of 11 plus will push fees up, so middle income strivers will not be able to send heir kids there only he upper income earners.
Again this will lead to segregation in our society.
At the moment kids of all backgrounds and financial situations mix freely at the Colleges and the Grammar school.
Disaster in the name of political ideology.
ND
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In Finland they decided to abolish private education for this reason. It undermines efforts towards equality in education.
The vast majority of children in Guernsey do not currently get a choice of school.
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Ah, ND, there’s that word, “strivers”, and in the form of “middle income strivers”.
Because striving is solely the preserve of the ‘middle-’ or ‘higher-income’ parents?
You would prefer a system that already condemns of low-income=low-prospects society we have in Guernsey.
The days, you know – the good old days, those brilliant, halcyon days, when every nipper had that slight chance of getting into Sir’s Big-School For Strivers, what’s your term? “Social mobility”, of course that disappears when eleven year olds are not segregated like “strivers” and “shirkers”. Isn’t it?
The fact there is so much disruption, or a few ery disruptive individuals, is a product of the system. Not the product of people trying to find a better way so that the problem can be resolved.
Frankly, it’s disgusting that Guernsey has this education gap at all. It shows how wrong people are, that have, and are making the big decisions.
Employing second rate drones in the finance industry will not advance social responsibilty. But what else is there for Guernsey youngsters with no means, representation or backing? Can’t afford university in the UK, no evolving high street economy.
The biggest social-mobility shift for our children under this system is what happens at eleven years old. That’s not a shift an upward shift, just one that doesn’t get you the “underclass” caste.
Disgusting.
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CR
Interesting to see that Arnald has re-appeared.
“
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No I am Spartacus. wtf GM?
So previous generations weren’t subject to your “100% safe” system.
They appeared by magic?
I’ve noticed my reply is to the wrong thread, but since they’re the same…
Please then, oh textual guru, explain your reasoning of “an underclass” and people like you. People like you, GM, that are causing hardship on those you despise, the “underclass” because you are “100% safe”. Explain why you are “overclass”. Then repeat it to every person you meet. Why are you so much better?
You believe your neighbours may be of an “underclass”. That about sums up every argument I’ve wasted my time scrolling my browser.
Are you balding?
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Arnald
If you had bothered to read my posts then you’d know that your post of 9.53pm is utter boll*x. You make some very bizarre comments in there, but on reflection no more bizarre than Arnald’s normal posts.
I am simply stating the reality that Guernsey does have an “underclass”, which manifests itself in the high schools, and that this is a key factor in any review of our education system. The vision document from Education didn’t of course dare mention it, but its a big part of the elephant in the room relating to disruption in the classroom.
Others may deem it “not politically correct” to mention it. I don’t believe in tiptoeing around the elephant.
Am I balding? Er…no – not quite yet.
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GM you are disgusting.
I’m very pleased that you are being so honest to reveal the true ugliness of your character.
Spartacus
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Spartacus
What on earth is “disgusting” about being honest and telling it as it is?
Far better than being dishonest, naive and therefore totally unrealistic.
Go on – keep pretending that it doesn’t exist. Just like huge pension deficits, a state of denial achieves nothing.
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GM
The problem is your vivid imagination. You don’t tell it as it is you tell it as you imagine it. And you have a rather warped mind.
I know what goes on in the High schools you don’t and I can assure you that you are exaggerating.
I had another chat today to check whether my understanding of the situation is accurate but I was told the few who are trouble makers are usually the spoilt snobby ones, and yes there are some of those in High schools. Bet you’re surprised about that.
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Spartacus
I have spoken to 5 friends of mine who are current teachers at the 3 high schools and they tell me that you are most emphatically wrong. It is not my “warped mind” at all – it is you with your blinkers on, unwilling to accept the reality. The vast majority, not all, of the disruptive elements are apparently from the island’s housing estates. Why would those teachers say that if it wasnt true?
You seem to be bigoted against “spoilt snobby” students. Don’t you mean whose parents have a bit more money? And you have the gall to call me “bigoted”? Pot, kettle, black.
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GM
Lies. No way do you have 5 teachers who are friends, if you had even one teacher friend from the High schools you would not be so ignorant.
The comment about the snobby ones was a direct quote not my words.
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ND, probably the best post on this thread, and the one that makes most sense.
Arnald, “low income strivers”will be excluded from sending their children to the colleges, just as “middle income strivers”will be if fees rise (and the 11+ is abolished).
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My only daughter has recently sat the two 11plus papers, they were a combination of verbal and non-verbal papers which I believe favour those children who enjoy or have been tutored in puzzle solving. My main issue with the process is that these tests exist.
The schools already make an assessment of each child giving an indication of which school each is best suited/expected to gain a place. There are those who are predicted a high school place, those capable of coping at grammar or college but the school isn’t sure they will be in the top 25% (borderline) and those predicted to be in the top 25%.
My daughter was predicted to be the the last category but her scores in the test mean that she will be going to a high school. I fear that she, as well as many other capable students, won’t be going to the school their teachers feel most appropriate and others not expected to gain places do. i’m also concerned about the associated long term effects this will have on all students some feeling under pressure and others not being challenged. Some parents have commented on how well children have done in their tests and that they managed to get through to grammar and then these children nosedived under the stress.
I wonder now, having seen the results, what value there actually is in these attainment assessments or whether these will be used in the future instead of tests – if streaming in its current form is to continue. I note on earlier posts that disruptive students remain in the high schools but (may be incorrectly) I thought that the link centre was in place to help these students and their teachers. I know that whilst at the secondary school I attended, albeit some years ago, I never experienced any problems.
I am happy that my daughter will be going to the high school but I am probably biased as my experience of the grammar school through sixth form and my sister’s horrendous experience of bullying were so dreadful that I wouldn’t wish the grammar school we attended upon anyone.
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Parent
The Link Centre caters for the extremely disruptive pupils. There are many what some would say are ‘moderately disruptive’, but they probably aren’t deemed that much of an issue and so remain within the school. However, they still make the teacher’s job difficult and mar the quality of the classroom environment with their idiocy. This, unfortunately, still happens at the Sixth Form.
If your daughter is studious- which I think is very likely after what you have said- she should be able to tolerate the disruption at the High School that she is going to attend. It can be a really difficult time, but I came out okay! I left St Sampson’s High School last June.
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